PDA

View Full Version : Detailed experiment of youth development - Troubling results



SiN8
07-12-2007, 23:06
Objective:

I want to provide an detailed analysis of the player development model in FM08. Since SI modified the training system for FM08, this study will hopefully determine whether a long-term game is sustainable. This will also investigate as to why many talented youth are not picked by the national team.


Motivation:

I like to play out a career in FM over a span of 20+ seasons. In order to enjoy such a long-term game, it is crucial that the youth development and the regen system maintain a consistent level of players. There have been multiple threads complaining that the training system is broken. There are also sporadic threads complaining that regens have unrealistically low physical stats.

Furthermore, I've also noticed in my game that national teams are not picking talented youth, but rather sticking with the veterans well past their peak. This might have to do something with the development model.


Simulation:

I started off a holiday game with the 8.0.1 patch. I am using a large database and have the following leagues playable:

Argentina - Primera División
Australia - A-League
Brazil - Campeonato Brasileiro
China - Super League
England - Premiership and Championship
France - Ligue 1
Germany - Bundesliga
Holland - Premier Division
Italy - Serie A and Serie B
Mexico - Primera División
Portugal - Bwin Liga
Russia - Premier League
Scotland - Premier League
South Africa - Castle Premiership
South Korea - K-League
Spain - La Liga and Seconda A
USA - MLS

This covers basically 5 continents with 17 countries and 20 leagues. I am saving every 2 years in August. The numbers used for analysis are obtained using Genie Scout.

SiN8
07-12-2007, 23:06
Objective:

I want to provide an detailed analysis of the player development model in FM08. Since SI modified the training system for FM08, this study will hopefully determine whether a long-term game is sustainable. This will also investigate as to why many talented youth are not picked by the national team.


Motivation:

I like to play out a career in FM over a span of 20+ seasons. In order to enjoy such a long-term game, it is crucial that the youth development and the regen system maintain a consistent level of players. There have been multiple threads complaining that the training system is broken. There are also sporadic threads complaining that regens have unrealistically low physical stats.

Furthermore, I've also noticed in my game that national teams are not picking talented youth, but rather sticking with the veterans well past their peak. This might have to do something with the development model.


Simulation:

I started off a holiday game with the 8.0.1 patch. I am using a large database and have the following leagues playable:

Argentina - Primera División
Australia - A-League
Brazil - Campeonato Brasileiro
China - Super League
England - Premiership and Championship
France - Ligue 1
Germany - Bundesliga
Holland - Premier Division
Italy - Serie A and Serie B
Mexico - Primera División
Portugal - Bwin Liga
Russia - Premier League
Scotland - Premier League
South Africa - Castle Premiership
South Korea - K-League
Spain - La Liga and Seconda A
USA - MLS

This covers basically 5 continents with 17 countries and 20 leagues. I am saving every 2 years in August. The numbers used for analysis are obtained using Genie Scout.

SiN8
07-12-2007, 23:07
Savegame 1: July 7, 2007

Total number of players: 52331

Players under 21:

190 - 200 PA: 2
180 - 189 PA: 21
170 - 179 PA: 111
160 - 169 PA: 160

190 - 200 CA: 0
180 - 189 CA: 2
170 - 179 CA: 0
160 - 169 CA: 2
150 - 159 CA: 12
140 - 149 CA: 34
130 - 139 CA: 71
120 - 129 CA: 183

Pace and acceleration >= 15: 1666

All-around athletes* : 113

*Defined as pace & acceleration >=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina &

strength >=10

Players between 21 and 24:

190 - 200 PA: 6
180 - 189 PA: 39
170 - 179 PA: 92
160 - 169 PA: 227

190 - 200 CA: 0
180 - 189 CA: 2
170 - 179 CA: 15
160 - 169 CA: 24
150 - 159 CA: 60
140 - 149 CA: 173
130 - 139 CA: 353
120 - 129 CA: 746

Pace and acceleration >= 15: 2016

All-around athletes* : 366

*Defined as pace & acceleration >=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina &

strength >=10

All players

190 - 200 CA: 1
180 - 189 CA: 18
170 - 179 CA: 68

International Caps

Players under 25 with international caps: 1273
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 2
Oldest player >= 165 CA with no caps: Sebastien Frey[27] - 173 CA

England
Players under 25 with international caps: 13
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0

Spain
Players under 25 with international caps: 9
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 1 Jesus Navas[21] - 166 CA

Italy
Players under 25 with international caps: 5
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0

France
Players under 25 with international caps: 9
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0

Germany
Players under 25 with international caps: 16
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0

Holland
Players under 25 with international caps: 20
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0

Brazil
Players under 25 with international caps: 21
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0

Argentina
Players under 25 with international caps: 18
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0

Analysis

This sets the baseline at the beginning of the game. With the exception of Messi and Fabregas, talented players under 21 reach around 150 CA. There's also a good amount of players under 25 that have international caps. In fact, only 2 players under 25 >= 165 CA has not been capped yet. The only player >= 170 CA without a cap is Frey.

SiN8
07-12-2007, 23:09
Savegame 2: August 4, 2009

Total number of players: 53322

Players under 21:

190 - 200 PA: 6
180 - 189 PA: 22
170 - 179 PA: 94
160 - 169 PA: 112

190 - 200 CA: 0
180 - 189 CA: 0
170 - 179 CA: 0
160 - 169 CA: 6
150 - 159 CA: 13
140 - 149 CA: 23
130 - 139 CA: 70
120 - 129 CA: 110

Pace and acceleration >= 15: 1357

All-around athletes* : 117

*Defined as pace & acceleration >=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina &

strength >=10

Players between 21 and 24:

190 - 200 PA: 5
180 - 189 PA: 29
170 - 179 PA: 110
160 - 169 PA: 189

190 - 200 CA: 3
180 - 189 CA: 3
170 - 179 CA: 25
160 - 169 CA: 65
150 - 159 CA: 156
140 - 149 CA: 280
130 - 139 CA: 540
120 - 129 CA: 821

Pace and acceleration >= 15: 1300

All-around athletes* : 331

*Defined as pace & acceleration >=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength >=10

All players

190 - 200 CA: 5
180 - 189 CA: 23
170 - 179 CA: 95

International Caps

Players under 25 with international caps: 1280
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 13
Oldest player >= 165 CA with no caps: Amauri[29] - 175 CA

England
Players under 25 with international caps: 7
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 1
Leighton Baines[24] - 166 CA

Spain
Players under 25 with international caps: 5
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 7
Jesus Navas[23] - 172 CA

Italy
Players under 25 with international caps: 9
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 1
Lucas[22] - 174 CA

France
Players under 25 with international caps: 7
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 2
Jeremy Menez[22] - 168 CA

Germany
Players under 25 with international caps: 8
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0

Holland
Players under 25 with international caps: 10
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0

Brazil
Players under 25 with international caps: 13
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 1
Lucas[22] - 174 CA

Argentina
Players under 25 with international caps: 13
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 1
Gonzalo Higuain[21] - 168 CA

Analysis

Even just after two years, we're seeing signs that the youth development is not up to standard. While the regens have higher PA, the total number of under-21s that have >= 120 CA dropped by 79.

For players 21 to 24, the average CA is going up. There's also an drop in the number of players with good physical attributes in both age groups. In the 21 to 24 group, there's a drop off of 716 players with good pace and acceleration.

As for international caps, we can seeing less players under 25 getting caps. We are also seeing players who have good CA, but are not being called up. Victor Valdes, Amauri, Jesus Navas and Lucas are all examples >= 170 CA and no caps.

Dominiq
07-12-2007, 23:23
i've bookmarked this, you have a reader, keep it up ;-)

towerofpower
07-12-2007, 23:26
I wouldn't mind if average player levels would go down a bit. I love this game, but something that bothers me after few seasons is, that it seems like that even worst teams in premiership are filled with players with who got great attributes.

If you compare premiership players since the moment you start, and then let's say 3 years it seems premier league standard goes up way too much...suddenly mid-table team having as good team as top table team at start. This due development and transfers. I feel the cap between best EPL team and worst EPL team narrows down too much and there could be more difference between their key player statistics.

That is why I'm glad standard of average players go down, because I don't want to face team every game where their player is 18+ on every attribute ( overstatement, but you know what I mean http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

towerofpower
07-12-2007, 23:31
You see, I want great individuals stand out, but they dont if nearly every player on pitch is up his standard. I want more variety, and more weaknesses even on world's best players emphatzing their strenghts and weaknesses alike. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SiN8
07-12-2007, 23:37
I'm going to try a new format by putting past results side by side. So in this post, you'll see 3 numbers. The first is savegame 1, second is savegame 2 and the rightmost is the current savegame 3.

Hopefully, this will allow easier comparison.

Savegame 3: August 1, 2011

Total number of players: 52331, 53322, 53260

Players under 21:

190 - 200 PA: 2, 6, 7
180 - 189 PA: 21, 22, 39
170 - 179 PA: 111, 94, 99
160 - 169 PA: 160, 112, 92

190 - 200 CA: 0, 0, 0
180 - 189 CA: 2, 0, 0
170 - 179 CA: 0, 0, 1
160 - 169 CA: 2, 6, 0
150 - 159 CA: 12, 13, 4
140 - 149 CA: 34, 23, 7
130 - 139 CA: 71, 70, 24
120 - 129 CA: 183, 110, 59

Pace and acceleration >= 15: 1666, 1357, 1033

All-around athletes* : 113, 117, 38

*Defined as pace & acceleration >=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina &

strength >=10

Players between 21 and 24:

190 - 200 PA: 6, 5, 3
180 - 189 PA: 39, 29, 21
170 - 179 PA: 92, 110, 99
160 - 169 PA: 227, 189, 139

190 - 200 CA: 0, 3, 2
180 - 189 CA: 2, 3, 3
170 - 179 CA: 15, 25, 24
160 - 169 CA: 24, 65, 57
150 - 159 CA: 60, 156, 133
140 - 149 CA: 173, 280, 290
130 - 139 CA: 353, 540, 475
120 - 129 CA: 746, 821, 818

Pace and acceleration >= 15: 2016, 1300, 811

All-around athletes* : 366, 331, 211

*Defined as pace & acceleration >=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength >=10

All players

190 - 200 CA: 1, 5, 4
180 - 189 CA: 18, 23, 28
170 - 179 CA: 68, 95, 105

International Caps

Players under 25 with international caps: 1273, 1280, 1168
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 2, 13, 21
Oldest player >= 170 CA with no caps: Amauri[31] - 175 CA

England
Players under 25 with international caps: 13, 7, 4
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0, 1, 5
Fabrice Muamba[23] - 166 CA

Spain
Players under 25 with international caps: 9, 5, 4
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0, 7, 5
Bojan[20] - 177 CA

Italy
Players under 25 with international caps: 5, 9, 10
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0, 1, 1
Lucas[24] - 177 CA

France
Players under 25 with international caps: 9, 7, 6
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0, 2, 6
Jeremy Menez[24] - 176 CA

Germany
Players under 25 with international caps: 16, 8, 1
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0, 0, 2
Kevin-Prince Boateng[24] - 169 CA

Holland
Players under 25 with international caps: 20, 10, 7
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0, 0, 1
Ismael Aissati[22] - 167 CA

Brazil
Players under 25 with international caps: 21, 13, 9
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0, 1, 4
Alexander Pato[21] - 181 CA

Argentina
Players under 25 with international caps: 18, 13, 8
Players under 25 >= 165 CA without caps: 0, 1, 1
Gonzalo Higuain[23] - 174 CA

Analysis

With the new format, we can see the degrade in youth development much more clearly. Youth are been regenerated with good PA, but the CA is just too low. There's only 95 under-21 with >= 120 CA.

Compare that to 302 in the first savegame. Physical attributes are also decreasing at an alarming rate. Perhaps development is lagging behind in the physical department.

International caps for talented youth are also dropping except for Italy. As a result, we are
seeing players who have high CA but no caps. Amauri still has not been capped despite having over 175 CA for two years now. Meanwhile, Pato at 181 CA has not been capped. But he's still young and hopefully will be on the national team soon.

SiN8
07-12-2007, 23:47
The results for the first 4 years are interesting. Youth definitely do not develop as fast as FM07. We should keep an eye on the CA for "all players". While as FM07 players stop developing at 24, I have a feeling that FM08 players continue to develop even at older ages.

I'll continue this tomorrow. It takes a couple of hours to process a season. If there's anything else you guys want me to track, feel free to ask.

Warrenwwr
08-12-2007, 01:48
this is i think a good thing, ask ferguson.. youth development should be done carefully, or it just won't work out right.

Joshlee
08-12-2007, 01:56
SI just mess the youth development up...
it don't have any problem in previous version

djsills
08-12-2007, 02:00
I'm glad the youth develop more slowly, it's more realistic. But if these trends continue so dramatically there might be problems in long term games.

There is one problem though. My 20/20 scouts continue to tell me that players under 21 have reached their full potential. This is possiby the result of just asking for a report, but when he assesses a 17 year old surely he should predict a large degree of improvement, even if he is indeed playing near his potential in reality.

Nice experiment Sin8 I look forward to some more results

Dominiq
08-12-2007, 02:47
I can give two conclusions so far.

Either youth development in FM 2008 is spot on but the researchers are so BIASED that they inflate all their research targets especially the stars to far beyond their real / realistic ability ( This seems true whenever i look at Zlatan Ibrahimovic ) making the gap between the 'real' and 'what you get' more obvious as seen by this experiment.

OR researchers are saints and managed a perfect snapshot of the players they governed, in which case we have a serious game issue with youth development as seen by this experiment.

Qceng
08-12-2007, 03:17
My findings show that regen CA is generated too low. They peak too late and it is very hard to get them to improve by more than 15 CA/year in the 15-20 age group. I can forsee a situation of no wonderkids once we have a regen-only age group of < 21.

Forget your Messi's, Fabregas', Aguero's etc.

gio
08-12-2007, 03:24
There has been a problem with youth development in FM ever since they got rid of the 'regen' idea. Problems from the past include

- Newgens having poor teamwork attributes
- Newgens with poor physical attributes, much like the problem investigated here
- Poor attribute alignment, with defenders having 20 for finishing and flair, but 8 for marking and positioning.
- The only PPMs a newgen ever had were "shoots from distance" even if their long shots attribute was only 5. This may not be fixed yet
- A lack of potentially world class players.

Some of these issues may have been fixed, such as the teamwork bug, but I think the others still exist in the development engine. Interestingly, the last point seems to have been fixed in a way, but in fixing it other problems have become apparent i.e. players not reaching their potential, not enough players in the mid range etc. etc.

The whole issue of development really needs to be sorted. These experiments have cropped up for every version of FM, each revealing shortcomings in the development engine - and yet nothings been done. Hopefully SI can sort it once and for all, and hopefully for the next patch!

ZoL!
08-12-2007, 03:52
A very interesting topic, SiN8. I am looking forward to you continuing it, and after that I will be looking in a way to resume your results, and posting them on another forum. If that is ok with you, of course http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GoGa70
08-12-2007, 06:50
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- The only PPMs a newgen ever had were "shoots from distance" even if their long shots attribute was only 5. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


there are plenty of players that shoot from distance even if all their long shots end up high and wide. Just because someone isn't very good at something doesn't mean they don't do it.

GoGa70
08-12-2007, 06:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Pace and acceleration &gt;= 15: 1666, 1357, 1033 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

considering the match engine is heavily biased towards pace/accel, I'm not surprised with this decline.

Sir_Liam
08-12-2007, 07:33
Good experiement. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

I've not really got too far in the future yet on this FM, but on FM2007 I felt young players developed too quickly, and it was too easy to get a player to reach their PA. It needed slowing down, but this experiment so far appears to be showing that its been slowed down too much.

gio
08-12-2007, 08:01
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GoGa70:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- The only PPMs a newgen ever had were "shoots from distance" even if their long shots attribute was only 5. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


there are plenty of players that shoot from distance even if all their long shots end up high and wide. Just because someone isn't very good at something doesn't mean they don't do it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not the point though is it? The fact that the only PPM newgens ever had was 'Shoots from distance' is the flaw.

Erithtotl
08-12-2007, 11:03
I am currently in 2017. While I ahve noticed a good number of quality young players (not nearly as bad as some of the early alarmists suggest), there are two issues I've noticed.

One agrees very strongly with what you've been saying: There are very few great athletes amongst the great players. There are way too many players with fantastic mental and technical skills but pace and jumping scores hovering around 10. The other is the PPM issue. Since it is so hard to transfer PPMs through tutoring, more players need to be generated with more PPMs, and that is just not happening. This was an issue with FM 07 as well.

Erithtotl
08-12-2007, 11:06
Let me add one of the most troubling trends is top-flight DCs with poor jumping and pace attributes.

SiN8
08-12-2007, 11:09
Again, the rightmost number is for savegame 4. I've also added a new section that tracks players who never achieve their potential. Pretty interesting finding.

Savegame 4: August 1, 2013

Total number of players: 52331...53322...53260...55119

Players under 21:

190 - 200 PA: 2.....6.....7.....10
180 - 189 PA: 21....22....39....41
170 - 179 PA: 111...94....99....110
160 - 169 PA: 160...112...92....94

190 - 200 CA: 0.....0.....0.....0
180 - 189 CA: 2.....0.....0.....0
170 - 179 CA: 0.....0.....1.....0
160 - 169 CA: 2.....6.....0.....0
150 - 159 CA: 12....13....4.....0
140 - 149 CA: 34....23....7.....2
130 - 139 CA: 71....70....24....18
120 - 129 CA: 183...110...59....77

Pace and acceleration &gt;= 15: 1666.....1357.....1033.....947

All-around athletes* : 113.....117.....38.....34

*Defined as pace & acceleration &gt;=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength &gt;=10

Players between 21 and 24:

190 - 200 PA: 6.....5.....3.....5
180 - 189 PA: 39....29....21....19
170 - 179 PA: 92....110...99....79
160 - 169 PA: 227...189...139...93

190 - 200 CA: 0.....3.....2.....0
180 - 189 CA: 2.....3.....3.....1
170 - 179 CA: 15....25....24....9
160 - 169 CA: 24....65....57....17
150 - 159 CA: 60....156...133...95
140 - 149 CA: 173...280...290...182
130 - 139 CA: 353...540...475...356
120 - 129 CA: 746...821...818...539

Pace and acceleration &gt;= 15: 2016.....1300.....811.....564

All-around athletes* : 366.....331.....211.....139

*Defined as pace & acceleration &gt;=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength &gt;=10

All players

190 - 200 CA: 1.....5.....4.....6
180 - 189 CA: 18....23....28....16
170 - 179 CA: 68....95....105...97

Wasted Potential
This section will track those players who never reach their potential. We're seeing regens with good PA, but they never seem to develop. This hopefully will shed some light.

Players who underachieved* &gt;= 50: 302.....222.....104.....104

*Defined as players between 27 and 30 whose PA &gt;= 150, but their PA - CA &gt;= 20. These players are in their peak years, but have not come close to reaching their potential.


International Caps

Players under 25 with international caps: 1273..1280..1168..905
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 2.....13....21....11
Oldest player &gt;= 170 CA with no caps: Gianluca Pegolo[32] - 170 CA

[i]England
Players under 25 with international caps: 13....7.....4.....3
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....5.....1
Scott Sinclair[23] - 174 CA

Spain
Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....5.....4.....2
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....7.....5.....3
Bojan[22] - 179 CA

Italy
Players under 25 with international caps: 5.....9.....10....1
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....1.....2
Alexandre Pato[23] - 184 CA

France
Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....7.....6.....3
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....2.....6.....1
Obertan Gabriel[24] - 167 CA

Germany
Players under 25 with international caps: 16....8.....1.....0
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....0.....2.....1
Toni Kroos[23] - 172 CA

Holland
Players under 25 with international caps: 20....10....7.....2
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....0.....1.....1
Ismael Aissati[24] - 170 CA

Brazil
Players under 25 with international caps: 21....13....9.....4
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....4.....3
Alexander Pato[23] - 184 CA

Argentina
Players under 25 with international caps: 18....13....8.....3
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....1.....0

Analysis

Since we are six years into the game, almost all under-21s are now regens. If we compare the

current results to savegame 1, we see that regens have PA, but drastically low CA. There's only 20 players over 130 CA.

The same thing is seen for players 21 to 24. Their average CA is now much lower than the first savegame. There's another strange occurance for this group. Notice how the number of high PAs have decreased. This is odd considering that the high number of high PA youth in the first savegame.

Does this mean that the first batch of youth are retiring before reaching 24?

The slow development of youth have taken its toll on international caps. There are only a handful of under-25 players in national powerhouse teams.

As for the new wasted potential test, we are a decrease in underachievers. The results really surprised me as I thought players were not developing. But this would indicate otherwise. In fact, the high CA for all players stayed consistent. We'll have to keep our eye on this.

SiN8
08-12-2007, 11:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Players who underachieved* &gt;= 50: 302.....222.....104.....104 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please disregard the "&gt;=50"

roofel
08-12-2007, 11:13
Why does it seem more and more like SI's community members are playtesting the games for them?

Lets face it, this new game feels like it wasn't playtested at all at times.

interesting experiment though

GoGa70
08-12-2007, 11:42
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">hat's not the point though is it? The fact that the only PPM newgens ever had was 'Shoots from distance' is the flaw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i was obviously referring to his second statement

T-Bag
08-12-2007, 11:59
Good post.

I obviously haven't done any proper research like you have but anecdotally I am seeing very similar results on my game, which is now in 2015.

There are basically only a handful of newgens in any of the national teams at the moment. I decided to give miniscout a go and check out the PA/CA and it is shocking. I actually managed to sign a striker with PA of 198 (without cheating i might add) but after years and years of me doing everything I can I have so far only managed to get his PA to 140. I found I have the same situation with some other team members I have signed.

The AI isn't really doing much better either. I haven't seen a wonderkid since near the start of the game either.

I'm glad to see there are players with good PA coming through on yours though because they seem to be lacking on mine. In terms of the England U21 squad the highest PA I can find on any of the players is about 150.

Another point like you mention is players I have had for years with good CA are not being picked by the national squads either ? I find this baffling as they are not even being called up despite being better.

T-Bag
08-12-2007, 12:01
Actually the England national team have 2 newgens in the squad, both have a CA of 147.

Qceng
08-12-2007, 12:06
To stand any chance with someone at 198PA they have to have:

* 100-120 CA at 17
* 15+ /year CA growth rate until 22.

If not, he'll be miles off his PA and you're better off buying a guy with a lower PA but with better starting CA.

red_mice
08-12-2007, 12:08
This is a clever experiment and it verifies what I suspected byt looking at new players. Their physical attributes are very bad. At first I was thinking that they will get better when they grow older. But then genie came out and I was surprised to see that the very good new players would be excellent with their technique but stay slow, weak and sissy. Thank god for the editors, or else in 10 years I'd have a team as athletic as the guys that watch them from home.

T-Bag
08-12-2007, 12:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Qceng:
To stand any chance with someone at 198PA they have to have:

* 100-120 CA at 17
* 15+ /year CA growth rate until 22.

If not, he'll be miles off his PA and you're better off buying a guy with a lower PA but with better starting CA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He is 21 now. 11 goals and 9 assists in 19 apps this season (his first full season in prem) so i'm not giving up yet !

I only signed him because his description was the next Henry :P

I've checked some of the other national teams from active leagues in my game and they pretty much all only have 2-4 newgens in the squad.

SiN8
08-12-2007, 15:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Qceng:
To stand any chance with someone at 198PA they have to have:

* 100-120 CA at 17
* 15+ /year CA growth rate until 22.

If not, he'll be miles off his PA and you're better off buying a guy with a lower PA but with better starting CA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is with an assumption that players stop developing at 22. While the experiment has only reached 6 years, we are seeing that the number of underachievers (see savegame4) has actually decreased. Perhaps players continue developing well into their high 20s.

Joshlee
08-12-2007, 19:50
Why didn't any SI staff say anything about it? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Silver Foxx
08-12-2007, 20:19
Cause they are too busy wading in cash filled swimming pools.

Someone pass me the 'Luxurious Soap'

Vymrr
08-12-2007, 20:22
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Joshlee:
Why didn't any SI staff say anything about it? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are too busy counting their <STRIKE>money</STRIKE> christmas presents.

Nostromo
08-12-2007, 20:25
fascinating...what is a pa & ca? ...and how can i check?

Fire Bracelet
08-12-2007, 20:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Joshlee:
Why didn't any SI staff say anything about it? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol look, he doesn't realize yet that they don't care...hehehehe!

crazyrap465
08-12-2007, 21:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fire Bracelet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Joshlee:
Why didn't any SI staff say anything about it? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol look, he doesn't realize yet that they don't care...hehehehe! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I'm sure they purposely added this feature so that the game will be unplayable after a few years and will create unhappy customers.

Come Clarity
08-12-2007, 21:13
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by roofel:
Why does it seem more and more like SI's community members are playtesting the games for them?

Lets face it, this new game feels like it wasn't playtested at all at times.

interesting experiment though </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You say that as if you know that testers don't perform similar procedures...

bflaff
08-12-2007, 21:31
Sin8: Cool experiment. Would you be able to do the same exact thing with 07 and compare the results? That would indicate if there really is something different between 07 and 08 that is responsible, and how great the difference is.

And if other people have scout genie and 08 they can run the same experiment and see if they get similar results.

bflaff
08-12-2007, 21:48
Sin8: Also, is it possible that you need to have 'deeper' leagues in order to get proper youth development?

I noticed that most of your leagues had the top tier only. Maybe this creates a problem if the 'top' teams will act similarly to the int'l teams, in that they'll stick primarily with experienced players and let youth players sit around on the bench. If this happens, solid youth players may not have an outlet to get regular first team experience, the way they might if you could sell on or loan out younger players to lower division teams. (For instance, in my 07 game, I send as many under-21 players as possible out to teams that will treat them as valuable first team additions. This nearly always sends them to a lower div. team.) An AI team with only limited options for loaning players out may keep younger players sitting around doing nothing, unless it treats youth development as an important goal, in and of itself. But that seems doubtful, given the results you've seen.

Anyway, I'm wondering if the way you set up the experiment may account for why youth players aren't developing as well as you'd hope. So you might want to see what happens if you run the experiment with more lower tier divisions, even if this means you have to reduce the number of countries. See if you still get the same kind of results.

SiN8
08-12-2007, 23:10
NEW SECTION - Tracking players - Savegame 1

Since development is obviously modified/broken, I'm going to keep track of three players. Each
player is in their own unique situtaion and might lead to the root cause of this problem.

Lulinha is a 17 yr old Brazilian AMC with 104/187. His high PA indicates he could be in the first XI in any side. Currently playing for Corinthians in 2007, he is quite well known for a 17 year old with a reputation of 5064. Will Lulinha should be picked up by a European team soon and blossom in the top flight leagues?

Dean Vaughn is an American center back who starts the game as a 16yr old with 66/189. With proper guidance, he should be a world-class player. However, since he is playing for BYU Cougars in USA, his reputation is very low at 50. Will he be discovered by top European teams and nurtured into a top player? Or will he waste away his career as well as his potential in the MLS?

Thiago starts off as a 17 yr old MC at Barcelona with 90/173. His PA should see him be a good player, but not necessarily world class. Since Thiago has a high reputation already at 3750, top teams are keeping an eye on him. And Thiago is probably keeping an eye on them also with his ambition of 18. However, he probably will not be starting for the top sides. Will Thiago's development languish as he sits on the bench? Also, will the Spanish registration bug also hinder Thiago?

SiN8
08-12-2007, 23:11
Tracking players - Savegame 2

Lulinha - 19 yr - AMC - Suwon
2007 - 104/187
2009 - 133/187

Lulinha had a torrid 2 years with Corinthians. Even though he played in 45 league games over the last 2 seasons, his ratings were below a 6. He was sold to K-League Suwon in Dec 2008 for a 800k pounds. Lulinha become a regular for Suwon immediately and saw his new Korean side take home the East Asian Champions League. His CA increased 29 points which isn't too bad.

Dean Vaughn - 18 yr - DC - BYU Cougars
2007 - 66/189
2009 - 68/189

Dean played a total of 45 league games for BYU Cougars and had relatively good ratings. However, it was a complete disaster in terms of development with only increase of 2 CA. This area needs to be looked at by SI.

Thiago - 18 yr - MC - Zarazoga
2007 - 90/173
2009 - 124/173

Thiago didn't get to play much his first season. He got one game in Barcelona B and 3 games with the senior team. He was sold to Zaragoza for 1.2m pounds at the beginning of the 08-09 season. For Zaragoza, Thiago again played sporadically with 2 reserve games. It is somewhat surprising that he didn't get more games in the reserve leagues. This could be caused by the Spanish registration bug. However, his development was quite good, gaining 34 in CA.

SiN8
08-12-2007, 23:13
Tracking players - Savegame 3

Lulinha - 21 yr - AMC - Braga
2007 - 104/187
2009 - 133/187
2011 - 150/187

Lulinha played ok for Suwon with 36 league games and 25 cup games. In July 2011, he was sent to Braga for 1.9m pounds. His two years of service in the K-League saw a gain of 17 CA. If Lulinha is to reach full potential by 24, he'll have to pick up the slate a bit.

Dean Vaughn - 20 yr - DC - BYU Cougars
2007 - 66/189
2009 - 68/189
2011 - 73/189

What a waste of a talent! Dean played 52 games for BYU Cougars in the last two years. He was also picked by New York in the MLS draft and sent off to NOVA FC in the loan. Despite playing regularly for NOVA FC, Dean only increased his CA by 5. Seems like playing in USA does nothing for development.

Thiago - 20 yr - MC - Zaragoza
2007 - 90/173
2009 - 124/173
2011 - 151/173

Thiago's third season included 7 games in Zaragoza's senior team which surprisingly won the Champions League. The fourth season had him playing 18 games in league and 6 in cup. He also earned his first international cap for Brazil at age 19 against Denmark. In terms of development, Thiago is really blossoming into a good player with an increase of 27 CA.

SiN8
08-12-2007, 23:14
Tracking players - Savegame 4

Lulinha - 23 yr - AMC - Braga
2007 - 104/187
2009 - 133/187
2011 - 150/187
2013 - 174/187

Lulinha well for Braga with 13 league games at 6.85 rating. Just after one season, Napoli came knocking and picked him up for 5.5m pounds. At Napoli, Lulinha played 35 league games at 6.51 rating. His development went up 24 points. He might reach full potential after all. No caps yet.

Dean Vaughn - 22 yr - DC - BYU Cougars
2007 - 66/189
2009 - 68/189
2011 - 73/189
2013 - 82/189

Dean spent another year on loan at NOVA FC before getting shipped off to California. At California, he played 30 games. However, Dean should really find another profession as his CA is still only 82 after 6 years of simulation.

Thiago - 20 yr - MC - Inter
2007 - 90/173
2009 - 124/173
2011 - 151/173
2013 - 165/173

Thiago played regularly for Zaragoza in the last two years and did quite well. He was sold to Inter for 17m pounds. His CA is now at 165 and is within 8 of full potential. However, Inter might not guarantee a 165 CA player a regular spot. Will this hurt Thiago?

SiN8
08-12-2007, 23:15
Oops...Thiago is 22 yrs old in savegame 4.

SiN8
08-12-2007, 23:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bflaff:
Sin8: Cool experiment. Would you be able to do the same exact thing with 07 and compare the results? That would indicate if there really is something different between 07 and 08 that is responsible, and how great the difference is.

And if other people have scout genie and 08 they can run the same experiment and see if they get similar results. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've already deleted FM07 from my computer. However, I played 20+ seasons on it and never realized any big problems with regens.

Mikealdo
08-12-2007, 23:19
SiN8, you're writing style is exceptional. Following this with interest http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

vasilli07
08-12-2007, 23:19
Could training facilities play a part in training?

Joshlee
08-12-2007, 23:37
SIN8, you have really done a good job here, mate, keep on it! http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif
and I'm sure SI will recognize it one day(probably after enjoying their christmas holiday)
Beside that, I think SI should consider hiring SIN8 as one of their testing team, because the currently testing team they have can't even figure out this obvious BUG http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Masenyah
09-12-2007, 00:50
This problem might be a knock-on effect from the lowering of scout/coach accuracy that occurred in 8.0.1. Simply, most low CA/high PA/low Rep players are not spotted by scouts from good teams and as such never get a chance to play at clubs with decent coaches and training facilities and thus never grow in CA.

What needs to be found is a balance between this and the unrealistic situation in 07 where every player reached their PA by the age of 20.

kaNovi
09-12-2007, 02:10
Please KUTGW !!!
Very interesting as i am doing the dafuge challenge, i am now in 2020.. almost all players on the english squad is regens..

Wakers
09-12-2007, 03:09
I don't think that every player with potential has to be blossom into a good player. If he's lazy or even just unlucky he may never get anywhere near his full potential.

This is some great work buddy! keep it up http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

route1
09-12-2007, 07:06
A very interesting and articulate thread. If only there were more like this and less "WTF!? SI HAVE RUINED MY LIFE" type posts.

Will follow this with interest. Good luck with it!

SiN8
09-12-2007, 08:55
Please disregard...testing new formatting method

123 \t 3435 \t 6234 \t 2623
12 \t 2345 \t 1 \t 2

Dr_dR3
09-12-2007, 09:06
It's a shame that regens are a mayor troublepoint again. After years and years of different flaws, the regens in the last FM 2006 patch and in FM 2007 were very good. Not spot on, some minor flaws but all in all very playable.
I did some tests as well for FM 2007. Topic still might be around here somewhere.

It seems that now SI decided to redo the training system, everything has gone to waste and we're back where we were before FM 2006. I'm not pretending to be more wise that the SI-staff (far from) but a new training module should only be implented if it doesn't cause any problems in terms of player's developement.

Lyssien
09-12-2007, 09:10
Maybe, just maybe, what you are seeing with Dean Vaughn means that 20 year olds should not be playing all the time, because their progress then halts?

LutonNil
09-12-2007, 09:25
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lyssien:
Maybe, just maybe, what you are seeing with Dean Vaughn means that 20 year olds should not be playing all the time, because their progress then halts? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I'm thinking.

In my current game some reserve players values are £45K-£55K and they only make a few sub appearances for the first team.

First team players who make around 35-40 appearances per season are only worth £3k

Don't want to check CA/PA for them as it could give me an unfair advantage.

Maybe training is more beneficial than playing?

T-Bag
09-12-2007, 09:35
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LutonNil:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lyssien:
Maybe, just maybe, what you are seeing with Dean Vaughn means that 20 year olds should not be playing all the time, because their progress then halts? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I'm thinking.

In my current game some reserve players values are £45K-£55K and they only make a few sub appearances for the first team.

First team players who make around 35-40 appearances per season are only worth £3k

Don't want to check CA/PA for them as it could give me an unfair advantage.

Maybe training is more beneficial than playing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it is. Because I have become bored of the game I have taken to cheating by using mini scout to view CA/PA. The only way CA seems to rise is by playing them regular in the first team at a high level - even out on loan in a lower division you are lucky to see CA rise by more than about 5 in a season.

I loaned some players out to League one who had CA of around 100-110 but with PA in the region of 180-190. The AI doesn't even play them most of the time - the ones left in my reserves have seen no increase in CA at all.

The ones who I am playing often in my first team, but not enough to tire them out, are getting around 15 CA increase per season.

It seems the AI are only willing to play players based on their CA alone and don't take into account the PA of the player and are not willing to give them a chance. Once they are forced into playing these players they do see a CA increase and eventually become decent.

SiN8
09-12-2007, 09:43
Savegame 5: August 1, 2015

Total number of players: 52331...53322...53260...55119...55755

Players under 21:

190 - 200 PA: 2.....6.....7.....10....7
180 - 189 PA: 21....22....39....41....41
170 - 179 PA: 111...94....99....110...123
160 - 169 PA: 160...112...92....94....93

190 - 200 CA: 0.....0.....0.....0.....0
180 - 189 CA: 2.....0.....0.....0.....0
170 - 179 CA: 0.....0.....1.....0.....0
160 - 169 CA: 2.....6.....0.....0.....1
150 - 159 CA: 12....13....4.....0.....1
140 - 149 CA: 34....23....7.....2.....2
130 - 139 CA: 71....70....24....18....22
120 - 129 CA: 183...110...59....77....76

Pace and acceleration &gt;= 15: 1666.....1357.....1033.....947.....944

All-around athletes* : 113.....117.....38.....34.....36

*Defined as pace & acceleration &gt;=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength &gt;=10

Players between 21 and 24:

190 - 200 PA: 6.....5.....3.....5.....10
180 - 189 PA: 39....29....21....19....31
170 - 179 PA: 92....110...99....79....89
160 - 169 PA: 227...189...139...93....80

190 - 200 CA: 0.....3.....2.....0.....0
180 - 189 CA: 2.....3.....3.....1.....0
170 - 179 CA: 15....25....24....9.....4
160 - 169 CA: 24....65....57....17....23
150 - 159 CA: 60....156...133...95....51
140 - 149 CA: 173...280...290...182...136
130 - 139 CA: 353...540...475...356...234
120 - 129 CA: 746...821...818...539...423

Pace and acceleration &gt;= 15: 2016.....1300.....811.....564.....464

All-around athletes* : 366.....331.....211.....139.....99

*Defined as pace & acceleration &gt;=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength &gt;=10

All players

190 - 200 CA: 1.....5.....4.....6.....6
180 - 189 CA: 18....23....28....16....10
170 - 179 CA: 68....95....105...97....84

Wasted Potential
Players who underachieved*: 302.....222.....104.....104.....120

*Defined as players between 27 and 30 whose PA &gt;= 150, but their PA - CA &gt;= 20. These players are in their peak years, but have not come close to reaching their potential.


International Caps

Players under 25 with international caps: 1273..1280..1168..905...650
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 2.....13....21....11....2
Oldest player &gt;= 170 CA with no caps: Deigo Cavalieri[32] - 173 CA
Highest CA without caps: Alexandre Pato[25] - 188 CA

England
Players under 25 with international caps: 13....7.....4.....3.....2
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....5.....1.....0

Spain
Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....5.....4.....2.....6
Undeserved Callup - Joni, a regen, with 124/131 has been called up 6 times!! He has a rating of 6.32 in 2013 season for At. Madrid.

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....7.....5.....3.....0

Italy
Players under 25 with international caps: 5.....9.....10....1.....2
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....1.....2.....1
Biggest Snub - Mario Balotelli[24] - 169 CA

France
Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....7.....6.....3.....1
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....2.....6.....1.....0

Germany
Players under 25 with international caps: 16....8.....1.....0.....2
Undeserved Callup - Viktor Kruse with 131/133 has been called up twice
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....0.....2.....1.....0

Holland
Players under 25 with international caps: 20....10....7.....2.....0
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....0.....1.....1.....0

Brazil
Players under 25 with international caps: 21....13....9.....4.....2
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....4.....3.....0

Argentina
Players under 25 with international caps: 18....13....8.....3.....1
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....1.....0.....0

Analysis

The stats for under-21 are starting to stablize as all the real players have aged out. The regens do indeed have low CA. The PA for the 21-24 players do also match up with the under-21 PAs. It seems that researchers have a bias to assign higher PAs than what the regen system does. As you progress in the game, there are only 200 player between 21-24 with &gt;= 160 PA. The researchers had this number at 350.

The CA keeps on decreasing for 21-24 age group. A couple of more years down the line and we'll also see this number stabilize out. Again, either the researchers overinflated numbers or the development system isn't panning out.

Quality players are still being snubbed by national teams. A couple of notables are Pato, Ben Arfa, Higuain, Kroos, Aissati, Lulinha, Menez, Banega, Cavani and Aaron. All of them have &gt;= 170 CA with Pato at 188 CA. How does Brazil and Italy both snub Pato for so long? Also, due to the lack of development, we are hardly seeing anyone under 25 capable playing for a national side.

We are also seeing a slight increase in underachieving players.

Lyvean
09-12-2007, 09:53
Is the "National teams do not pick the best players" a known problem? If that is so, this is another showstopping bug. Can we assume this is a problem as the above analysis has shown?

Qceng
09-12-2007, 10:13
I've just done a test at the regen generation point (19th June in england) and the number of fantastic regens is low to non existant.

I reloaded 20-25 times and only got very, very few players who fit my criteria of someone who will become outstanding at a relatively young age (22-23).

Criteria: PA is always 180+.

age: 15.0 - 70+ CA
age: 16.0 - 85+ CA

It's difficult to imagine that in 20-25 years maybe only 2-3 players exist that will reach 175+ CA at a reasonable age, I'm not even saying 20 like Messi or Fabregas, but more like 22-23 but this is the scenario that's playing out. Even the game itself starts with 3 in the first year (lulinha, Kroos and Banega) and then nothing.

I think this needs a bit of calibration by SI.

Qceng
09-12-2007, 10:16
Just to add:

Banega: age 19.0 - 133 CA
Kroos: age 17.7 - 120 CA

Good luck getting regens that reach those figures at that age, particularly Kroos.

Erithtotl
09-12-2007, 10:37
I'd like to emphasize even ignoring the CA/PA ratio, the lack of physical skills in regens is a huge problem. It's very difficult to find a regen who doesn't have lower league physical stats after about 10 years of game time.

kaNovi
09-12-2007, 12:54
Seriously, its hardly THAT big of a deal.. i found there are some good players in my long term game, and i can say its not ruining one bit of my game.

Look at some of these players i have:
Becker (http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2536/12092007205853od6.jpg)
Field (http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6605/12092007210841vj5.jpg)
Ormaetxea (http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3517/12092007211037oh7.jpg)
Romero (http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/708/12092007211142zb8.jpg)
Clark (http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9270/12092007211725bz3.jpg)
Mendes (http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/3985/12092007212829zp5.jpg)[/QUOTE]
Bradshaw (http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9231/12092007212625qx6.jpg)
Couno (http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/368/12092007215220la9.jpg)
Veldhuizen (http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8600/12092007215243zx9.jpg)

T-Bag
09-12-2007, 12:59
There you go, most of the players you have posted are mid twenties or above.

I've noticed the U21 teams are not picking the high PA players either. They are only picking players based on their CA. This means that none of them actually go on to play for the full international teams, becuase most have a PA of about 120-140. The other players are taking so long to develop they don't get into the national teams until they are much older.

My 198 PA regen was French and played for the U21's but because they were playing a 33 year old Anelka and 32(?)Cisse up front he didn't get picked, and has now gone to play for Cameroon instead.

kaNovi
09-12-2007, 13:06
well it was more a pointing out of the players in my game are just as good as the players in the start of the game

PMLF
09-12-2007, 13:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My 198 PA regen was French and played for the U21's but because they were playing a 33 year old Anelka and 32(?)Cisse up front he didn't get picked, and has now gone to play for Cameroon instead. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Old players should retire from int'l football more often in the game.

SiN8
09-12-2007, 13:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kaNovi:
well it was more a pointing out of the players in my game are just as good as the players in the start of the game </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From looking at their stats, I wouldn't rate any of those players as world-class. Their physical attributes are much too low.

SiN8
09-12-2007, 13:55
Tracking players - Savegame 5

Lulinha - 25 yr - AMC - Roma
2007 - 104/187
2009 - 133/187
2011 - 150/187
2013 - 174/187
2015 - 176/187

The next two season saw Lulinha play 39 league games for Napoli, but his rating was just 6.35. Subsequently, Napoli sold him to Roma for 9.75m pounds in July 2015. Lulinha's development pretty much stalled after gaining only 2 CA. Although an excellent player, he probably will never reach his full potential. Too bad since he still has not been called up by Brazil.

Dean Vaughn - 24 yr - DC - Chivas USA
2007 - 66/189
2009 - 68/189
2011 - 73/189
2013 - 82/189
2015 - 98/189

Dean was signed for free by Real Salt Lake in the MLS. However, he played only 2 games before he was released. Luckily, Chivas USA signed Dean and quickly made him a starter. Dean so far played 25 games in the 2015 MLS season. The MLS experience actually allowed a 24 yr old Dean to develop faster than any other stage in his life. He might even break 100.

Thiago - 24 yr - MC - Inter
2007 - 90/173
2009 - 124/173
2011 - 151/173
2013 - 165/173
2015 - 168/173

Thiago proved me wrong by quickly breaking into the first XI. Over the two years, he played 72 games for Inter and 12 times for Brazil. This is made more remarkable since Thiago has not cracked the 170 CA mark. But he's playing well and should continue to have a great career.

kaNovi
09-12-2007, 13:57
Hmm you might be right, i cant find a single player who is listed as World Class or Wonderkid

T-Bag
09-12-2007, 14:15
I'm glad to see that they are actually coming close to their PA though. The main thing I love about FM is developing new players in the long term. It seems a bit slow but at least they get there in the end.

It's certainly not a show stopper but it does look like it needs tweaking by Si.

Erithtotl
09-12-2007, 14:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SiN8:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kaNovi:
well it was more a pointing out of the players in my game are just as good as the players in the start of the game </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From looking at their stats, I wouldn't rate any of those players as world-class. Their physical attributes are much too low. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, not a single player with a 15 in pace and jumping.

Joor
09-12-2007, 14:23
You have to look at players hidden stats; ambitions and professionalism . Your 80 ca 190 pa 17 year old youngster will never get anywere near hes PA if he does not have any ambitions. High professionelism = he likes to train hard ..which means fast progress over the years.
Also the clubs training facilites has a big impact too.
Tutoring youngsters with an old professional player is actually very usefull.

I did a quick test with milan, where I told Nesta to work with some 17 year old central defender(70 ca 155 PA) . He was had 11 professionalism, 12 ambition when I started the game - and now in the beginning of 3rd season he got 17 professionalism and 16 ambition... CA is 115.

LutonNil
09-12-2007, 14:27
Excellent experiment.

I have sort of changed my mind about this thread - I agreed 100% at the start but have thought a lot about it.

The fact that 2 out of your 3 players have almost reached their PA shows they can develop.

Most players in real life don't get anywhere near their full potential. Just recalling a few Man Utd players over recent years that had massive PA - you would think "where are they now?" or "WHO!!"

Grant Brebner, Phil Mulryne, Bodan Djordic, Michel Twiss, Luke Chadwick, Guiliano Maiorana (better than Giggs) and Ronnie Wallwork just to name a few.

I've just come to the conclusion that youth development is almost right and the current young players have been massively over-rated - especially in England. I wouldn't rate any of the England squad (barring Rooney) at anything over 160 CA and 170 PA.

People say Messi has a PA of 198 now in the game -- what would Pele, Best and Maradona be rated at then??

SiDolman
09-12-2007, 14:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">have sort of changed my mind about this thread - I agreed 100% at the start but have thought a lot about it.

The fact that 2 out of your 3 players have almost reached their PA shows they can develop.

Most players in real life don't get anywhere near their full potential. Just recalling a few Man Utd players over recent years that had massive PA - you would think "where are they now?" or "WHO!!"

Grant Brebner, Phil Mulryne, Bodan Djordic, Michel Twiss, Luke Chadwick, Guiliano Maiorana (better than Giggs) and Ronnie Wallwork just to name a few. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There should be players that dont reach their potential but the problem is that regen players do not get anywhere near their potential untill their late twenties (and their is a lack of them). Look at giggs he was near his potential at a early age, rooney was, in fact some players are better at a early age (owen, ronaldo).

I find this wont spoil my enjoyment of the game, ill just never play a game longer than 10 seasons because it just starts to look so unrealistic (which is the opposite of what fm has always tried to achieve).

I find it very strange that si never picked up on this, its as if they didnt have any testers playing games longer than a few seasons.

SiN8
09-12-2007, 14:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LutonNil:
Excellent experiment.

I have sort of changed my mind about this thread - I agreed 100% at the start but have thought a lot about it.

The fact that 2 out of your 3 players have almost reached their PA shows they can develop.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The sample rate is quite small. Furthermore, both Lulinla and Thiago started off with good CA and high reputation. Dean started with 66 and never got picked up by a top club. Since most regens have low CA, they might be following in the footsteps of Dean Vaughn instead of Lulinha.

I'd rather base my conclusion on the overall numbers, which show a large decline in quality. Even though researchers can be biased, I still think that ratings are pretty good for this game. Therefore, regens should achieve a comparable level.

SiDolman
09-12-2007, 14:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">People say Messi has a PA of 198 now in the game -- what would Pele, Best and Maradona be rated at then?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

can hardly compare best with the other two, i think messi is a much better player

Masenyah
09-12-2007, 15:06
A Few of the regens I have n my team (some on loan from bigger clubs). I don't know their Ca/Pa but for their ages 18-21, these look good/great to me.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/1950/picture1lb1.th.png (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture1lb1.png)

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8404/picture2uz0.th.png (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture2uz0.png)

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4082/picture3fh8.th.png (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture3fh8.png)

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/6779/picture4vc1.th.png (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture4vc1.png)

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4662/picture5ir3.th.png (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture5ir3.png)

LutonNil
09-12-2007, 15:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">can hardly compare best with the other two </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


These three are generally regarded as the best 3 players ever (I know you'll try to come up with alternatives) Cruyff, Garrincha, Steve Bull

What would Best have achieved if he played for Brazil

People seem to remember him for being an alcoholic http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Masenyah
09-12-2007, 15:36
Here's a link to a 2034 savegame (It's not my own)
http://rapidshare.com/files/68216281/symulacja2032.fm.html

While the regens in that save game are on par with the best in the starting database, since there is now way of reggresing it, there is now way of really knowing how they got to be that way (wonderkids, late bloomers etc...) and as such doesn't answer any questions regarding development. However it allays any fears that 20 years in the future there will be a lack of quality players in the game.

SiDolman
09-12-2007, 15:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">These three are generally regarded as the best 3 players ever (I know you'll try to come up with alternatives) Cruyff, Garrincha, Steve Bull

What would Best have achieved if he played for Brazil

People seem to remember him for being an alcoholic </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry might seemed like i was being a bit pedantic but i just think he has always been a bit overrated.

why shouldn't a player such a messi get a pa of 198, why should he not be able reach the ability of the greats. Every generation has a batch of players that are probably just as good if not better than the batch before, athletes of all types get better and better.

LutonNil
09-12-2007, 16:19
I agree Messi could reach his potential (or get very close to it - 190+)

But looking back at the savegame 1 stats there are 96 players with a CA of 170+ , 123 in save 2 and 137 in save 3

This leads me to think that all players are currently over-rated - I don't believe there are 137 players in real life with a CA of 170+

For example a good Blue Square North player in the game has a CA of 40-50 -- way over-rated compared to an average Premier player CA of 120-130

The over-rating of current players is the thing that is screwing things up and I think the regen system over a length of time will even things up. You will still get world class players - this guy is close and there may be better players than him in this save.

Lulinha - 25 yr - AMC - Roma
2007 - 104/187
2009 - 133/187
2011 - 150/187
2013 - 174/187
2015 - 176/187

He could hit 180 in the next year or two which would make him world class in my opinion.

SiDolman
09-12-2007, 16:52
i can see where you are coming from in that there could bt too many young players at the start of the game which are overrrated, but to only have 2 u21 players over CA140 in 4th save, and only 4 over CA140 in the 5th save is completley wrong. Most big teams throughout europe probably have atleast 2 u21 players which are way over a CA140

SiDolman
09-12-2007, 16:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The over-rating of current players is the thing that is screwing things up and I think the regen system over a length of time will even things up. You will still get world class players - this guy is close and there may be better players than him in this save. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ratings will even themselves out in the end but who wants national teams full of grandads in the meantime

cr4z3d
09-12-2007, 17:01
Interesting experiment. I've been playing in the dafuge challenge and I have to say that I'm not seeing any wonderkids that are being signed by the big clubs like a Cristiano Ronaldo or Bojan type player.

But, I'm still enjoying the game, and it'll be much more interesting when those types of players pop-up once every 5 years or something.

However, I think you need to run all the divisions in those leagues to strengthen your argument, because the teams in the bottom division always end up loaning players.

Another reason for high CA youths is maybe that they are based in poor countries. In my game I tried signing a regen (who was jobless) from the US but couldn't get him due to work permit.

In conclusion, I think that there should be a couple of high CA/PA players regenerated every couple of years, cause your research does show that the CA of U-21 decreases thru the years.

LutonNil
09-12-2007, 17:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SiDolman:
i can see where you are coming from in that there could bt too many young players at the start of the game which are overrrated, but to only have 2 u21 players over CA140 in 4th save, and only 4 over CA140 in the 5th save is completley wrong. Most big teams throughout europe probably have atleast 2 u21 players which are way over a CA140 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TBH I think 130-140 CA is a bit high for most U21's in real life anyway - with obvious exceptions

These players shouldn't be hitting their peak until 25/26

SiDolman
09-12-2007, 17:13
let me put it another way. In the 4th and 5th save there are 119 and 100 players with over CA170, but there are no u21's in these totals. Out of the best 119 players at the moment could you not name a few u21's?

SiN8
09-12-2007, 18:51
Savegame 6: August 1, 2017

Total number of players: 52331...53322...53260...55119...55755...55817

Players under 21:

190 - 200 PA: 2.....6.....7.....10....7.....5
180 - 189 PA: 21....22....39....41....41....39
170 - 179 PA: 111...94....99....110...123...132
160 - 169 PA: 160...112...92....94....93....85

190 - 200 CA: 0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0
180 - 189 CA: 2.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0
170 - 179 CA: 0.....0.....1.....0.....0.....0
160 - 169 CA: 2.....6.....0.....0.....1.....0
150 - 159 CA: 12....13....4.....0.....1.....1
140 - 149 CA: 34....23....7.....2.....2.....4
130 - 139 CA: 71....70....24....18....22....16
120 - 129 CA: 183...110...59....77....76....60

Pace and acceleration &gt;= 15: 1666.....1357.....1033.....947.....944.....936

All-around athletes* : 113.....117.....38.....34.....36.....28

*Defined as pace & acceleration &gt;=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength &gt;=10

Players between 21 and 24:

190 - 200 PA: 6.....5.....3.....5.....10....9
180 - 189 PA: 39....29....21....19....31....36
170 - 179 PA: 92....110...99....79....89....103
160 - 169 PA: 227...189...139...93....80....85

190 - 200 CA: 0.....3.....2.....0.....0.....0
180 - 189 CA: 2.....3.....3.....1.....0.....3
170 - 179 CA: 15....25....24....9.....4.....5
160 - 169 CA: 24....65....57....17....23....27
150 - 159 CA: 60....156...133...95....51....58
140 - 149 CA: 173...280...290...182...136...130
130 - 139 CA: 353...540...475...356...234...241
120 - 129 CA: 746...821...818...539...423...391

Pace and acceleration &gt;= 15: 2016.....1300.....811.....564.....464.....423

All-around athletes* : 366.....331.....211.....139.....99.....79

*Defined as pace & acceleration &gt;=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength &gt;=10

All players

190 - 200 CA: 1.....5.....4.....6.....6.....2
180 - 189 CA: 18....23....28....16....10....14
170 - 179 CA: 68....95....105...97....84....65

Wasted Potential

Players who underachieved*: 302.....222.....104.....104.....120.....135

*Defined as players between 27 and 30 whose PA &gt;= 150, but their PA - CA &gt;= 20. These players are in their peak years, but have not come close to reaching their potential.


International Caps

Players under 25 with international caps: 1273..1280..1168..905...650...536
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 2.....13....21....11....2.....2
Oldest player &gt;= 170 CA with no caps: Lucas[30] - 181 CA
Highest CA without caps: Lucas[30] - 181 CA

England
Players under 25 with international caps: 13....7.....4.....3.....2.....1
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....5.....1.....0.....0

Spain
Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....5.....4.....2.....6.....4
Undeserved Callup - Three players with CAs of 140, 151 and 152. It's becoming somewhat of a habit for Spain

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....7.....5.....3.....0.....0

Italy
Players under 25 with international caps: 5.....9.....10....1.....2.....3
Undeserved Callup - Two players with CAs of 144 and 153

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....1.....2.....1.....0


France
Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....7.....6.....3.....1.....5
Undeserved Callup - Two players with CAs of 125 and 152. The 125 CA has been called up 9 times!! Do they really have no one better?

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....2.....6.....1.....0.....2
Biggest Snub - Phillippe Texier[24] - 167 CA

Germany
Players under 25 with international caps: 16....8.....1.....0.....2.....11
Undeserved Callup - Nine of the eleven under 25 players have less than 160 CA. The worst callups are 125, 125, 128 and 133 CA.

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....0.....2.....1.....0.....0

Holland
Players under 25 with international caps: 20....10....7.....2.....0.....4
Undeserved Callup - All four players are &lt; 160 CA with the worst at 133.

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....0.....1.....1.....0.....0

Brazil
Players under 25 with international caps: 21....13....9.....4.....2.....5
Undeserved Callup - Two players with 150 CA and 158 CA.

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....4.....3.....0.....0

Argentina
Players under 25 with international caps: 18....13....8.....3.....1.....1
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....1.....0.....0.....0

Analysis

Both under-21 and 21-24 group regens stats have stabilized. Compare it to savegame 1 and there are drastic differences. We are starting to see a decrease in CA in "all players" as real life players retire. It will be clear in a couple more years.

Due to the lowered CA, top international squads now regularly pick some truly undeserving players. For example, France has used a 125 CA right fullback 9 times. This is especially odd considering they have a 27 year old D RLC with 162 CA who has not been capped yet. In fact there are 12 players who &gt;= 170 CA, but no caps. But at least Pato finally got his first cap at 26 with a CA of 188.

Coop
09-12-2007, 19:23
I'm not using an editor so I cannot give specific details. However, having taken over as manager of Scotland in 2012 I have been shocked at the quality of player coming through. There is not one regen that has been good enough to get into the national squad, or even near it. I have an aging squad with no sign of quality youngsters on the horizon.

I was beaten by Lichtenstein and resigned in early 2013. All this despite being extremely successful as manager of Rangers.

James.Clench
09-12-2007, 21:07
Your Thread is truly Epic KUTGW

It unequivocally confirms a suspicion I’ve had for a long time, that the game isn’t play tested nearly enough, definitely isn’t play tested long enough i.e. into 2025, and WE are the people that do the majority of the play testing, and it is up to US to point out the NUMEROUS bugs. I think that SI have become ever more reliant on us over the last few releases to do the play testing for them.

Like you, I also like to play career games, and I am currently into 2018 with my Tottenham side, but at this point FM has become less of a game, and more of a doss-about, because it’s just too easy. As you have pointed out it is nearly impossible to find a “natural athlete” on the game, or even just a player who posses a modicum of pace and acceleration, the results of this are that defenders just get done for pace all the time, forwards and attacking midfielders simply run past defenders like they weren’t there. Take a look at this, Gabriel Agbonlahor (http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5913/fasttoogoodre1.jpg) in 2016, the same is also true for Scott Sinclair of Chelsea. Players armed only with the weapons of speed and acceleration will go on to score goals for fun, just look at Agbonlahor, he has finishing 12, yet 20 goals in 20 games tells its own story. I also concur with you regarding club teams and nations not recognising the ability of players, Banega, Ustari, Lulinha, and Pato are all uncapped on my game too, plus look at the club Agbonlahor’s at as well, they got him on a free because Villa didn’t think he was up to the grade.

I think that to solve the problem of low quality regens, the game needs to be tweaked so that;

1. Regens should have a better PA, they should also have better Aerobic and Strength stats, or more easily improvable strength and aerobic stats (through training)

2. AI Club managers and national managers should play youngsters more and “blood” them at an earlier age, good youngsters do exist, it’s just a matter of playing them more, and sooner so they reach their PA. As I did with Tim Lichte (http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6532/timlichte1uk6.jpg), a regen I found (without using MINIscout) then played him gradually, as you can see “Tim Lichte's History (http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/2655/timlichtehistcf7.jpg)” he’s had a very believable rise to become a first team regular, with a CA of 192 at the young age of 25. but this would never happen if he was managed by an AI manager, as they just play older players for longer.

You may also be interested to know that I am currently experimenting; I’ve edited all the Belarusian clubs so that they all have Training 20, Youth setup 20 and they all have Youth Academies, to see if it makes any difference to the quality of the regens. I’ll keep you posted with the results later, when I’ve done enough seasons.

Minez01
09-12-2007, 21:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Players under 21:

190 - 200 PA: 2.....6.....7.....10....7.....5
180 - 189 PA: 21....22....39....41....41....39
170 - 179 PA: 111...94....99....110...123...132
160 - 169 PA: 160...112...92....94....93....85

190 - 200 CA: 0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0
180 - 189 CA: 2.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0
170 - 179 CA: 0.....0.....1.....0.....0.....0
160 - 169 CA: 2.....6.....0.....0.....1.....0
150 - 159 CA: 12....13....4.....0.....1.....1
140 - 149 CA: 34....23....7.....2.....2.....4
130 - 139 CA: 71....70....24....18....22....16
120 - 129 CA: 183...110...59....77....76....60 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looking at this section of your experiment (which is fantastic, btw) I think one of the larger problems is poor youth development. The potential for great players is there, but they are either not being picked up early, or are not being developed properly by the time they hit 21-22.

Another issue I'd like to raise is the point of the rapidly dropping number of players in the 110-150 CA category. While this is dropping in-game, the numbers you have given don't lie, but there could be many more youth players with a CA of 120-150 who WILL reach their potential early on in their career. My point is that without data on every CA and PA level, it is still hard to determine whether what we are seeing is permanent reduction or simply a pattern that changes every generation.

But I will say fantastic work, gathering all this data is a great achievement, it really helps with some insight into how the game world works. Great job!

Minez01
09-12-2007, 21:44
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> PA of 120-150 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forgive my lack of proofreading http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Ross1
09-12-2007, 21:58
What I can get from that data.


Under 21 regens have just as much potential as the original players did. However, their current ability is a lot lower.

21-24 again potential is as good if not better than at the start of the game. But actually, you are seeing decent current ability here too (and overall its also similar). Which means, players are developing. They just dont immediately start as instant superstars.

In short, stop talking about this 'lowered CA' when actually your data shows that its still matching what it was at the start of the game. The only interesting thing is the lack of wonderkids, they are now having to train and get experience to get good.

It does show lowered physical stats as you progress. Maybe SI is reading into the all kids are now obese thing a bit too much.

Young players arent getting caps because they are taking more time to develop. I think we can safely say the second bit of data about young players with high CA not getting caps totally failed. Mainly because there are not as many young players WITH high CA.

10-12-2007, 03:47
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this more but the decline in physical stats is astounding. I'm assuming this must be a bug with the development of new players or their starting stats. To go from 2016 players with &gt;15 pace and acceleration to 423 10 years later is a pretty drastic change!

Great thread by the way SiN8!!

SiN8
10-12-2007, 05:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ross1:
What I can get from that data.


Under 21 regens have just as much potential as the original players did. However, their current ability is a lot lower.

21-24 again potential is as good if not better than at the start of the game. But actually, you are seeing decent current ability here too (and overall its also similar). Which means, players are developing. They just dont immediately start as instant superstars.

In short, stop talking about this 'lowered CA' when actually your data shows that its still matching what it was at the start of the game. The only interesting thing is the lack of wonderkids, they are now having to train and get experience to get good.

It does show lowered physical stats as you progress. Maybe SI is reading into the all kids are now obese thing a bit too much.

Young players arent getting caps because they are taking more time to develop. I think we can safely say the second bit of data about young players with high CA not getting caps totally failed. Mainly because there are not as many young players WITH high CA. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since youth are generated with lower CA, they have a much more difficult time reaching their PA. Compare savegame 3 (with all real life players) and savegame 6 (should be all regens) for 21-24 group. There's a substantial difference in quality.

As for talented youth not been selected, there are still problems.

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 2.....13....21....11....2.....2

Savegame 3 (with all real players) show 21 players who got snubbed. The only reason the number decreased after that is because the lack of regens &gt;= 165 CA. Pato got his first cap at 26. He was over 180 CA for 4 years before he got selected.

As far as taking longer for youth to develop, we'll have to wait a couple of years before that can verified. In 2017, there are only 18 regens that have &gt;= 170 CA. Averaging savegame 1 to savegame 3, you had about ~100 real life players with over 170 CA. I don't believe that regens will develop that well.

Ched
10-12-2007, 05:24
It will be interesting to see what SI have to say about this (if that is they choose not to ignore it...) as i've seen a few threads with people challenging the quality of regens and all they've got from SI is "it's fine" and that's been the end of it. It will be interesting to see them argue with just numbers.

chopper99
10-12-2007, 06:13
A very interesting experiment with some startling results.

It seems clear that there is no problem with the number of players generated who have the potential to be excellent. But the figures you've given clearly show that there is a problem with the number of young players with a lot of ability.
It seems that more regens should appear who have a CA that is a little closer to their PA. Otherwise you'll just not see any wonderkids when you get further into the game and all players will take until their mid 20's to get near their potential. Some players should be quality when they are younger, as in real life.

What's more alarming is the drop in the number of players with decent physical attributes. There has been a dramatic decrease hear and this definitely needs further investigation.

KUTGW.

Neil Brock
10-12-2007, 06:14
Great thread here, really great in-depth look at the regens. If you've got any of the save games avaliable, we'd really like to take a look at these so if you could upload them to the FTP we can use these statistics to have a good look at the regens. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Akim
10-12-2007, 06:29
actually i have to say i am satisfied with the way youth develop now. in fm2007 i had after 15 seasons too many players that were class (ca 175++). it was just too much and like 20 high lvl teams were all rated the same (genie scout). now its rly making the difference between high lvl teams


i hope it wont be changed, maybe only rebalance the physical stats a bit

LutonNil
10-12-2007, 07:02
For anyone that is interested or have been reading my footbll Legends (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=21019056&f=521102691&m=7112056663&r=2712072763#2712072763) thread - there are some interesting developments.

Players with amazing PA almost reaching their CA by the age of 20

Very good attributes - Mario Kempes has 19 Pace and 20 Acceleration - stamina and strength are still low (12/13) but what do you expect at 20

Brazil and Argentina U20 teams full of future superstars (only entered South American legends so far) and Di Stefano has joined Man Utd and has broken into the national team by 19

All these players have random rep, a PA of between -8 and -10 (six players with -10) and have been put in their original club so basically they are on a par with the regens that are coming through - seem to be developing nicely http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Chilliconcarnie
10-12-2007, 07:10
Loving the thread here


Dont know how easy it would be to track this but...

Is it possible for you to find out how many new players there are into each field? for instance in the second save, players under21 you had 6 players of 190-200PA, the next year it was 7. Were 6 of the 7 the same from the previous save or did any of the 6 move up into 21-24?

That way we can see how many new U21's enter each field each time.

Richard76
10-12-2007, 07:28
This is a really interesting read.

Also, the results are somewhat alarming for those of us who like a long term game.

Has this been raised in the bugs forum?

Looking forward to the next installment.

Good work SiN8

James.Clench
10-12-2007, 07:36
Just a quick question, How many of the "Natural Atheletes" are defenders? I only ask becasuse as I posted earlier it seems in the future all defenders are slow always get out paced.

cheers, KUTGW

Erithtotl
10-12-2007, 07:41
I'm wondering if we need a seperate thread about the decline in physical stats. While there can be some debate on whether the current crop of players is overrated and that's why future regens are less potent, there can be little doubt that physical stats decline to a seriously poor level after 10 years or so and it's a game destroying bug in many ways.

sjm
10-12-2007, 09:40
In past versions of FM, I always had the suspicion that the problem is less to do with the overall quality of regens - they've improved massively over the years, but with how the AI handles its squad with respect to young players.

In past games, it seemed to me that at the start I'd end up rounding up most of the talented youngsters whilst the big teams in would rather spend silly money on established players (high reputation). Whilst they did buy talented young players (low reputation), they let them rot on the benches instead of giving them playing time. Then, 2-3 seasons later, as they reached their early 20s, the players would be sold on to lesser teams.

They'd start playing for the lesser teams, but it was a case of too little too late. By then they were stunted in their development, and playing lower league football would only get them so far.

Things would change one the original players started to retire en mass (about 5-6 seasons in). At this point the AI was basically forced to start playing the newer players.

But as a human manager you could buck the trend by signing and PLAYING youngsters, who would go on to develop to be great players.

My suspicion is that the real culprit here is not the youth development or regens in general, but the AI's squad sense, transfer policies and youth development policies. I can't help feeling that it's a reputation problem. You've all no doubt noted that player's reputation seems to play too much of a role throughout the game - transfers, international call ups, scout reports, ass man reports etc. To me, this is an indication that reputation is used as a "crutch" to help the AI assess how good a player is. Unfortunately it's a case of:
Most high reputation players are good, but not all good players have a high reputation.

I suspect that the AI is selecting its team based on reputation too, as well as CA, and that this means that some poor unknown kid isn't given a chance to play whilst galactico supremo is in the squad. The AI needs to be more proactive in developing youths, and not buying up highly talented youngsters just to waste away in the reserves.

As for regen wonderkids, I haven't played FM08, but there were a fair few in previous versions. It'd be interesting to see whether things don't pick up again in your experiment once the real players have all disappeared and it's a more level playing field. Plus, you need to expect some sort of statistical fluctuations, otherwise we'd be back to CM2.

LutonNil
10-12-2007, 09:57
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My suspicion is that the real culprit here is not the youth development or regens in general, but the AI's squad sense, transfer policies and youth development policies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point

Sometimes it seems the AI has low intelligence

Lucho_
10-12-2007, 10:41
Really great experiment. Well done!

I would always love to see some SI input into this kind of thread. I understand they are probably (and justly) fed up with the forums by now, but it would be interesting to know their opinions on the subject.

Bongo-Bongo
10-12-2007, 10:54
A very interesting thread, and I can't say that I have been suprised by the results either. I'm only into the second season in my game, but I can see that very few of my youth players have developed much at all so far. And my young players who are playing in the first team have only made very small improvements as well, and these have all been playing very well.

Something that would be interesting would be if somebody did the same experiment, but with an unpatched version of the game. Unless my memory serves me badly, I seem to remember that my players developed better then they are since the patch has been released, so it would be interesting if this was the case.

LutonNil
10-12-2007, 11:22
What concerns me is that the players in my first team don't seem to be developing and are worth 3K and the reserves that don't play are worth 50K

Liamstar
10-12-2007, 11:59
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lucho_:
Really great experiment. Well done!

I would always love to see some SI input into this kind of thread. I understand they are probably (and justly) fed up with the forums by now, but it would be interesting to know their opinions on the subject. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They really shouldn't be fed up of the forum.... they are a business selling a product. This is giving them valuable information to improve their product, ignoring the wishes of people who buy your product is surely commercial suicide?

I have stopped playing the game because i think it is a waste of time, even though i still do ok it just frustrates me at the amount of bugs. i'll give it another try when the next patch comes out and if it still isn't fixed i'll not be buying any future editions!

no moaning, no whining - just express my feelings with my wallet.

ben sellars
10-12-2007, 14:55
SiN8 you are as ABSOLUTE LEGEND for creating this thread. Firstly I would like to complement your on the logical layout of your statistics and the chosen feilds you have measured. This proves a few things that I have come to through while plying a save game for 7 seasons

1. FM 2008 manages to keep a constant amount of potential ability within the game.

2. New regens (i.e players under 18) on average have alot lower CA than players under 18 at the start of the game.

3. This means that althrough these regens have the high PA, due to lower CA they are less likely to fully their potential. I've only browsed the statistics but it looks like non of the rgens fully their PA.

4. Due to low CA and poor mental attributes this makes the regen even less like to full thier pontential.

4. Regens with high PA (i.e 170+) seem to be generated at random clubs. Whereas at the start of a new game players with high PA are normal at a large club; which has top training facilities and staff. This means the regen does not develop as fast and also is less to be spot by a big club. Also these regens probably have very low world rep, making diffucilt for scouts to find.

5. It is well known that any player in FM does his main development at the ages of 15-23. Now due to the random nature of regens unless you are lucky; you probably won't scout or find a high PA regen until they are 17-18. If they have been at a smaller club this is 2-3 years development they have missed thus the chance if fulling their PA is gone.

6. Even with good scouts they will not give the approiate amount of stars for a high PA regen due to such a low CA.

7. Clear on average all the regns have very poor physical stats.

8. Alot of regens seem to have random attributes. I.e a regen of PA 190 has:
17- long throws
18 - aggresion
Good attributesl back, but these are stats from my promising striker. At a start of the game; the players with high PA on average have rights attributes in the area's for their position. Thus even if they fully the PA, they still ain't as good as prevoius stars.

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif SiN8 you are as ABSOLUTE LEGEND http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

andrew bowditch
10-12-2007, 14:56
whats cm like? is the new one of that any good?

James.Clench
10-12-2007, 15:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Liamstar:

I have stopped playing the game because i think it is a waste of time, even though i still do ok it just frustrates me at the amount of bugs. i'll give it another try when the next patch comes out and if it still isn't fixed i'll not be buying any future editions!

no moaning, no whining - just express my feelings with my wallet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too, Marks and Spencers made a mistake several years ago in believing that their customers wouldn't shop anywhere else, so M&S took advantage of this and instead of listening to what people wanted, they just told them what they wanted, the result was that people just shopped elsewhere. I hope SI dont make the same mistake.

kaNovi
10-12-2007, 15:09
please do not make this thread into a whine discussion, there are plenty of threads to do that in..........

earmack
10-12-2007, 15:12
One small cautionary note: CA/PA is not the be all and end all, I have only played FM 05 onwards, but I have seen MANY players with low CA/PA and even low STATS playing exceptionally well for the competition they are in(for example I had a right back in the PREMIERSHIP who had poor stats and only 13's in the important ones marking/natural fitness/ pace etc... and a CA of 120ish and he averaged 7+ for 3 seasons, there are many other examples I've seen like this). I'm hoping I'm not the only person who's noticed that quite a lot of players play better than their CA and stats would suggest.

earmack
10-12-2007, 15:14
Additionally I have seen a number of players with CA+ 180 who are absolutely rubbish their entire careers.

randomj
10-12-2007, 15:44
as has been previously said this is a great thread with in-depth research

id just like to say very well done for the initiative

the results have made me really quite annoyed
what is the point of playing past the fourth or so season when all the regens are not as good as the established players

im someone that really only buys young players
i rarely buy someone over 24
so if all regens arent up to standard for my arsenal team what is the point of playing

i think until this is fixed i cant be bothered to play anymore because it seems like a waste of time to me now and im disappointed with si in the fact that the didnt check that regens were being produced of a high quality
i found nothing wrong with regens in 07 and had a number of games i played into the 20s with still a high quality squad

one possible reason ive come up with for the lack of regen quality maybe that they are trying to get them to reach their peak later in their careers as in 07 it seemed that most had peaked by 22 or so

again good thread and i hope ive added new food for thought for everyone reading this

eldereth
10-12-2007, 16:14
I really like the fact that reaching your potential is much rarer in FM08, I always thought it unrealistic to be able to predict with 90% certainty which player will develop in a world class player by just looking at CA/PA levels at a certain age.

More worrying though is the complete lack of wonderkids, and my main concern is the astounding drop in physical ability of players. This would implicate that finding a fast player or a player with high jumping could tear apart the league even if they have no technique to speak of. This also means that you as a human player will have a huge advantage over the AI because you'll be able to compensate the lower physical stats by increased physical training, whereas the AI will probably not respond to the low physical stats, meaning your players will end up more balanced.

That's if you presume the problem is with the AI training and not with the regens themselves.

In short: I like what SI has done, but please a bit more 'wonder'kids and a higher physical standard, then everything would be perfect for me (in this department of the game, that is)

matthiele
10-12-2007, 16:39
actually eldereth there were similar problems (and threads) about fm2007 but i think it was all fixed by the second patch. hopefully si get it fixed soon as well because this is a vital part of the game that is a key reason people play. i cant really understand why it isnt checked properly beforehand but o well.

kennec
10-12-2007, 22:10
hye sin8. u stopped this resarch?

LutonNil
10-12-2007, 22:25
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kennec:
hye sin8. u stopped this resarch? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let the geezer get some sleep http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

SiN8
10-12-2007, 22:54
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kennec:
hye sin8. u stopped this resarch? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm away on business this week. Don't have access to my home pc. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I'll update it when I get back.

kennec
10-12-2007, 23:51
coool man

i realy like the work u do/did. i would like to make this my self if i had the time for it.

gl with your buzniz $$$

kaNovi
11-12-2007, 02:48
some of you should stop the moaning! its a good experiment, but some of you just use this thread as another "flame the si thread".

im in 2022 and players seems fine. maybee theres a lack of wonderkids and phys stats are not the best, but come on, its perfectly fine to keep playing.
"oh im gonna stop after 4 season because there are no good youngsters" thats bull

ben sellars
11-12-2007, 06:24
kaNovi have you even look at the reasrch statistics in depth.

orion318
11-12-2007, 07:35
For me this thread proves that there isn't a big bug with the regens but a difference in what the researchers rate and what the regen system does.

Maybe this should be matched up a little for the future so that the difference isn't as large.

But since the regen world is pretty balanced out i think the system looks to be working well.

SiN8
11-12-2007, 08:06
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by orion318:
For me this thread proves that there isn't a big bug with the regens but a difference in what the researchers rate and what the regen system does.

Maybe this should be matched up a little for the future so that the difference isn't as large.

But since the regen world is pretty balanced out i think the system looks to be working well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The researchers are looking at players IRL and coming up with CA/PA. From this, they have come up with a ratio of good/bad players. The programmers have a different idea and, intentionally or not, created a regen system that had much different ratio that the researchers.

Judge the researchers as you well, but I think they do a good job. If they say X number of players IRL have &gt;= 170, then the programmers should make sure the regen system stays consistent to that number.

cudman
11-12-2007, 08:54
very interesting, you cant argue with those figures. lets all burn the game now. oh yeah thats right i didnt buy 08 because of all the problems i heard about it.
very good experiment!!

LLHallJ
11-12-2007, 09:38
This thread is an absolutley wonderful demonstration of how users can take steps to improve the games they love instead of jumping on to a forum and whinging about every little thing. SiN8, I salute you sir.

The one thing missing from this thread is a post with that lovely blue Sports Interactive logo attached to it. If ever a thread merited a response from the powers that be, it is this one. What does SI make of this research? Are they going to take steps to improve the youth development engine in the game? Perhaps this methodology could be used in future play-testing?

Before they even start thinking about makeing FM Live available to the masses, Sports Interactive need to sit up and take notice of things like this, since a MMO game lives and dies by its long term playablility. Things like this could be the difference between a World of Warcraft style success or a Matrix Onine style failure.

chelsea_pumas
11-12-2007, 09:50
There has actually been a post on page 2 by a SI guy saying that they're very interested in this and are following the thread. They also ask SiN8 to upload a save game.

chelsea_pumas
11-12-2007, 09:52
No blue badge but nbrocky is part of the testing team so that counts.

Ched
11-12-2007, 10:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nbrocky:
Great thread here, really great in-depth look at the regens. If you've got any of the save games avaliable, we'd really like to take a look at these so if you could upload them to the FTP we can use these statistics to have a good look at the regens. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Am i the only one that thinks it's weird that the testers didn't try this themselves?

I know there are more important rhings to test for but after the first handful of threads questioning the regens maybe someone should have tried it?

Let's have an open beta and get rid of more of these niggles!

Riz Remes
11-12-2007, 15:59
Just because we don't reply to every thread does not mean it is ignored. Especially if it is constructive and makes good reading http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Our testers have done similar analysis on the player progression during testing as seen here and will continue to do so in the future. It is indeed good to get more opinions on the player development matters and especially opinions with factual support as well. We will be looking at both our internal analysis as well as feedback such as this thread as we continue to finetune things in the code.

Balancing such a complex part of the game as player progression is not something that can be done overnight as the development of a player is affected by a lot of variables (clubs, coaches, injuries etc.) outside of just the starting ability and potential. Naturally the best we can aim for is to try and make the future generations of players in the game reflect the starting database as closely as we can. And like I said above, we do make similar internal analysis as well over the long term player development and we will continue to finetune things.

Oncho Shaldzhiyan
11-12-2007, 16:45
Great work, SiN8!!!

denniswinchester
12-12-2007, 03:26
For me one of the major underlying issues here is that the AI does not know how to develop its players. That is what is at the heart of it. Players don't reach their PA because the AI does not know how to train and play youngsters in the right way.
The AI, for example, does not use reserve team/B-team to develop players between 19-22 years old at all, which means that much of their development is stunted... I've tried talking about this for a few versions of the game...

darrkespur
12-12-2007, 04:22
I think the points raised both here and in the transfer system are very similar in cause/solution. As some have mentioned, the AI is not selecting these potentially excellent young players adn so they never reach their potential. In the real world a promising player is easy to spot and they get played early so they can learn, even if they make mistakes. It's similar to the transfer problem - the Ai doesn't organise its squad well enough to decide who to buy.

I've done a little programming and I don't think it would be extremely tough to program in an AI selection 'personality'. This could vary depending on the manager - so some would prefer small squads of two players per position like Mourinho, some would prefer older cheap players like Harry Redknapp, others would prefer the Spurs approach of young, local players.

By adding this feature - which defines the values the AI manager gives to players, and the number of players per position an AI manager is aiming to have in his squad, you could drastically reduce the amount of issues people raise in a number of areas of the game.

Add in a factor about the CA, PA and form of a player (I think more players should be bought and sold on poor/good form rather than their hidden stats), so that an AI player can 'see' the places in their squad that are weak and replace them with better/more promising players, then sell the lower ranked players, would stimulate more realistic trades and give value to the mid-range CA players that currently can't be given away - if the lesser teams in the division or the higher teams in the division below can see this player isn't playing (which should be another factor in the algorithm) and is better than the player currently playing in the target's position, the lower team should attempt to buy them, and the player should want to move downward for first team football more than currently.

You could also put a higher priority on AI playing players in their strongest position to stop the 'Theirry Henry at LM' problems and avoid screwing up the assignments of players in each position - the AI manager should have a definite first choice position for each player and rarely consider them at other positions when calculating its transfer needs.

Add in a factor that an Ai manager should want to blood youngsters in lower-reputation matches and at the end of games and you start to solve the development problem too. In particular lower (ie not top6) teams should have far more preference for trying out youngsters than they do now. If a good youngster comes through at a team like Derby or Bristol City, you can bet they will play them a lot more than the AI does now (although their personality can change according to how much they want to risk the youngster, like Moyes with Rooney)

I feel the match engine, player stats and character has improved but without implementing a similar level of complexity to AI managers and the way they think, the game will continue to stagnate. It amazes me such an algorithm isn't already a key part of Football Manager.

Kill Rock Stars
12-12-2007, 05:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Riz:
Just because we don't reply to every thread does not mean it is ignored. Especially if it is constructive and makes good reading http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Our testers have done similar analysis on the player progression during testing as seen here and will continue to do so in the future. It is indeed good to get more opinions on the player development matters and especially opinions with factual support as well. We will be looking at both our internal analysis as well as feedback such as this thread as we continue to finetune things in the code.

Balancing such a complex part of the game as player progression is not something that can be done overnight as the development of a player is affected by a lot of variables (clubs, coaches, injuries etc.) outside of just the starting ability and potential. Naturally the best we can aim for is to try and make the future generations of players in the game reflect the starting database as closely as we can. And like I said above, we do make similar internal analysis as well over the long term player development and we will continue to finetune things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

with all respect, and while acknowledging that getting the balance right is difficult, this is now the fourth version of football manager. the regen system isn't working for long term games, never has worked, and has actually gotten worse since fully patched fm07. how many versions of the game will it take?

James.Clench
12-12-2007, 05:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by denniswinchester:
For me one of the major underlying issues here is that the AI does not know how to develop its players. That is what is at the heart of it. Players don't reach their PA because the AI does not know how to train and play youngsters in the right way.
The AI, for example, does not use reserve team/B-team to develop players between 19-22 years old at all, which means that much of their development is stunted... I've tried talking about this for a few versions of the game... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, in my game Arsenal won the league with about 4 games to spare, yet they continued to play a full strength side for the remaining games even though they were still in Europe as well. They even played a stong side in the League Cup all the way until they were knocked out in the semi's. The kids never got a look-in, so its no wonder were seeing a lot of "wasted talent"

Another thing that is stupid is that a team like Arsenal or Man Utd etc will pay £25 million plus for a regen on the game who plays in midfield for example who has CA145 and PA190
yet they wont give a chance to a regen in their youth team with CA115 and PA190. Changes need to be made.

xouman
12-12-2007, 08:26
I have read all the posts. Very good job from SiN8 and more of you. Now I'll tell my opinion:

-As you have said, PA is good, and CA of regens 30 surely will be ok. But CA for youngsters aged &lt; 21 does not look like IRL. The game is playable, but it's weird to see lots of squads with dominating old players. Similar with physical attributes, with the difference that conference teams will have lots of chances against big teams in 2030 if their players have similar physical attributes.

-I think the problem is related with players improving. In the game players don't improve quickly when:

-They reach their potential. So they don't improve at all (well, if they improve in an area, they lose in another).
-They grow older.
-They have an injury.
-They don't have good facilities + coaches.
-They don't have good hidden attributes + determination.

This is true? I honestly don't know. Statistics from SiN8 say this weird? things:

-Players could raise more more CA points aged 23 than 17 with similar conditions.
-Players could improve very little being 17, playing and with nice coaches/facilities (unless that player trained in a very bad way).



In fm2008 players improve a lot comparing to real life (I don't have said they improve quickly, I just said they improve a lot). This is why existing players quickly reach their PA (look at saved games from 2009 and 2011) and because of this regens start with low CA: to prevent all of them to fill their PA. As I have said, it may work fine with regens at 30, but makes an awesome gap between players aged 20 and 30. IRL a team of players aged 20 could beat a team of players aged 30 (I mean 30, not 21-30) with similar conditions. Think about a team of best English players born in 1977-1978 against a team of best English players born in 1987-1988. Surely first team should win, but that match would be close. In FM in 2030 first team will crush the youngsters.

Players improvement must be revamped or tweaked at least, in order to have good CA regens.

hyperion479
12-12-2007, 09:26
I think several people have raised a very interesting (and probably crucial) point.

To me, it seems the reason the regens have such poor CA is the fact that the AI is poor at developing young talent. Just as the AI struggles to recognize that at some point very talented, lower rep national prodigies should be playing ahead of less talented, higher rep geezers(as this experiment has pointed out), club AI rarely forgoes an aging former talent for a wonderkid unless the superstar hits the dramatic part of the decline phase.

Granted, not all clubs/nations/managers should give the same opportunities to youngsters to develop. Similar to RL, clubs/nations that are struggling or underperforming should tend to afford youngsters more opportunities to break into the first team. And maybe as someone suggested earlier in this thread, managers should have a more distinct mentality in their team selections and transfers that biases them more towards certain age preference and development styles.

Crabby3
12-12-2007, 11:37
great great thread,just wondering were did you find there PA and CA?

Ellesthyan
12-12-2007, 13:25
I'd like to applaud Darrkespur's excellent post. I agree completely with him that the AI needs to manage their squad in a much more realistic and intelligent way. At the moment the AI managers are pretty much stupid and it's sometimes painfully obvious.

This needs to be a high priority for SI, and I'd rather see one or multiple patches devoted to this than waiting for next year's game, so we can actually give immediate feedback.

DMaster2
12-12-2007, 14:00
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crabby3:
great great thread,just wondering were did you find there PA and CA? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Using the editor or scouting programs (like geniescout and Mini SE

dr-nix
12-12-2007, 15:05
Have you noticed if any big talents show up in small clubs ?!... IRL that happens but because the bigger clubs in their area usually pick them before they get famous some people think only bigger clubs generate talented players (i mean with high PA)

lww23
12-12-2007, 15:14
chaps - going off at a tangent i was hoping some one could help me, i'm illiterate when it comes to downloads ive got the 8.01 patch ready at my disposal by there's a few to choose from, i need to download it as ive experienced similar problems to other members on the dec 2009 crash dumps which link do i click and then what happens after that ... i need a step by step foolproof guide or directions as to the where abouts of one if you would be so kind ...

Erithtotl
13-12-2007, 07:00
One thing I've always wondered about as far as player development:

whenever you take over a new club, or ask the AI to automatically assign coaches, the default is to have every coach doing every training type they are allowed. The result is that you have a bunch of coaches training each type of trianing not very well. Any half-decent human player is going to specialize their coaches, getting much more out of each training category.

Is this how the AI does it when it manages a team? It's been this way since the new training mechanism was introduced, and would seem to me to partially explain the poor player development.

Of course, this ignores the other issues, like too few high PA players and too low physical stats, but that's another story.

JAStewart
13-12-2007, 07:14
Legendary thread

Joeskeppi
13-12-2007, 07:36
Great thread, hat's off you to you sir.

Only thing I find annoying is it took someone at home a small amount of time to test this and analyze some results. Why couldn't this have been done by someone before the game was released?

stumostro
13-12-2007, 07:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erithtotl:
One thing I've always wondered about as far as player development:

whenever you take over a new club, or ask the AI to automatically assign coaches, the default is to have every coach doing every training type they are allowed. The result is that you have a bunch of coaches training each type of trianing not very well. Any half-decent human player is going to specialize their coaches, getting much more out of each training category.

Is this how the AI does it when it manages a team? It's been this way since the new training mechanism was introduced, and would seem to me to partially explain the poor player development.

Of course, this ignores the other issues, like too few high PA players and too low physical stats, but that's another story. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that is a problem, although they don't normally assign them to every training type but 2 or 3, which is rubbish, it means that although you have 2 coaches doing Aerobic training, the overall schedule only has 3 stars, whereas if each coach was specialising with only one training type they can get the full 7 stars.

xouman
13-12-2007, 09:24
I have thought about this thread, and the problem is clearly not all due to improving as I said before: initial CA for regens seems to be the major problem.

-In initial scenario 300 players didn't nearly achieve their PA

-In second scenario only 100 players didn't nearly achieve their PA

First conclusion: players improve, maybe further than IRL (according to researchers; I think they perform very good their tasks). Otherwise, there will be more players far from their PA.

-In future (future = only regens) scenarios a reasonable amount of players won't nearly achieve their PA

Second conclusion: as players start with low CA, it's difficult to them to achieve their PA, even if they improve it more than IRL.

I think the solution is not make quicker players development, but make more regens start to similar CA than their PA. Great players don't dramatically improve in short time: they are already good before, maybe in bad morale or position, but good indeed.

route1
13-12-2007, 09:38
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hyperion479:
Granted, not all clubs/nations/managers should give the same opportunities to youngsters to develop. Similar to RL, clubs/nations that are struggling or underperforming should tend to afford youngsters more opportunities to break into the first team. And maybe as someone suggested earlier in this thread, managers should have a more distinct mentality in their team selections and transfers that biases them more towards certain age preference and development styles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps in the future "youth development" could be an additional manager stat to allow for this?

SiN8
13-12-2007, 11:43
Tracking players - Savegame 6

Lulinha - 27 yr - AMC - Roma
2007 - 104/187
2009 - 133/187
2011 - 150/187
2013 - 174/187
2015 - 176/187
2017 - 180/187

Lulinha is playing well for Roma and was rewarded with his first cap for Brazil at age 25.

Dean Vaughn - 26 yr - DC - Chivas USA
2007 - 66/189
2009 - 68/189
2011 - 73/189
2013 - 82/189
2015 - 98/189
2017 - 115/189

Strange things in the MLS. Dean played regularly for Chivas USA for one season before being released on free. Los Angeles picked him up and released him within 4 days. Then Chivas USA signs him again and has Dean as a regular in the next season. Anyways, Dean at 24-26 did improve 17 points. If only his development was not stunted for the first 6 season...BYU Cougars can't be that bad.

Thiago - 26 yr - MC - Inter
2007 - 90/173
2009 - 124/173
2011 - 151/173
2013 - 165/173
2015 - 168/173
2017 - 168/173

Played well for Inter despite not improving.

SiN8
13-12-2007, 11:45
Savegame 7: August 1, 2019

Total number of players: 52331...53322...53260...55119...55755...55817...55 774

Real Players left: 11869

Players under 21:

190 - 200 PA: 2.....6.....7.....10....7.....5.....2
180 - 189 PA: 21....22....39....41....41....39....41
170 - 179 PA: 111...94....99....110...123...132...155
160 - 169 PA: 160...112...92....94....93....85....93

190 - 200 CA: 0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0
180 - 189 CA: 2.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0
170 - 179 CA: 0.....0.....1.....0.....0.....0.....0
160 - 169 CA: 2.....6.....0.....0.....1.....0.....1
150 - 159 CA: 12....13....4.....0.....1.....1.....0
140 - 149 CA: 34....23....7.....2.....2.....4.....6
130 - 139 CA: 71....70....24....18....22....16....27
120 - 129 CA: 183...110...59....77....76....60....70

Pace and acceleration &gt;= 15: 1666.....1357.....1033.....947.....944.....936.... .960

All-around athletes* : 113.....117.....38.....34.....36.....28.....23

*Defined as pace & acceleration &gt;=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength &gt;=10

Players between 21 and 24:

190 - 200 PA: 6.....5.....3.....5.....10....9.....9
180 - 189 PA: 39....29....21....19....31....36....47
170 - 179 PA: 92....110...99....79....89....103...101
160 - 169 PA: 227...189...139...93....80....85....79

190 - 200 CA: 0.....3.....2.....0.....0.....0.....0
180 - 189 CA: 2.....3.....3.....1.....0.....3.....1
170 - 179 CA: 15....25....24....9.....4.....5.....5
160 - 169 CA: 24....65....57....17....23....27....29
150 - 159 CA: 60....156...133...95....51....58....51
140 - 149 CA: 173...280...290...182...136...130...125
130 - 139 CA: 353...540...475...356...234...241...254
120 - 129 CA: 746...821...818...539...423...391...377

Pace and acceleration &gt;= 15: 2016.....1300.....811.....564.....464.....423..... 417

All-around athletes* : 366.....331.....211.....139.....99.....79.....73

*Defined as pace & acceleration &gt;=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength &gt;=10

All players

190 - 200 CA: 1.....5.....4.....6.....6.....2.....2
180 - 189 CA: 18....23....28....16....10....14....11
170 - 179 CA: 68....95....105...97....84....65....67

Wasted Potential

Players who underachieved*: 302.....222.....104.....104.....120.....135.....14 6

*Defined as players between 27 and 30 whose PA &gt;= 150, but their PA - CA &gt;= 20. These players are in their peak years, but have not come close to reaching their potential.


International Caps

Players under 25 with international caps: 1273..1280..1168..905...650...536...574
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 2.....13....21....11....2.....2.....3
Oldest player &gt;= 170 CA with no caps: Lucas[32] - 170 CA
Highest CA without caps: Toni Kroos[29] - 175 CA

England
Players under 25 with international caps: 13....7.....4.....3.....2.....1.....5
Undeserved Callup - One player with 149.
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....5.....1.....0.....0.....2
Biggest snub - Jamie Bagnall[24] - 168 CA

Spain
Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....5.....4.....2.....6.....4.....4
Undeserved Callup - Two players with CAs of 132 and 143.

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....7.....5.....3.....0.....0.....0

Italy
Players under 25 with international caps: 5.....9.....10....1.....2.....3.....10
Undeserved Callup - Six player under 160

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....1.....2.....1.....0.....0


France
Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....7.....6.....3.....1.....5.....7
Undeserved Callup - Six players under 160. The 130 CA fullback now has 14 caps.

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....2.....6.....1.....0.....2.....1
Biggest snub - Cedric Benoit[24] - 167 CA


Germany
Players under 25 with international caps: 16....8.....1.....0.....2.....11.....9
Undeserved Callup - Truly awful. 121, 124, 139 are the worst out of the six players under

160.

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....0.....2.....1.....0.....0.....0

Holland
Players under 25 with international caps: 20....10....7.....2.....0.....4.....1
Undeserved Callup - The lone youngster has 134 CA.

Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....0.....1.....1.....0.....0.....0

Brazil
Players under 25 with international caps: 21....13....9.....4.....2.....5.....4
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....4.....3.....0.....0

Argentina
Players under 25 with international caps: 18....13....8.....3.....1.....1.....5
Undeserved Callup - Two players with 132 and 152.
Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps: 0.....1.....1.....0.....0.....0.....0

Analysis

Nothing too surprising here. Overall quality of league is a bit diminished. There's only 47 regens over 170 CA.

International squads are full of scrubs. Players with 120 and 130 CA are now playing for the top nations. Lucas is now 32 years old and still have not played for Brazil despite having over 180CA during his peak. Granted, there's a Brazilian ST with 190 CA ahead of him, but surely Lucas could have been called up as a substitute?

The most injust snub is Toni Kroos. The German national team are playing AMCs with 146 and 151 and 171 CA. Their 4rd AMC is actually an grayed-out player!! How is Toni Kroos not been selected here? He's not retired from international football and he's doing well at Man City. Most of all, he has the highest PA. Why is a grayed-out player created when Germany has Toni available?

SiN8
13-12-2007, 11:51
Tracking players - Savegame 7

Lulinha - 29 yr - AMC - Roma
2007 - 104/187
2009 - 133/187
2011 - 150/187
2013 - 174/187
2015 - 176/187
2017 - 180/187
2019 - 179/187

Starting to see first signs of decline. Still playing well for Roma.

Dean Vaughn - 28 yr - DC - Kansas City
2007 - 66/189
2009 - 68/189
2011 - 73/189
2013 - 82/189
2015 - 98/189
2017 - 115/189
2019 - 137/189

After 5 seasons for Chivas USA (not including the 4 day stint at Los Angeles), Dean signed a new contract with Kansas City. His improvement is astonishing considering he was 26-28. He's actually a pretty compenent player now.

Thiago - 28 yr - MC - Inter
2007 - 90/173
2009 - 124/173
2011 - 151/173
2013 - 165/173
2015 - 168/173
2017 - 168/173
2019 - 168/173

Nothing interesting here. Doing well. Stopped improving.

alwo
13-12-2007, 11:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The most injust snub is Toni Kroos. The German national team are playing AMCs with 146 and 151 and 171 CA. Their 4rd AMC is actually an grayed-out player!! How is Toni Kroos not been selected here? He's not retired from international football and he's doing well at Man City. Most of all, he has the highest PA. Why is a grayed-out player created when Germany has Toni available? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you playing with the fake.lnc file unchanged from when you bought the game? In this instance it could be that Germany aren't 'allowed' to call up real players. However that's probably wrong. Can't think of anything else to explain it.

SiN8
13-12-2007, 12:04
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alwo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The most injust snub is Toni Kroos. The German national team are playing AMCs with 146 and 151 and 171 CA. Their 4rd AMC is actually an grayed-out player!! How is Toni Kroos not been selected here? He's not retired from international football and he's doing well at Man City. Most of all, he has the highest PA. Why is a grayed-out player created when Germany has Toni available? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you playing with the fake.lnc file unchanged from when you bought the game? In this instance it could be that Germany aren't 'allowed' to call up real players. However that's probably wrong. Can't think of anything else to explain it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That explains it. Thank you alwo. Please disregard all tests regarding Germany. My fault.

xouman
14-12-2007, 02:17
One thing that has been not pointed is the non-pyramidal PA now. In initial scenario, 190 PA &lt;&lt; 180 PA &lt;&lt; 170 PA &lt;&lt; 160 PA, but after that, there are always more regens with 170-179 PA than 160-169 PA. Pretty weird IMHO :/

The progression of Dean Vaughn is something that I had expected. Players are really improving now, the problem with youngsters is not improving but initial CA.

And I think that "Players under 25 &gt;= 165 CA without caps" is not longer useful: there are far less players under 25 &gt;= 165 PA. Maybe "Number of players capped with lower CA than the uncapped player with highest CA" or "Number of uncapped players with higher CA than the lowest CA capped player" will add more information. Only my opinion http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Sir_Liam
14-12-2007, 05:22
The improvement of Dean Vaughn later on in his career is very good to see, and shows that players can continue developing at an older age, rather than up until 23.

thebigman1985
14-12-2007, 05:45
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alwo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The most injust snub is Toni Kroos. The German national team are playing AMCs with 146 and 151 and 171 CA. Their 4rd AMC is actually an grayed-out player!! How is Toni Kroos not been selected here? He's not retired from international football and he's doing well at Man City. Most of all, he has the highest PA. Why is a grayed-out player created when Germany has Toni available? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you playing with the fake.lnc file unchanged from when you bought the game? In this instance it could be that Germany aren't 'allowed' to call up real players. However that's probably wrong. Can't think of anything else to explain it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

where is this file i can delete so the german nt plays with real players?

DMaster2
14-12-2007, 06:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thebigman1985:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alwo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The most injust snub is Toni Kroos. The German national team are playing AMCs with 146 and 151 and 171 CA. Their 4rd AMC is actually an grayed-out player!! How is Toni Kroos not been selected here? He's not retired from international football and he's doing well at Man City. Most of all, he has the highest PA. Why is a grayed-out player created when Germany has Toni available? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you playing with the fake.lnc file unchanged from when you bought the game? In this instance it could be that Germany aren't 'allowed' to call up real players. However that's probably wrong. Can't think of anything else to explain it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

where is this file i can delete so the german nt plays with real players? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have tried serch it but i could only find the originale database, no sign of the 8.0.1 tough...

mattyspurs76
14-12-2007, 06:32
where is this file i can delete so the german nt plays with real players?

Is it in the prefernces? sure ive seen something in there where can also choose harchester team/board takeovers etc.. (could be wrong)

kennec
14-12-2007, 07:04
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Riz:
Just because we don't reply to every thread does not mean it is ignored. Especially if it is constructive and makes good reading http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Our testers have done similar analysis on the player progression during testing as seen here and will continue to do so in the future. It is indeed good to get more opinions on the player development matters and especially opinions with factual support as well. We will be looking at both our internal analysis as well as feedback such as this thread as we continue to finetune things in the code.

Balancing such a complex part of the game as player progression is not something that can be done overnight as the development of a player is affected by a lot of variables (clubs, coaches, injuries etc.) outside of just the starting ability and potential. Naturally the best we can aim for is to try and make the future generations of players in the game reflect the starting database as closely as we can. And like I said above, we do make similar internal analysis as well over the long term player development and we will continue to finetune things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

risto remes is the star at SI. i miss your ehm dude!!!

DMaster2
14-12-2007, 07:19
Found the fake.lnc file!

Go to C (or where you have installed it) -&gt; Programs (again) -&gt; Sports Interactive -&gt; Football Manager 2008 -&gt; data -&gt; updates -&gt; update-801 -&gt; db -&gt; 801 -&gt; lnc -&gt; all and then delete it!

kennec
14-12-2007, 07:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erithtotl:
One thing I've always wondered about as far as player development:

whenever you take over a new club, or ask the AI to automatically assign coaches, the default is to have every coach doing every training type they are allowed. The result is that you have a bunch of coaches training each type of trianing not very well. Any half-decent human player is going to specialize their coaches, getting much more out of each training category.

Is this how the AI does it when it manages a team? It's been this way since the new training mechanism was introduced, and would seem to me to partially explain the poor player development.

Of course, this ignores the other issues, like too few high PA players and too low physical stats, but that's another story. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i been thinking about this to alot.

mayby next weak i try make some simulations to see how its done.mayby i take over an big club and sign a young player with high pa and play and train him well.

and at same time use an save game that goes for holiday AND the high pa young player will devolp freely and prolly end up in a big club.

would be fun to compare these to players after the games to the diffence. does 7star training and perfect conditions and 1 team exp means player gets way further and devolp to an world class player.or will they end up the same???

fabioke
14-12-2007, 11:35
This thread is worth gold I am sure that SI can learn alot from your research. I'm only curious what SI thinks about this.

eple
14-12-2007, 11:53
Very interesting thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SiN8:
Tracking players - Savegame 7

Lulinha - 29 yr - AMC - Roma
2007 - 104/187
2009 - 133/187
2011 - 150/187
2013 - 174/187
2015 - 176/187
2017 - 180/187
2019 - 179/187 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a question that is related to something you don't seem to have brought up, apologies if I've missed it. Judging by his CA Lulinha is a top class players, but I'm curious, does his attributes reflect this if you compare him to top class players at the start of the game?

After a few seasons playing the game with the patch I've noticed that though players that start with relatively low CA and a high PA develop their CA reasonably (albeit at a slower rate than before), the points gained in CA doesn't make them much better players. Lulinha is a good example. Three seasons in in my game and he is at around 150 in CA, but in example compared to Mat*as Fernández (starts with CA 158) he looks noting more than a decent Championship player and his performance reflect this.

It's the same with Ever Banega. He has a CA of around 165 and judging by his CA he should be my best CM, but his attributes are much lower compared to my senior players, who have CA from 140-160. My point being, players that start the game with a high CA have a lot better skills than players that develop in the game.

SiN8
14-12-2007, 11:57
Savegame 8: August 1, 2021

Total number of players: 52331...53322...53260...55119...55755...55817...55 774...55408

Real Players left: 7164

Players under 21:

190 - 200 PA: 2.....6.....7.....10....7.....5.....2.....3
180 - 189 PA: 21....22....39....41....41....39....41....41
170 - 179 PA: 111...94....99....110...123...132...155...137
160 - 169 PA: 160...112...92....94....93....85....93....93

190 - 200 CA: 0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0
180 - 189 CA: 2.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0
170 - 179 CA: 0.....0.....1.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0
160 - 169 CA: 2.....6.....0.....0.....1.....0.....1.....1
150 - 159 CA: 12....13....4.....0.....1.....1.....0.....3
140 - 149 CA: 34....23....7.....2.....2.....4.....6.....2
130 - 139 CA: 71....70....24....18....22....16....27....20
120 - 129 CA: 183...110...59....77....76....60....70....65

Pace and acceleration &gt;= 15: 1666.....1357.....1033.....947.....944.....936.... .960.....950

All-around athletes* : 113.....117.....38.....34.....36.....28.....23.... .26

*Defined as pace & acceleration &gt;=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength &gt;=10

Players between 21 and 24:

190 - 200 PA: 6.....5.....3.....5.....10....9.....9.....8
180 - 189 PA: 39....29....21....19....31....36....47....50
170 - 179 PA: 92....110...99....79....89....103...101...152
160 - 169 PA: 227...189...139...93....80....85....79....82

190 - 200 CA: 0.....3.....2.....0.....0.....0.....0.....0
180 - 189 CA: 2.....3.....3.....1.....0.....3.....1.....1
170 - 179 CA: 15....25....24....9.....4.....5.....5.....11
160 - 169 CA: 24....65....57....17....23....27....29....25
150 - 159 CA: 60....156...133...95....51....58....51....57
140 - 149 CA: 173...280...290...182...136...130...125...118
130 - 139 CA: 353...540...475...356...234...241...254...245
120 - 129 CA: 746...821...818...539...423...391...377...392

Pace and acceleration &gt;= 15: 2016.....1300.....811.....564.....464.....423..... 417.....419

All-around athletes* : 366.....331.....211.....139.....99.....79.....73.. ...69

*Defined as pace & acceleration &gt;=15, agility & balance & jumping & natural fitness & stamina & strength &gt;=10

All players

190 - 200 CA: 1.....5.....4.....6.....6.....2.....2.....2
180 - 189 CA: 18....23....28....16....10....14....11....17
170 - 179 CA: 68....95....105...97....84....65....67....68

Wasted Potential

Players who underachieved*: 302.....222.....104.....104.....120.....135.....14 6.....122

*Defined as players between 27 and 30 whose PA &gt;= 150, but their PA - CA &gt;= 20. These players are in their peak years, but have not come close to reaching their potential.


International Caps

Players under 25 with international caps: 1273..1280..1168..905...650...536...574...630
Oldest player &gt;= 170 CA with no caps: Oier Olzabal[31] - 176 CA
Highest CA without caps: Oier Olzabal[31] - 176 CA

England
Players under 25 with international caps: 13....7.....4.....3.....2.....1.....5.....5
Undeserved Callup - Four players under 160 with worst at 136.

Spain
Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....5.....4.....2.....6.....4.....4.....4
Undeserved Callup - Two players with CAs of 136 and 147.

Italy
Players under 25 with international caps: 5.....9.....10....1.....2.....3.....10.....8
Undeserved Callup - Six player under 160 with worst at 132.

France
Players under 25 with international caps: 9.....7.....6.....3.....1.....5.....7.....6
Undeserved Callup - Five players under 160 with worst at 133.

Holland
Players under 25 with international caps: 20....10....7.....2.....0.....4.....1.....6
Undeserved Callup - Five players under 160 with worst at 135.

Brazil
Players under 25 with international caps: 21....13....9.....4.....2.....5.....4.....6
Undeserved Callup - Three players under 160 with worst at 139.

Argentina
Players under 25 with international caps: 18....13....8.....3.....1.....1.....5.....9
Undeserved Callup - Seven players under 160 with worst at 110.

Analysis

There are now 77 regen players over 170 CA despite the fact that 21-24 age group are still lacking behind. As Sir_Liam pointed out, this would indicate that players are improving at a slower pace, but over a longer period of time. For example, Dean Vaughn gained a remarkable 22 points between 26-28. However, note that he is a DC which has a later peak age.

The international scene has some oddities, but not as bad as once believed. The biggest undeserved callup is an 110 CA Argentinan. The biggest snub is 176 CA Spanish GK who is been overlooked for players with 158, 136 and 135 CA.

SiN8
14-12-2007, 11:59
Tracking players - Savegame 8

Lulinha - 31 yr - AMC - Roma
2007 - 104/187
2009 - 133/187
2011 - 150/187
2013 - 174/187
2015 - 176/187
2017 - 180/187
2019 - 179/187
2021 - 170/187

Still with Roma playing regularly. On the decline of his career.

Dean Vaughn - 30 yr - DC - Kansas City
2007 - 66/189
2009 - 68/189
2011 - 73/189
2013 - 82/189
2015 - 98/189
2017 - 115/189
2019 - 137/189
2021 - 137/189

Hooray, Dean finally got the move to a top European side after Lyon signed him for 900k pounds. He's also playing quite regularly too with 39 league appearances. However, it seems that he has

finally peaked.

Thiago - 30 yr - MC - Inter
2007 - 90/173
2009 - 124/173
2011 - 151/173
2013 - 165/173
2015 - 168/173
2017 - 168/173
2019 - 168/173
2021 - 162/173

After 7 seasons at Inter without a trophy, Thiago moved on to Blackburn for free. At 30, Thiago is showing signs of slowing down.

juansarlosol
14-12-2007, 12:04
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DMaster2:
Found the fake.lnc file!

Go to C (or where you have installed it) -&gt; Programs (again) -&gt; Sports Interactive -&gt; Football Manager 2008 -&gt; data -&gt; updates -&gt; update-801 -&gt; db -&gt; 801 -&gt; lnc -&gt; all and then delete it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

are you sure about this?

SiN8
14-12-2007, 12:07
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eple:
I have a question that is related to something you don't seem to have brought up, apologies if I've missed it. Judging by his CA Lulinha is a top class players, but I'm curious, does his attributes reflect this if you compare him to top class players at the start of the game?

After a few seasons playing the game with the patch I've noticed that though players that start with relatively low CA and a high PA develop their CA reasonably (albeit at a slower rate than before), the points gained in CA doesn't make them much better players. Lulinha is a good example. Three seasons in in my game and he is at around 150 in CA, but in example compared to Mat*as Fernández (starts with CA 158) he looks noting more than a decent Championship player and his performance reflect this.

It's the same with Ever Banega. He has a CA of around 165 and judging by his CA he should be my best CM, but his attributes are much lower compared to my senior players, who have CA from 140-160. My point being, players that start the game with a high CA have a lot better skills than players that develop in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's Lulinha at 31 with 170 CA. He might have a lost some physical attributes.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7398/lulinha31dl4.th.jpg

SiN8
14-12-2007, 12:08
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7398/lulinha31dl4.th.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lulinha31dl4.jpg)

ViG1980
14-12-2007, 12:45
Great thread. I posted this issue in several threads and never got a reply. Thanks for actually statistically showing the problem!

There was the same problem in FM2007 which was acknowledged by SI and fixed in the 2nd patch I think.

I just cannot believe that old bugs come back to haunt new FM games every year. I know it's prolly hard to test a game but I played 5 seasons in my first game of FM08 and this was clear as day! I've had to stop playing until a patch sorts it out...

kaNovi
14-12-2007, 12:52
could you put up screenshots of those 3 players?

kaNovi
14-12-2007, 12:53
slow me..http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

eple
14-12-2007, 13:59
Great, SiN8.

Except for weak physical attributes, he looks like a very good player. That's a nice surprise.

DMaster2
14-12-2007, 14:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by juansarlosol:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DMaster2:
Found the fake.lnc file!

Go to C (or where you have installed it) -&gt; Programs (again) -&gt; Sports Interactive -&gt; Football Manager 2008 -&gt; data -&gt; updates -&gt; update-801 -&gt; db -&gt; 801 -&gt; lnc -&gt; all and then delete it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

are you sure about this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. Already deleted my fake.lnc.
I found it using Windows Search

lumpa333
16-12-2007, 16:37
Was it like this in the second betapatch too? Or is it maybe playable in that version?

Richard76
17-12-2007, 07:06
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SiN8:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alwo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The most injust snub is Toni Kroos. The German national team are playing AMCs with 146 and 151 and 171 CA. Their 4rd AMC is actually an grayed-out player!! How is Toni Kroos not been selected here? He's not retired from international football and he's doing well at Man City. Most of all, he has the highest PA. Why is a grayed-out player created when Germany has Toni available? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you playing with the fake.lnc file unchanged from when you bought the game? In this instance it could be that Germany aren't 'allowed' to call up real players. However that's probably wrong. Can't think of anything else to explain it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That explains it. Thank you alwo. Please disregard all tests regarding Germany. My fault. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're going to have to do it all over again now.

Only kidding mate, keep up the good work this is really interesting stuff.

koertvs
17-12-2007, 13:14
SiN8 Your doing a great job, but I think this experiment can become even more interesting if you would go somewhat more in detail, with for instance a more detailed report about the growth of all talents at some random (top)clubs or a yearly biggest prospects watch somewhat like the one's to watch section in this experiment.

Kipfizh experiment (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5402079792/m/9222068982)

If he hasn't done that already, maybe Kipfizh could also help you with some advice and recommendations, because I think he is the true master of the AI experiment.

I also noticed some interesting things in the experiment. Especially the development Dean Vaughn, seemed very strange to me. I think in FM07 most players developed their technical and physical skills until they were about 24 years old, after then most of their skills would only alter a little bit each year. Mental stats however could continue to grow. I think that was a lot like in real life.

If I look at the figures in this experiment, it seems like in the new Fm there is some crazy new system. For instance,Dean Vaughn was developing quickly at the age of 27 or 28, that sounds silly to me. At that age players are mainly developing their 'mental skills' and I don't believe that a rise of 17 in CA is caused by the growth of his 'mental skills'. I hope he is just a bad example but I doubt that as I look at the figures of CA,PA and age of all players.

jwarner
18-12-2007, 00:08
The case of Dean Vaughn is interesting to me; as an American I'm biased towards Yanks in FM.

If we're comparing his story to real life, it's actually not all that unrealistic. The United States is horrifically bad at developing players, it's only recently that that fact has changed slightly. Like Vaughn, there are many young Americans with loads of potential that are being criminally underdeveloped by the youth soccer structures in place.

I wonder what would have happened to Vaughn had he been bought by a large club right after his creation, or even been drafted into MLS right away.

r0x0r
18-12-2007, 00:56
I think the problem is defiantely too low a starting CA to try to hide a problem...

If too many players are hitting their CA, have some players hit 21 then stall and never get any better. Have some even get worse in their mid 20s. Have injuries, personality and other factors more likely to cause a player's career to derail.

But for the love of god, don't make sure that i can't have a team of 20 year olds in 2030. I love the Arsenal way, and while i could still do this, i twouldn't feel the same if they only became any good at 26, played for 3-4 years then left before they lost value. I want to have them in the team from anything from 18-23 until they hit 29/30.

Richard76
18-12-2007, 01:38
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by r0x0r:
I think the problem is defiantely too low a starting CA to try to hide a problem...

If too many players are hitting their CA, have some players hit 21 then stall and never get any better. Have some even get worse in their mid 20s. Have injuries, personality and other factors more likely to cause a player's career to derail.

But for the love of god, don't make sure that i can't have a team of 20 year olds in 2030. I love the Arsenal way, and while i could still do this, i twouldn't feel the same if they only became any good at 26, played for 3-4 years then left before they lost value. I want to have them in the team from anything from 18-23 until they hit 29/30. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm just hoping this is more of a problem with the AI player development and this won't happen to my players with great coaches/training facilities & first team football.

fabioke
18-12-2007, 02:22
This thread is one of the better threads. Because the Most important part of football manager is the AI I hope that SI is reading this to So they can fix this problem I prefer A little bit more talents then less. Thank you very much for your research

The Only Legal Ganja Man
18-12-2007, 02:28
From reading this thread and from experiances in my own game, I think it could be a combination of a problem of under-development at smaller clubs, and bigger clubs not scouting out future stars for their CA is too low...

For example, In my game I am playing as Havant & Waterlooville in the BSP, all my first team I have signed have a PA of 160+, and all have a CA of between 70-100 (Ages from 17-20). However, even after 1 or 2 seasons playing most games in the league, none of the CAs have really moved (Maybe fluctuated a few points but nothing significant) - And, more interestingly, no team above league 1 level has spotted them and come in for a bid, which would happen a lot in previous FMs...

Maybe the low CA is preventing big teams taking a gamble on untested talent, but conversely, the CA is not being improved at all by these lower league teams

uclazy31
18-12-2007, 02:40
Having read the thread and based on my own developmental issue i think there may be a couple of reason for a lack of development that have gone unnoticed. For one i cant transfer 18 or younger players to develop them at my own facilities. The horrible players who have come through my youth system reach about 100 pa at age 18, but they have to stop there because they cant go higher. If i could buy players at a younger age this would almost certainly allow me to get them to a 110-120 level by age 18. This is what happened to the american defender. I know because i always buy the best american youth to try to develop them so america might eventually win a world cup. He could not go anywhere until 18 and nobody develops in the pdl or usl teams in fm08.

Someone earlier mentioned the loan issues. I agree totally my players do not improve when they go on loan and in many cases actually regress, even when i send them to decent feederclubs.

I do notice that the players i play in my own squad do develop into who they are supposed to be for the most part, but only if they play all the time.

I think that determination is way too important in setermining how good players will become. i use that as a baseline when scouting players those with 15+ are sure to reach their potential, at least that is my own conclusion.

mattyspurs76
18-12-2007, 03:30
what about training, with the right training schedule would they be better plyers sooner?

uclazy31
18-12-2007, 03:42
i use the tugs training and i have the 7 star coaches and state of the art facilities. i dont think that is my issue.

or is your point that for some reason the ai schedules are not good?

Silverx
18-12-2007, 04:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">or instance,Dean Vaughn was developing quickly at the age of 27 or 28, that sounds silly to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Luca Toni?

koertvs
18-12-2007, 12:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silverx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">or instance,Dean Vaughn was developing quickly at the age of 27 or 28, that sounds silly to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Luca Toni? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is Luca Toni so much better at scoring goals, shooting on target, heading etc. then 4 years back? I doubt it.

If you look at his statistics he scored much throughout his entire career, and at Fiorentina he started scoring even more.
But at Fiorentina, he had also a better team around him. I think that, that, combined with some more consistency and confidence, could very well be the difference between 15 or 30 goals per season.

The fact that he is well known for only the last years, doesn't mean his technical skill was much lesser before that.

lpx88
18-12-2007, 23:06
Classic thread.

modster76
20-12-2007, 06:50
ran a holiday game untill 2032 and the regens where all good in respect to the club/division in which they played al though i did notice that average match ratings where well down to what they are at the start of the game

ScottehFTM
20-12-2007, 07:06
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">For instance,Dean Vaughn was developing quickly at the age of 27 or 28, that sounds silly to me. At that age players are mainly developing their 'mental skills' and I don't believe that a rise of 17 in CA is caused by the growth of his 'mental skills'. I hope he is just a bad example but I doubt that as I look at the figures of CA,PA and age of all players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He may just be a bad egg, but if he isn't then it may not neccisarily be all that crazy. Maybe CA now takes into account mental stats more so, and in the case of a defender, he's going being improving all the way up to 30, or until his physical attributes actually begin to drop.

I think it even states in the game that Defenders peak between 27-32 or something? I can't remember what it says exactly...

mimland
20-12-2007, 15:30
I'm in 2016 on my game. After my chairman decided to sell my goalkeeper I have been on the hunt for a new one. Scouted every EU national goalkeeper that I could get on a free and noticed that many of the regens have decent stats, not real good but decent. However the majority seem to severly lack in communication and aerial ability, not sure this has to do with age but very few got a number over 10 in any of these areas.

Qceng
21-12-2007, 03:33
Someone above mentioned the 'Arsenal way' - this ain't gonna happen in fm2008 after 3-4 years. CA starting point is too low. The only way to do it is to save just before the regen creation date and keep trying until you get a decent regen. Out of about 20-25 goes you will eventually get a Kroos/Banega style regen (75-85 CA at 15.0) but it's a real pain.

WoIfsong
30-12-2007, 04:10
I am currently in 2018 with Roma and I have to agree that youth development needs a lot of improvement. This is mainly due to, as many mentioned, the poor physical stats of the newgens. I have been scouting and scouting for the past 5 years (game time http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) and none of the new gens meet my criteria for DCs (Acceleration and pace &gt; 13, jumping &gt; 16) nor my criteria for STs (Jumping &gt; 17, Acceleration and pace &gt; 14). And every team in the world goes downwards in terms of player standards as the game goes on. I have Nazarith as my top striker (only a
-9 striker, not a newgen) and I could not find a single newgen that could match his abilities according to my 20 JA and 20 JP scouts.

This is problematic and has ruined the enjoyment of career games, because when I see my squad getting older and older I can not find decent replacements.

I hope this will be tweaked in 8.0.2.

Rickooko
12-01-2008, 10:31
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Riz:
Just because we don't reply to every thread does not mean it is ignored. Especially if it is constructive and makes good reading http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Our testers have done similar analysis on the player progression during testing as seen here and will continue to do so in the future. It is indeed good to get more opinions on the player development matters and especially opinions with factual support as well. We will be looking at both our internal analysis as well as feedback such as this thread as we continue to finetune things in the code.

Balancing such a complex part of the game as player progression is not something that can be done overnight as the development of a player is affected by a lot of variables (clubs, coaches, injuries etc.) outside of just the starting ability and potential. Naturally the best we can aim for is to try and make the future generations of players in the game reflect the starting database as closely as we can. And like I said above, we do make similar internal analysis as well over the long term player development and we will continue to finetune things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like the problem is very complicated... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I do appreciate SI working on this area but i am pretty worry about that. For long the regen/newgen players system is crucial to long term game but after 10 versions of cm/fm the problem still exist. I start to think if it is ever possible to really "fix" this problem??

I really wish SI could improve it in some way with patch 8.0.1. (But sadly, we better dont expect much from a patch for such complicated issue)

Rickooko
12-01-2008, 10:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rickooko:

I really wish SI could improve it in some way with patch 8.0.1. (But sadly, we better dont expect much from a patch for such complicated issue) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Should be patch 8.0.2

dudubrdx
12-01-2008, 12:10
is it me or was the regen development much better on the original fm2008 or on the beta patches?
I still have the first beta, which had in my opinion the best match engine ever, and i'm really close to switchng back to it, but i don't want to ruin my 2020 savegame...

mg9106
12-01-2008, 14:13
this is real interesting, ive only just started a new game with the 8.0.1 patch, because i didnt want to install it while my game with Hull was running. I played for 15 years and didnt notice anything like this...and I thought a patch was meant to fix things...

VonBlade
12-01-2008, 14:35
The "all around athletes" thing is something I've noticed.

Hopefully as you're so far you can assist. Do you find that most (well nearly all) players have madly low natural fitness? The occasional pacey guy comes throw, the odd guy with the stamina of an ox, but 1 in 1000 with natural fitness above 10.

I'm positive this is what is skewing the figures and that removing natural fitness will increase the numbers hugely.

Although, again, it shows that the regen system is broken beyond belief. As per usual then.
VB

Apocalypse
13-01-2008, 08:02
Intersting reading but wouldnt u think Dean Vaughn would develop more quickly and perhaps reach his PA if he was at a top club with better training/youth facilities with better coaches???

xouman
14-01-2008, 05:39
People is complaining that training is not working properly for youngers, but I don't think that's the point. I have a welsh player who entered national team at 19, and after a 6 months injury he returned again. at 23 he is the second best player of wales, and has nearly fulfilled his potential. Also I have dozens of players (I play with my own youngers) and they are developing nicely. But people seems to want young players increase 50 CA points each season, and less than 3 ability points in any stat is a sin for them.

Tom Leeburn
14-01-2008, 07:48
in 2015 with west ham i am yet to see a decent FRED appear with me. (despite the fact that west ham are well known for producing a steady stream of talented british youngsters in real life).
i have had a few which are around the 150 mark, but as i have been european champions five yrs in a row, they are never going to be good enough to get in the side.
I have been using the miniscout to monitor the progress of youth players and english freds in particular as i am also youth manager.

Two observations. Firstly there sem to be a relative paucity of v talented youngsters coming from england as compared to south american nations & france, germany etc. there are literally about 3 or 4 u23 players with a pa above 180. This may have been affected by my use of ddt files to increase the number of non-english players available at the game start.
Secondly I have noticed that far too many high PA players have a low CA. I would suggest you want a CA of around 110 at 18 if you are to have any chance of being a wonderkid. Rooney/fabregas/pato style uber talented teens are extremely improbable in the future in fm08 as it stands.

i have resorted to upping the CA of talented youth players to 100+ with the fmm editor, just to give them a chance of blooming. i dont restrict this to players on my own books, and i recommend this as currently the only way of ensuring a decent talent pool for future (in particular international tournaments).

if you can be bothered to be more thorough i would suggest checking players have apropriate stats for their position and adjusting accordingly. i.e a high pa DC with jumping 5 is never going to end up very effective, so either give him a new position or up his jumping to 10+. This is particularly a problem with ai trained controlled players, the ai will never have the foresight to retrain such a player to a more suitable position.

PaulC
14-01-2008, 08:26
We think its in pretty good shape, but it is also fair to say that the odd wonderkid and faster developer wouldnt go amiss.....as long as they weren't the norm.

Its going to be tweaked to that effect in 8.0.2.

Rickooko
14-01-2008, 09:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
We think its in pretty good shape, but it is also fair to say that the odd wonderkid and faster developer wouldnt go amiss.....as long as they weren't the norm.

Its going to be tweaked to that effect in 8.0.2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Paul, do you mean the patching of this issue is in pretty good shape

or you mean the situation of the issue discuss here is actually pretty good and dont really need a fix?

Kill Rock Stars
14-01-2008, 10:14
i'm hoping that "pretty good shape" doesn't mean that the problem with very few youngsters having decent physical stats will be ignored

Tom Leeburn
14-01-2008, 10:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
We think its in pretty good shape, but it is also fair to say that the odd wonderkid and faster developer wouldnt go amiss.....as long as they weren't the norm.

Its going to be tweaked to that effect in 8.0.2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


thanks for the reply paul, it is helps to keep the frustration levels down if we know you guys are at least paying attention when we point out problems.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx