What determines the player's ability to reach PA?

Okay, so can anyone help me with this, how many factors are involved and how relatively important does each factor play in the way a player can reach his full(or close to) potential?

I know that there are some mental attributes, like determination, but then there's a lot of different opinions of which attributes goes next. Some claim professionalism, other's ambition and I've even seen some talk about temperament(as if in patience). Can someone explain this?

What about mentoring, is it a must? Training facilities and good coaches is a given, but how much do they play in importance compared to regular football in e.g. a second division in Germany, France or whatever on a loan?

I got one regen who jumped from 140 CA to 165 CA within 6 months and who has a PA of 194, even if he has mediocre mental stats. He wasn't a regular in Tottenham and now got sold to Juve. He isn't a regular there either but his CA keeps improving. And then there's a guy with good mental stats and a PA around 185(I use FMScout to get this thing nailed and as 'scientific' as I can), get's quite regular football in Man Utd and doesn't improve nearly as much. So yeah, how does this thing work?

There was a brilliant thread created for FM09 where the guy done some research and found that Determination, Work Rate and Professionalism played a key part in a players CA development.

Can't find the thread though...

Apart from his attributes as above the following are important:

Age- a player at 25 is not going to improve as quickly as a 20 year old

Gap bewtween CA and PA- if the gap is too large, the player wont make his PA and a very large % of them dont.

Training facilities

Training schedules

Coach abilities

Playing time at the top level

Mentoring by the right player

Apart from his attributes as above the following are important:

Age- a player at 25 is not going to improve as quickly as a 20 year old

Gap bewtween CA and PA- if the gap is too large, the player wont make his PA and a very large % of them dont.

Training facilities

Training schedules

Coach abilities

Playing time at the top level

Mentoring by the right player

Thanks! Can someone elaborate how much time he needs at the top-level and where that line is drawn? Is it enough to play in a big league or does he also need to be at a big club?

How large can this 'gap' be between PA and CA without being disruptive?

And how about those attributes, now work rate is added in too. Can someone give a clear and definitive answer on that?

Cheers

I think it's not only important to give a player first team match experience but good performances contribute to a player's development as well.

The stats that effects the speed of a players development is determination, professionalism and ambition. Work rate will also be a factor. But I always look for ambitious and professional players who also have a high determination to tutor my youngsters.

There is a lot of info about this in the Tactics & Training forum.

I think it's not only important to give a player first team match experience but good performances contribute to a player's development as well.

I agree. If a player plays a ton of matches, but performs crap, he'll struggle to get better.

Coach abilities

Are you absolutely sure about this one? Because iirc coach abilities only affect the number of players they can train. That's the way it was in 09. Was it changed in 10?

I'd be most interested in this because I'd be able to use the FM Real Time Editor to mass-edit all players in the game to have the perfect stats for good training. This may significantly up the regen quality if repeated every year.

FrazT pretty much sums it up, although a player's professionalism and ambition (hidden mental traits) are also important factors.

There was a brilliant thread created for FM09 where the guy done some research and found that Determination, Work Rate and Professionalism played a key part in a players CA development.

Can't find the thread though...

Is it this thread?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=111311

Is it this thread?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=111311

thats the one

Are you absolutely sure about this one? Because iirc coach abilities only affect the number of players they can train. That's the way it was in 09. Was it changed in 10?

I was always under the impression that coaches affect if and how quickly a player can reach his potential.

I was always under the impression that coaches affect if and how quickly a player can reach his potential.

Coaches affect training levels (the number of stars) and training levels affect development, I guess...

From reading about some tests people in the training forum have run, it seems like professionalism followed by a combination of ambition and work rate are the most important in determining how quickly the player develops. Coaches have virtually no effect other than they may be responsible for shaping the players attributes in a more favourable way.

Is it this thread?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=111311

Well spotted Mr Smith

From reading about some tests people in the training forum have run, it seems like professionalism followed by a combination of ambition and work rate are the most important in determining how quickly the player develops. Coaches have virtually no effect other than they may be responsible for shaping the players attributes in a more favourable way.

Anyone can verify?

Anyone can verify?

If you read this

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=111311

It'll give you some insight, unless you mean the Coaches having little effect?

Coaches affect training levels (the number of stars) and training levels affect development, I guess...

I thought so too. But in 09 that stars only affect the number of player they can train with the maximum level of your training facility.

Maybe this was changed in 10. But I don't think so.

Playing time.

Professionalism.

Ambition.

Workrate.

Determination.

Quality of Opposition.

In order of importance.

SFraser,

I know professionalism, ambition, and determination can be mentored. Can workrate be mentored too?

Is there a difference in which the attributes are more easily mentored? It seems like determination is most easily gained, followed by ambition and professionalism? I have seldom seem workrate increase much, that's why I asked the previous question.

Playing time / quality of opposition - means players can still improve even in the reserves and U18's?

Coaches and training facilities offer no advantage in a player's development?

Sorry for the questions. I've a few things to get off my mind and the training expert happens to pop by.

Playing time / quality of opposition - means players can still improve even in the reserves and U18's?

Yes, if your players are crap enough I have Areola and Afobe playing for my Arsenal U18 in the first season and they have improved alot and havent set foot in my reserves yet. They are playing great too.

Coaches and training facilities offer no advantage in a player's development?

In short, no. SFraser probably has a more intellect answer to that

If coaches do not affect a players developement, then why are they in the game?

Its just dumb to sugguest that coaches play no part.... Ofcourse they do.

My example would be Jonjo Shelvey. I have a Charlton save in which he did not develop to fast and I played him regular for two seasons (One in league one and one in the championship) but in my West ham save his stats went up fast after I made him my first purchase.

The facillities and coaches were much better at West Ham and he only made 5(8) apperances in the first team in his first season. He was marked as "Play for reserves till match fit" so Im not sure how many reserve games he made, but it wouldnt be too many.

One thing to remember about stats is that no matter how much effort you put into raising an individual stat, like first touch for example, that individual stat will never go above the cap which is decided by the AI.

So personally, I dont mess with the training schedule. Ive used TT's training schedule before and some players stats actually went down drastically.

This also proves that training affects developement. What would happen if you had no coaches to do that training?

I believe that some players stats will improve more with good coaches/facilities and some wont. Some improvements will be obvious and some wont. Thats how it is in real life too.

If you put a young highly rated player in your first team squad and dont play him for a full season, even in the reserves, his stats will still go up (Slowly). IMHO, thats because of training.

Some people think the most important stat a coach can have would be the coaching atributes, but they are usless without the mental stats, Discipline, Detmination and Motivation or DDM for short. Check out this thread,,,,, http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=158035 , in particular, the post by celebritykiller, which is the relevant one to FM10.

The best coaches have high DDM and DDM plays an important role in developing players.

(Got problems with discipline in your team? Check out your coachs discipline levels)

On a side note......... There seems to be a lot of emphasis on PA/CA on the forums. But Ive found that players with a PA/CA of 150/150 are sometimes actually better players than those with 160/160 or higher. Thats because the spread of stats is better, they are more suited to your tactics, they have better hidden personality type stats or you actually man manage them better.

The best example I have of this is a full back called Antunes who came with me from league one to premiership (In 4 seasons) and was very consistent with a rating over 7 in almost every game in the prem... Despite a poor-ish PA/CA for that level.

Also, every save is different and players with non fixed PA (-10, -9, -8 ETC), will actually have a differnet fixed PA each save and will therefore develop differently.

If people used the FM Genie Scout, they may be suprised to see how low some of their more consistent performers are actually rated in terms of PA/CA.

NB: I used Genie Scout on the afore mentioned Jonjo Shelvey in my Chalton and West Ham saves and his PA was difeernt by only 6 points so he should have developed more or less the same on both saves if coaching was not a factor.

Just my oppion anyway, GL all

If coaches do not affect a players developement, then why are they in the game?

Its just dumb to sugguest that coaches play no part.... Ofcourse they do.

In my opinion, development = CA increase. Facilities only contributes to about 5 or perhaps 10 percent. The rest is achieved during playing time. The main job of the coaches is to distribute that increase of CA points into stats and the speed of this job is determined by the star rating.

One thing to remember about stats is that no matter how much effort you put into raising an individual stat, like first touch for example, that individual stat will never go above the cap which is decided by the AI.

Where did you find this out? I was under the impression that every stat could in theory reach 20 if you trained a category hard enough, long enough.

This also proves that training affects developement. What would happen if you had no coaches to do that training? I believe that some players stats will improve more with good coaches/facilities and some wont. Some improvements will be obvious and some wont. Thats how it is in real life too.

If you had no coaches you would have had players with a lot of left over CA points. They would be forced to learn by themselves and it would be a slow learning process.

If you put a young highly rated player in your first team squad and dont play him for a full season, even in the reserves, his stats will still go up (Slowly). IMHO, thats because of training.

Id guess a couple of CA points, which isnt worth mentioning in my opinion

The influence of training in regards to CA development is so minimal that I dont think its worth mentioning. Coaches dont contribute to CA development at all.

In regards to your Shelvey example I think he was too good for League One, became too good for the Championship when he was in League One and therefore you didnt notice any improvements. But, when you got him at West Ham in the first season he got some really good match experience and he improved significantly better.

Reply @ Thompe

I found out about the cap on individual stats when I downloaded the Genie Scout last week.

I downloaded the Scout after reading a few interesting posts in the good player guide, I decided to check for myself.

You cannot use the scout to change anything in your games like you can with certain editing tools, it is designed to show you the CA/PA of all the players in your save games.

Load a save game into the Genie Scout and search for a player. When you click the players name you get a pop up that shows the players current CA/PA and stats in that save game.

There is a check box that when checked will show you how far the player can develop. Not all players can reach their PA. When checked, this option will also show you how far an individual stat can increase. For example, Joe Bloggs has plenty of room to improve and his first touch is currently 12. If you check the box it shows that his First touch can improve to 14. It will not go beyound 14, no matter what you try. How quickly it goes to 14 depends on many factors and I beleive coaching is one of those factors.

This is a part of FM I dont like. I think all stats should be able to max out by careful planning of training schedules but if you work to improve a players work rate for example, this should be to the detriment of another stat.... Meaning the player could never go beyond his PA but you can improve him to suit your team and it's tactics.

You said the following ......

"The influence of training in regards to CA development is so minimal that I dont think its worth mentioning. Coaches dont contribute to CA development at all."

Where did you find this out? (The bold bit).

If it is true, coachs in FM are pointless, which I just cant agree with..... SI aint that dumb.

The Genie part; Have tested this ingame? It doesnt seem right. If you have Joe Bloggs on intensive ball control training Im sure he would increase hes first touch beyond 14. If he didnt, I would be surprised. Assuming he is young and can still improve.

--

I believe I have read it in two threads in the Training Forum, but still coaches are not pointless. Like I said, their job is to distribute the CA increase a player gets through playing games into increase in a stat such as passing, dribbling etc. The star rating determines the speed of this job.

Now this bit is just pure guessing but it seems feesable. If you have a player who is training just as much (Same workload) in the attacking and defending category and your star rating for those categories are 5 and 1, the player in question would increase mostly in the skills that are in the attacking category as he learns faster in that category due to star rating.

That is why you need coaches.

If coaches do not affect a players developement, then why are they in the game?

Its just dumb to sugguest that coaches play no part.... Ofcourse they do.

My example would be Jonjo Shelvey. I have a Charlton save in which he did not develop to fast and I played him regular for two seasons (One in league one and one in the championship) but in my West ham save his stats went up fast after I made him my first purchase.

The facillities and coaches were much better at West Ham and he only made 5(8) apperances in the first team in his first season. He was marked as "Play for reserves till match fit" so Im not sure how many reserve games he made, but it wouldnt be too many.

One thing to remember about stats is that no matter how much effort you put into raising an individual stat, like first touch for example, that individual stat will never go above the cap which is decided by the AI.

So personally, I dont mess with the training schedule. Ive used TT's training schedule before and some players stats actually went down drastically.

This also proves that training affects developement. What would happen if you had no coaches to do that training?

I believe that some players stats will improve more with good coaches/facilities and some wont. Some improvements will be obvious and some wont. Thats how it is in real life too.

If you put a young highly rated player in your first team squad and dont play him for a full season, even in the reserves, his stats will still go up (Slowly). IMHO, thats because of training.

Some people think the most important stat a coach can have would be the coaching atributes, but they are usless without the mental stats, Discipline, Detmination and Motivation or DDM for short. Check out this thread,,,,, http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=158035 , in particular, the post by celebritykiller, which is the relevant one to FM10.

The best coaches have high DDM and DDM plays an important role in developing players.

(Got problems with discipline in your team? Check out your coachs discipline levels)

On a side note......... There seems to be a lot of emphasis on PA/CA on the forums. But Ive found that players with a PA/CA of 150/150 are sometimes actually better players than those with 160/160 or higher. Thats because the spread of stats is better, they are more suited to your tactics, they have better hidden personality type stats or you actually man manage them better.

The best example I have of this is a full back called Antunes who came with me from league one to premiership (In 4 seasons) and was very consistent with a rating over 7 in almost every game in the prem... Despite a poor-ish PA/CA for that level.

Also, every save is different and players with non fixed PA (-10, -9, -8 ETC), will actually have a differnet fixed PA each save and will therefore develop differently.

If people used the FM Genie Scout, they may be suprised to see how low some of their more consistent performers are actually rated in terms of PA/CA.

NB: I used Genie Scout on the afore mentioned Jonjo Shelvey in my Chalton and West Ham saves and his PA was difeernt by only 6 points so he should have developed more or less the same on both saves if coaching was not a factor.

Just my oppion anyway, GL all

In my opinion, development = CA increase. Facilities only contributes to about 5 or perhaps 10 percent. The rest is achieved during playing time. The main job of the coaches is to distribute that increase of CA points into stats and the speed of this job is determined by the star rating.

I can assure you that in 09 coaching abilities only determined the number of players they can train. Your training facilities did it for them. I'll try to find that thread for 09. There were similar reactions to this. Many people thought coaches should affect developement much more. I don't know about 10. But so far I have very bad coaches and 20 training facilities and young are developing very quick. I can't be absolutely certain but I think they haven't touched the coaching aspect of the game.

Reply @ Thompe

I found out about the cap on individual stats when I downloaded the Genie Scout last week.

I downloaded the Scout after reading a few interesting posts in the good player guide, I decided to check for myself.

That feature is very inaccurate. It doesn't take many things into account. Take that as rough indicator. There is no cap on individual stats except the 200 CA cap as long as players have the PA, youth, training, and mental traits.

I believe I have read it in two threads in the Training Forum, but still coaches are not pointless. Like I said, their job is to distribute the CA increase a player gets through playing games into increase in a stat such as passing, dribbling etc. The star rating determines the speed of this job.

Now this bit is just pure guessing but it seems feesable. If you have a player who is training just as much (Same workload) in the attacking and defending category and your star rating for those categories are 5 and 1, the player in question would increase mostly in the skills that are in the attacking category as he learns faster in that category due to star rating.

That is why you need coaches.

As long as every workload in every training category is light; a 1 star training and a 5 star training makes no difference and star rating determines how many players can be trained with a light workload (in 09, probably in 10 too).

My advice: Get cheap coaches to get the workloads to light.

I think this is the thread you guys are referring to from 09....

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=111311

Ive read it, I understand it, but I disagree with some of it.

Its all just oppinions and tests by FM fans. Not one post from any devlopers ETC.

And it does not explain how to get the best out of a player, it just shows what aspects affect development. (Coaching being one of them)

The standard of coachs may not affect the speed at which a player develops overall. But IMO it will affect which individual stat reaches its cap first.

Example... Joe Bloggs is at a club with poor ball control coaches so his first touch will take two years to go from 12 to 14, where as this will happen faster if the ball control coachs are better.

The post I gave links to say that certain aspects of the game will improve a players CA faster.... It does not show where or how each individual stat increases.

If Joe Bloggs CA improves by 30 points in a season because he has the correct aspects in place.... That does not mean he would definately have improved his first touch. This is where the quality of coachs come into play. If all coachs are 5 star in the respective departments, the spread of improvement to stats should be fairly equal.

Dunno if I explained that right.

It's this one :

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=62706

Example... Joe Bloggs is at a club with poor ball control coaches so his first touch will take two years to go from 12 to 14, where as this will happen faster if the ball control coachs are better.

Coach abilities have no such affect. afaik.

Rice2cu; Its that one, and the "A closer look at training"-thread.

Lordarod, there is not point getting quality coaches? The stats of coaches dont matter? Its quantity, not quality? Wierd system to be honest ;P

Rice2cu; Its that one, and the "A closer look at training"-thread.

Lordarod, there is not point getting quality coaches? The stats of coaches dont matter? Its quantity, not quality? Wierd system to be honest ;P

I know . Read the thread I linked. Explains most things.

None of the info in either thread has been confirmed by any developer.

At least the one I linked to has some testing involved and not just oppinions.

It says that coaching does not affect the speed of development but it does affect the spread of stats.

What I was trying to say is that the better quality coaches will develop a players individual stats faster but not above their cap. That individual stat will increase with a lesser coach but other stats will improve first if the coachs are better in those departments.

With top quality coaches in all departments, a players development will be more evenly spread.

If a players CA improves by 30 points in a season, and his ball control coach is rubbish, that improvement will be unballanced in favour of the other coachs departments, attacking, defendin etc.

The other personality trait factors are more important than coaching standards, but coaching standards are a factor.

Until such time as this is stated as wrong by a developer, I will continue to seek out the best coaches I can.

None of the info in either thread has been confirmed by any developer.

At least the one I linked to has some testing involved and not just oppinions.

It says that coaching does not affect the speed of development but it does affect the spread of stats.

Until such time as this is stated as wrong by a developer, I will continue to seek out the best coaches I can.

The one I linked to has testings too and on the first page that is. :confused:

Training schedules affect the spread of developement not coach abilities. Seeking the best coaches will not harm you, it's your game. Having bad coaches have never harmed me too so do what you want.

N

If a players CA improves by 30 points in a season, and his ball control coach is rubbish, that improvement will be unballanced in favour of the other coachs departments, attacking, defendin etc.

If this is true it means having training with 2 stars in ball control and 2 stars in attacking is the same as having 5 stars for both because they are both balanced in either situation.

The one I linked to has testings too and on the first page that is. :confused:

Training schedules affect the spread of developement not coach abilities. Seeking the best coaches will not harm you, it's your game. Having bad coaches have never harmed me too so do what you want.

If this is true it means having training with 2 stars in ball control and 2 stars in attacking is the same as having 5 stars for both because they are both balanced in either situation.

You linked me to a post that linked to posts with testing..... I linked you directly to a test.

I aint got time to read everything on the forum so didnt check the links there , sorry mate.

Who knows if bad coachs have affected your games? You will never know if a player may have developed faster if you had better coaches because you cannot recreate the same enviroment twice in FM (Or thats how its sposed to be anyway) due to the non-fixed CA/PA thing.

Having 2 stars attacking and ball control is very different from having 5 in each. Yes, the balance of stat distribution is the same but the speed at which those attribute develop is different... please note that as Ive said previously, the speed of which these develop depends on many more aspects than coaching standards.... so results may not be obvious.

If you read the thread you linked to, you will see its all oppinion and even that is evenly split. I tend to believe what SI put in the manuals.... If what they say in there is wrong, there is NO NEED for coaches in the game and they are open to lawsuits for trade discription violations

No where on these forums or in the manuals have SI stated anything that confirms coachs have no affect on development but Im gonna take some time to look through the test links in that thread. Maybe Ill find something to change my oppinion.

I don't understand why we don't have one of the developers just giving us a quick summary.

I don't understand why we don't have one of the developers just giving us a quick summary.

We have had an official response from a MoD and tech support guy (FrazT), look at the third post on this thread. It clearly states "Coach Abilities".

I know hes not SI but I think thats the best we can hope for.

You linked me to a post that linked to posts with testing..... I linked you directly to a test.

I aint got time to read everything on the forum so didnt check the links there , sorry mate.

Big deal, in the end there are tests on that thread besides there is a direct test on page 2 :confused:

Who knows if bad coachs have affected your games? You will never know if a player may have developed faster if you had better coaches because you cannot recreate the same enviroment twice in FM (Or thats how its sposed to be anyway) due to the non-fixed CA/PA thing.

Same applies to you. But unlike you (probably) I played 08, 07, 06 with excellent coaches; I played 09 and 10 with bad coaches and it never harmed me.

Having 2 stars attacking and ball control is very different from having 5 in each.

Iirc SI said somewhere that a 3 star training is not very different from a 7 star training (we used to have 7 stars). So I think in this version 2 stars and 5 stars are not "very" different.

...but the speed at which those attribute develop is different...

That's what we disagree at.

If you read the thread you linked to, you will see its all oppinion.

I read it all it's not all opinion. It's opinion btw. If you read that thread you'd know there is direct testing in page 2...

If what they say in there is wrong, there is NO NEED for coaches in the game

Of course we need coaches in the game...

I'll quote Joor about a test:

"At the left we see a team of superb coaches on each category with 7 stars, the maximal training base, and on the right 3 star coaches.

The player development is almost identical. After 30 runs with 3-4 years by fmfan.ru community."

Ive played this game since before the split..... Back in the day when all the scandie players ruled.

If what your saying and what the screenies are saying is correct, there is no need for coaches.

They do not add to the speed of development and they cant force a stat about its cap so do not affect how a player turns out when he reaches his PA.

SI are lying *astards and this game is seriously flawed.

Personally, I dont believe that for one minute.

We need coaches they have other roles than CA devolopement.

tbh, SI are hardly angels.

We need coaches they have other roles than CA devolopement.

tbh, SI are hardly angels.

And they are?

see Hawshiels' posts here. It's complicated

must see #323

see Hawshiels' posts here. It's complicated

OK so if I am correct, he is saying that a coach can speed up the re-allocation of existing CA points (Meaning other stats will FALL) and he will focus the allocation of newly gained CA points into stats reflecting his specific coaching speaciality and ability.

OK... So I get a quality center forward and put him on defensive training with top notch coach and I can turn him into a center half? (If time permits)

Sorry..... Not having it. In all my years playing this game, NOT ONCE have I seen ANY player (in my games or on these forums) gaining stats in one area and loosing them in another so as to radically change that player, which is what he sugguest is possible.

It simply cannot happen because a player has a cap on EACH stat dependant upon his PA. Check the genie scout.

Its simple. A top notch coach will speed up a players development and allocation of CA points better than a poor one. Along with many other considerations ofcourse..... Players personality, Facilities, quality match time and so on.

Adjusting training schedules can re focus CA points into specific areas but if the player has maxed out on some stats in that area, they will not rise anymore and you may even see other stats fall...... Ive had this on many occaisions using Tugs training schedule and will no longer use it.

Using the sliders to alter training schedules is complicated and I prefer to leave these as default in most cases. I watch a player develop and play him or sell him dependant upon his progress. This is how it works IRL too.

Its all oppinions mate.... I prefer to trust my own experience and to trust what SI have said on the issue, untill proved otherwise.

We have had an official response from a MoD and tech support guy (FrazT), look at the third post on this thread. It clearly states "Coach Abilities".

I know hes not SI but I think thats the best we can hope for.

He has nothing to do with coding the game. :confused:

With regard to the test screenies you posted.....

This is just assumption but it is logical and possible.

Lets take a 20 year old DC and have him in two seperate games.

In game one he has top notch coachs.

In game two the coachs are rubbish.

All other conditions are EXACTLY the same.

His CA/PA is 100/180

In game one his PA/CA looks like this over 4 seasons

1) 130/180

2)160/180

3) 180/180

4) 180/180

In game two his CA/PA looks like this.

1) 120/180

2) 140/180

3) 160/180

4) 180/180

So after four seasons they are the same player..... But I know which player and which coach I would choose. This example is every bit as feaseble as the guys who posted those screenie tests. Oppinions mate, thats all.... Its just mine are based on what the gamemakers have told me.

He has nothing to do with coding the game. :confused:

Like I said.... its the best we can hope for..... Not the most active posters those SI guys.

With regard to the test screenies you posted.....

This is just assumption but it is logical and possible.

Lets take a 20 year old DC and have him in two seperate games.

In game one he has top notch coachs.

In game two the coachs are rubbish.

All other conditions are EXACTLY the same.

His CA/PA is 100/180

In game one his PA/CA looks like this over 4 seasons

1) 130/180

2)160/180

3) 180/180

4) 180/180

In game two his CA/PA looks like this.

1) 120/180

2) 140/180

3) 160/180

4) 180/180

So after four seasons they are the same player..... But I know which player and which coach I would choose. This example is every bit as feaseble as the guys who posted those screenie tests. Oppinions mate, thats all.... Its just mine are based on what the gamemakers have told me.

Try it. I'm willing to bet they won't look that way. In fact I'm very sure of it.

OK so if I am correct, he is saying that a coach can speed up the re-allocation of existing CA points (Meaning other stats will FALL) and he will focus the allocation of newly gained CA points into stats reflecting his specific coaching speaciality and ability.

OK... So I get a quality center forward and put him on defensive training with top notch coach and I can turn him into a center half? (If time permits)

Yes that's what better coaches do in FM and theoratically it's possible and happened IRL (Gallas)

Sorry..... Not having it. In all my years playing this game, NOT ONCE have I seen ANY player (in my games or on these forums) gaining stats in one area and loosing them in another so as to radically change that player, which is what he sugguest is possible.

It simply cannot happen because a player has a cap on EACH stat dependant upon his PA. Check the genie scout..

If a player maxes out his PA then recieves necessary training some of his stats will drop and others will rise I saw it many times. It's definitely possible. I told you before the only cap is 200 CA cap; there are no caps on individual stats; as long as a player has the PA, youth, training, match experience and mental traits his attributes can rise to 20. Forget GS and that feature of it it's inaccurate.

Its simple. A top notch coach will speed up a players development and allocation of CA points better than a poor one.

Not really. Not on FM I mean. Of course IRL.

Adjusting training schedules can re focus CA points into specific areas but if the player has maxed out on some stats in that area, they will not rise anymore and you may even see other stats fall...... Ive had this on many occaisions using Tugs training schedule and will no longer use it.

Sure if the stats reach 20 they won't rise anymore. :confused:

Using the sliders to alter training schedules is complicated and I prefer to leave these as default in most cases. I watch a player develop and play him or sell him dependant upon his progress. This is how it works IRL too.

Top clubs IRL use scientific training. I wouldn't say they leave things in default in FM terms. In FM though AI clubs leave training in default and they don't try to sign better coaches often. That's one of the reasons training and coaches have less impact in player developement than it has IRL. And one of the reasons why training facilities have more impact than they have IRL.

Its all oppinions mate.... I prefer to trust my own experience and to trust what SI have said on the issue, untill proved otherwise.

OK, 5 star coaches are better than 2 star coaches. The Manual is right about that but 5 star coaches and 2 star coaches have equal impact on CA developement and that is proved... (for earlier versions) and not just with the test above.

Quote a statement from SI where they say a 5 star coach will aid CA developement much more than a 2 star coach; like how a 5 star player is much better than a 2 star player.

I dont think either of us will cahnge our oppinion but it has been an enjoyable discussion.

I have experimented lately with the Genie Scout and have let my comp run overnight with me holidaying to test a few things.

In my experience, a players stats cannot and will not rise above the stat cap that is assigned to it by the AI at the start of the game. I have not seen one case where a players has gained more in an individual stat than the Genie Scout said he could.

When I say "max out" I meant max out to the stat cap,,,, not the PA.

Nothing has been proved. Some random players have done tests and shown results that can be explained as I did with my example above. For me, the jury is out untill SI say different.

As for hawshiels, hes a good read. But his ideas for FM and real life tactics/training schedules are open to debate. I wont go into detail but I have worked in the game and unfortunately for English Football.... Some of his ideas are the norm now.

As a result we produce good allrounders in abundance and quality individuals are rare.

As for FM, his oppinion proves nothing. He plays the game his way and has sucess doing so. But show me one FM player who eventually does not win the champs league.... Its not a very dificult game.

I bet you never changed training schedules before you holidayed. That's probably why GS were right because it does not take many things into account (schedules, work rate, determination, hidden traits, match experience, training facilities, age etc.) which makes it inaccurate. With training schedules you can shape the player the way you want and a player can definitely gain more than what GS says he can.

A test needs to have scientific qualities to count. You don't count as 'proved something' if you never tried otherwise.

Hawshiels? I'm not his lawyer But of course his opinions prove nothing; tests do.

Basically FM works differently from real life because it is not evolved enough to mirror it enough just yet. So it creates illusions.

Player development relies as much on first team football as it does training, I would certainly suggest a player has a fantastic chance of raising his stats and reaching his potential with a 3* coach (with regular football) but he may well do it quicker with a better coach.

And that was for 09 where we had 7 stars. So you can say with this version that a player has a fantastic chance of raising his stats and reaching his potential with a 2 star coach. If so then it means a player has a very good chance of reaching his potential with a 1 star coach (chance is lowered because players sometimes get unhappy about the level of training which will hinder their developement). He might develop quicker with better coaches because of other bonuses like how you can shape players faster (Not related to how fast CA improves). It's Neil Brock.

Would be good if we had an official SI response to this.