Why are there hidden attributes?

Surely they should all be visible?

Why can I see what a players 'composure' is but I can't see what their 'injury proneness' is?

And why can I see a players 'determination' but can't see their 'professionalism'?

Haven't we got a point now where they should all be visible?

Alex Ferguson, for example, knows how professional all of his players are, why don't I?

Consistency IRL doesn't exist in the same way, or not as visible a way, as in game, so it has to be hidden really. The same for versatility, important matches, and the like.

Personality traits, which seem to be your main complaint, are much harder to judge, and tbh I like the idea of them being hidden. However, I think personalities should be more detailed. We should be able to see a player's professionalism, ambition, etc., on a 5-bracket scale: Very Low (1-4), Low (5-7/8), Average (7/8-11), High (12-15), and Very High (16-20). At the moment, we can just see a prevailing description.

I agree that maybe a manager may not know a players injury proneness however this would become evident very quckly in training sessions and should be picked up by the coaches and physios, and highlighted to you if there was a problem.

Again a players proffessionalism would be evident at training, so coaches should pick up quickly on bad apples.

I belive it's because this creates a players personallity, and hence IRL life is not measured on a numerical scale. I feel rather than showing the numerical attributes, there should be a bigger description of players' personalities on the personal page of their profiles.

I belive it's because this creates a players personallity, and hence IRL life is not measured on a numerical scale. I feel rather than showing the numerical attributes, there should be a bigger description of players' personalities on the personal page of their profiles.

Neither are any other of the attributes in FM rated on a numerical basis IRL.

I think certain stats should be visible, like Professionalism. Things like Injury Proneness you should be able to pick up on yourself.

Another vote for making professionalism visible. At least for your own squad you are seeing them everyday in training. I don’t get why natural fitness is visible it’s the sort of thing you only get to know about over the course of a few seasons as players comeback from injuries or play a run of games in close succession.

I think these hidden attributes are ones that should be revealed slowly. If you've had a player for 5 years you probably know everything there is to know about his professionalism or whatever - but you wouldn't know after 3 months. Perhaps a range should appear to begin with (as SCIAG suggested) which would gradually reduce over time.

Neither are any other of the attributes in FM rated on a numerical basis IRL.

I think certain stats should be visible, like Professionalism. Things like Injury Proneness you should be able to pick up on yourself.

OK, I see what you mean. I don't think these should be visible for players that you have not managed though as you would not pick things like this up from purely watching games and scouting them (with the possible exception of injury proneness as you would be aware of this through their injury history).

Its basically to make the game more challenging. If you knew every rating a player had, you could (more) easily outsmart the AI. In the long term that would make the game less fun.

Its basically to make the game more challenging. If you knew every rating a player had, you could (more) easily outsmart the AI. In the long term that would make the game less fun.

But the AI actually DOES know all of these stats.

Considering the popularity of the programs that allow you to view hidden stats I question whether there should be an option to view them in game. Those that what them to remain hidden can do so, those that see no value in hiding this information can make it visible.

But the AI actually DOES know all of these stats.

But the AI is nowhere as intelligent as a human. It needs a little help to make the game more challenging and interesting.

Considering the popularity of the programs that allow you to view hidden stats I question whether there should be an option to view them in game. Those that what them to remain hidden can do so, those that see no value in hiding this information can make it visible.

Whilst I do partially agree, alot of these programs show things like CA's and PA's, which I NEVER want to see.

Whilst I do partially agree, alot of these programs show things like CA's and PA's, which I NEVER want to see.

You can edit it so you dont see them. Also, they are misleading. CA/PA refer to ALL ratings. How good a player is at any one position is determined by specific ratings.

If the argument is that some attributes should be hidden because people couldn't find them by watching games, why is sportsmanship hidden? Why is dirtiness hidden? If anything these are easier to judge by someone watching a match on the telly than determination.

Definitely injury proneness is something that an outsider could pick up too.

Professionalism is definitely something that the manager of a team would be able to tell.

But the AI is nowhere as intelligent as a human. It needs a little help to make the game more challenging and interesting.

Yes, but they can still see the major factors - CA and PA - we can't.

I'm still yet to see a valid argument not to include hidden stats.

Natural Fitness is just as ambiguous as Injury Proneness.

Same as Determination and Consistency.

In fact all us forummers probably know how inconsistent, someone like, El Hadj Diouf can be yet I bet we can't say how good his Anticipation is with any degree of certainty.

This needs to be reflected.

Yes, but they can still see the major factors - CA and PA - we can't.

I'm still yet to see a valid argument not to include hidden stats.

Natural Fitness is just as ambiguous as Injury Proneness.

Same as Determination and Consistency.

In fact all us forummers probably know how inconsistent, someone like, El Hadj Diouf can be yet I bet we can't say how good his Anticipation is with any degree of certainty.

This needs to be reflected.

You CAN see them by using 3rd party editors. Many others dont want to know as it makes the game far too easy. A good balance by SI, IMO.

I like them hidden, I think a few more should be really (mentioned above) but the line has to be drawn somewhere to make everyone happy.

Perhaps some of these attributes should be visible when the player is in your team, but not for players who you've never owned.

You can edit it so you dont see them. Also, they are misleading. CA/PA refer to ALL ratings. How good a player is at any one position is determined by specific ratings.

I know that yeah, but things like proffesionalism bear no effect on how well a player PLAYS but how he responds to certain instances. Regardless I don't want to know a players CA/PA full stop.

I know that yeah, but things like proffesionalism bear no effect on how well a player PLAYS but how he responds to certain instances. Regardless I don't want to know a players CA/PA full stop.

Edit the player columns so it doesnt show CA/PA or positional ratings.

Having hidden attributes for difficulty sake is a poor argument, why not have all the attributes hidden then and just have us figure out from watching the games? The reasoning I believe has to do with how perceptible some attributes are vs others for someone watching a real football match, and that being the reasoning, I think a reassessment of what is hidden and what isn't would improve the game.

Frankly most of the hidden attributes are only interesting for the game mechanics and evident to us players through various features in the game in much more realistic fashion than on a number scale. All I'd really want is for more of them to be mentioned in player reports. For example...

* Injury proneness is reflected in that we can view player injury history.

* Dirtiness is reflected in that we can view player yellow/red card history.

* Consistency is commented on in scout/coach reports, and we'd notice based on the player's tendency to have off games or rate low on average for someone of his calibre.

* Important matches is commented on in scout/coach reports, and we'd notice over time after fielding the player in a few big games.

* Adaptability we notice as the assistant manager suggests signing a fellow <insert nationality> or the player eventually informing us he's having a hard time settling in. Probably appropriate for it to not be scoutable; the player likely doesn't even know himself how hard/easy a time he'll have settling into a new country.

* Ambition is vague, but arguably noticeable by the player not performing well in training.

* Loyalty would only really be proven by time, it's not an "ability" per se that you could pick up on by watching the player.

* Pressure is mentioned in scout/coach reports.

* Professionalism is mentioned in the training feedback.

* Sportsmanship I presume is evident from the player's actions on the field, though I can't claim to have any examples in mind other than the obvious "plays the ball out when opponent is down injured".

* Temperament could be worth getting a word or two about in player reports.

* Controversy seems to be known by the fans as certain signings go through, so this should arguably be mentioned in player reports.

* Versatility I don't see how you'd know before trying to retrain the player, at which point the pace at which he's learning the new position reveals it.

Most of these are in other words already known to us if we pay attention. Of course, following this logic, one could make the argument that attributes like Finishing and Passing should be hidden as we can view goal-scoring histories and passing percentages, but I think it's somewhat more reasonable for a person to be able to watch a player play and place his shooting technique or work rate on a scale of 1-20, as opposed to his ambition or loyalty, not to mention things like consistency and important matches that would require quite an extended period of scouting.

Ambition or loyalty yes, dirtiness or sportsmanship no! There must be some kind of criteria of observability, and I don't believe the most correct choices are made at the present.

i think the scout reports need to show more of the hidden attributes. too often if a player has about the same in important matches and in consistency the scout report will only mention one of them. in my opinion the scout report (if scouted for a longer period of time) should say something about all of his hidden attributes. the same goes for coach reports

What is 'important matches'?

* Injury proneness is reflected in that we can view player injury history.

I've seen this indicated in physio reports too.

Frankly most of the hidden attributes are only interesting for the game mechanics and evident to us players through various features in the game in much more realistic fashion than on a number scale. All I'd really want is for more of them to be mentioned in player reports. For example...

* Injury proneness is reflected in that we can view player injury history.

* Dirtiness is reflected in that we can view player yellow/red card history.

* Consistency is commented on in scout/coach reports, and we'd notice based on the player's tendency to have off games or rate low on average for someone of his calibre.

* Important matches is commented on in scout/coach reports, and we'd notice over time after fielding the player in a few big games.

* Adaptability we notice as the assistant manager suggests signing a fellow <insert nationality> or the player eventually informing us he's having a hard time settling in. Probably appropriate for it to not be scoutable; the player likely doesn't even know himself how hard/easy a time he'll have settling into a new country.

* Ambition is vague, but arguably noticeable by the player not performing well in training.

* Loyalty would only really be proven by time, it's not an "ability" per se that you could pick up on by watching the player.

* Pressure is mentioned in scout/coach reports.

* Professionalism is mentioned in the training feedback.

* Sportsmanship I presume is evident from the player's actions on the field, though I can't claim to have any examples in mind other than the obvious "plays the ball out when opponent is down injured".

* Temperament could be worth getting a word or two about in player reports.

* Controversy seems to be known by the fans as certain signings go through, so this should arguably be mentioned in player reports.

* Versatility I don't see how you'd know before trying to retrain the player, at which point the pace at which he's learning the new position reveals it.

Most of these are in other words already known to us if we pay attention. Of course, following this logic, one could make the argument that attributes like Finishing and Passing should be hidden as we can view goal-scoring histories and passing percentages, but I think it's somewhat more reasonable for a person to be able to watch a player play and place his shooting technique or work rate on a scale of 1-20, as opposed to his ambition or loyalty, not to mention things like consistency and important matches that would require quite an extended period of scouting.

That's all well and good, but real life managers don't have to go to these measures to find out a players injury proneness or temperament, it's there for all to see when they watch MOTD or attend matches. They don't ave to go through yellow/red card histories or go through injury histories, a majority of it is common knowledge, reported on tv continually and discussed by the world. I don't watch Italian, Brazilian or Spanish football, but I know Ronaldo (the Brazilian) is injury prone, I don't watch German football, but I know Schweinsteiger and Khan have terrible attitude problems at times.

Of course, it's slightly different at a lower league level, but, imo, all of your answers have us jumping through hoops to find out informaiton that realistically, is readily available.

^^^ Exactly.

With Scab's view we would have to watch training sessions to see how good someones Finishing is. A youth player for example.

Giving you this information is the games way of keeping things fun rather than being a complete simulation - which would be totally impossible as it's still a game.

Thinking along these lines maybe the attributes could be linked more closely with the player's reputation. I know just now we have the attribute masking and can only find these attributes by scouting the player but will never uncover the hidden attributes.

As Elrithral says everyone knows that Ronaldo (the brazilian) is injury prone so we should know these stats however not everyone knows what his throw ins are like yet we will always be able to see this.

Not sure how it work with the ui as well but just a thought.

That's all well and good, but real life managers don't have to go to these measures to find out a players injury proneness or temperament, it's there for all to see when they watch MOTD or attend matches. They don't ave to go through yellow/red card histories or go through injury histories, a majority of it is common knowledge, reported on tv continually and discussed by the world. I don't watch Italian, Brazilian or Spanish football, but I know Ronaldo (the Brazilian) is injury prone, I don't watch German football, but I know Schweinsteiger and Khan have terrible attitude problems at times.

Of course, it's slightly different at a lower league level, but, imo, all of your answers have us jumping through hoops to find out informaiton that realistically, is readily available.

Well, high-profile examples are all well and good, but consider the bigger picture with the large majority of world players not being covered by widespread media. If injury proneness is already mentioned in physio reports for our own players I think a comment on it in scout/coach reports for others' players seems about appropriate, analogous to the backroom staff examining their history for you. This mechanic could easily work a bit differently from a proper physio assessment. I think this makes more sense for things that aren't really "abilities" but rather observations over a period of time. Also, characterizing looking at reports as jumping through hoops is probably a bit of an exaggeration, they're available for our own players at any time and scouting potential signings for this stuff seems appropriate.

Perhaps a reasonable solution would be an expansion of the attribute masking feature as dgibson9999 touched on, revealing even some of the hidden attributes once a player passes a certain reputation threshold as they'd be considered common knowledge.

Scouts tell you these things?

Well mine do anyway.

Scouts tell you these things?

Well mine do anyway.

ftw

scout players properly with half decent scouts, they give you all the info youll need related to hidden attribs, you need to scout them more than once

Well, high-profile examples are all well and good, but consider the bigger picture with the large majority of world players not being covered by widespread media. If injury proneness is already mentioned in physio reports for our own players I think a comment on it in scout/coach reports for others' players seems about appropriate, analogues to the backroom staff examining their history for you. This mechanic could easily work a bit differently from a proper physio assessment. I think this makes more sense for things that aren't really "abilities" but rather observations over a period of time. Also, characterizing looking at reports as jumping through hoops is probably a bit of an exaggeration, they're available for our own players at any time and scouting potential signings for this stuff seems appropriate.

Perhaps a reasonable solution would be an expansion of the attribute masking feature as dgibson9999 touched on, revealing even some of the hidden attributes once a player passes a certain reputation threshold as they'd be considered common knowledge.

That doesn't answer why I don't need a scout's report to see how good a South African farmer is at passing, but I do need one to find out how injury prone he is. Why make a difference between them and why not, once a report has been completed, make the attributes visible for the remainder of the career?

I think these hidden attributes are ones that should be revealed slowly. If you've had a player for 5 years you probably know everything there is to know about his professionalism or whatever - but you wouldn't know after 3 months. Perhaps a range should appear to begin with (as SCIAG suggested) which would gradually reduce over time.

This is quite a good idea but I am not sure that SI would be implementing this becuase, this would involve complex programming.

It's just an extra step to scout. Which is why I never turn on masking.

It's not like there's a chance the ratings could be different so there's no point.

All it serves is to take me more time sending scouts around - which is essentially a lot like managing a spreadsheet - not fun.

It's just an extra step to scout. Which is why I never turn on masking.

It's not like there's a chance the ratings could be different so there's no point.

All it serves is to take me more time sending scouts around - which is essentially a lot like managing a spreadsheet - not fun.

Precisely. I play one game and I know the attributes of at least 50% of the players that I will encounter, why bother turning masking on for my next save?

Surely they should all be visible?

Why can I see what a players 'composure' is but I can't see what their 'injury proneness' is?

And why can I see a players 'determination' but can't see their 'professionalism'?

Haven't we got a point now where they should all be visible?

Alex Ferguson, for example, knows how professional all of his players are, why don't I?

Show the hidden attributes and scouts will be pretty useless.

Scouts report back with details of personalities, the better the scout, the more in depth the report. Ive had my scouts tell me a player is injury prone.

The game is easy enough as it satnds, no need to make it easier imo.

This is a part of the game that adds to the realism tbf.

EDIT; Also. certain hidden attributes change over time, versatility for example. Its all about man management and some people enjoy this side of the game.

Show the hidden attributes and scouts will be pretty useless.

Scouts report back with details of personalities, the better the scout, the more in depth the report. Ive had my scouts tell me a player is injury prone.

This is a part of the game that adds to the realism tbf.

You think scouts ability to tell you about hidden attributes is more important than telling you a if a player is good enough for your team?

Tbh, I would accept your answer if scouting worked, but it's awful and has been for years and you'd be surprised how many people don't use scouts at all. Why not add a "mask hidden attributes" feature, and please everyone?

DP; FYI

You think scouts ability to tell you about hidden attributes is more important than telling you a if a player is good enough for your team?

Tbh, I would accept your answer if scouting worked, but it's awful and has been for years and you'd be surprised how many people don't use scouts at all. Why not add a "mask hidden attributes" feature, and please everyone?

DP; FYI

If people dont use scouts, thats upto them, but it makes the game a bit easy and to be honest, unrealistic.

People can make scouts as impotant as they want to.

Play with "masked attributes" and see how you'll get on without scouts.

Play with "Real players" unchecked and see how you'll get on without scouts.

So you think scouts are a waste of time? OK no problem, lets do away with them and just show every detail about the player in his profile ..... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

If people are saying that after playing a few different saves, they know all the players details anyway, then they are not putting enough diversity into there saves. Play different levels and different countries.

As for giving people the option to reveal these hidden attributes or not, I have np with that but I personally would not use it. I enjoy a realistic game and it is not realistic to know every detail of every player.

That doesn't answer why I don't need a scout's report to see how good a South African farmer is at passing, but I do need one to find out how injury prone he is. Why make a difference between them and why not, once a report has been completed, make the attributes visible for the remainder of the career?

If you play with attribute masking on you don't know the attributes of completely unknown foreign players. Once a report has been completed it is saved, so you will know what the scout said forever (although hidden/personality attributes can and do change). I believe I've already outlined what I believe make the hidden attributes different from the visible ones.

If people dont use scouts, thats upto them, but it makes the game a bit easy and to be honest, unrealistic.

People can make scouts as impotant as they want to.

Play with "masked attributes" and see how you'll get on without scouts.

Play with "Real players" unchecked and see how you'll get on without scouts.

So you think scouts are a waste of time? OK no problem, lets do away with them and just show every detail about the player in his profile ..... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

If people are saying that after playing a few different saves, they know all the players details anyway, then they are not putting enough diversity into there saves. Play different levels and different countries.

As for giving people the option to reveal these hidden attributes or not, I have np with that but I personally would not use it. I enjoy a realistic game and it is not realistic to know every detail of every player.

Being flippant just makes your point even more tedious and flimsy. The rest of the post is you looking down your nose at how people play their game, so you'll understand when I take no notice of your opinion on how a game, that is supposed to be enjoyable, is played.

Scab; you do know some of the attributes. My question still stands.

Its not realistic to know every detail of every player, the question is: what details are realistic to know and which aren't. The best combination of those is not necessarily the one present in the game right now.

Its not realistic to know every detail of every player, the question is: what details are realistic to know and which aren't. The best combination of those is not necessarily the one present in the game right now.

That's a rather sweeping statement, many managers pride themselves on their footballing knowledge and it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they make it their business to know details about players. Of course that can come from scouts at times.

Btw, the "realistic" excuse doesn't wash tbh. If you want realism, lets also take transfer and contract offers away when managing in Italy and Spain, let a dof deal with that.

I don't see why anyone has a problem with this, attribute masking would sort it and you can have all the, limited, realsim you want. What other people do when playing the game means nothing to you or anyone else, so why the resistence.

I agree with those defending the hidden attributes. The reason managers like Alex Ferguson has the knowledge he has about his players is because he has worked with them for years and years. It's why he is as good a manager as he is. No-one knows everything there is to know about a player on the first day of the job. If you want to know all there is to know about a player, feel free to use scouting software, but don't come here saying that this is realistic!

Elrithral: You might notice from my previous posts that I believe that more attributes should be visible than the number there are right now, so in a sense I am on your side on this. That doesn't necessarily mean that I think that everything should be seen at the click of a bottom, with the most obvious example being PA, but also things like consistency (which I am not sure if it should even be an attribute!) or important matches.

My point is that there seems to be no clear criteria at the moment defining what can be seen and what can't, besides that this is the way the game has been for a long time... It doesn't mean it can't be changed though... some of you must remember that at some point penalties was a hidden attribute! Or going all the way back to CM1, Goalscoring was hidden back then!!

How do you think ferguson knows these hidden attributes about his players? you don't think it's because he has them on a spreadsheet? No, he finds them out when he sees them play, he finds them out when he or his scouts go to the matches in which the fella plays, he finds them out when they are in his team. Why does everyone want to be spoon fed the info?

Making hidden attributes visible in any way shape or form would just make the whole game more a select team, press holiday and collect rewards at the end of the season rather than a simulation of football management.

The obvious difference in our opinions monkeywool is that you view FM as a 'simulation of football management' and I see it as a game that allows me to manage a football club. I'd rather have all the underlying mechanics visible so I can make informed decisions, hiding things in an artificial attempt at realism is of no value to me.

scouts and coaches who follow a player through time should be able to tell many of the hidden attributes which i myself don't have time to look deeply into. why should i follow a players consistency when i have a scout sent out to do that job? the same goes for important matches and pressure (i don't like BOTH those attributes together to be honest. i think it is more than enough with one of them + composure. plus i find the fact that important matches cannot be improved as ridiculous. and si researchers has not taken this into full account as most youngsters that start the game don't have a high important matches stat)

obviously some things like PA should def be hidden and i actually think it is unrealistic that a scout can tell a players potential. (sometimes you have a massive gap between PA and CA, yet all the scouts in the top clubs knows how well this player is going to be. that is normally not realistic, especially for older players) i don't think a scout should be able to tell a players PA, but he can tell a players current attributes of which the following is most vital to judgig PA: age, determination, workrate, professionalism, technique and maybe even intelligence (decisions?) which i think should tell a lot about a players PA. this may not be implemented the same way in todays FM, but i think that is the more realistic approach.

I agree with those defending the hidden attributes. The reason managers like Alex Ferguson has the knowledge he has about his players is because he has worked with them for years and years. It's why he is as good a manager as he is. No-one knows everything there is to know about a player on the first day of the job. If you want to know all there is to know about a player, feel free to use scouting software, but don't come here saying that this is realistic!

How do you think ferguson knows these hidden attributes about his players? you don't think it's because he has them on a spreadsheet? No, he finds them out when he sees them play, he finds them out when he or his scouts go to the matches in which the fella plays, he finds them out when they are in his team. Why does everyone want to be spoon fed the info?

Making hidden attributes visible in any way shape or form would just make the whole game more a select team, press holiday and collect rewards at the end of the season rather than a simulation of football management.

I don't think either of you have actually read this thread.