Player Valuations (Transfers)

Can anyone explain what the deal is with transfers and the purpose of valuations in this game?

Sakho (9m) - rejected a bid of 28m

Fazio (11m) - rejected a bid of 30m

Srna (11m) - rejected until 30m

Michael Turner (7m) - rejected 24 (Accepted 26m before I came to my senses and withdrew)

On the other hand, David Silva (26m) can be negotiated until you get him for 38m up front, 5m after 40 appearances. So a top end player can be had for 70% markup, but mid level players get marked up by over 300%?

I've never seen a club in real life turn down 25m for a 5m rated defender, especially as a mid to lower level team. Madrid can balk at offers, but Sunderland? Give me a break.

Will the valuations ever be tweaked by SI? This is the most consistent problem I've seen with the game. Whacky, whacky transfers. Its odd when you feel like your getting a steal on a 26m player at 43m, but bent over having to pay 33m for an 11m rated player.

Enyema, rated at 650k, costs a cool 4.6m! So how did that valuation come into play again?

Simple explanation, really; their clubs dont want to sell them, and aren't in a position where they have to sell them (relegated/financial difficulty)

oh and in Turner's case, already recently moved clubs...

Simple explanation, really; their clubs dont want to sell them, and aren't in a position where they have to sell them (relegated/financial difficulty)

oh and in Turner's case, already recently moved clubs...

Yes, but this is every transfer. You never get a player at their actual valuation, regardless of what club they are on. Unless its a bug its virtually impossible to get a player near their valuation.

Oddly, the best tactic I've found for getting value (using that in a relative manner)is sitting back and watching other teams bid on players and then scooping in at the last minute offering increased wages. Otherwise, if you bid directly, you play the ole 150-300% markup game again.

Think of it this way: if some club was sniffing around a player that you didn't want to sell, you're going to put your asking price way way up there, aren't you? That's pretty much what the AI is doing. They're telling you that unless you make an offer they can't refuse, they're not going to let their best player go.

The only time you do get players at their "face vaue" is if they are transfer listed (ie NOT wanted/needed) by their club, and thats how it should be. If they're not listed, then they clearly have a role to play, and therefore have a value to the club. That value depends on their importance to the club. Clearly, were you to enquire about Steven Gerrard, you'd be told where to get off, but were you to enquire about Lucas, you'd more than likely be paid to take him out of Anfield (if I were manager, anyways!).

Simple explanation, really; their clubs dont want to sell them, and aren't in a position where they have to sell them (relegated/financial difficulty)

oh and in Turner's case, already recently moved clubs...

The only time you do get players at their "face vaue" is if they are transfer listed (ie NOT wanted/needed) by their club, and thats how it should be. If they're not listed, then they clearly have a role to play, and therefore have a value to the club. That value depends on their importance to the club. Clearly, were you to enquire about Steven Gerrard, you'd be told where to get off, but were you to enquire about Lucas, you'd more than likely be paid to take him out of Anfield (if I were manager, anyways!).

Youre missing my point. When Blackburn buys a striker for 2m, develop him, establish him as a 15m level striker, then sell him for profit, they dont base his value on 15m plus some modifier, they sell him for 15m and make 13m in profit. In FM Blackburn would ask for 35-45m for said striker, despite the fact that he is 15m level striker.

Valuations should take all things into account, be it there actual ability or their potential.

Do you honestly believe in real life that Sakho would not be sold for 34m or Fazio for 30m? Do you believe any club in the world would turn down 25m for Turner?

There is a difference between paying a premium for a player as United or Madrid, or paying a premium because of a bidding war, or paying a premium because a team might want to keep him around....

but does the average player routinely sell for 2-300% over their valuation? No.

They are sold around their valuation because the seller either is a sellers club, is selling the player as profit (buying at a lower valuation, selling at his peak valuation), trying to drum up additional transfer funds (selling to buy), or they dont like him. (Which actually lowers his value)

None of this applies in FM because virtually EVERY transfer is done well above their valuation.

Adebayor proved himself to be a legit 18-20m striker at Arsenal. City bought him for what 24m? Would a similar 20m rated striker in FM go for 24m? Hell no. The club would balk and sell him for nothing less than 35-40m.

Its out of whack. The valuations need to be more accurate and the transfer process tweaked.

I doubt if the database is taking the "players role within the team" into account as you mentioned. A player (me or you) either meets some predetermined amount or doesnt. (Im sure there is some modifier with some level of randomness lurking beneath) I cant possibly see how the DB could analyze tens of thousands of players based on how important they may or may not be to the team or fans, in seasons that are (minus the games we play of course), purely random results determined in the DB.

If you've ever scratched you head why an opponent didn't even bother to suit up X or elected not to start X in a game, you can understand why we could question whether the DB can truly assess a players real value to team or not. Good players can rot on the bench in an AI team. Which ultimately leads back to the fact that these are predetermined valuations, which are inflated and in a lot of instances inflated to the point of ridiculousness.

Youre missing my point. When Blackburn buys a striker for 2m, develop him, establish him as a 15m level striker, then sell him for profit, they dont base his value on 15m plus some modifier, they sell him for 15m and make 13m in profit. In FM Blackburn would ask for 35-45m for said striker, despite the fact that he is 15m level striker.

Valuations should take all things into account, be it there actual ability or their potential.

Do you honestly believe in real life that Sakho would not be sold for 34m or Fazio for 30m? Do you believe any club in the world would turn down 25m for Turner?

There is a difference between paying a premium for a player as United or Madrid, or paying a premium because of a bidding war, or paying a premium because a team might want to keep him around....

but does the average player routinely sell for 2-300% over their valuation? No.

They are sold around their valuation because the seller either is a sellers club, is selling the player as profit (buying at a lower valuation, selling at his peak valuation), trying to drum up additional transfer funds (selling to buy), or they dont like him. (Which actually lowers his value)

None of this applies in FM because virtually EVERY transfer is done well above their valuation.

Adebayor proved himself to be a legit 18-20m striker at Arsenal. City bought him for what 24m? Would a similar 20m rated striker in FM go for 24m? Hell no. The club would balk and sell him for nothing less than 35-40m.

Its out of whack. The valuations need to be more accurate and the transfer process tweaked.

I doubt if the database is taking the "players role within the team" into account as you mentioned. A player (me or you) either meets some predetermined amount or doesnt. (Im sure there is some modifier with some level of randomness lurking beneath) I cant possibly see how the DB could analyze tens of thousands of players based on how important they may or may not be to the team or fans, in seasons that are (minus the games we play of course), purely random results determined in the DB.

If you've ever scratched you head why an opponent didn't even bother to suit up X or elected not to start X in a game, you can understand why we could question whether the DB can truly assess a players real value to team or not. Good players can rot on the bench in an AI team. Which ultimately leads back to the fact that these are predetermined valuations, which are inflated and in a lot of instances inflated to the point of ridiculousness.

Okay... if you had a player worth 10mil, he was your top player, scoring loads of goals, and generally being brilliant, would you sell him to a team who came in and offered 20mil? Or even 30, seeing as he's scoring reguarly for you?

Youre missing my point. When Blackburn buys a striker for 2m, develop him, establish him as a 15m level striker, then sell him for profit, they dont base his value on 15m plus some modifier, they sell him for 15m and make 13m in profit. In FM Blackburn would ask for 35-45m for said striker, despite the fact that he is 15m level striker.

ok, to use your example... Alan Shearer moved to Blackburn from Southampton for £3.3m, he developed, scored goals, helped them win the Premiership and was sold for a then world record fee of £15m.

I don't tend to bother with IRL stars for this very reason.

Instead I don't mind paying 4mill for a 1 mill rated youn player who you know is going to be worth 8mill in 3 years.

Also, as others have mentioned after a couple of game years bargains are to be had as clubs get into financial difficulty and get relegated and I also tend to keep an eye out for AI buying good players and jump in at the last minute and match their offer as the fee tends to be a lot more palatable.

The problem is that in FM there are a lot more Money than IRL.

Also, all the players you mentioned are regarded by their clubs as IMPORTANT FIRST TEAM or KEY PLAYERS. That king of player is hard to buy, unless you have a reasonably bigger reputation than the selling club. In Srna / Sakho's case, league reputation also lowers the player value you see. If they were playing in England or Spain, their value would have been a lot bigger. Also, their clubs have good finances and qualify for Europe regularly.

If this were your case, would you sell for their actual values, when you need them to progress?

Did you try to unsettle the player? If the player would want to leave, the club would me more likely to listen to offers.

And remember, IRL, you can't just get any player from any club, just because you have the money. It's called the "Manchester City Syndrome".

i agree, the transfers are a joke. its not life like at all.

You have to take into account that teams usually make more money in FM that in real life. So prices being higher is a good thing or else you would be able to buy way too many good players.

For example I have bought the following players to Atletico in my current game:

2.8.2010 - Riccardo Montolivo - 26M€

7.8.2011 - Miguel Veloso - 35M €

18.7.2012 - Yoann Gourcuff - 44,5M €

And those were done without any majoer sales on my part. Yes the prices are ridiculous, but do you think Ateltico would ever have that kind of money to spend (without selling their best players)?

So what SI really have to do is to get both the prices AND the money the teams make into control to make it realistic.

[EDIT:] D'oh. This was already mentioned. Oh well...

I think too many people defend transfers but they really do need improving. AI Teams overload players and buy for the sake of PA. It can be near impossible to sign players that nobody else has an interest in. Teams don't take into account the formation they are playing. E.g i trailed Mancini and Queresma from Inter Milan for a whole season because i needed a winger and really wanted them. It was also apparent that they weren't really getting games because Inter/Mourinho play 4-3-1-2(no wingers!!!) they were both valued at around 6-8m and i was trying to unsettle but they didn't get upset and Inter just didn't seem to want to sell. They were just sitting there rotting and they wouldn't take £20m!!!!!!!!!!! for them... so annoying. Then it comes to the summer and i still wanted them, but 2 months into it they sign Modric and then BAM Mancini is on the transfer list for £4m. It makes no sense. They must of been aware they were going to sign somebody so why wouldn't they let 1 out of 2 fringe players leave! I signed him but if i hadn't checked (because i gave up and removed from shortlist) i wouldn't have. so at the start of summer 10 window i was offering 15-20m for them each! And by the end i got him for 4. Why didn't they want to sell?

Discuss

Squad balance maybe?

So at the start of summer 10 window i was offering 15-20m for them each! And by the end i got him for 4. Why didn't they want to sell?

Discuss

Dumb AI maybe?

Youre missing my point. When Blackburn buys a striker for 2m, develop him, establish him as a 15m level striker, then sell him for profit, they dont base his value on 15m plus some modifier, they sell him for 15m and make 13m in profit. In FM Blackburn would ask for 35-45m for said striker, despite the fact that he is 15m level striker.

Valuations should take all things into account, be it there actual ability or their potential.

Do you honestly believe in real life that Sakho would not be sold for 34m or Fazio for 30m? Do you believe any club in the world would turn down 25m for Turner?

There is a difference between paying a premium for a player as United or Madrid, or paying a premium because of a bidding war, or paying a premium because a team might want to keep him around....

but does the average player routinely sell for 2-300% over their valuation? No.

They are sold around their valuation because the seller either is a sellers club, is selling the player as profit (buying at a lower valuation, selling at his peak valuation), trying to drum up additional transfer funds (selling to buy), or they dont like him. (Which actually lowers his value)

None of this applies in FM because virtually EVERY transfer is done well above their valuation.

Adebayor proved himself to be a legit 18-20m striker at Arsenal. City bought him for what 24m? Would a similar 20m rated striker in FM go for 24m? Hell no. The club would balk and sell him for nothing less than 35-40m.

Its out of whack. The valuations need to be more accurate and the transfer process tweaked.

I doubt if the database is taking the "players role within the team" into account as you mentioned. A player (me or you) either meets some predetermined amount or doesnt. (Im sure there is some modifier with some level of randomness lurking beneath) I cant possibly see how the DB could analyze tens of thousands of players based on how important they may or may not be to the team or fans, in seasons that are (minus the games we play of course), purely random results determined in the DB.

If you've ever scratched you head why an opponent didn't even bother to suit up X or elected not to start X in a game, you can understand why we could question whether the DB can truly assess a players real value to team or not. Good players can rot on the bench in an AI team. Which ultimately leads back to the fact that these are predetermined valuations, which are inflated and in a lot of instances inflated to the point of ridiculousness.

That is a valid point but you are missing one important thing.

Wenger was prepared to sell him.

Its quite simple really. If the club is prepared to sell a player then they will accept a lower offer, but if they don't want the player to leave then they will only let them go if the offer is large enough to make the manager deem it as worthwhile.

I'll post a couple of screenshots of some squads later... makes me laugh.

I tend to find myself just looking at all the players who are labelled as "wanted" by other clubs as i feel they seem to be the only players that will be available. This is wrong. There needs to be a bit more flexibility. I can have a shortlist of about 30 players who i would like and nobody(another club) else would...(and they haven't just joined their club either) and they are perfectly viable options yet none yes none of them will i actually get to sign unless i pay £50m or some other ridiculous markup!

When you find someone it is rare and it really feels like stabbing in the dark

Simple explanation, really; their clubs dont want to sell them, and aren't in a position where they have to sell them (relegated/financial difficulty)

oh and in Turner's case, already recently moved clubs...

OP post says; player X has value of 10 but they only sell him if you offer 30; I understand your respond but then I have to extend the question. If they consider this player more valueable than 10m then why not just set his value as 30m. IRL there is no such thing as estimated value and real value. I can understand some bargain margin but %300 is not a reasonable margin. If they think this player is worth 30m then his value should be around 30m. I personally dont like the overall estimated value implementation of FM, it is very misleading.

Examples of bad squad management

9 Wingers

10 potential wingers

Why do they need all those wingers? They only use 2 onfield. A maximum of 4 would be enough, but they have even more then that! Also i don't see why Hangelaand would go to Barcelona to warm the bench(he hardly played even tho it shows him in now)

OP: IRL, Lescott went to cITEH for £24M. Nobody in the football world thinks he is worth that. At most I would say he's valued at somewhere between £8M - £10M. But the price was driven up by David Moyes refusing to sell him as he was (and rightly so) a fundamental part of Everton's success. cITEH were quoted a price of £30M, IIRC, as that is what Everton thought was the value to their team. They were eventually negotiated down to £24M.

In your examples, they do seem a little extreme, but it looks like the selling team are desperate to keep their players whilst recognising that you have a shedful of money and are willing to pay over the odds for a player you want. I'm not saying that the transfer system is perfect, but what you encountered does have a resemblance to the Lescott transfer.

As for the wingers bit, well, that is very silly, I agree.

Does the name Cristiano Ronaldo ring any bells as well? £80m? He's nowhere near that actual VALUE.But that was his COST. United did not want to sell him. But Real made an unrefuseable offer so off he toddled.

Cost and Value are different things entirely. If you want the best, you pay the best. Now what you will notice is that Sakho and Fazio are both young and that alone drives up the cost, but also hey are (arguably) the best defenders at their current clubs.

Now, what I do with whoever I am amanaging is the exact same as what the AI does. For example, Clichy is valued at £12m. He's my first choice left back, he's young, and I want to keep him. Should I accept an offer of around £12m? Hell no. £20m? Nope. £30m? Your getting warmer. £40m? Tell you what £50m and you can have him.

It is the case nowadays that transfer fees ARE inflated and FM has to reflect this.

Ronaldo - £80m

Kaka - £64m

Ibrahimovic - £35m + Samuel Eto'o

Need I continue?

If you don't want to pay ridiculous money, don't. But there are many players out there you can get for their value, if you're willing to be patient. Build a relationship with the player and his manager and the cost will come down. I've seen quite a few top players end up on the transfer list after 18months too. The game doesn't end after the first transfer window!

OP: IRL, Lescott went to cITEH for £24M. Nobody in the football world thinks he is worth that. At most I would say he's valued at somewhere between £8M - £10M. But the price was driven up by David Moyes refusing to sell him as he was (and rightly so) a fundamental part of Everton's success. cITEH were quoted a price of £30M, IIRC, as that is what Everton thought was the value to their team. They were eventually negotiated down to £24M.

In your examples, they do seem a little extreme, but it looks like the selling team are desperate to keep their players whilst recognising that you have a shedful of money and are willing to pay over the odds for a player you want. I'm not saying that the transfer system is perfect, but what you encountered does have a resemblance to the Lescott transfer.

As for the wingers bit, well, that is very silly, I agree.

I'm not saying that certain clubs dont have to pay a premium, or that certain teams will only take a premium price, but in FM virtually every player is treated this way, whether the selling club is in the Championship and cash strapped or a prominent Prem team. All valuations are out of whack.

My point is this...

1. The valuations need to based on ability, potential and value to the club. A 7m rated defender should not be valued at 7m if the club will only sell for 30m. I dont neccesarily agree with it, but a simple fix to a flawed system would be for them to split the difference between their current valuation and the actual price they can be sold for (or their actual value to the club). Thus, a player like Turner (7m) would be valued at 16.5m. Thats still a very stiff price for a player like him, but that valuation represents a better picture of his value as opposed to slapping him with a 7m valuation when he will not be sold for less than 26m!

2. The idea that the AI can determine a players worth in the game is false. As mentioned above, some teams can have as many as 7-8 wingers or 5-6 strikers, yet they keep buying in those positions and will not sell any of them at their actual valuations as if they are integral, though you can take a look and see they are rotting on the bench and never get playing time. I guess, what I'm saying is, you cant rationalize "a players value to the team" as done in real life, with this game. In real life a team wouldnt buy a 9th elite winger and then refuse to sell any of the others because they are "integral". This is because the AI cannot actually judge a players value to the team in the same way we can. Their buying and selling is based on some slightly random modifier and/or pre determined valuation, which would not be that bad if the valuations were somewhat realistic.

The fact that a teams 5th winger, who is valued at 7m, will not be sold for less than 25m highlights the bad side of this game... as in real life said team would be more than willing to sell said player for 10-15m since he is NOT integral and that is an offer well above his actual value.

Does the name Cristiano Ronaldo ring any bells as well? £80m? He's nowhere near that actual VALUE.But that was his COST. United did not want to sell him. But Real made an unrefuseable offer so off he toddled.

For one, your point would have more weight if the inflated valuations werent the case for EVERY player in the game. Its not just the Ronaldo's of the world that get inflated, its even the Turners of the world or some average player on a marginal side.

If anything his sale was more realistic than FM's. In real life he was probably sold 75-100% over his actual value on the field. In FM, the average player gets sold for 200-300% more than their actual value, whether it is Ronaldo, the worlds best player, or some second string defender on a bottom of the table team.