When will the ME improve?

This is not a rant by any means, its just me bringing out the anger inside me.

The current match engine is very flawed in my opinion. Yes it has improved from the last versions but it still feels very robotic and not modern football friendly.

As many people who go to the tactics forum know, I am a fan of barcelona and constantly try to recreate the way they play IRL.

However that can't be acheived with the current match engine, you might ask why and tell me "its your tactics", so let me explain.

As many people know Barcelona employ a very high pressing game IRL, their players chasing the opposition player who has the ball like a pack of hungry wolves. Last season the most fouls committed by barcelona were done by the front three!

Now this can be done in FM by employing high closing down, tight man marking on all players, hard tackling, and a higher d-line.

Yet i dont beleive that IRL messi and henry are instructed to man mark, let alone xavi,iniesta,and alves. The mechanism of winning the ball back in FM needs to be improved drastically, and if its being fixed in the next patch then all the better.

Next thing i want to address is the False forward and the 2 inside forwards that Barcelona employ IRL.

Everybody knows that Messi and Henry always cut inside and either shoot on goal or try to send a through ball to whoever is there to tap it in. This in my opinion is the most flawed part in the match engine, it simply still cannot get that wingers have become a very important component in modern football.

The fact that you have to tweak your team's width and the players crossing and through balls to make him cut in is very unrealistic IMO.

Why dont i see messi cutting in WITHOUT the ball like he does when he has the ball?

The only improvement I saw in FM this year was the playmaker role, it has drastically improved as now players can get over 100 passes a game.

But it still isn't that good, I remeber watching a match for madrid against zurich and xabi alonso had 107 passes in 30 mins!

Please share your opinions over what I just said.

Thanks.

Nobody wishes to discuss what i just posted?

160 members yet nobody thinks this is worth a discussion?

160 members yet nobody thinks this is worth a discussion?

God your an impatient devil aren't you. A lot of people are working\at school\college\university\Still sobering up from the weekend activities (me:D!) so probably havent seen your post so give them time. To answer your question though wait another week or so to see if the proposed christmas patch has any improvements in the me.

You posted it just over half an hour ago. It's the middle of the day, most people are at work/school. I think you have some good points there.

Sorry for being impatient as I forgot most of the community is in the UK and it's still early in the day for you guys.

I really dont think it will be improved upon in the next patch though, maybe the closing down and defensive problems but not the players off the ball movement.

As many people know Barcelona employ a very high pressing game IRL, their players chasing the opposition player who has the ball like a pack of hungry wolves. Last season the most fouls committed by barcelona were done by the front three!

Now this can be done in FM by employing high closing down, tight man marking on all players, hard tackling, and a higher d-line.

Yet i dont beleive that IRL messi and henry are instructed to man mark, let alone xavi,iniesta,and alves. The mechanism of winning the ball back in FM needs to be improved drastically, and if its being fixed in the next patch then all the better.

You don't have to use man marking to play a high pressing game in FM.

Everybody knows that Messi and Henry always cut inside and either shoot on goal or try to send a through ball to whoever is there to tap it in. This in my opinion is the most flawed part in the match engine, it simply still cannot get that wingers have become a very important component in modern football.

The fact that you have to tweak your team's width and the players crossing and through balls to make him cut in is very unrealistic IMO.

Use the tactics creator and set 'inside forward' instead.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

C.

You don't have to use man marking to play a high pressing game in FM.

Use the tactics creator and set 'inside forward' instead.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

C.

Mate I already know alot about tactics and have read many books, but let me ask you this.

Can pressing game in FM guarantee me 69% possession average in a match?

Or can the passing in the ME guarantee me 88% pass completion.

And with regards to messi and henry, I have set them as inside forwards but my point is that they rarely move inside without the ball.

Cheers.

No team has ever been guaranteed 69% possession, or an 88% pass completion. Asking for such is very unrealistic.

Mate I already know alot about tactics and have read many books, but let me ask you this.

Can pressing game in FM guarantee me 69% possession average in a match?

Or can the passing in the ME guarantee me 88% pass completion.

And with regards to messi and henry, I have set them as inside forwards but my point is that they rarely move inside without the ball.

Cheers.

No team has ever been guaranteed 69% possession, or an 88% pass completion. Asking for such is very unrealistic.

Exactly.

Also, pressing does not at all relate to possession percentage. Yes, it should make the opposition lose the ball more quickly, but it doesn't do anything to how long you keep the ball once your team won it.

If you want high possession and high pass completion you should go for a short passing game as long as your team isn't a bottom one in your division.

Mate I already know alot about tactics and have read many books, but let me ask you this.

Can pressing game in FM guarantee me 69% possession average in a match?

Or can the passing in the ME guarantee me 88% pass completion.

Those are extremely high figures and, well, no tactic in real life could guarantee you such statistics.

With a high pressing game, with short passing and a control methodology, I have achieved very high pass completion rates and possession percentages. Having a deep-lying playmaker can also help.

Just looking through a few of the games I've played recently... the last match I played, my team achieved 64% possession and completed 84% of passes.

You don't need to use man marking to play a high pressing game and if you want a lot of possession, then focus on bringing out your technical strengths by opting to use a 'control' strategy with short passing. Use shouts such as 'retain possession', 'take a breather' and 'pass to feet' to keep the ball. Those will all help.

And with regards to messi and henry, I have set them as inside forwards but my point is that they rarely move inside without the ball.

They will move inside without the ball like a normal winger, to make a run into the box for instance. I'm not sure why else you would want them to cut in? Cutting in is something that is done with the ball from a wide position.

I suggest using the 'inside forward' role and try increasing roaming for more fluid off the ball movement from your attacking players.

Hope that is useful.

Cheers,

C.

Also reducing your team's width might be useful then.

Well here's where i got the high statistic from

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/statistics/clubs/typestat=bpp.html

As you can see it is an average of 69%, whih is really high.

Against espanyol in teh first half barca had around 72% possession.

So how do i do this without man marking if possible on fm.

^^^

what we said

Forgot to mention ive already been doing what you guys mentioned but now another problem comes to mind.

I am struggling to score goals and usually grind out results, and also how do i get the best out of xavi and iniesta.

Thanks for all the help.

Mate I already know alot about tactics and have read many books, but let me ask you this.

Can pressing game in FM guarantee me 69% possession average in a match?

Or can the passing in the ME guarantee me 88% pass completion.

And with regards to messi and henry, I have set them as inside forwards but my point is that they rarely move inside without the ball.

Cheers.

I agree.Inside forwards are useless only because they dont cut inside without the ball.Another thing that needs fixing is to make players dribble through defenders not just circle around them.

my possession ranges mostly 55-%60 (sometimes higher ofc) with pass completion of 80%~ in my second season in the game as barca.

i play 4-2-3-1.

2 MC's(fabregas and xavi): deep lying playmaker support, AMC (iniesta) adv playmaker support, AML/AMR (ribery/messi) wingers attack, cut inside / moves into channels, ST (ibra) complete forward attack.

both my CBs are ball playing ones. my FBs are WB-attack. i play very fluid - control / attacking / overload depending on who i'm playing.

recently i played real at home, won 5-0. trust in your players, give them the confidence to control the game and they will when they're as blissfully good as barca are.

I agree.Inside forwards are useless only because they dont cut inside without the ball.Another thing that needs fixing is to make players dribble through defenders not just circle around them.

Sorry, but in real-life players can't 'dribble through defenders'. What do you expect them to do, run through a man? Of course they have to dribble round them.

I agree with you, it is hard to recreate Barcelona style at the moment. I think you raised some good questions which could lead to good discussion. all you got in response is that you need to play with Inside Wingers (which you already do).

I think this problem is as complicated as much as FM tactical system is. there are various things why it's hard to replicate Barca's style or any other real football style. I'll try to answer some of your questions.

closing down. it's not working as it should right now, it's not as effective as it is irl. but we can expect it to improve, that's confirmed by SI guys. it's not the easiest thing to make right because it's not easy to make AI to anticipate in advance, which is the core of closing down.

as you mentioned, player movement is a problem and it is still too robotic compared to what we would like it to be. good movement is important up front, and a key component for any team that wants to play attacking football. while strikers are obviously doing fine in the game, wingers do suffer a bit more. their poor movement is surely one of the reasons for that.

as you said we don't have any control of leteral movement. we can't instruct Iniesta to move centrally and Keita to start his attacking runs from wider areas. that's one very basic instruction missing in the game.

posession is much more complicated because there are so many tactical instructions influencing it. almost all. maybe the biggest problem and misunderstanding is that Mentality influences passing direction and passing risk but at the same time it affects player movement and positioning on the pitch. Barca traditonally play Posessional game which in FM terms meens that they don't play Attacking, passing direction wise. they strech defences and they take their time on the ball, eventhough they pass the ball around very quickly (Tempo). but they do play Attacking movement wise. perhaps this could be solved by giving all players Hold Up Ball instructions, but I still wouldn't advice Mentality to be too attacking.

Well this is the type of football that SHOULD be implemented in the M.E that will make many people happy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQLVKD-6hYE

Nobody wishes to discuss what i just posted?

Same old, same old. Plenty of dead horses flogged and laid around all over the forum.

Hardly worth further flawed debate.

For record am happily playing neat one touch footie not terribly dissimilar to that which you linked, not sure what the fuss is.

Until we can choose our match engines like we can choose databases then nobody is ever going to be happy.

You'll never get a perfect match engine - can't be done. We see it every release and every patch - everyone loves it until they see the limitations.

At the end of the day you can't simulate real football. It's far too complicated so the best you can hope for is a match engine you enjoy.

i dont know much about the coding or the simulation of results on a large scale for the recent ME and how they can be separated but has it ever been thought that maybe the actual ME isn't the problem its the representation of it? take for instance the 3D ME vs the 2D vs Commentary only, as SI implement more ways to view the match we'll always feel like this or that is impossible but really just the way it is shown graphically is poor rather than the result?

I dont know honestly just an opinion i've had as i've gone thru this game and been frustrated as well when my players occasionally leave the ball that's a half yard away go thru to the opposition among other things

I agree.Inside forwards are useless only because they dont cut inside without the ball.Another thing that needs fixing is to make players dribble through defenders not just circle around them.

Oh my goodness gracious, please Si why explain why they changed it from fm09 where good dribblers would run past defenders

Not slow down and half run around the outside

It makes it obvious that their cross is gonna get blocked (inevitably)

Sorry for being impatient as I forgot most of the community is in the UK and it's still early in the day for you guys.

I really dont think it will be improved upon in the next patch though, maybe the closing down and defensive problems but not the players off the ball movement.

Well, I am from Singapore!

Sorry, but in real-life players can't 'dribble through defenders'. What do you expect them to do, run through a man? Of course they have to dribble round them.

Well i didnt mean absolutely trough them,they must dribble around them but not run huge circles around the pitch.

I'm kinda sick of seeing players slow down when they get towards the end of the side and eventually try a lazy cross that becomes a corner.

Well its NOT the graphical shape of the ME, proof of that is that the players' movement and decision making is quite poor.

When you watch the video i posted, I meant to show you that the movement of the players is an integral part of football.

SFraser once said that Free Role or roaming from position is the most important component of attacking football.

Now if you want your players to constantly look for space, this isn't possible on FM!

Even witha free role, players tend to roam most of the times when they have the ball, not off the ball.

Sometimes you find daniel alves in the box, or xavi, or sometimes even pique.

All what I ask of SI to focus on next year is the following:

1.Player movement, both on AND off the ball.

2.Players making better decisions regarding passing and finishing.

3.No superkeepers!

4.Better width control instructions, for example telling keita to start from the center but when he has the ball he drifts out wide and vice versa.

Thats what I think will improve the ME drastically in my opinion.

yeah sometimes i found that strikers really have no idea what they're doing. Once a striker received a pass in the middle just outside the box, then even though the space was there, he immediately crossed it to the sideline first time.

I was just sitting there thinking '...wth?'

As for the keepers, I think they have way too much surface area. They seem like a square wall rather than a person with arms and legs.

I'm guessing SI will have a patch at the end of January but that won't sort all the problem I guess, and SI might be releasing the last patch near the summer (that's what SI have done in recent versions)

yeah sometimes i found that strikers really have no idea what they're doing. Once a striker received a pass in the middle just outside the box, then even though the space was there, he immediately crossed it to the sideline first time.

I was just sitting there thinking '...wth?'

As for the keepers, I think they have way too much surface area. They seem like a square wall rather than a person with arms and legs.

Well, the keepers of our teams are less squared and more human. But it's simply a physics/math issue, which seems to be the classes that SI members skipped.

Well to prove even more that this game needs huge improving, I got the following statistics from barcelona's match against sevilla.

Shots (on Goal) 27(12) 4(0)

Fouls 11 13

Corner Kicks 11 2

Offsides 3 2

Time of Possession 72% 28%

Yellow Cards 2 4

Red Cards 0 0

Saves 0 9

what exactly do you find curious?

i admit they are skewed to one side, but id say barcelona would be the better team of the two.

The problem is that the same match engine is used for the games of Barcelona and the games of Blue Square South... And I don't really think that the ME should be made for the standards of Barcelona. The modern football you talk about is only played by just a few teams in the world but FM is not only about them. If you were able to recreate the way Barcelona play, maybe it would be also possible to do that with Kettering Town and that would be stupid.

No tactic GUARANTEES 72% possession. Barcelona are a great side, Guardiola is a great manager. Espanyol chose the wrong path tactically.

If you don't know how to set your tactics up to get the best out of your players - you're not Guardiola. So don't expect the same results as Guardiola. IRL, very very few could build a team like his. In FM, a fair few can, but not everyone.

You clearly have misconceptions about the match engine (eg your idea that you have to put your forwards on man marking to get them to press) so, whilst the ME is flawed, the bigger problem is that you don't seem to know your way around it all that well.

You can get lots of possession. There just isn't a default "play like Barcelona" set-up in the tactics creator.

I don't use the TC, but from what I remember of it, it gives out too many default TTB and TLS to be as efficient with possession( my current formation has only 1 player max with TTB often) , and saves time-wasting and low-tempo for the defensive formations, when you want to couple that with the high line and high pressing of the attacking settings.

But if you made the formation from scratch, it's definitely possible to get possession football.

Why dont people read the whole thing first before replying?

I mentioned that the ME needs improving, off the ball movement needs improving and their intelligence.

Secondly, it's SEVILLA not ESPANYOL.

Third, I know im no guardiola, but no one is on these forums.

Also you say NO tactic GUARANTEES 72% possession, yet the champions league statistics I posted clearly show that barcelona averaged around 69% possession in the group stages, and as Internazionale learnded the hard way it's difficult to beat a team that way.

Also, will someone from SI tell me when will off the ball movement improve, the next patch, or the next version of the game ?

I just hope it gets updated, as when I watch barcelona play, and then come to play the game I love that is FM, I lose all interest in playing.

BAT169.

Barcelona Sevilla FC

Shots (on Goal) 27(12) 4(0)

Fouls 11 13

Corner Kicks 11 2

Offsides 3 2

Time of Possession 72% 28%

Yellow Cards 2 4

Red Cards 0 0

Saves 0 9

Valladolid Barcelona

Shots (on Goal) 11(5) 14(8)

Fouls 13 17

Corner Kicks 5 5

Offsides 10 3

Time of Possession 33% 67%

Yellow Cards 2 2

Red Cards 0 0

Saves 5 5

With these statistics, I think there are 2 things that need to be improved in the ME:

1.The closing down and the pressing game.

2.The players' off the ball movement.

Nice post.

I think the ME is getting there and I have gotta give SI some credit for that.

I play as Arsenal and try to play like they do IRL which is of course just like Barcelona, only i try to use more width and get balls into the box. In 10.1 I had a fantastic tactic going scoring all types of goals using a quick short passing game using Fabregas to run the show and wow, it was great. 10.2 has changed that, and I wont bore you about it, but in short wide play has been ruined, at least for my tactics.

I managed to get Ribery for my 2nd season and he played very much like he does IRL and scored 26 goals, which is by far the most ive had from a wide player on FM10, but i always felt it was down to how good he is rather than my tactics. I would love players to make better runs, cut inside more and support the forward and at times not be so selfish as too many times they get into good positions and shoot right at the keeper with no hope of scoring.

I just don't think players make enough intelligent runs to allow the kind of football Arsenal or Barca play possible (at least for the most part ) with the current ME.

Pray that SI have decided to act on the width issue for patch 10.3 otherwise you will always struggle with this.

Yes but those statistics I posted are IRL not FM, so I decided to post them to counter whoever said you cant average 68-69 % possession.

Please SI improve the ME.

Yes but those statistics I posted are IRL not FM, so I decided to post them to counter whoever said you cant average 68-69 % possession.

Please SI improve the ME.

They said you can't guarentee that amount of possession.

Well, with the way the current season is going IRL, I think its pretty much 95% guaranteed to happen, then what will SI's excuse be ?

The reason im posting this is because i am so angry when I watch barcelona play IRL, then try to recreate it on FM, but nothing works.

Well, with the way the current season is going IRL, I think its pretty much 95% guaranteed to happen, then what will SI's excuse be ?

The reason im posting this is because i am so angry when I watch barcelona play IRL, then try to recreate it on FM, but nothing works.

Maybe the anomaly is you.

Yes but those statistics I posted are IRL not FM, so I decided to post them to counter whoever said you cant average 68-69 % possession.

Please SI improve the ME.

Yes those stats are taken from RL, so why would you (unless you are Pep Guardiola chilling by playing a little FM) think that you can exactly replicate what they do IRL. Weird.

Anyway if you want your team to play like Barca, get yourself over to the tactic forum and check out justifieds Play Like Pep thread. All your answers are within.

Case closed, take care.

Hey, there was no need for that kind of language.

I can tell you its not me, as the people on fm-britian forums have taken a few of my ideas into consideration and implemented them in the new appendix.

However, I can understand if your team on FM is performing on the level you want and you're satisfied, probably because you're either managing in the lower leagues, or a top team and your happy as long as you're winning, not with the way your team is playing.

The problem is with the ME, not me as a player.

I also helped justified adjust his tactic, go read the whole thread or search my posts please.

Hey, there was no need for that kind of language.

:confused:

Hey, there was no need for that kind of language.

I can tell you its not me, as the people on fm-britian forums have taken a few of my ideas into consideration and implemented them in the new appendix.

However, I can understand if your team on FM is performing on the level you want and you're satisfied, probably because you're either managing in the lower leagues, or a top team and your happy as long as you're winning, not with the way your team is playing.

The problem is with the ME, not me as a player.

Who are you responding to here, I don't see any one using the wrong language. Do you go by another name on fm-britain, because I don't see you credited in the new appendix? And seriously check out justifieds thread.

3.No superkeepers

was good until this

majed20 on fm-britain , and i was responding to jonny.

And i helped in justified's tactic.