What could FM learn from FIFA/PES?

The point of this thread is not to diss on the weakness of FM, but instead to constructively discuss what FM can learn from other games, like FIFA or PES, especially in terms of ME.

-ME - Besides the very obvious issue of graphics, which I'm not sure should be a priority for SI, there are other things that if FM got closer to FIFA or PES would improve the realism of the game, the main one being, IMO, physics. The ball bounces about a lot more in those games (especially in PES, the one I know better of the two). This would make passing, dribbling, trapping a lot more realistic in FM if implemented. It shouldn't be as easy it as it is at times in FM to string 5 or 6 first touch passes in midfield between championship players!

Also, a smaller issue I have with the matches in FM is the lack of 1-2 combinations. These are fairly common in PES and would add more diversity to the attacking in FM.

Player movement is certainly an area where FM can improve, but in this case I believe it is miles ahead of the competition.

-Tactics - FM is miles ahead of those games in the tactics department, but not without some weaknesses. PES allows you an irrealistic control over the position of a player in the field, but in doing so allows you a leeway over lateral movement of players sadly lacking in FM.

I believe that most other areas of these games relevant for a managing game are miles behind FM, but would be interested in hearing other peoples views on this, and even, dare I say, things that CM does better than FM, so that by raising discussion we could help SI improve even more our beloved game!

It could learn how not to commentate on football from PES.

I think Wee Aja is on to something here, I think there's a lot more to learn about what not to do then what to emulate from those games.

Personal I don't think PES or FIFA posssess anything above FM aside from graphics, I haven't played FIFA 10, but I have 09 and AI and tactics wise its not bad. I've always been a big PES fan but the AI in the game is atrocious compared to FM. I think SI should consider licensing out their game engine code to KONAMI and make a little extra money on the side, the graphics in PES are incredible but half of the players are running around like headless chickens.

Your second point is very poor in a management sim you shouldn't have complete control over a players movement, thats up to the individual player's ability to make the right decisions, in terms of tactics there is nothing fm can learn from those two games.

Although i do agree that the player movement and ball physics could be slighlty improved in the ME, its no real area of importance. PES and FIFA are different types of games altogether to FM and should be treated as such i personally don't think SI should ever compare FM to either of those games or ever look to them for ideas in improvements.

if anything its Fifa looking at SI

No offense to the OP, but imo, a football management simulator, and a Football Simulator, are two completely different entities. I don't really think FM could ever take anything on board form FIFA / PES. Your argument of physics, is one I completely disagree with, also. SI have stated on many occasions, that what happens in the 3D, or even 2D pitches, isn't always EXACTLY what is representing the ME. As for the 1-2's, they are more common in FIFA / PES, because they're human controlled. Its really not even a point to be argued.

As for Tactics, I mean, are you serious? FM is so far advanced tactically, that I actually think you're on a wind up. The freedom of the player positioning in the PES game, is unrealistic. In FM, yes, you're limited (I would like to see a LITTLE more freedom) - However, with the correct tactical instructions for your player, you could direct him to do what you could never imagine a PES player doing.

There are many improvements that could be made to FM. But its the same for FIFA and PES. ITs not like they're bug free, or issue free games. I can't really believe you're trying to compare them......

Go easy on him, Nep

To be fair, its a bit of a silly comparison. Its like me saying, Ferrari could really learn something from Skoda, just because they both make cars. Its crazy

Did you see anything in my original post even hinting that PES/FIFA have superior MEs to FM???

Some say that it isn't important to improve physics... I have to disagree strongly with that. Some of us, including myself, take joy from actually watching the matches in FM, not just looking at the key highlights, and that experience would be greatly improved if the ME is as realistic as possible.

You should have been able to read that I also stated that the control over initial positioning offered in PES irrealistic, my point was more that, at least I believe, that the control over lateral movement in FM is lacking, at least since side arrows were removed.

In regards to the 1-2s, watch a full match, count how many times a player passes and immediately runs forward trying to receive the pass (instead of just robotically do whatever his position/forward runs calls him to do) and then tell me if it resembles in any way what happens in a real match.

People here have to chill... I did in no way offend the game of FM, or say that it sucked or that it was worse than those games... That doesn't mean that FM is perfect and cannot be improved. SI people are grownups and don't need an army of fans defending them of each critical analysis done on this board.

FM could learn how to completely mess up a half decent game and then totally deny that it is an issue if they look at FIFA 10

FM could learn nothing of FIFA, FIFA is one glitched and unfinished game.

I don't know about fufa, I ignored it mainly because every time I try a new one it makes me sick how dumb it feels for many reasons. On the other hand I've been a huge fan of pes or we for a long time, since the first pes and we 5 I think. The game use to be a master peace and it actually is again with the 2010 release. Again it's a simulation not the arcade. The PES physics engine is work of art by itself and yes the FM could learn a lot. The most obvious thing are the player attributes and how they effect gameplay. Attributes are much more clear and sensible. You don't get free kick master without a good shot power or shot technique or both... Pes could surely learn a lot from FM too. It would be a dream come true to have those 2 games merged in one but it'll never happen off course.

Lance, just ignore the useless posters that don't know anything, don't get the point, don't even try to, don't contribute nothing nowhere and just post to annoy someone and to have the feeling of existing, don't be like me.

Has anyone here actually tried setting up two AI teams against eachother in FIFA10? It's actually quite interesting to watch, and because everything happens in real time it looks a lot more "realistic" than the 3D in FM.

I think player movement, ball physics, defending and lack of leteral movement are indeed one of the FM's biggest problems in ME right now. this sentence sums it up nicely for me:

In regards to the 1-2s, watch a full match, count how many times a player passes and immediately runs forward/into open space trying to receive the pass (instead of just robotically do whatever his position/forward runs calls him to do)

not just in 1-2's situation, player movement, wingers' being the most obvious one, is just not up to scratch right now:

- lack of leteral control and movement for wingers,

- lack of quick runs into open space, which is football basics,

- lack of quality movement as opposed to attacking positioning.

also I really agree with this:

It shouldn't be as easy it as it is at times in FM to string 5 or 6 first touch passes in midfield between championship players!

The point of this thread is not to diss on the weakness of FM, but instead to constructively discuss what FM can learn from other games, like FIFA or PES, especially in terms of ME.

I'm not sure how you can compare an ME that you directly influence because you control 11 players, with an ME that you have limited control over because you just tell 11 players what to do and hope they do it.

-ME - Besides the very obvious issue of graphics, which I'm not sure should be a priority for SI, there are other things that if FM got closer to FIFA or PES would improve the realism of the game, the main one being, IMO, physics. The ball bounces about a lot more in those games (especially in PES, the one I know better of the two). This would make passing, dribbling, trapping a lot more realistic in FM if implemented.

I don't quite get the logic of accepting graphical limitations and then questioning representation :confused: Isn't it safe to assume that bounces etc, or "physics" lol, does take place and does make it difficult for players, it's just poorly represented because of a very tame 3D view.

It shouldn't be as easy it as it is at times in FM to string 5 or 6 first touch passes in midfield between championship players!

I think 5-6 first touch passes is perfectly reasonable, especially if it's a byproduct of a tactic e.g. quick tempo, short passing can produce almost constant one touch football.

Also, a smaller issue I have with the matches in FM is the lack of 1-2 combinations. These are fairly common in PES and would add more diversity to the attacking in FM.

I disagree, I think the opposite, PES etc use 1-2's all too often and it's completely unrealistic.

-Tactics - FM is miles ahead of those games in the tactics department, but not without some weaknesses. PES allows you an irrealistic control over the position of a player in the field, but in doing so allows you a leeway over lateral movement of players sadly lacking in FM.

I.e. sarrows. I agree.

From what I understand, there isn't really a comparison to be made. Like asking what Halo can learn from Space War Commander. I understand why folk may think that way, but the match graphics on FM work in a very different way to PES or Fifa.

FM's match graphics are generated retrospectively and are an interpretation of what's going on under the hood. Essentially, it's a tablecloth that looks pretty. It's strategy.

Fifa and PES react immediately to a human controling an individual player, while the teammates around that player have a very limited number of options: run forward, stay, get into space, etc. It's skill.

It isn't that SI programmer do not *know* that wingers should move laterally more often, and it isn't that the programmers don't understand things like closing down or marking. It's just that when you change one aspect of the simulation it can have a knock-on effect to literally hundreds of other areas.

So in terms of what FM can learn, I'd say all they could learn is to massively simplify the ME. But that would give us so few possible variations that it will be incredibly boring, and all you will need to do to win everything is buy the best players available and press "go". I don't buy skill games like PES and Fifa for that very reason - once you get to a certain level, even on a career game, it's hard to challenge yourself much further.

Like I said, the OP puts forward an understandable sentiment when you look at the movement on games like Fifa and PES, but the programming is different, and therefore not transferable.

You ppl do know that you can play those games without controlling players directly. There is a "coach mode" for once and you can also let to computer controlled players play the match. The other thing is that graphics has nothing to do with this. What does matter is that both games are an attempt to quantify game of football like giving precise numeric values for skills and other football factors. What happens in fm also happens in pes only in pes you can see each end every thing.

You ppl do know that you can play those games without controlling players directly. There is a "coach mode" for once and you can also let to computer controlled players play the match. The other thing is that graphics has nothing to do with this. What does matter is that both games are an attempt to quantify game of football like giving precise numeric values for skills and other football factors. What happens in fm also happens in pes only in pes you can see each end every thing.

And the reason you can ee it is better graphics and as such, more appropriate representation! :confused:

FM could learn nothing of FIFA, FIFA is one glitched and unfinished game.

Oh the Irony.

And the reason you can ee it is better graphics and as such, more appropriate representation! :confused:

Again and again and again you just don't get it. Better seeing things is not the point. The point is what goes on behind the scene.

You're right, I don't get how you know what goes on behind the scenes. Enlighten us all.

I want to know what goes on behind the scenes.

You're right, I don't get how you know what goes on behind the scenes. Enlighten us all.

LOL, what goes on behind is a simulation of football. The graphics are just the visual representation of many calculations being made. The same goes for pes, fifa and the fm now, with the 2d, 3d view. It is just the various number of textures moving around on the screen. Pes have much more of those so that's the reason you can see more things. Pes could be a text base football sim the same way fm was, if it wanted to. And of course you couldn't take the gamepad and controlled players by yourself. I know I said I'm not gonna explain stuff to you anymore but what can you do... I assume u r not getting this either.

Nope, because you haven't explained it yet. What exactly goes on behind the scenes, what are the calculations? Everyone knows about graphics and representations, not everyone knows what calculations mean what and by the way you're talking it would seem you do. Please, i'd love to hear all about it.

The only thing FM can learn about those two games is that if it stagnates (PES) the competition might just take over (FIFA), the difference is that FM is miles away from the other football management simulators.

Nope, because you haven't explained it yet. What exactly goes on behind the scenes, what are the calculations? Everyone knows about graphics and representations, not everyone knows what calculations mean what and by the way you're talking it would seem you do. Please, i'd love to hear all about it.

But you see I did explain. And you just want more, I'll give you an example of behind the scene stuff. The player is shooting the ball. He has the attribute for shooting 80/100. This means that the ball will travel for lets say 80 virtual km/h to simplify. The keeper has reflex of 70/100 meaning hell jump for it in 0.3 seconds. If he had 90 reflex he'll jump in 0.2. Then you take the virtual distance therefore the time the ball travels and you have a calculation of weather the goal is scored or not.

I assume you are still not satisfied?

No, no, i'm satisfied now. Just glad to have some hard fact in front of me and have a firm idea of how little/much you actually know

No, no, i'm satisfied now. Just glad to have some hard fact in front of me and have a firm idea of how little/much you actually know

Yeah you got me. What skill in sarcasm you have, well done...

Lets keep this on topic guys and not get personal please

I'm not getting personal FrazT, there's only so many times someone can basically be called stupid, byt someone who doesn't explain themselves, before they react.

You'll notice that the debate was healthy until certain reactions, in other threads, took place.

Also its really hard to stay on any when ppl intentionally or not constantly sabotage given topic.

Did you see anything in my original post even hinting that PES/FIFA have superior MEs to FM???

Did you see anything in my post, that relates to this exact matter? I never said those words either.

Some say that it isn't important to improve physics... I have to disagree strongly with that. Some of us, including myself, take joy from actually watching the matches in FM, not just looking at the key highlights, and that experience would be greatly improved if the ME is as realistic as possible.

You should have been able to read that I also stated that the control over initial positioning offered in PES irrealistic, my point was more that, at least I believe, that the control over lateral movement in FM is lacking, at least since side arrows were removed.

In regards to the 1-2s, watch a full match, count how many times a player passes and immediately runs forward trying to receive the pass (instead of just robotically do whatever his position/forward runs calls him to do) and then tell me if it resembles in any way what happens in a real match.

People here have to chill... I did in no way offend the game of FM, or say that it sucked or that it was worse than those games... That doesn't mean that FM is perfect and cannot be improved. SI people are grownups and don't need an army of fans defending them of each critical analysis done on this board.

What you need to understand here, is that the ME is realistic. What you're not happy about, is the graphical representation. SI have only introduced the 3D engine in FM09, and now we're in FM10 you're expecting the same graphical representation, as game that have been around for decades, that have a main focal point of game play and graphics. The lateral movement in FM is not lacking, in my opinion either. I'll just say what I said in my first post in this thread. SI have stated on numerous occasions, that the 2D and 3D engines may not always represent what the ME is doing. So in your 1-2 argument, just because you don't see it on the 3D representation, and just because you don't see players making the runs in to space in the 3D representation, doesn't mean its not happening underneath. A poster in this thread (backpackant, IIRC) - said, the FM graphics are meerely a "table cloth" for whats really going on underneath. Youneed to accept that, and accept the fact that, 2 FM versions ago, you only had a 2D pitch, where specific ball physics were completely irrelevant to the whole experience. You surely can't expect the development process of FIFA / PES style dynamics to be represented in FM in a heartbeat. Its something that will take an age to perfect, because the amount of variables involved in something like that, in an ME as intricate as FM's. You seem to be comparing FM to "real life" with regards to many things, but are waving the fact that FIFA and PES also have many, many misrepresentations of real life football too. How many times have you seen Ronaldo drill in a Free Kick from 45 yards in real life? Maybe once. Maybe. Yet in FIFA10, I could probably do it 7 out of 10 times. And then ask yourself, how many times have you seen it on FM? None. What I did there, was use a specific example to portray my point, which in this case, is more of an exception than a rule, and with the Farrows, Barrows and Sarrows being removed, you've done the exact same thing. You've picked up on 1 thing. Personally, I love the new tactics module. (I first fell in love with it in FML, and was delighted they adapted it to FM10). However, the tactical side of games like PES and FIFA are lacking in substantial volumes when compared to FM, simply because its really not the direction the game is heading in. That takes me back to my initial point, that trying to compare pretty much any aspect of the game to that of a Football Simulator, is really a non-existent argument. And before we get onto the fanboi insults, please, just stop. Yes, I love FM. And yes, I will back it to the 9's if I think a debate about it is being wrongly argued, however, I'm also fully aware that its not perfect, and have been involved in many discussions over the years with regards to the games flaws.

Ahhhh NepentheZ, such common sense is like a breath of fresh air.

The ME in PES and FIFA is flawed anyway, as things have to be biased and manipulated to get the same scorelines from a 90 minute match into a 10 minute game whilst maintaining the same speed of movement for players ball etc. The only thing that FIFA and PES have to there advantage is graphics... Which is completely unnecessary.

The ME is exactly the same for commentary only as it is for watching the full match/highlights.

It wasn't a breath of fresh air and please use paragraphs next time.

It would have made it so much easier to read. I read it and didn't learn much.

It wasn't a breath of fresh air and please use paragraphs next time.

It would have made it so much easier to read. I read it and didn't learn much.

Way to keep the thread on topic.

And for what its worth, please sort out your own grammatical errors, before dictating to others about the correct way to post.

Way to keep the thread on topic.

And for what its worth, please sort out your own grammatical errors, before dictating to others about the correct way to post.

It was a friendly suggestion since people often don't bother reading extended prose like what you posted.

The people that don't bother to read the posts that actually have a decent debate, are more often than not, the sort of people that don't really have much to contribute to the forum. I'd just like to point out, that the post wasn't intended as a knowledge base for the forumites, either. So the fact that you "didn't learn much" (Which implies that you learnt something) - really doens't bother me. I was just arguing my side of the coin. I really have no idea why you had to come in here, and make it a personal thing. IT really wouldn't make too much of a difference if I put it in paragraphs or not. Its still the same length of text, and would still take the same amount of time to read.

I like what they did with tactics in the new PES. Obviously FM is on another level but the interface is what I mean. The tactical sliders are actually explained and show a neat example with those funny coloured dots.

The people that don't bother to read the posts that actually have a decent debate, are more often than not, the sort of people that don't really have much to contribute to the forum. I'd just like to point out, that the post wasn't intended as a knowledge base for the forumites, either. So the fact that you "didn't learn much" (Which implies that you learnt something) - really doens't bother me. I was just arguing my side of the coin. I really have no idea why you had to come in here, and make it a personal thing. IT really wouldn't make too much of a difference if I put it in paragraphs or not. Its still the same length of text, and would still take the same amount of time to read.

Nobody bothers to read it because it is presented as long-winded rant a six year old would be proud of. You assume that lack of response means that everyone agrees with you. I point out that your post sucks and so you accuse me of getting personal.

Hilarious.

I like what they did with tactics in the new PES. Obviously FM is on another level but the interface is what I mean. The tactical sliders are actually explained and show a neat example with those funny coloured dots.

Yeah, retro dots, cool.

Yeah, retro dots, cool.

There's something very soothing about dots...

Maybe FIFA and PES should take a leaf from FM and have a 2D dot view as a playable option.

Nobody bothers to read it because it is presented as long-winded rant a six year old would be proud of. You assume that lack of response means that everyone agrees with you. I point out that your post sucks and so you accuse me of getting personal.

Hilarious.

No, you pointing out my "post sucks" just screams chilish response. I didn't assume anything. I didn't assume lack of response means people agree with me. I mean, I wouldn't really expect a hoard of replies 10 minutes after I posted. The fact you think the post sucks, is your opinion. And you was getting personal. For no reason. And you've still not given a valid reason for not liking my post, other than for the fact it wasn't in paragraphs. Which is pathetic. Its not a rant, either. You really should read it. Its quite clearly part of a discussion, that you're apparently not here to have, considering not even one of your posts relates to the OP in any way, shape or form. You've literally come on here to tell another member that he was wrong with his "breath of fresh air" quote, and then say that my post wasn't knowledgable. Which is fine, because it wasn't intended to be. Ultimately, you're causing an argument over something has no relevance to the OP. So before posting again, perhaps you should sit down and think about what you're typing.

I'd like to point out that Shingo 'Seabass' Takatsuka, the executive designer and author of the PES\WE series is recognized in the entire world as a maybe a greatest athority in simulating sports.

Why are being so subjective? I love both games, fm and pes equally and could never say which I prefer. You say that pes flows this and that but how much time did you play pes?

There's something very soothing about dots...

Maybe FIFA and PES should take a leaf from FM and have a 2D dot view as a playable option.

well they are more of a little boxes than dots. craaazy

You have to understand this: FIFA = worthless, PES = work of art. Fifa was actually better in last two years but this year pes recovered and came back to simulation roots and such stuff.

Why are being so subjective?

You have to understand this: FIFA = worthless, PES = work of art. Fifa was actually better in last two years but this year pes recovered and came back to simulation roots and such stuff.

You are very subjective yourself

IMO FIFA's AI is a lot better. (PS3/Xbox 360 versions ofc)

I played both games and for me FIFA was the only one that sort of forced me to have a little imagination to score.

(gettin off-topic)

Yes, that was quite subjective I see just now

Tell me something, how long did you play fifa and how long pes?

Like... 50 matches each.

Tbh I prefered PES until PES6... but I kind of switched sides since FIFA 08 (PS3 because the PC version sux)

I dont know why but in PES I can still put up some 1 man show while in FIFA its harder for me to do such stuff. (I still play both games for +- the same amount of time but )

well I must of played fifa for like a 100 matches and pes 10000 and that's no coincidence. Try new pes and You'll see my point, like I said its a simulation again.

Actually pes 6 I played the most. They've gone bad from 2007 when ps3 came out to today. FIFA is just not a football sim, it just looks like it IMO.