Built in to perform crap against weaker sides??

Hi,

Has anyone else found this problem? Im in my 3rd season with Spurs and am top by 5 points..

My team has beat Inter, Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool & Ars*nal away...

My 3 losses this season have come against Wolves at Home, West Brom at Home and Bolton at Home.

For some reason my easiest fixtures on paper are the hardest... they're not beating me by the odd goal, but thumping me by 3 or 4 at home? How is this so.... on the FM 09 / 08 / 07... You may get the odd upset at home or more so likely away at these places, but there is no explanation for my team just playing sh*t and them playing like Real Madrid??

If its complacency how do you correct it? I bollock them in the team talk after the loss and slate them in the post match press-conference to try and get accross that im furious and that better is needed.... but i just can't seem to perform well agaisnt teams in the bottom 5 at home. Its like the table is upside down and the teams i should be losing to i beat and the teams i should be beating wallop me??

Any help would be appreciated,

Jon.

Do you say "i expect a win" when playing these lower sides? i would imagine that would be better than some like "for the fans".

Also do you instruct your team to attack more when playing weaker teams? Looks like your'e getting done on the counter.

Yeah thought that i may be getting hit on the counter, but highlights are literally them passing around me, slipping in some outrageous through-balls and the players like New Zealands Chris Wood, scoring hattricks against me ! haha.

Yeah i also say i 'expect a win' ... its strange.. i keep Drogba, Rooney, Berbatov, Torres and co. all quiet that there places and then get ripped to shreds by these kinda sides at my place...

Also do you instruct your team to attack more when playing weaker teams? Looks like your'e getting done on the counter.

This really. Is there anything similar in the style of play which you can identify about the teams who you regularly lose against? edit: sorry just read your reply to Cooper_NUFC, and I'd really recommend watching a couple of these games in more detail so that you can see what's actually going on.

I'd suggest dialling down the attacking play against teams which are parking the bus, look to control possession and put the pressure on their defence until they crack. If you get hit on the break, then going hell for leather to try and get level is just going to make it worse as they'll find it then even easier to hit you on the break...

Are you getting indications that your team is getting complacent ie via the motivation screen during the match or from staff feedback about players? Best way to avoid complacency is to avoid going overboard with praise in the first place but if it crops up, stamp it out by demanding good performances from the players who are displaying it.

Yeah thats a good answer, thanks to both of you for your input.

Its bit of a grey area as my coaches do say.. " Team performs better against high reputation teams, and badly against lower reputation teams "... but its almsot as if there is no way of countering it ? How do you stamp that out... its great beating the Man U's and Liverpools, but not at the expense of losing to Wolves at West Brom at home..

I will consider dialing down the pressure i guess, like you say, be more patient i suppose.

Its bit of a grey area as my coaches do say.. " Team performs better against high reputation teams, and badly against lower reputation teams "... but its almsot as if there is no way of countering it ? How do you stamp that out... its great beating the Man U's and Liverpools, but not at the expense of losing to Wolves at West Brom at home..

Honest answer from me is that I don't know mate, as I'm only just starting with 10 and haven't seen that feedback yet for me to try and link to anything. My gut feeling is that it may be a case of looking to change the level of professionalism within your squad by bringing in players who have that type of personality into your team. Obviously, that could be very, very wrong though

I'd be very interested in knowing just what your coaches are describing if anyone who does know reads this thread - is it a reflection of your team's past performances which makes them say it or are they diagnosing a problem which can be fixed (perhaps a reflection of your team's overall hidden mental attributes)?

This has got to be the hardest part of FM2010 for me to overcome so far - i feel your pain...!

Just beaten Arsenal away 3-2, then liverpool away 1-0 and drew 1-1 away to wolves in consecutive games (nice fixtures huh - all away!!). Played better in both of the first two but the game was pretty even against wolves - really annoying!

I know from the previous games saying "I expect a win" away from home wasn't considered a good way to go as it put too much pressure on some of the players (new signings, youngsters, players with low mentality ratings) but i've tried various, notably (with the players my ass man reports as being cocky) i expect a performance etc but still haven't found the solution. I'm not losing but at the same time im not winning!!

Away this season i've drawn 2-2 with Hull, 2-2 with West Brom, 1-1 with Wigan & now this annoying 1-1 with wolves. I expect to draw some games, maybe the keeper has a blinder etc. but this is something consistently im obviously doing wrong due to the poor performance levels and ratings. I even watched the motivation levels of the players in this game and they were ok!

One thing i notice is that before each of these games the backroom team tell me these teams are all good versus a 4-4-2 which is the only other thing i can look at really - but i can't say im keen on the idea of changing my formation just to play wolves away - can't see united, chelsea or arsenal doing that in the prem this year!!

Yeah it does seem regardless of personnel (within reason), there are certain formations that will just simply expose others.

Interestingly i had wigan away in my next game (my next game after this is also away so 5 on the run!) and told them to 'relax and the goal will come' - still told the dodgy couple i expected a performance and the team played much better. As i alluded to above, i remember learning from the forums that putting players under too much pressure away and against rubbish teams can have a detrimental effect - but then putting the slackers under less pressure can work against you too - seems to be a bit of a balancing act depending on who's in your starting eleven!!

As Spurs ive also beaten Chelsea,Man Utd,Arsenal and Man City.Then i lose to Wigan,Hull and get hammered by Wolves

Its doing my head in and caused me to lose the title on the last game

reece i feel your pain ! Maybe it is kind of pre-built in...

It might be your players' hidden attributes. Low Consistency coupled with high Important Matches might have the effect you describe.

I agree with jack I think some players become more complacent than others they have got different mindsets like irl and the challenge is to no how to counter it.

How you supposed to counter that if its a hidden stat, i mean ... people will argue its realistic, but its not. We dont get to chat / communicate with players or see them in training to be able to work this kind of thing out...

It has changed from 2009 but its mainly about the team talk which i think has to much influence pre and mid match, you just know if you are beating a good team they will come out raring in the 2nd half.

From my experience against lesser teams you 'expect a win' in team talk....

I always play counter away, i might change it during the game.

How you supposed to counter that if its a hidden stat, i mean ... people will argue its realistic, but its not. We dont get to chat / communicate with players or see them in training to be able to work this kind of thing out...

Reports from the coaching staff highlight very low stats. Personality types are based upon certain attribute combinations (sorry I would link to a thread which detailed them but I can't find it any more in the tactics forum ). Form issues will be revealed by stats from matches and also from fans complaining about certain players. Complacency will be revealed both in the teamtalk feedback, the pre-match analysis and in the motivation screen during a match (found in home stats or away stats and selecting 'view'>'motivation' - this screen is brilliant for judging the impact of your teamtalks and deciding what teamtalk to give a player at half-time or post-match).

There may well be more indicators and feedback in 10 than there was in 09 which I've not yet come across.

We should all try to take everying into account how players react to differant parts teamtalks etc. when you are signing a player whoever scouts the player gives you a brief insight into their personality if he has a detmined character you should no that this player will give everyfing to win an the more players you have like that on your team the more likely they will not settle for complacency they will allways look to win players who are less determined need more pushing and I think that's when team talks and press conferances are important I allways tell a player I expect a performance from him if I feel he is overconfident there is no substitute for hardworking determined players if they are quality plus hardworking and determined your more likely to get results u must look for that when signing an scouting potential

Im havin the very same problem with the Spurs. I have no problem against the gooners and man u but fear playin west brom. Fresh from beatin rangers 8-2 in champ league, im 3-0 down after 45 and its like my players have never met each other. Plus Ish Millar is playing like Pele, Not sayin hes rubbish but hes not havin a good season and stat wise hes not a patch on say torres who i seem to be able to deal with easier than Ish. . Maybe its a sign of things to come. All i know is i hope i dont come up against them in europe cause i plain dont know how to beat em....

I have found weaker sides difficult to break down with them defending with 10 men behind the ball and they will cut me down on the break thats why i ask my players to shoot on sight and not to push up i also find the 1st goal very important in the fact that if i get it it opens them up a little and they then at least try to play or if they get it they go uber defensive and make it even more difficult and regards to teamtalks i tell them to relax the result will come and if not at half time i tell them show me passion

Yeah thought that i may be getting hit on the counter, but highlights are literally them passing around me, slipping in some outrageous through-balls and the players like New Zealands Chris Wood, scoring hattricks against me ! haha.

Yeah i also say i 'expect a win' ... its strange.. i keep Drogba, Rooney, Berbatov, Torres and co. all quiet that there places and then get ripped to shreds by these kinda sides at my place...

If you tell your team you expect a win, isn't this putting more pressure on them when there already under pressure to get 3 points?

Maybe try telling the players to relax and the result will come. I have use this a few times and had good results.

I haven't played on the level of the English top teams yet in FM10, but I did play the top of a league (Welsh that is...) as the strongest team. I guess that makes our situations comparable. I do agree that I struggle the most against the weaker teams in the league, just like you.

What I usually do is going to sound counter productive. I start off defensive against these weaker teams. The positive of this is that they start playing more forward, creating space between and behind their defense. If needed I mark the "get ball forward" sideline comment to create more chances. After a while I might switch to attacking or overload for 10 minutes or so in the first half and 2nd half, but this also depends on the amount of goals scored through the defensive approach.

Playing defensively and with the "get ball forward" selected against much weaker teams we seem to be getting plenty of good through balls. I'm marked as a "very cautious" manager, despite scoring 20 more goals than the runners up in the league haha.

Motivation and complacency is by my opinion not the main reason for this. It surely has its effect but I think the main reason is the high up defence line that is defaulted in all tactics without dms like 442. That kind of line is prone to counters which weaker sides usually play. Another very important thing would be the kind of weather because u cant control the game with short passing which u will certainly be advised to do in a nice dry pitch. The key I think is to watch the full match. When u do the game amazingly reveals itself and u finally get the full kick out of it. What I did also was to try the same opponent a few times and with different stiles. I tried out most of the tactical stuff this way and it was great learning experience for me.

Motivation and complacency is by my opinion not the main reason for this. It surely has its effect but I think the main reason is the high up defence line that is defaulted in all tactics without dms like 442. That kind of line is prone to counters which weaker sides usually play. Another very important thing would be the kind of weather because u cant control the game with short passing which u will certainly be advised to do in a nice dry pitch. The key I think is to watch the full match. When u do the game amazingly reveals itself and u finally get the full kick out of it. What I did also was to try the same opponent a few times and with different stiles. I tried out most of the tactical stuff this way and it was great learning experience for me.

yes but at same time if you play deep you risk the long shot bugs!!

hey,

i have just posted something in tactics that might help with this. Indirectly its the same thing.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=172063

Good lucK

LAM

yes but at same time if you play deep you risk the long shot bugs!!

I don't really believe in this long shot bug everyone is talking about. I've started playing 2010 with the patch so I donno about 10.0 but what I've seen there is no bug. I think that long shots get in as much as it is real. Maybe just a bit more. Did u see Milos Krasics goal for CSKA last cpl fixture for instance. I can remember many more. Their not that rair IRL.

i am also with spurs and i'm 2nd in the league after 29 games, won against chelsea, won against arsenal, but i get 3-3 with wolves, 3-3 with wigan, 0-4 with hull, i beat everton 5-0 away, aston villa 4-0 at home, and then draw 3-3 at ipswich. in europa league i won 6 out of six with just 2 goals concede and then i play in next round against rapid wien and draw 3-3 away and win 4-0 at home. a lot of 3-3 and 4-4 in away fixtures for me no matter if i manage wigan, spurs or din moscow. and i've seen a lot of 6-4, i won 6-4 at home against chelsea and lost 6-4 away at inter in europa league. i buy serdar aziz wich my scouts rates at 4.5 stars, pay 27mil on him and he is 6,44 average in 29 games. buy sulley muntari for his 5 tackling per game average at inter, and he has 1,7 tackles for me and gets red card 3 times in 29 games.my best tackler is davide di gennaro with 4 tackles a game playing complete forward.

and something else, i managed 3 season in russia and in my stats i have no knowledge of russia.

Just wondering, does anybody know if players with a high "important matches" number have a harder time avoiding complacency against weaker teams?

Complacency and formation is the key here.

For team talk against the weakest teams (relegation zone-ish), I always go Expect a win, and if they don't have a 2 goal cushion at half time, I plug in the hairdryer..

For formation, the weaker teams usually sit very deep with a very packed box.

In those scenarios, if you play the 4-4-2, you run the risk of being outmuscle in midfield.

If I find this happening, I sometimes change my tactic at HT to 3-5-2 (or even 3-4-3), overload.

3 defenders against 1 striker should be enough, and having enough midfielders willing to drop back will cover the times that they want to counter.