Unhappy

I have been a customer of the football manager series as well as the championship manager series since about 96, buying the game on an annual basis.

However I am totally unsatisfied with this year’s release.

I have never complained before about the number of patches that seems to get released every year after the game is available to buy, and I have also read a number of posts where people complained – only to belittled by members of the forum comment when not necessary.

Tonight I was quite happily starting out my Kilmarnock game, after downloading the lastest patch, every was going well and won my first game 6-0. Then I get the message – football manager has ran out of memory, it will now quit, prior to the patch I had never had a problem, I had noticed games stopping for a few seconds but never quitting out.

I am truly dissatisfied that a patch released was obviously not tested properly, as it has managed to do to me, exactly what I believe it was released not to do.

I am 24 years old with a full time job and I only play Football Manager casually, so no I won’t be uploading my saved game – simply it is not my job and either do I have the time.

I read a number of posts similar to what I am posting, when people have just finally given up due to the problems that they have experience and reading some of the responses I do wonder if some members of SI/forum mods or whoever have actually any experience in customer care.

I honestly do think that SI need to take a good look at themselves because it seems “patches” or should I say the 3rd/4th “patch” is now acceptable until a Football Manager game is complete and fully enjoyable.

Posting in such a stubborn and uncooperative tone is going to do you no favours.

When reading this other threads, have you seen and read the responses, or simply copy and pasted the initial post? If you had read them, you'd see that while SI are doing their very best to fix issues where they exist, a great number of them are due to the hardware and actions of the user.

If you can be more specific with your issues/concerns, and open your mind to a little cooperation and acknowledgement of potential causes, I'm sure someone around here would be more than happy to help you.

Hershie thank you for your reply!

I do apologise I didn’t realise that I had to earn favours? I thought buying the game for 13 years would of been enough. However thank you, for proving my be-littling point, however in your 2nd paragraph you plain contradicted yourself(did I read them?, didn’t I read them?, make your mind up) and indeed made as much sense as myself after half a bottle of brandy, however the reply was much appreciated and predictable.

With regards to your comment as to SI trying to work out if it is a user/hardware issues, I think its quite clear the patch was the reason for the crash, but to clarify –

The game was bought since release and patched when available. Game played under same circumstances (number of leagues, database size), before patch 10.1.1 the game ran fine with no memory issues causing any crash. Now since the patch the game has crashed, about 1 month into the game, I also actually had less programme’s running on my computer at the time that I normally would.

.

Hershie thank you for your reply!

I do apologise I didn’t realise that I had to earn favours? I thought buying the game for 13 years would of been enough. However thank you, for proving my be-littling point, however in your 2nd paragraph you plain contradicted yourself(did I read them?, didn’t I read them?, make your mind up) and indeed made as much sense as myself after half a bottle of brandy, however the reply was much appreciated and predictable.

I'm not trying to belittle you - just take a step back and consider how people are going to respond to your post if you take up an attitude from the start. No-one wants to help you if you act like someone owes you something, particular when it's clear that the vast majority have no problems at all and so it very well may be a problem at your end - and one which people would be willing to help you with.

If you want help, ask for it, don't demand it. Buying a product does not give you the right to abuse/exploit the creator.

Also, where exactly did I contradict myself? I used a hypathetical question to suggest that you'd only looked at other posts to get ideas for your ranting, and then gave you the benefit of the doubt in suggesting you'd read them properly.

With regards to your comment as to SI trying to work out if it is a user/hardware issues, I think its quite clear the patch was the reason for the crash, but to clarify –

The game was bought since release and patched when available. Game played under same circumstances (number of leagues, database size), before patch 10.1.1 the game ran fine with no memory issues causing any crash. Now since the patch the game has crashed, about 1 month into the game, I also actually had less programme’s running on my computer at the time that I normally would.

.

Please post what the issue is, when it is occuring, and under what conditions. I'll try and help you, but if not I'm sure someone else can.

Kilmarnock i can totally understand your frustration. I myself work full time and have little free time to search for fixes/patches/info unlike some (hershie).

Comon now Hershie, to continually release a game with major bugs every year doesn't do much for consumer confidence. How Sega allow an unfinished product to reach consumers hands befuddles me.

Kilmarnock i can totally understand your frustration. I myself work full time and have little free time to search for fixes/patches/info unlike some (hershie).

Comon now Hershie, to continually release a game with major bugs every year doesn't do much for consumer confidence. How Sega allow an unfinished product to reach consumers hands befuddles me.

The game doesn't have major bugs though? It has a few minor issues, and a number of other issues in which it appears increasingly the case that the actions and/or hardware of the user are to blame.

I don't have the time to look for fixes/patches/info either, but I don't have the need to because I don't have any issues.. :confused:

How will arguing help the situation? If you think FM10 is buggy, Kilmarnock, then go back to FM09, or whichever previous version you played before this year's release. Everyone has different tastes, and the game crashes on some machines and not others. The one thing that won't get the bugs out is shouting at each other.

The game doesn't have major bugs though? It has a few minor issues, and a number of other issues in which it appears increasingly the case that the actions and/or hardware of the user are to blame.

I don't have the time to look for fixes/patches/info either, but I don't have the need to because I don't have any issues.. :confused:

So why are you giving advice to a user that has issues when you dont...you dont share the frustration, so whats the point in posting. Sanctimonious numpty

So why are you giving advice to a user that has issues when you dont...you dont share the frustration, so whats the point in posting. Sanctimonious numpty

Because:

1) I know of the issues, of the possible causes of them (as they've been repeated here many many many times), and of the potential ways to remedy them.

2) I know about computers.

3) I like to help.

Why are you posting in this thread if you have even less constructive comments than the OP?

So why are you giving advice to a user that has issues when you dont...you dont share the frustration, so whats the point in posting. Sanctimonious numpty

No need for you to start calling him names tho. So how about you wind it in unless you have something to contribute?

Cut out the personal comments please

To be fair I agree with the original poster. I too have played this game for many many years. Yes I know SI do their best to resolve issues but for those of us who have remained loyal buyers of the game it has got to the position where bringing out a game year after year which is never quite finished until at least February and has problems with "the same issues year after year" is taking the provervbials a tad.

Steam uploaded the patch directly on my PC yet last night in a League Cup Match I beat Liverpool 4-2 AET and yet they got the result 4-2, and I didn't even go to penalties!!! And this patch was meeant to resolve this bug!!

I have had the penalty score change before but this was after a mere extra time.

I have played COD for years and have had 1 issue. One in all that time yer FM brings up the same old chestnuts year after year.

Lord only knows what the customers who don't have the internet speed to download patches or are not on the internet think.

Sorry SI but me thinks you should by pass 2011 and just try and produce a game that is half playable by February. There are 12 months in a year yet every single version you get 6 months at best to play a "nearly" bug free game. Sadly though it's a cash cow and profit comes before customer satisfaction.

So give the fella a break, he is just saying exactly what an awful lot of loyal customers are thinking.

How will arguing help the situation? If you think FM10 is buggy, Kilmarnock, then go back to FM09, or whichever previous version you played before this year's release. Everyone has different tastes, and the game crashes on some machines and not others. The one thing that won't get the bugs out is shouting at each other.

Go back to FM09? And what about the money I spend buying the game? Terrible advice.

I'm not trying to belittle you - just take a step back and consider how people are going to respond to your post if you take up an attitude from the start. No-one wants to help you if you act like someone owes you something, particular when it's clear that the vast majority have no problems at all and so it very well may be a problem at your end - and one which people would be willing to help you with.

If you want help, ask for it, don't demand it. Buying a product does not give you the right to abuse/exploit the creator..

The thing is someone does owe me something - a playable game! was this not the product that I bought? It really gets my goat that people thing Football Manager is not the same as any other product that you would buy and are somehow untouchable.

The vast majority have no problems with it? okay... so everything is ok then? I should accept that I am in the percentage that can’t play the game properly and get on with? That’s like saying before you buy this car every 1 in 10 people will have problems, however please accept that other drivers will be passing you by and smile! BTW do you have figures to back up such a bold statement that I am in the minority?

I never once demanded help, either do I feel I abused or exploited the creator, indeed if anyone is doing any exploit it would be surely it would be a company releasing faulty products year after year.

The game doesn't have major bugs though? It has a few minor issues, and a number of other issues in which it appears increasingly the case that the actions and/or hardware of the user are to blame.

I don't have the time to look for fixes/patches/info either, but I don't have the need to because I don't have any issues.. :confused:

The game is unplayable due to it crashing out, how is this not a major issue? and as previously stated the environment before and after the patch was the same, therefore how the heck could it be a user issue?

Thank you Sussex Hammer, your comment about people who don’t have the internet or the download speed for patches basically says it all.

I think its time SI publicly admitted their short falls to loyal fans.

Go back to FM09? And what about the money I spend buying the game? Terrible advice.

Go back to FM09 until the next patch comes out. The patch will fix the problems you've been experiencing, and you can play FM10 again. Happy?

The point is though this shouldnt have to happen! I have bought a product, I have spend my hard earned cash!

And you don't have to pay for the patch, do you? You don't pay anything extra.

I agree with Kilmarnock's views. There are many "old" problems with the match engine. Long shots, for example, have been a problem in prior versions of the game. They're back with a vengeance in FM2010. Other issues such as set piece fiascos, penalties, tackling, defending, closing down have also been widely reported on these forums. And the old favourite, the crash bug. Lets get real - FM 2010 in its boxed form is a sham.

My problem with SI is not that they have failed to produce the perfect game. Its their smugness and disdain for the customers in happily releasing a bug ridden game. They are the ones who advertise its qualities without ever saying "by the way, you'll probably have to patch a few times before we get it some way decent in February" and fail to mention that this has been the trend for the last number of games. I agree that there are many who don't (for one reason or another) download patches or read these forums and end up very let down with the game. But that doesn't bother SI or SEGA.

I certainly don't think SI deserve any kudos for releasing the patches - the bottom line is that they should have got it right on day one and their failure do so on a continuous basis, mixed with their assurances that "this is the best yet" and their failure to inform about patch necessities at the point of purchase display a money grabbing contempt for the vast majority of users.

People have defended them saying this is the nature of things - that patches are part and parcel of every game. I'm not aware of any specific examples or comparable situations where the product sold at the point of purchase is so deficient and have never heard SI offer this explanation or point of view at the point of purchase or in their advertising material.

And you don't have to pay for the patch, do you? You don't pay anything extra.

And so you shouldn’t have to pay for a patch, what is a patch... SI's way of covering up their own incompetence of not releasing a stable game?

The point is when buying a game you expect it to work properly if your PC at least meets the 'Minimum Requirements', I too purchased the game at full price on its release day and have had endless problems and spent a great deal of time trying to sort it out.

In future SI should put a warning on the game that actually it might not work as intended and that for all the good will of some people when trying to get help on the forum’s most of the time your met by idiots and SI's moderators 'Selective' style of replying, if you’re a noob (which most people experiencing problems and then coming on here for help are) your appeals for assistance will be mostly ignored

I for one am glad my Xbox means I don’t have to go back to FM until its sorted properly (probably march when they start plugging the next release and forgetting about this one)

This may come across as a negative rant, and so it should I have paid money for a product that doesn’t meet its purpose.

And you don't have to pay for the patch, do you? You don't pay anything extra.

no, but the point is he bought something in november and has to wait until january for it work...

what they said ^

And so you shouldn’t have to pay for a patch, what is a patch... SI's way of covering up their own incompetence of not releasing a stable game?

What game is completely bug free? Name one and I'll go away.

In future SI should put a warning on the game that actually it might not work as intended and that for all the good will of some people when trying to get help on the forum’s most of the time your met by idiots and SI's moderators 'Selective' style of replying, if you’re a noob (which most people experiencing problems and then coming on here for help are) your appeals for assistance will be mostly ignored.

Have you looked at all the posts asking for help? So far I've seen very few that haven't been anwsered, and those people have been pointed towards the forums that can help them.

no, but the point is he bought something in november and has to wait until january for it work...

Are you asking SI to wait until after Christmas to release the game? Really?

SI are certainly not perfect, proven by the fact that they have to release the game before Christmas to get more income from the Christmad rush. But the fact that they take the time to look over these forums, impliment our ideas, and get patches out to us proves that they do care. Hell, if they didn't care they wouldn't have made the game in the first place, would they?

What game is completely bug free? Name one and I'll go away.

Have you looked at all the posts asking for help? So far I've seen very few that haven't been anwsered, and those people have been pointed towards the forums that can help them.

Are you asking SI to wait until after Christmas to release the game? Really?

SI are certainly not perfect, proven by the fact that they have to release the game before Christmas to get more income from the Christmad rush. But the fact that they take the time to look over these forums, impliment our ideas, and get patches out to us proves that they do care. Hell, if they didn't care they wouldn't have made the game in the first place, would they?

Twisting the arguement some what -

I play many games on xbox and have never come across anything that makes the game unplayable or indeed shuts the game down, niether have I ever bought a game where it is do dependant on a patch to acutally make it playable, doesnt people forget FM a few years ago that changed the score? I dont ever remember seeing that in fifa, pes or by saying you lost in COD when you won.

I think if SI asked its market if they would rather wait until the game was released after further testing you would get alot of people who would prefer that. I dont really agree that the christmas rush has anything to do with it, the game was released well before xmas how many people here bought it within the christmas rush? Indeed if the game was released now, it would still met the xmas rush and might be in a better state.

To be honset, someone who defends SI with examples like "the patch doesnt cost anything" clearly does not really have an open mind.

To be honset, someone who defends SI with examples like "the patch doesnt cost anything" clearly does not really have an open mind.

I don't have an open mind? I'm not the one complaining about how the game is unplayable and bothering everyone with whining, when I could just as easily sit back, play other games, and wait for the patch to come out. Mindless criticism won't help SI improve the game, or make the patch arrive faster.

This is an internet forum - I don’t really see how i am bothering everyone with whining indeed some of the responses have shared my view. Mindless criticism? I don’t think so, not towards SI anyway.

Easily sit back, play other games? that is true but my point is I bought a product why should I have to wait? oh no sorry I forgot - its the Untouchable Football Manager you are not allowed to complain.

In the end of the day the post thread was started in frustration and indeed it was good to hear people shared my frustration. If you didn’t share the frustration then why post with predictable lines, which ultimately descends into bickering?

The point of this post was to express how unhappy and dissatisfied I am with SI, however as usual when someone does this the predictable happens.

Maybe you should try and extract your head from SI behind.

Originally Posted by Vic Taylor

What game is completely bug free? Name one and I'll go away.

I believe I did this

In the end of the say the post thread was started in frustration and indeed it was good to hear people shared my frustration. Maybe you should try and extract your head from SI behind.

Lol. I'm not even playing FM10. I stuck with FM09. So... I didn't like FM10 either, but I didn't go onto this forum and run my mouth... even if I was frustrated?

Originally Posted by Vic Taylor

What game is completely bug free? Name one and I'll go away.

I believe I did this

All right. There are games that have very few bugs. But FM is a huge game. It has thousands of players, a huge editor tool, loads of features, and everything. You think anyone could get every single thing right? Are you perfect too?

brick wall springs to mind......

I love it when people have lost an argument, and try to back out with losing face!

The thing is, we could have continued to test this game and released the game after Christmas - I very much doubt it would have made any difference. We were only made aware of the memory issues to the degree they've been mentioned after the game was released. Many different computer set-ups with different preferences/leagues/db sizes and everything else made this almost impossible to get full coverage of.

As people have said we are working hard to try and get a fix for this - the 10.1.1 patch had shown in testing to dramatically reduce memory usage on a number of machines - the fact you're now only experiencing the issue after installing the patch of course is a concern and something we most definitely are looking into.

If the game was adequately tested, how come the obvious problems were not dealt with prior to release?

My computer is more than adequeate to run the game. In fact, it recommends running leagues from 4 coutries. Yet I only run 1 - the English Leagues from League 2 up. Large date base. It still crashed three times duirng the course of a game play season. What sort of computers to your testers test the game on?

Patch 10.1.1 does not resolve the crash bug for all as you know - nearly one month after release.

Is it SI's position that having regard to their own representations on their testing of the game, none of the issues (crash bug, game play, match engine) defects, were detected during such testing?

Given the inadequacy of the game, what is SI's position on those who don't use these forums or have access to patches?

No I think you’re actually proving 1 of my points!

Just because you decided not to complain, does not make you a better person, or what ever you were trying to say. Everyone is different….!

You have twisted the argument to a point where it is not even about FM......following quote - Are you perfect too? What exactly has this to do with anything?

I am not going to respond to you now because I think you are just looking for an argument and again totally taking away the point of the thread.

I am not going to respond to you now because I think you are just looking for an argument and again totally taking away the point of the thread.

Okay.

-----

I actually think the OP has a point, be it a little conclusive on his part but a point none the less. It is every customers right to make his point, happens in Football all the time so why should a footy game be any different?

The OP bought a product and is unhappy with it or part of it, who is everyone else to belittle him? If you're happy with a product then its your right, if you're unhappy with a product that is also your right but it is not your right to force someone to retract their views and adopt another. You can argue a point but cannot encourage by force, insult or subjucation. This so reminds me of specific extreme groupings in the 30s.

On a personal viewpoint, I like the game but I feel that unilock should've been reinstated as an option. Steam is a little problematic and I dont like keeping a cd/dvd in the drive so this has given me a little pause for thought on future editions. Still I also understand SI's viewpoint, they are a company, they have a product and delay could result in lost revenue. Patching is a viable option which I personally like but its impossible to address issues for every single individual. As for the memory issue, I have had similar crashes running on a 4GB Quad Core machine with 2 divisions of 4 leagues running so there are issues that need looking at, maybe 10.1.1 may fix these I havent tested it yet.

Funny enough, I've never had any of the mentioned crashes and/or memory leaks whatsoever, before and after patching. Is it affecting only certain types of machines/OS's ?

If the game was adequately tested, how come the obvious problems were not dealt with prior to release?

First of all you haven't been invovled with the testing process.

Alongside around 200 machines in our office, a further large number of machines at Sega's testing office and our extensive Beta testing team we have not had the issues that were brought up here, or if they were brought up here (we took a number of people who were having the problem on 10.1 so we could sort them out for 10.1.1) then we got people involved so we could make those changes for 10.1.1

Which was testing on the same machines listed above with the addition of people who were having the problem.

Guess what? None of the current issues that have come up were reported during testing or perhaps came up once, a fix was put in and they didn't show up again. When an issue comes up once every thousand tests it's not going to be very easy to track down and there are issues like that.

I know it's frustrating that things go wrong but there's a big difference between testing on 1000 or so machines and having a couple of hundred thousand machines on the same code. There's just no way we, or anyone, could test to that extent, there are millions of different PC configurations and to compare that to console games which are almost universally patched as well these days, isn't a fair comparison.

We realise it's frustrating, we realise we're not perfect but we're not doing this to annoy you, we want as many people as we can get enjoying our game, sadly there are problems and we are doing everything we can to fix them.

Getting attacked is never fun though.

My computer is more than adequeate to run the game. In fact, it recommends running leagues from 4 coutries. Yet I only run 1 - the English Leagues from League 2 up. Large date base. It still crashed three times duirng the course of a game play season. What sort of computers to your testers test the game on?

Well obviously we haven't tested the game on your personal machine.

As I said we can't test on every configuration, we get as many different configurations as we possibly can, that includes getting people in from outside SI and Sega to help us. That happens before the games release and after the games release.

Anyone that has serious issues (in time to be involved) was invited onto the Beta program in order to help them more directly.

Patch 10.1.1 does not resolve the crash bug for all as you know - nearly one month after release.

It has done for many users. But not for everyone. Which we are looking into now.

Is it SI's position that having regard to their own representations on their testing of the game, none of the issues (crash bug, game play, match engine) defects, were detected during such testing?

Our position is we test on as many machines as we can and a vast majority of the bugs on FM2010 were fixed before release, these included crash bugs, match engine bugs, media bugs, and bugs in every other area of the game, we did more compatability testing than ever before and had more Beta testers than ever before, obviously some people had problems but we've since tried to fix them. Coding isn't a precise science unfortunately it's a balancing act.

Given the inadequacy of the game, what is SI's position on those who don't use these forums or have access to patches?

Once again many thousands of people are playing the game and enjoy it.

Just so you're aware Sega's customer support, who's number is in the Manual, have reported that they've recieved hardly any calls about the game at all. We've got people on the forums who are having trouble and I'm expecting those people will be getting contacted about helping resolve their issues. Sadly some of them will decide not to be helpful and instead just go on the attack. Not much we can do about that, we want to help everyone if we can.

Once again we're sorry some people are having trouble and we're doing what we can to get them sorted out.

Edit: Oh and please feel free to make points. However trolling and insults will start resulting in bans as it's getting to a daft level in here.

Funny enough, I've never had any of the mentioned crashes and/or memory leaks whatsoever, before and after patching. Is it affecting only certain types of machines/OS's ?

I doubt it, I just guess you've been lucky. It could be specific software or hardware issues but that is impossible to check, there are hundreds of graphic cards on the market and I wouldn't expect SI to buy every single one of them. I have had error messages appearing when loading Steam, click ok and game works fine, takes ages to quit the game though when I finish my session, something that never happened in FM09 or 08.

Anyone that has serious issues (in time to be involved) was invited onto the Beta program in order to help them more directly.

I dont want to be shot down in flames for this but I find the beta procedure rather lacking in substance. It tends to be a case of those who shout more get heard first. Last year on the FM09 version I commented on a bug issue, making the necessary screen shots, uploads etc only to be ignored. When the same point was provided by someone else, a more longtime member with a little more "standing" he was acknowledged and the problem dealt with. In fact the same goes for most statements, ppl suggest something or comment or question something and unless they happen to have longtime status or mod status they are quickly shotdown. It rather disheartens you and leads many to foul outbursts undeserving of themselves.

and I have also read a number of posts where people complained – only to belittled by members of the forum comment when not necessary..

good point well made, yet its the same people belittling other posters all the time

I honestly do think that SI need to take a good look at themselves because it seems “patches” or should I say the 3rd/4th “patch” is now acceptable until a Football Manager game is complete and fully enjoyable.

this is my argument exactly.... very good post

I dont want to be shot down in flames for this but I find the beta procedure rather lacking in substance. It tends to be a case of those who shout more get heard first. Last year on the FM09 version I commented on a bug issue, making the necessary screen shots, uploads etc only to be ignored. When the same point was provided by someone else, a more longtime member with a little more "standing" he was acknowledged and the problem dealt with. In fact the same goes for most statements, ppl suggest something or comment or question something and unless they happen to have longtime status or mod status they are quickly shotdown. It rather disheartens you and leads many to foul outbursts undeserving of themselves.

Sorry if you felt that way, the team sholdn't be ignoring anyone who's got a genuine problem. Did no one get back to you about it at all? Sometimes this place is so busy that things can get lost but that is, and should never be our intention.

The OP has a definite point. Maybe went the wrong way about saying it, but still a fair point.

I really dont see why certain members feel the urge to defend SI & SEGA to the point where they will actually begin to insult someone.

I feel these people are overlooked when coming under the hammer of the mods, where as those who perhaps have a negative view on the game seem to be repremanded.

I believe SI are doing all they can, however I am afraid even this may not be enough. Times are hard, people are skint, they pay for a game after a year of excitement waiting for it to find out there are issues that ruin the game.

Not everyone will feel that certain issues ruin the game and happily play on, however I think it is about time that people understand that both parties are entitled to thier opinion.

This is a forum after all..

First of all you haven't been invovled with the testing process.

Alongside around 200 machines in our office, a further large number of machines at Sega's testing office and our extensive Beta testing team we have not had the issues that were brought up here, or if they were brought up here (we took a number of people who were having the problem on 10.1 so we could sort them out for 10.1.1) then we got people involved so we could make those changes for 10.1.1

Which was testing on the same machines listed above with the addition of people who were having the problem.

Guess what? None of the current issues that have come up were reported during testing or perhaps came up once, a fix was put in and they didn't show up again. When an issue comes up once every thousand tests it's not going to be very easy to track down and there are issues like that.

I know it's frustrating that things go wrong but there's a big difference between testing on 1000 or so machines and having a couple of hundred thousand machines on the same code. There's just no way we, or anyone, could test to that extent, there are millions of different PC configurations and to compare that to console games which are almost universally patched as well these days, isn't a fair comparison.

We realise it's frustrating, we realise we're not perfect but we're not doing this to annoy you, we want as many people as we can get enjoying our game, sadly there are problems and we are doing everything we can to fix them.

Getting attacked is never fun though.

Well obviously we haven't tested the game on your personal machine.

As I said we can't test on every configuration, we get as many different configurations as we possibly can, that includes getting people in from outside SI and Sega to help us. That happens before the games release and after the games release.

Anyone that has serious issues (in time to be involved) was invited onto the Beta program in order to help them more directly.

It has done for many users. But not for everyone. Which we are looking into now.

Our position is we test on as many machines as we can and a vast majority of the bugs on FM2010 were fixed before release, these included crash bugs, match engine bugs, media bugs, and bugs in every other area of the game, we did more compatability testing than ever before and had more Beta testers than ever before, obviously some people had problems but we've since tried to fix them. Coding isn't a precise science unfortunately it's a balancing act.

Once again many thousands of people are playing the game and enjoy it.

Just so you're aware Sega's customer support, who's number is in the Manual, have reported that they've recieved hardly any calls about the game at all. We've got people on the forums who are having trouble and I'm expecting those people will be getting contacted about helping resolve their issues. Sadly some of them will decide not to be helpful and instead just go on the attack. Not much we can do about that, we want to help everyone if we can.

Once again we're sorry some people are having trouble and we're doing what we can to get them sorted out.

Edit: Oh and please feel free to make points. However trolling and insults will start resulting in bans as it's getting to a daft level in here.

Thank you for your reply. I rejoin as follows : -

1.Very few consumers are involved in the testing process. That is SI's job and they get paid for it - ultimately by the consumer. If the end product is inadequate, then you shouldn't blame the consumer. That would be smug.

2.I am amazed that given the testing you describe, so many consumers have (on this site alone) reported so many issues which could hardly be described as minor.

3. To say raising such issues is an "attack" is unreasonble.

4.There is nothing unusual about my machine. I didn't buy it in space. It is more than adequate having regard to the specs listed on the box. The problem is the game, not my machine.

5. Everyone understands the "perfect game" is not attainable. However, any reading of these forums, and my own experience of the game, are that there are major and obvious bugs which detract significantly from any possible enjoyment of the game. At the point of sale, no one pointed out that patches would be necessary.

6.There may be many people who are enjoying the game. There may be many who are not.

7.The manual, as far as I know, did not come with the boxed set. It's very unwise to suggest that because SEGA's complaint line isn't ringing every minute that all of us who have expressed our concerns and complaints (without "attacking" anyone) are wrong.

8. I haven't trolled or insulsted and I can only surmise as to why you would want to ban someone raising difficult questions in a reasoned manner. Ban me if you wish.

9. SI have said patch 2 is out before Christmas. Understandably vague but fair enough. However, you should appreciate that there are those who will not access the patch (for one reason or another). Do you intend to ban them too?

I have read the first few posts and want to point something. If you buy a product from a shop and it is not fit for purpose, i.e. it does not work, you are entitled to either a repare to no cost, a replacement or a FULL refund. It is the responsibility fo the retailer and no one else. Even if they stipilate than you can not return PC games (as many do) you are still covered by the Sale Of Goods Act. If your system meets the minimum requirement then they cannot possibly refuse you a refund.

HOWEVER, S.I. are not obliged to provide anyone with a patch for the game. It has simpy become common for games to be patched in the modern day, what with access to the intenrnet and the advancement of game technology.

If you decide to install a patch, I doubt you can hold the retailer responsible for any problems it causes.

Finally, please remember that the product you purchase may have small errors or faults which are reasonable to expect and if you have bought the game for many years then you are fully aware that there may be errors in the data. It is up to you wheether or not to purchase the game knowing that these errors exist and you are not within your right to demand a refund for what you perceive to be a "poor" game.

I can think of dozens of games in years gone by with huge problems which simply made them bad games. That does not mean that I can get my money back.

Sorry if you felt that way, the team sholdn't be ignoring anyone who's got a genuine problem. Did no one get back to you about it at all? Sometimes this place is so busy that things can get lost but that is, and should never be our intention.

It was eventually dealt with as someone else posted the same issue so I was happy as it meant the game could be improved as the problem was resolved but the nature of what happened disappointed me and so this year I gave the beta process a miss. If you scan over the Editing forum you have similar issues. You post something, everyone ignores but if its a more longstanding member then its idolised and commented upon repeatedly. I once asked a question on a specific problem and I got insulted by another poster simply for "daring" to comment on the OPs post, even though I asked a question and not actually commented on anything. It happens all the time on here and although there are mods present some of those are just as much to blame. You're right though its chaotic here at times but problems should be prioritised and not simply picked upon depending on who posts.

The problem is the game, not my machine.

One point I need to comment on.

Just because your computer has the right specs, that's far from proof that you computer is not to blame. The fact that the issues seem to be hard/impossible to recreate on most other computers suggests issues with the one that is experiencing them.

Obviously it could still be the game, but as is mentioned (and overlooked) so many times, having the right specs doesn't mean the game will work perfectly. SI have repeatedly said that the game cannot be tested on all hardware or component combinations, and have also offered advice to those with issues in an attempt to remedy them.

So many things with your computer could be to blame. Faulty components, outdated drivers, corrupted installs/downloads, CPU/memory being drained by other applications, viruses/trojans attacking files and/or drives, poor choice of firewall/anti-virus, etc.

I have read the first few posts and want to point something. If you buy a product from a shop and it is not fit for purpose, i.e. it does not work, you are entitled to either a repare to no cost, a replacement or a FULL refund. It is the responsibility fo the retailer and no one else. Even if they stipilate than you can not return PC games (as many do) you are still covered by the Sale Of Goods Act. If your system meets the minimum requirement then they cannot possibly refuse you a refund.

HOWEVER, S.I. are not obliged to provide anyone with a patch for the game. It has simpy become common for games to be patched in the modern day, what with access to the intenrnet and the advancement of game technology.

If you decide to install a patch, I doubt you can hold the retailer responsible for any problems it causes.

Finally, please remember that the product you purchase may have small errors or faults which are reasonable to expect and if you have bought the game for many years then you are fully aware that there may be errors in the data. It is up to you wheether or not to purchase the game knowing that these errors exist and you are not within your right to demand a refund for what you perceive to be a "poor" game.

I can think of dozens of games in years gone by with huge problems which simply made them bad games. That does not mean that I can get my money back.

I would agree with practically all you say. Issues such as match engine, press conferences or whatever game play "bugs" or crazy things that arise in the game, take from itsenjoyment and lead people to conclude the game is good or bad. We take the game, in that regard, as it is.

However, I would put the crash bug in a different category. That goes beyond whether the game is good or bad and, in my view, is a defect. If the manufacturer suggests it may be everyone's computer that the fault, that's bad faith. If they fix it with a patch, (so that its fixed for all) I could run with that - because I know where to find it. However, there will remain those who don't access the patch. I am not sure what is the ratio between people who will donwload patch 2 and people who purchase the game.

I would suggest that an obvious solution is for SI to release the demo 4-6 weeks before the release date (whether to select forum members/volunteers) or otherwise and avail of the many who are endeavouring to assist them improve the game (not me though - I wouldn't have the time and/or it sounds like I may be banned).

I have read the first few posts and want to point something. If you buy a product from a shop and it is not fit for purpose, i.e. it does not work, you are entitled to either a repare to no cost, a replacement or a FULL refund. It is the responsibility fo the retailer and no one else. Even if they stipilate than you can not return PC games (as many do) you are still covered by the Sale Of Goods Act. If your system meets the minimum requirement then they cannot possibly refuse you a refund.

HOWEVER, S.I. are not obliged to provide anyone with a patch for the game. It has simpy become common for games to be patched in the modern day, what with access to the intenrnet and the advancement of game technology.

If you decide to install a patch, I doubt you can hold the retailer responsible for any problems it causes.

Finally, please remember that the product you purchase may have small errors or faults which are reasonable to expect and if you have bought the game for many years then you are fully aware that there may be errors in the data. It is up to you wheether or not to purchase the game knowing that these errors exist and you are not within your right to demand a refund for what you perceive to be a "poor" game.

I can think of dozens of games in years gone by with huge problems which simply made them bad games. That does not mean that I can get my money back.

I buy the game because I love the game, I have bought the game for a number of years. I am wrong to expect that these loyal customers get treated with a little more respect?

Thank you for your reply. I rejoin as follows : -

1.Very few consumers are involved in the testing process. That is SI's job and they get paid for it - ultimately by the consumer. If the end product is inadequate, then you shouldn't blame the consumer. That would be smug.

2.I am amazed that given the testing you describe, so many consumers have (on this site alone) reported so many issues which could hardly be described as minor.

3. To say raising such issues is an "attack" is unreasonble.

4.There is nothing unusual about my machine. I didn't buy it in space. It is more than adequate having regard to the specs listed on the box. The problem is the game, not my machine.

5. Everyone understands the "perfect game" is not attainable. However, any reading of these forums, and my own experience of the game, are that there are major and obvious bugs which detract significantly from any possible enjoyment of the game. At the point of sale, no one pointed out that patches would be necessary.

6.There may be many people who are enjoying the game. There may be many who are not.

7.The manual, as far as I know, did not come with the boxed set. It's very unwise to suggest that because SEGA's complaint line isn't ringing every minute that all of us who have expressed our concerns and complaints (without "attacking" anyone) are wrong.

8. I haven't trolled or insulsted and I can only surmise as to why you would want to ban someone raising difficult questions in a reasoned manner. Ban me if you wish.

9. SI have said patch 2 is out before Christmas. Understandably vague but fair enough. However, you should appreciate that there are those who will not access the patch (for one reason or another). Do you intend to ban them too?

1. He wasn't blaming the customer. He was saying that they did not encounter these issues during their testing period and that it is impossible to cater for ever possible combination of PC in existance.

2. By the same argument, I'm amazed people complain these issues are widespread when there are many multitudes more who do not have these issues. These issues are affecting a small percentage of players, hence why they are considered minor.

3. Do you believe giving SI abuse is part of "raising an issue"?

4. The problem is the game AND your machine. There is an unbounded number of PC hardware combinations. If your combination is not suited to this game, I fail to see why this is only SI's fault. Yes, it may meet the requirements specified on the box, but there is obviously a conflict between your machine and the game somewhere - it is not the case that the game is simply not working.

5 & 6. You paid for the game and you got a game. Like scoot4nat said, take it back and ask for a refund, as it is faulty for you. The reason I say "for you" is that a far higher proportion are finding the game enjoyable in its current state. You are encountering objective issues, don't try and make out as if they are present in every player's experience.

7. No one is saying you are wrong. You should be able to play the game you paid for, and hence SI are working on fixes. What he was saying was that it would appear people would rather post abuse about these issues on the forums rather than seek out technical support.

8. I'm sure his comment here was a general notice to everyone who posts, rather than directed at you.

9. Not sure how you came to the conclusion that people who raise issues or who talk about the patch will be banned. I may be wrong, but what I got from his comment is that those who continually post abuse surrounding technical issues will be banned. I.E user behaviour on this forum has consequences.

5 & 6. You paid for the game and you got a game. Like scoot4nat said, take it back and ask for a refund, as it is faulty for you. The reason I say "for you" is that a far higher proportion are finding the game enjoyable in its current state. You are encountering objective issues, don't try and make out as if they are present in every player's experience.

.

I would love it if every person who bought the game took the game back when they realised it needed a patch - I wonder what the sales figures would be?

(this obviously would never happen )

I have read the first few posts and want to point something. If you buy a product from a shop and it is not fit for purpose, i.e. it does not work, you are entitled to either a repare to no cost, a replacement or a FULL refund. It is the responsibility fo the retailer and no one else. Even if they stipilate than you can not return PC games (as many do) you are still covered by the Sale Of Goods Act. If your system meets the minimum requirement then they cannot possibly refuse you a refund.

You don't understand the Sales of Goods Act 1979 very well. The product has to be satisfactory to the market, not to the individual consumer. The producer has the requirement to act as their market suggests - ie. a computer games company making a computer game. They are required to produce a product that is deemed satisfactory for the price and the actual contents, to a standard individual - not every individual. The good must also be as described within and in relevent promotional material. They are also then required to ensure all copies of the good are to the same (or very similar) standards in all ways.

The important thing is though, a reimpursement of funds (ie a refund) is only legally available where the producer has created a scenario, either by refusal or inability, to repair or replace the good in a reasonable and appropriate amount of time. If the consumer has had any use out of the good, they are unlikely to be entitled to a refund, and instead return to the situation where the producer has the responsbility to replace/repair the product in a reasonable time period, providing the consumer requests it.

I hope I've made some kind of sense in my waffling trying to remember the exact nature of the act. Essentiallly my point is that the act is not there to primarily protect the interests of the individual, and even when it comes down to such a case, a refund (after going through neccessary legal channels) is not the likely outcome.

Thank you for your reply. I rejoin as follows : -

1.Very few consumers are involved in the testing process. That is SI's job and they get paid for it - ultimately by the consumer. If the end product is inadequate, then you shouldn't blame the consumer. That would be smug.

And thats not what we've done.

What we're trying to do is identify the problems and fix them. There's so many things that can, and do, go wrong with any computer equipment from bad updates to not updating your drivers for years on end. It's a mix of both, some will be the code which we're trying to fix and some will be PC related which we're also trying to fix.

2.I am amazed that given the testing you describe, so many consumers have (on this site alone) reported so many issues which could hardly be described as minor.

3. To say raising such issues is an "attack" is unreasonble.

That is not what was said though, although it does feel you're being very argumentative though.

There is a huge difference between reporting an issue, giving as much information as you can and responding to questions and posting in a rage demanding action this second because your issue is the most important issue in the world ever.

Many companies wouldn't even listen to anything that went slightly in that direction, we do, but it's not always that easy to ignore some of the things we're accused of.

4.There is nothing unusual about my machine. I didn't buy it in space. It is more than adequate having regard to the specs listed on the box. The problem is the game, not my machine.

5. Everyone understands the "perfect game" is not attainable. However, any reading of these forums, and my own experience of the game, are that there are major and obvious bugs which detract significantly from any possible enjoyment of the game. At the point of sale, no one pointed out that patches would be necessary.

As said this is the industry these days, the platforms are so complicated most games are patched way before release, I can rattle off 20 or so without even thinking about it (Call of Duty, Fifa to name two rather large games) most games get patched at some point because problems always surface.

6.There may be many people who are enjoying the game. There may be many who are not.

7.The manual, as far as I know, did not come with the boxed set. It's very unwise to suggest that because SEGA's complaint line isn't ringing every minute that all of us who have expressed our concerns and complaints (without "attacking" anyone) are wrong.

There was a quick start in the box which included the number.

On these forums there's people reporting issues. As I said before the Sega helpline number included in with the game has had very few calls, also the number of help requests on the Sega technical support website is quiet too this could mean many people are enjoying the game, perhaps there are some that don't have access to a telephone or the internet that are having problems as well, It's impossible to say, I would guess that a lot of people would look for some help if they were having problems.

In comparison to last year the number of people having problems is a lot smaller.

8. I haven't trolled or insulsted and I can only surmise as to why you would want to ban someone raising difficult questions in a reasoned manner. Ban me if you wish.

9. SI have said patch 2 is out before Christmas. Understandably vague but fair enough. However, you should appreciate that there are those who will not access the patch (for one reason or another). Do you intend to ban them too?

Well first of all that comment wasn't directed at you, you can't have missed the personal insults above yours? However do you feel your tone on the last two points is completely fair?