AI bypassing wizard?

What I've been doing to try to figure tactics out is reading my scout report then setting up my tactics accordingly, which seems sensible in theory, but I've noticed that 5 minutes into the ME the AI changes it's setup, rendering the scout report useless, and having no detailed information on the new system my chances of victory are much lower. This all lends itself to having a one size fits all tactic, but by all accounts this is a bad idea, therefore stalemate.

Is this accurate or am I missing something?

All the scout report does is tell you how they will likely line-up.

I do agree to a point though. Perhaps a more detailed/accurate report could be the way forward? Something like "team x usually plays a 4-4-2 but (scout name) has noticed that they switch to a 4-2-4 when behind and a 4-5-1 when leading"

agreed, how many real managers would completly change gameplan and style afer 5 minutes? especially if there wasn't any goals scored.

I find this ''rock, scissors, paper'' tactical battle in FM unrealistic.

Also, I've just done an experiment where I'll setup my tactics play the game look for patterns in AI behavior, then reload the same game, use different tactics and see if any patterns repeat. I've read that sometimes the AI will behave as if it has predetermined the outcome before kickoff and despite tactics there is nothing you can do. After 4 reloads of a Blackburn v Middlesbrough game I was shocked to find that in every one I was 1-0 up then they would always equalize late in the second half leaving virtually no time for another goal. I thought this was strange so to make sure it wasn't just the save I was using I loaded up an old Chelsea v Rangers game, same test similar result. This time Rangers went 1-0 up in the first 10 mins then I spent 80 mins looking for a goal, of course no goal came despite incessant pressure. Remember I'm repeating this test several times and getting remarkably similar results each time. I've heard many people saying all problems boil down to tactics but I'm now convinced something is up. I hope this is patched out because I don't think I can carry on playing knowing this is happening.

Also, I've just done an experiment where I'll setup my tactics play the game look for patterns in AI behavior, then reload the same game, use different tactics and see if any patterns repeat. I've read that sometimes the AI will behave as if it has predetermined the outcome before kickoff and despite tactics there is nothing you can do. After 4 reloads of a Blackburn v Middlesbrough game I was shocked to find that in every one I was 1-0 up then they would always equalize late in the second half leaving virtually no time for another goal. I thought this was strange so to make sure it wasn't just the save I was using I loaded up an old Chelsea v Rangers game, same test similar result. This time Rangers went 1-0 up in the first 10 mins then I spent 80 mins looking for a goal, of course no goal came despite incessant pressure. Remember I'm repeating this test several times and getting remarkably similar results each time. I've heard many people saying all problems boil down to tactics but I'm now convinced something is up. I hope this is patched out because I don't think I can carry on playing knowing this is happening.

It still wont provide accurate evidence of anything as there are variables that change all the time. These events are random so each match you replay will never be the same no matter what.

These events are random so each match you replay will never be the same no matter what.

I thought this was the case as well, but watching the matches it really does seem like nobody told the ME.

Never really thought about this. The AI manager changing approach / mentality after 5 minutes does make the scout report somewhat less effective although size of pitch, weather conditions and morale of opp players would still be important and wouldn't change.

Deep lying playmaker, when you say something is up, what exactly do you mean?

Also, I've just done an experiment where I'll setup my tactics play the game look for patterns in AI behavior, then reload the same game, use different tactics and see if any patterns repeat. I've read that sometimes the AI will behave as if it has predetermined the outcome before kickoff and despite tactics there is nothing you can do. After 4 reloads of a Blackburn v Middlesbrough game I was shocked to find that in every one I was 1-0 up then they would always equalize late in the second half leaving virtually no time for another goal. I thought this was strange so to make sure it wasn't just the save I was using I loaded up an old Chelsea v Rangers game, same test similar result. This time Rangers went 1-0 up in the first 10 mins then I spent 80 mins looking for a goal, of course no goal came despite incessant pressure. Remember I'm repeating this test several times and getting remarkably similar results each time. I've heard many people saying all problems boil down to tactics but I'm now convinced something is up. I hope this is patched out because I don't think I can carry on playing knowing this is happening.

That's weird. Whenever I've done a similar test I get remarkably different results each time. Are you changing tactics throughout the game too, or just keeping it the same? If it's the same all the way through, the AI will of course try his best to beat you and change tactics to do so.

Deep lying playmaker, when you say something is up, what exactly do you mean?

What I mean is this;

The buttons in my tactics screen don't appear to be attached to anything portrayed in the ME, add to this my suspicion that some matches or events in them are predetermined makes it very difficult to trust what I'm seeing in the matches. I'm not saying this is definitive but it is prevalent enough to raise my suspicion's.

What I mean is this;

The buttons in my tactics screen don't appear to be attached to anything portrayed in the ME, add to this my suspicion that some matches or events in them are predetermined makes it very difficult to trust what I'm seeing in the matches. I'm not saying this is definitive but it is prevalent enough to raise my suspicion's.

Almost all AI teams are trying to exploit through middle, with hard tackling, high closing, forward runs for everyone (except GK) and super high defensive line(equal to the midfield line somehow).Occasionally they will try to Overload.But in general it's almost all out attack or all out defense for 95% of the cases.

Human players can't receive ball without AI player being already on his back lot of times. I would love if someone can explain me how to do that with my players with success rate of 80+% (as AI has), considering that closing down is broken.

So , yeah , i do believe that there is different set of rules for AI implemented in game.

mlp071 I would love to know how you can make the call you are making with so much confidence. Isn't the AI using the tactics creator, the same as the human player, without any further tweaking? It gets the same as what we get is what I understand.

mlp071 I would love to know how you can make the call you are making with so much confidence. Isn't the AI using the tactics creator, the same as the human player, without any further tweaking? It gets the same as what we get is what I understand.

Playing this game for over 10 years and always watching matches on at least extended and trying to figure out as many details as i can about this game could be good enough to be confident in something. In addition to that as software tester(not my first trade though) i tend to experiment a lot to see which way AI would behave.And if anything else fails , you can always open up AI's default tactics and see what is in there.

I can guarantee you that AI style and way of playing didn't change a one bit from FM 09. And in FM 09, neither AI or human player was using wizard. Every single bit of behavior that AI was doing in '09 is present in '10(as it was in 08 and 07, etc..). I didn't even have to tweak tactics from '09 to '10, except minor adjustment to tackling part.

Example would be that I just had game where Tottenham(AI) started with 4-4-2, which then changed(in about 5minutes) to 4-2-3-1(with 2 CM), then to 4-2-2-2(2 DM) then back to 4-4-2, then to 4-2-3-1( with 2 DM). All along all AI players are trying to run forward, their 2 DM were pretty much trying to camp in middle between center and my box, while their back line was standing at center.This was happening when i had lead, or they had lead or it was tie (ended up 2:2). Kinda defeats purpose of scouting reports, doesn't t?

AI changes formations and widths and switches players to different positions , but it does not change basic orders such as run (all) forward, hard tackle, man marking, very high defensive line and always close down (as examples).If it does , it's very rarely and in extreme situations.

If what you are saying is true then that would be mighty depressing, to the point that there is little point trying to play the game with any kind of strategy or thought process. I've played the FM for an awful long time too, 15 years plus, but would not claim to understand the ME or be in a position to really know what tactic / mentality an AI manager is playing against me. More credit to you for being able to understand it

One thing I would say is that, in FM10m, do we not get feedback on how our team plays against the AI and what works / doesn't work (tempo, width, def line) - In that feedback, I've seen many a time that my team does not play well against other teams who play a high / normal / deep defensive line, which surely indicates that AI managers alter their settings and don't just play this very high defensive line that you talk about??

I do agree that the AI managers changing their formation without due cause is very strange, especially after such a short amount of time in a game. I've seen an AI team change mentality 5-6 times in the last 20 minutes of a game whilst 2-0 down (defensive to attacking to defensive in the space of 6 - 8 minutes)

Very interesting thread. I never thougt of that obviously unreal situation although I know about AI changing tactics constantly. The revelations about forward runs, high def lines etc are indeed also obvious once someone points them out. So what is going on? We are actually playing against managers and teams that bear no resemblance whatsoever to real football. This is very frustrating.

Playing this game for over 10 years and always watching matches on at least extended and trying to figure out as many details as i can about this game could be good enough to be confident in something. In addition to that as software tester(not my first trade though) i tend to experiment a lot to see which way AI would behave.And if anything else fails , you can always open up AI's default tactics and see what is in there.

I can guarantee you that AI style and way of playing didn't change a one bit from FM 09. And in FM 09, neither AI or human player was using wizard. Every single bit of behavior that AI was doing in '09 is present in '10(as it was in 08 and 07, etc..). I didn't even have to tweak tactics from '09 to '10, except minor adjustment to tackling part.

Example would be that I just had game where Tottenham(AI) started with 4-4-2, which then changed(in about 5minutes) to 4-2-3-1(with 2 CM), then to 4-2-2-2(2 DM) then back to 4-4-2, then to 4-2-3-1( with 2 DM). All along all AI players are trying to run forward, their 2 DM were pretty much trying to camp in middle between center and my box, while their back line was standing at center.This was happening when i had lead, or they had lead or it was tie (ended up 2:2). Kinda defeats purpose of scouting reports, doesn't t?

AI changes formations and widths and switches players to different positions , but it does not change basic orders such as run (all) forward, hard tackle, man marking, very high defensive line and always close down (as examples).If it does , it's very rarely and in extreme situations.

The AI uses the creator settings for all its tactics. If it isn't part of the creator/shouts, the AI doesn't access it. The logic has been completely rewritten between FM09 and FM10. What you are suggesting happens doesn't happen, although I'd accept the AI requires more sophistication in terms of picking touchline instructions.

The AI uses the creator settings for all its tactics. If it isn't part of the creator/shouts, the AI doesn't access it. The logic has been completely rewritten between FM09 and FM10. What you are suggesting happens doesn't happen, although I'd accept the AI requires more sophistication in terms of picking touchline instructions.

Maybe it is, but i am experiencing same performances by AI.Again, while i am still enjoying the game , i would like to point out that AI still has same gameplan as it did in previous editions.

Excessive use of things like hard tackling(most of the time completely unnecessary),constant tight marking, overly aggressive closing down, forward runs and extremely high defensive line are definite occurrence in this and previous additions. Perhaps it can be surprising in beginning, but in very short time AI becomes very predictable and easy to handle due to repetition of above mentioned things.

In my second season with Sunderland everyone from Bayern in CL to Port Vale in friendly is playing same(not with same quality), even starting with same formation lately(despite what scout report said about their formations) , and as result of that i haven't lose match yet.For the record i don't have team full of stars, my most valued players are Cattermole and Bent, so nothing to write home about.

I am using right now total of 1(one) almost default tactic , that i am adjusting (if necessary) strictly through shouts for whole match, and yet i didn't lose due to extreme predictability of AI.And that one is not to different then ones that i had in previous editions.It doesn't matter to me if AI uses creator/shouts or not, what it matters that it's using in same predictable way , over and over again.

EDIT: I'll give you example of AI predictability(being completely one sided) and other issues i mentioned above and how simple is to get around it. In this away match i was mostly playing with man down and yet my team completely dominated hosts(3:0), only because AI did exactly same things that it always does(note how many formation changes AI did in match) : http://rapidshare.com/files/316977523/Birmingham_v_Sunderland_Cup.pkm

The ai in the game engine is broke, unless SI want us to spend 2 hours per match. The formation shouldnt change more than twice per match. My team got hammered at the w/e and the only tactical change apart from subs was to swap the wingers. I didnt see us go 433 424 451 within 10 minutes like the mental ai does every game.

Its so bad that I never adjust anything for the opposition, whats the point if they are going to randomly change every 5 mins, you cant prepare for anything that way.

The ai in the game engine is broke, unless SI want us to spend 2 hours per match. The formation shouldnt change more than twice per match. My team got hammered at the w/e and the only tactical change apart from subs was to swap the wingers. I didnt see us go 433 424 451 within 10 minutes like the mental ai does every game.

Its so bad that I never adjust anything for the opposition, whats the point if they are going to randomly change every 5 mins, you cant prepare for anything that way.

Yup agree.

My mate was talking his usual nonsense in the pub the other day and came out with this nugget.

"Why not have a section for doing your coaching badges, where you can have a look at Fergie or Wenger's tactics in specific games and analyze them?" This is more or less done on these forums anyway so why not make it part of the game so those of us not very tactics proficient can become more so and those who think the tactic's are easy/just right don't need to bother?

Excessive use of things like hard tackling(most of the time completely unnecessary),constant tight marking, overly aggressive closing down, forward runs and extremely high defensive line are definite occurrence in this and previous additions. Perhaps it can be surprising in beginning, but in very short time AI becomes very predictable and easy to handle due to repetition of above mentioned things.

I really don't know how you are seeing this. Against lower level sides they tend to go ultra-defensive against me.

Frankly, teams attack me in all kinds of different ways as well, which makes perfect sense given the tactical creator and the different personalities of the managers.

i agree with openposter to a certain extend, AI does change tactics quite a bit. I advice you to do the same thing. On fm08, i read @ various places that switching around tactics too much can hurt your chances.

So far my observation is that you can freely manouvre between the 3 standard tactics (442, 41221, 4231) without dropping in performance. This opens up some interesting options, experiment with this imo.