The Adem Ljajic situation in FM (worth a read I reckon)

After this weeks events in regards to Adem Ljajic, in which I believe and I'm sure alot of United fans believe that we had already agreed to sign the player and the contract was sorted, but we're now cashing in on a "a money back gurantee" clause. Should this situation be included back into FM?

What I propose is you can sign a player from a foreign country and due to the fact you don't believe he will obtain a work permit or don't want to disrupt his development by moving him to a new country suddenly, that there should be an option in negotiations for players an immediate loan striaght back clause and then when activating this, you can include a get out clause perhaps similar to the buy out clauses which you can activate should the deal not look as appealing as it once did (the Ljajic official excuse) or the clubs finances are in danger (the probable truth)

This situation is a one off and I can understand that people might not think its necessary but the loan straight back deal would be a fantastic option and is something is seen in football quite alot I reckon

As a united fan I can think of two such examples such as Ljajic going striaght back to partizan after we "signed him" (the original story was we signed him last year) and then Diouf, who signed in the summer but will stay on loan till January

In FM 06 IIRC I remember a first option deal for clubs, this would be a welcome feature again to simulate "the offiicial" story with the club, which means you bid an acceoptable amount for a player and you then have the option to complete the deal at a determined date

After this weeks events in regards to Adem Ljajic, in which I believe and I'm sure alot of United fans believe that we had already agreed to sign the player and the contract was sorted, but we're now cashing in on a "a money back gurantee" clause. Should this situation be included back into FM?

What I propose is you can sign a player from a foreign country and due to the fact you don't believe he will obtain a work permit or don't want to disrupt his development by moving him to a new country suddenly, that there should be an option in negotiations for players an immediate loan striaght back clause and then when activating this, you can include a get out clause perhaps similar to the buy out clauses which you can activate should the deal not look as appealing as it once did (the Ljajic official excuse) or the clubs finances are in danger (the probable truth)

This situation is a one off and I can understand that people might not think its necessary but the loan straight back deal would be a fantastic option and is something is seen in football quite alot I reckon

As a united fan I can think of two such examples such as Ljajic going striaght back to partizan after we "signed him" (the original story was we signed him last year) and then Diouf, who signed in the summer but will stay on loan till January

In FM 06 IIRC I remember a first option deal for clubs, this would be a welcome feature again to simulate "the offiicial" story with the club, which means you bid an acceoptable amount for a player and you then have the option to complete the deal at a determined date

Not a bad idea mate

I do want a 'buy and immediately loan back' clause.

Me too. I'd love to have something like this. All too often I've signed a player for the future who won't get into the first team, tried to send him to an affiliate, he won't go, offered him out on loan, no takers. So he's stuck playing reserve team football.

The loan back straight away option would be great, better than the delay transfer till the end of season option. It'd be great.

Also, I think the loan back to club would be a much better method rather than sending them to affiliates. Why sign a 17-18 year old from Serbia and then send him to some league 1 side in England or another country. It means he has to move around twice when he could just settle and could prepare for the switch to the new country.

I do want a 'buy and immediately loan back' clause.

You do have the "Transfer date: End of season"-option which in effect is the same.

The loan back straight away option would be great, better than the delay transfer till the end of season option. It'd be great.

What would be the difference?

You do have the "Transfer date: End of season"-option which in effect is the same.

What would be the difference?

would help with homegrown status etc.

Plus if you had the loan back to club you could recall the player at anytime if you have a sever injury crisis and your convinced he would help the team out!

I do admit, that the loan back to club and end of season transfer option are quite similar but the loan back to club would be a much better method!

Wouldnt mind the buy and immediately loan back. but dont really the like of the get out option. had this in the older CM's, and I misused it to sign a player with a year left on his contract with him moving at the end of the season. Then with his 6 months left of this contract, where u can sign him for the end of his contract, I cancelled the deal and signed him free for the end of his contract. Can call that for cheating.

The buy and loan back would be a really useful feature and could possibly make FM 2011 I reckon

As for the get out clause, don't remember that in the game before, although pre fm the only game I played was CM3...Entertained for so long without the need of new features every year!

Anyway, I see the cause for concern there, and an easy fix...If that is the case then a simple way to get around that would be that if you opt to use the get out clause, then the player will dislike you or the club...or both. Chances are the player won't sign if he hates you and the club, and I reckon it's a fairbet that Ljajic will never play for United in future...especially with SAF there. It has the potential to work and be realistic and be a useful feature...Granted I reckon the First option would be a much better solution!

You do have the "Transfer date: End of season"-option which in effect is the same.

What would be the difference?

Personally I find some clubs have been reluctant to let players leave 'at the end of the season' instead of immediately. Plus you could have the option of how long you want the player to stay at the club, either for the rest of the season or until the end of the season following, or two seasons, especially if it's a young player, like 16/17.

Plus as was mentioned it'd help with HG status and you could recall him if needed.

You know how you have to confirm a transfer after the player agrees to a contract? Well when we start a transfer discussion, we should have the option to put an additional clause in (like % of future transfer is a clause): Loan back or loan out. So when we put a bid in and this bid is accepted, we are then able to have more transfer options despite him not being our player - and one of them could be "Offer to clubs on loan", which takes you to the usual transfer screen but only loans allowed. You could also target your feeder clubs or the selling club.

I like the idea.

would help with homegrown status etc.

It wouldn't. If he is loaned out then he is not training at your club so it makes no difference.

Ljajic was loaned was loaned immediately back to Partizan because non-EU players can't move to play in England until they're 18.

It wouldn't. If he is loaned out then he is not training at your club so it makes no difference.

As I understand the Home Grown rules as long as he is owned by the club it still counts towards Home Grown status - even if he is playing football in another country. He just needs to be registered with the club.

This has my vote!

This is becoming more and more popular, it gives the smaller club the player for a season while allows the big club to buy the player before his price skyrockets!

As I understand the Home Grown rules as long as he is owned by the club it still counts towards Home Grown status - even if he is playing football in another country. He just needs to be registered with the club.

I am fairly certain that isn't the case. From what I understand it is based on where the player trains and not on which club owns his registration.

A better example of this would be Kyle Walker. He left Sheffield Utd to join Everton in the summer only to move straight back on loan, this was not because of rules (Non EU - Under 18's) as Kyle is English.

It would be a good feature, although, it's similar to the end of season option.

Without trying to sound to negative, I'd rather SI concentrated on fixing the existing bugs in the transfer system before implementing something like this.

In a real world scenario there are very complex situations which can arise in the transfer market and simulating it realistically is not easy. It's all very well to take cases like the Ljajic or Tevez transfers and say hey, let's get that in the game, but it would be extremely difficult to do so in such a way that the AI would deal with these scenarios convincingly as they arise randomly. Look at the mess with co-ownership of players in Italian leagues for example. I think it is something that should not be rushed into the game. The coding involved is notoriously difficult for this kind of thing.

I'd support adding this feature for the next version of FM. This is always an option irl and it would help with the HG status. The player would also benefit from playing for another season. Players usually don't do as well when they are "looking forward to moving club" or "resigning to leaving club" as when they are loaned.

This is more like when he is about to sign, they pressed "cancel". Only difference is that they already bought him, as they said year ago, and he was on loan. So it will be "must have" situation like this to be possible in FM. One more thing about this, we also need loan on a year (what happened here), because if I remember, we could loan player till the end of season, which would be 6 months if we are talking about January transfers.

It would be fine for the player and easy to implement the rules but very difficult to code the AI to make those calls.

For something like the Ljajic situation, the AI would have to be in a constant state of monitoring the clubs's finances, the player's ability, and the player's eligibility for a work permit (depending on whose version is right) and react in a believable manner after initiating such a contract. This would be not be easy to simulate due to the inherent difficulties in AI programming.

It's more important that we can do this, not AI.

And I would imagine that this isn't so difficult to AI either.

It's more important that we can do this, not AI.

And I would imagine that this isn't so difficult to AI either.

Without the AI code in place, how could the club know if the deal makes sense? That would be a recipe for disaster and SI would never consider such a thing.

The AI would have to be coded and I can assure you it would be extremely difficult. As I mentioned earlier, look at the mess the AI got themselves into with co-ownership of players. These things are far from straightforward.

I am fairly certain that isn't the case. From what I understand it is based on where the player trains and not on which club owns his registration.

Here is a BBC Sport article on the Home Grown players rule as it will be adopted by the premier league: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/8255784.stm

It states that "To qualify as home grown, a player will have had to be registered for at least three seasons at an English or Welsh club between the ages of 16 and 21."

I believe this approach was adopted to match the Home Grown rule imposed by UEFA on their cup competitions.

Here is a BBC Sport article on the Home Grown players rule as it will be adopted by the premier league: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/8255784.stm

It states that "To qualify as home grown, a player will have had to be registered for at least three seasons at an English or Welsh club between the ages of 16 and 21."

I believe this approach was adopted to match the Home Grown rule imposed by UEFA on their cup competitions.

I don't know the full details of the PL version, but I am pretty sure that what I said was accurate for the UEFA version.

I don't know the full details of the PL version, but I am pretty sure that what I said was accurate for the UEFA version.

OK - this is taken from the Uefa Champions League regulations for the 2009/2010 season from the Uefa site: http://www.uefa.com/uefa/mediaservices/regulations/index.html

It defines what a club home grown player is:

18.10 A “club-trained player” is a player who, between the age of 15 (or the start of

the season during which he turns 15) and 21 (or the end of the season during

which he turns 21), and irrespective of his nationality and age, has been

registered with his current club for a period, continuous or not, of three entire

seasons (i.e. a period starting with the first official match of the relevant

national championship and ending with the last official match of that relevant

national championship) or of 36 months.

I can see why you would think it was dependant on training as all the news reports I saw used the term "trained locally" but according to the regulations it comes down to which club the player is registered with

I see alot of people talking about the difficulties of coding such a feature into the game...This is only a suggestion that it would appear alot of people are interested in, yes I know it wouldn't be simple to code but at the end of the day we're not coders!

SI have a year to work on these games more or less, and they are the ones responsible for coding! All I wanted was to throw an idea out there and see if it would be a plausible idea! Would be interesting to see if SI would make a response to see if this is possible!

I'd support the addition of a 'buy and immediately loan back' clause to player transfers (without the 'money back' opt out option of the Ljajic case). Co-ownership in Italy has a similar rationale- big teams invest in young players for the future but let them develop at their current club, but is overly complex imho.

With more leagues getting home grown rules, I see this option as becoming increasingly popular (even though it does somewhat defeat the purpose of the homegrown player rule, since they are essentially being 'grown' (ie, trained) by feeder clubs, but registered by the owning parent team). On the other hand, it wouldn't be helpful to restrict teams ability to loan out developing players for fear of interrupting their 'home grown' term at the club.

m1234566778 - He joined Tottenham, not Everton. He was linked with Everton, and both of us had bids accepted for him, but he chose Spurs. (The reason was stated at the time, but I can't remember it.)

Liverpool did similar with Antony Le Tallec and Florent Sinama Pongolle I believe. It would be a fantastic option to have.

The option to buy and leave on loan for a set period would be great, as would the opportunity to cancel the transfer, but there's a lot of messy AI involved here.

the Ljajic deal wasent a simple buy/loan back, United paid a nominal fee to have the first option to buy in january '10, with a set fee of 9-10m, you can take the united line of work permit/not good enough, or the press line of united cant afford the gamble of the fee

on the loan back option, its technically already coded in the game for italian clubs, co-ownership

m1234566778 - He joined Tottenham, not Everton. He was linked with Everton, and both of us had bids accepted for him, but he chose Spurs. (The reason was stated at the time, but I can't remember it.)

My bad, I knew it was one of those clubs.

If you weren't sure, Google/Wikipedia would have told you in 10 seconds.

Misodoctakleidist, you might be right IRL, but in game wise, as long as a player is owned by you you can loan him out (even send him to your feeder club) for three years and he will become home grown (assuming he's between 15-21).

Edit: I don't think you're right in IRL either after reading previous posts! Hehe...

I asked for this idea a while back along with the option of being able to do a double deal (sign to players for a combined fee) similar to the Tossic & Ljaiic deal

If you weren't sure, Google/Wikipedia would have told you in 10 seconds.

Burn!

Bit harsh maybe, but funny nonetheless.

I didn't even consider that possibility and in fairness that would be a great addition also!

Thinking about it, there is often the case that a deal will go through that contains a combined fee for 2 players!

The Da Silvas twins

Tosic & Ljajic

Kyle Walker & Kyle McNaughton

Tevez & Mascherano was a similar arrangment if I remember!

How hard would this be to include really...I reckon combined fees for multiple players would require a new transfer model, but the transfer system has been needed improved for years in all fairness!

west ham's tevez and mascherano deal was illegal...ask sheff utd

They are very rarely actually combined deals. I mean, look at Tosic/Ljajic. Tosic is at United, even though Ljajic didn't join them. It wasn't a combined fee. The Da Silvas were poached, weren't they? Walker and Naughton are the best example you've provided, but even then, I bet they weren't a combined fee.

I think "buy then loan back" deals are equally rare. Ljajic wasn't loaned back, his transfer was simply agreed in principle, as we've seen.

I along with alot of United fans believe Ljajic was actually purchased in January 2008...Regardless of all the first option nonsense that has came out lately

But the loan back deal anyhow is used alot more in Football nowadays. Mame Biram Diouf and Kyle Walker are two examples this year and a few years back I remember Spurs wished to sign Paul Robinson tried to sign him in January and then Leeds were to reloan him back but the EPL blocked the move as it was against current rules!

I along with alot of United fans believe Ljajic was actually purchased in January 2008...Regardless of all the first option nonsense that has came out lately

he wasent purchased in 2008, or united would be selling him , not deciding not to take up their option to buy

One of the reports stated that United decided to use a get out clause. The news at the time stated that there was no first option in place, that Ljajic had signed a 4 year deal and would remain in Serbia untill January 2010

Only now has there been reports that "oh we only had first option and we decided against it"....You don't parade a player around Old Trafford and make constant comments like SAF done just last month about how happy United were with his development, and can't wait for the options he would add to the team!

A player who you are only monitoring and are considering taking up a first option deal on does not get paraded with a shirt, glowing praise in press reports nor invited to manutd.com asking him about how excited he is to be a United player (considering the "truth" is he wasn't a United player)

Anyway, this is not what the topic is about, so lets just draw away from the whole Ljajic "conspiracy theories"

I am fairly certain that isn't the case. From what I understand it is based on where the player trains and not on which club owns his registration.

You are correct, of course. If this wasn't the case there would be no point in sending a non-EU player on loan to a Belgian club, as he wouldn't gain Belgian nationality.

It is to do with where you reside, so if you are on loan to a club, you will start gaining/earning? (not sure either is the correct word!) that countries nationality.

would help with homegrown status etc.

Would it? I'm not sure. Iirc irl it matters were a player actually plays, so players loaned out don't become home-grown for that period.

Would it? I'm not sure. Iirc irl it matters were a player actually plays, so players loaned out don't become home-grown for that period.

It only matters where the player is registered as referenced further up

It only matters where the player is registered as referenced further up

But surely he would be registered to the team he is loaned to?

No because I believe it's due to the fact he's regestered to his parent club and only regestered to his loan club on a temporary basis...

Carlos Vela is an example. Loaned out to a spanish side for years so as to get a w/p but is still classafied as Arsenal Homegrown