Am I being unfair to SI here?

When I say it never fails to amaze me how many issues there are with FM, which despite being an absolutely great game (When it works effectively), it is ultimately fairly simple in comparison to other products on the market?

Shortly after getting annoyed with it tonight I loaded up Fifa on the playstation, then came back to the computer to play a bit of Hawk.

FM is, essentially, a database (Albeit a very large one) with a fairly basic UI and graphics which I must admit even in 3D look years behind the time (The way the players move doesnt help - But isn't it an evolution from Virtual Soccer) Still I love the game, graphics were never what it was all about and I would happily play all night looking at red dots moving around a screen. Just like I would on champ man watch the eye splitting flashing lights of a small text strip when a goal went in.

But the point I am making is that FM doesnt really break new ground, and should be better then this - releasing a product that year after year either isn't ready or isn't right.

I think they have been very lucky to have 15 years of history behind them, the loyalty of gamers, and the fact that ultimately the concept of being a football manager is a loved one, and there are no realistic decent competitors (IMHO) on the market.

I am just amazed though that year after year we have to face these issues from a major developer, backed by SEGA, on a game that at the end of the day shouldn't be this complex.

That said, any comment on the plans for FM2011? And if so my personal opinion would be please keep it simple, I would much rather play a game that works properly and without headaches then that your developers have spent their time coming up with another mass of features.

I think on the back of the box this year it said a year of 'polish' thats exactly what the series needs now in my opinion.

I would much rather play a game that works properly and without headaches then that your developers have spent their time coming up with another mass of features.

Welcome to the forums btw and a good first post (Y)

I think on the back of the box this year it said a year of 'polish' thats exactly what the series needs now in my opinion.

Agree with this point. Firstly I'd like to say that I love FM10 - it's a great game. But I'd be more than happy and would definitely purchase FM11 if it contained no more new features but instead was FM10, but polished, and was completely bug free. It'll never happen though.

I think they have been very lucky to have 15 years of history behind them, the loyalty of gamers, and the fact that ultimately the concept of being a football manager is a loved one, and there are no realistic decent competitors (IMHO) on the market.

I completely agree. I think thats the only thing keeping the series going at the moment unfortunatly. Many of the people on here, who label anyone who criticises the game at all "moaners", would love a football sim that deliverd on the promise the concept has as much as the rest of us.

I'm sick of every version having major bugs. Employ more people SI! Tight wads

Yes, you are being very unfair. You try producing a game of this quality and size and be so successful. It's miracle there are so few bugs considering the sheer size of the database, the amount of work that goes into it, the level of programming etc etc. And don't produce new features and 'work on other aspects of the game'? What, so stop developing and progressing? Jeez, I would love to see you try to run a business. Haha

Sorry. Rant over...

Haven't been in this section of the forum in a while, due to my laptop not been able to run FM (hopefully getting a new one). What are the 'major' bugs in this years game? As I haven't played long enough to notice any.

Yes, you are being very unfair. You try producing a game of this quality and size and be so successful. It's miracle there are so few bugs considering the sheer size of the database, the amount of work that goes into it, the level of programming etc etc. And don't produce new features and 'work on other aspects of the game'? What, so stop developing and progressing? Jeez, I would love to see you try to run a business. Haha

Sorry. Rant over...

Please pull your head out of SIs collective ass.

We paid for a product that apparently was complete and fit for release, only now to have gamebreaking flaws within. Crash Dumps, ridiculous high scoring games, long shots galore

Do SI not bother with testing this game on a variety of different machines for extended period of time before release?

What about the people who have no access to the new patch. They're currently wondering WTF is going on and have probably given up.

JOKER

Please pull your head out of SIs collective ass.

Anyone know that Sports Interactive actually had a donkey-like creature? I didn't, and I certainly didn't realise I had my head inside one. What, is there a computer in here? Or, if you mean something else, I suggest you go back to school and learn to spell.

And if you're going with the over-the-top approach that in defending SI (not that they need it) I am brown-nosing them, then I will return the favour and will suggest that in slating their product, that you think you are actually a computer genius who could do a much better job than them and you actually have had a series of chart-topping games before... What was that? You haven't?

We paid for a product that apparently was complete and fit for release, only now to have gamebreaking flaws within. Crash Dumps, ridiculous high scoring games, long shots galore

Four words.

Don't ... Buy ... The ... Game

No one is forcing you to buy the game, so if you're not happy with it, constructive criticism is fine, but don't patronise SI. Just take the game back...

Haven't been in this section of the forum in a while, due to my laptop not been able to run FM (hopefully getting a new one). What are the 'major' bugs in this years game? As I haven't played long enough to notice any.

Long shots and crap fullbacks are pretty much ruining it for me.

Example: I gave FM2010 a break a few weeks back out of frustration then one day decided to load it back up. I played 2 games, first one was fine and dandy. Next game im 2-0 up after 30 mins and again, everything is going well... then the opposition score 3 goals, all from 20+ yards, all Messi-like pearlers and all this from a mid-table Blue Square Prem' team! And yeah its probably "my tactics" even though i play an anchor man with high closing down and zonal marking which seemed to do sod all to stop the long shots.

Personally im gonna swerve it now until the next patch is out and i'll see if these problems are addressed. I simply cant play the game until they are. When you pick the worst team from all the English leagues and you're trying to battle up to the top, the last thing you need it the AI magically scoring 20+ yard specials all day long with players who have 6 for "long shots".

I don't get the point of your argument, your premises seem to be all over the place, such as wanting something groundbreaking but not wanting anything to change at the same time. You assume that you and your audience have an agreement on the issues regarding the game, when I really have no idea what you are talking about.

From your argument, the only point I can derive from it is that you would be happy with say CM 00/01 with an updated database and bug fixes.

When the SI guys design the box they don't just pull the word "polish" out of their noses and stick it on the box and then forget about it, it means that they know how important it is already.

Therefore, I disagree.

That's not saying that I don't want the game to improve though, I get crashes and the match engine is sometimes unrealistic. Scorelines are not unrealistic, although I find the strikers score too much, and other players too little. I'm happy that they constantly work on new patches along with the new game though, it shows that they care. People need to take this less seriously though, it's a game. We play it, put it down, then go out and have a life. I'm going shopping for jeans today, for example.

@other people

The "no access to patch" argument is reserved for people who are stupid. Think of something better.

FWIW, I think it is easier to score long range goals when the defenders are crap, which is the case in lower-level football. Any half decent football player, even at amateur level can crack a shot from 25 yards out when noone is defending against them. This happens very often when I've played anyway. That's why you usually man mark, tight mark and close down more when you play at a lower level IRL.

I agree with the new person,

though i dont have the first clue about computer programing, i play alot of games that seem to have no bugs, but then again none of them would have such a large database that FM has. I could not compare a seemingly faultless game such as FIFA/ call of duty to that of a purely databased game. Im sure that these others games have bugs, but they are not really noticed.

FM does get better every year, no questions or doubts.

However overall i would have to agree that these tedious faults are becoming a pain. SI should count themselves lucky that their rivals, are imo pretty god dam poor.

so, err... SI keep up the good work.. but try harder? yeah, that sounds about right.. i think.

Please pull your head out of SIs collective ass.

We paid for a product that apparently was complete and fit for release, only now to have gamebreaking flaws within. Crash Dumps, ridiculous high scoring games, long shots galore

Do SI not bother with testing this game on a variety of different machines for extended period of time before release?

What about the people who have no access to the new patch. They're currently wondering WTF is going on and have probably given up.

JOKER

In all fairness to SI, FM2010 was extensively tested and i know this because i was a beta tester. The really strange thing i noticed was that the final builds up to release were near perfect THEN when i bought the full game it seemed to have taken a huge backwards step. Long shots and rubbish full-backs etc were not a problem just before the gold release but they obviously are on the full game. :confused:

That is something i simply can't explain.

I agree with the poster when he says its time to give up new gimmicks and start concentrating on polishing the game.

Anyone know that Sports Interactive actually had a donkey-like creature? I didn't, and I certainly didn't realise I had my head inside one. What, is there a computer in here? Or, if you mean something else, I suggest you go back to school and learn to spell.

And if you're going with the over-the-top approach that in defending SI (not that they need it) I am brown-nosing them, then I will return the favour and will suggest that in slating their product, that you think you are actually a computer genius who could do a much better job than them and you actually have had a series of chart-topping games before... What was that? You haven't?

Four words.

Don't ... Buy ... The ... Game

No one is forcing you to buy the game, so if you're not happy with it, constructive criticism is fine, but don't patronise SI. Just take the game back...

And there in lies the point, I am not, and I don't profess to be. However databases should be, if the structure is right, a relatively safe form of development.

I am comparing though a market leading, top of the charts game here, that (Putting aside all of the subjective tactics wont work complaints) has some fundermental problems to the actual game working - from what these forums and my experience would have me believe.

I don't see how it is unreasonable in light of the wider computer game market to expect that it should not be shipped with this level of problems

FM does get better every year, no questions or doubts.

Really! I suppose its just a matter of opinion and yours is as valid as mine but in my opinion the game has certainly got prettier but better? (major bugs, minor bugs, general frustration) I would argue against that. Anyone else remember the addictiveness of the older pre slider, pre maths degree to beat the AI games?

While I agree there are mistakes and bugs in there that shouldn't be - the crash dumps situation is a real issue whatever game it is, and I agree with that - I still think that, considering the work that goes into the game, the number of bugs is relatively small.

I don't think we're going to get to any real agreement over this, because if we could, we would be in there working for SI

But on similar note, what would be the solution? Shipping at a later date next year? Missing next year's edition entirely? Personally, I think a less patch-reliant strategy could help. I could be completely wrong, and probably am, but it seems as though SI are thinking 'ah well this is good enough, let's stick it out there and allow the punters to pick out the issues.' I agree with what you're saying about this, but there is a lot of testing and it's not as if they haven't strived to eliminate these bugs.

Like I said, perhaps only having database updates coming out instead off full-blown patches would result in SI working harder on a bug-free product to go on the shelves?

Money prevents them missing a year. Think of the lost revenue of not sending out a game.

I know I know, silly suggestion really...

Money prevents them missing a year. Think of the lost revenue of not sending out a game.

It would and thats why they wouldn't do it - unless in my opinion there was a decent alternative football management game on the market. In which case they would more likely get more resource, then miss a year.

As we all clearly like football, I compare it to Fifa, which I always thought was fairly poor - Until ironically PES came out, and since then they have been going all out for years at each other and the standard of football playing games has improved exponentially.

Sorry SI but you really need (like every organisation) some competition! Althought obviously I hope you still come out on top

Sorry SI but you really need (like every organisation) some competition! Althought obviously I hope you still come out on top

Agree 100%, although that's something they obviously can't control. It's not their fault that some rivals can't get their acts together Competition brings out the best in everyone, in any sport or business...

I begin to find this game rather dull. I have played it for about six years. Suddenly, so much, seems completely inexplicable to me. Why are my team so hopeless?

Agree 100%, although that's something they obviously can't control. It's not their fault that some rivals can't get their acts together Competition brings out the best in everyone, in any sport or business...

Perhaps that's because it's more difficult than many realise? It's far more than just a database as suggested in Nick Mackam's post.

Perhaps that's because it's more difficult than many realise? It's far more than just a database as suggested in Nick Mackam's post.

I know it is, and I was being slightly flippant, but the point I was making was that, and again correct me if I am wrong, FM 2010 is not in the scheme of things technically one of the most complex games on the market?

I am quite happy to be wrong. I'm not getting at SI, but I do think it would be beneficial to the market place though to have some competition. I think in any industry an incredibly loyal fan base and lack of real competition isn't good in the long run.

I begin to find this game rather dull. I have played it for about six years. Suddenly, so much, seems completely inexplicable to me. Why are my team so hopeless?

How many times has this been said by how many of us? We all want the game to be hard but it seem like SI are increasingly designing a game to beat the genius' who can beat their AI in the previous game and maybe taking their eye off the bugs that are incresingly prevalent in recent titles.

Yes, you are being very unfair. You try producing a game of this quality and size and be so successful. It's miracle there are so few bugs considering the sheer size of the database, the amount of work that goes into it, the level of programming etc etc. And don't produce new features and 'work on other aspects of the game'? What, so stop developing and progressing? Jeez, I would love to see you try to run a business. Haha

Your argument there is utterly invalid. The OP doesn't claim to be a video game designer. If he did your argument would be acceptable. By your logic, nobody can ever criticise any piece of music except musicians themselves. Only Coldplay could ever criticise a U2 album, and even then U2 would legitimately be able to say "Well we sell more records than you so we win."

This is easily one of the most stupid things I've read today.

In all fairness to SI, FM2010 was extensively tested and i know this because i was a beta tester. The really strange thing i noticed was that the final builds up to release were near perfect THEN when i bought the full game it seemed to have taken a huge backwards step. Long shots and rubbish full-backs etc were not a problem just before the gold release but they obviously are on the full game. :confused:

That is something i simply can't explain.

The beta testing that goes on in-house is the part I worry about. I don't doubt that the beta testers "in the wild" are capable individuals, but really you're only getting the game when it's very close to production and, as we've seen, bugs by that stage are very difficult to remedy (assuming they're using SCRUM methodology.)

I agree with the poster when he says its time to give up new gimmicks and start concentrating on polishing the game.

This iteration of the game had very few gimmicks and by all accounts very little polish. I would be interested to know if it's a talent deficit at a programming level or at a leadership level. It must be one of them.

Perhaps that's because it's more difficult than many realise? It's far more than just a database as suggested in Nick Mackam's post.

This is true. All games can be reduced to "maths". Physics engines, particle dispersers etc. However FM isn't as complex as something like GTA IV. It may have more lines of code (I doubt it, though), but in reality it's still a very linear progression: rules being applied to a database, enormous amounts of number crunching. Something like GTA has set pieces and far more environmental variables.

I know it is, and I was being slightly flippant, but the point I was making was that, and again correct me if I am wrong, FM 2010 is not in the scheme of things technically one of the most complex games on the market?

Absolutely correct. I made this observation the other day: how is it that Bioshock can run in full 1920x1080 resolution on my laptop and not consume as much of the processor as the 3D engine in Football Manager? It beggars belief how inefficient their match code is.

I am quite happy to be wrong. I'm not getting at SI, but I do think it would be beneficial to the market place though to have some competition. I think in any industry an incredibly loyal fan base and lack of real competition isn't good in the long run.

I think that's part of the problem. They don't have any competition. When was the last time PC Gamer gave an FM game anything other than high eighties or low nineties? They aren't striving for excellence, they're just doing enough to keep the crowd from getting annoyed. And it's clearly not working any more.

I know it is, and I was being slightly flippant, but the point I was making was that, and again correct me if I am wrong, FM 2010 is not in the scheme of things technically one of the most complex games on the market?

I am quite happy to be wrong. I'm not getting at SI, but I do think it would be beneficial to the market place though to have some competition. I think in any industry an incredibly loyal fan base and lack of real competition isn't good in the long run.

It really depends on what your take is on what is and what isn't complex.

Football management games offer technical and design challenges that are very different to traditional games and in some cases, they are more complex and in others, just different and less common in nature to other titles.

One way to look at us is that we offer more support for older hardware and operating systems than most others do and we also develop our PC and Mac versions concurrently. It allows us to release a hybrid disc on with both versions on it, so everybody gets it at the same time and you can even play your PC save on your Mac and vice versa.

In contrast, most other developers will see their Mac versions arrive months later and even then they are often ported by a third-party out of house. Worse still, they might not offer any Mac support at all. That's because our approach is a serious and complex technical challenge on so many levels and we're very proud about the way we develop FM. We feel it's the right approach for us and our audience and is something we want to do as well.

It's no accident that we've survived for over 15 years, because while we do make mistakes, and every company does, we work incredibly hard and while sometimes things move a little slower because of things like the above, we're improving and evolving all the time.

We also take all of your comments on board and we're always listening, so thanks for sharing them with us.

It really depends on what your take is on what is and what isn't complex.

Football management games offer technical and design challenges that are very different to traditional games and in some cases, they are more complex and in others, just different and less common in nature to other titles.

One way to look at us is that we offer more support for older hardware and operating systems than most others do and we also develop our PC and Mac versions concurrently. It allows us to release a hybrid disc on with both versions on it, so everybody gets it at the same time and you can even play your PC save on your Mac and vice versa.

In contrast, most other developers will see their Mac versions arrive months later and even then they are often ported by a third-party out of house. Worse still, they might not offer any Mac support at all. That's because our approach is a serious and complex technical challenge on so many levels and we're very proud about the way we develop FM. We feel it's he right thing to do and something we want to do as well.

It's no accident that we've survived for over 15 years, because while we do make mistakes, and every company does, we work incredibly hard and while sometimes things move a little slower because of things like the above, we're improving and evolving all the time.

We also take all of your comments on board and we're always listening, so thanks for sharing them with us.

While you're here, can I ask if the Mac version uses emulation? I think I'm right in saying it's installed using a java based installer, so I was wondering if you guys use some sort of customised virtual machine? It doesn't *feel* like a native App (white mouse pointer is an annoyance BTW!)

While you're here, can I ask if the Mac version uses emulation? I think I'm right in saying it's installed using a java based installer, so I was wondering if you guys use some sort of customised virtual machine? It doesn't *feel* like a native App (white mouse pointer is an annoyance BTW!)

It's native and doesn't use emulation. The actual core engine that powers FM was initially written on the Mac and in some cases performs better on Mac operating systems.

The installer is Java based and third-party. The reason we use it is because it's cross platform compatible for both PC and Mac (and there are very few out there that are or do what we want them to).

Ideally some day we'd like to write our own installer and do it our own way so that we can have it just the way we want it. But then there's only so much a developer can do, right? Installers are a big business in themselves, but that's just one of the many technical challenges we'd like the opportunity to have a stab at some day.

p.s. I really like the white mouse pointer personally - but that's just an art decision. You can skin and change them yourself if you really wanted.

It's no accident that we've survived for over 15 years, because while we do make mistakes, and every company does, we work incredibly hard and while sometimes things move a little slower because of things like the above, we're improving and evolving all the time.

We also take all of your comments on board and we're always listening, so thanks for sharing them with us.

Ok, I feel suitably guilty for my petty criticism now, but it genuinley is out of a love for this game. However in my opinion previous versions were pretty close to a perfect computer game and in recent times it seems we are maybe moving away from that.

I can actually live with minor bugs, it's the increasing complexity of tactics these days that are making me feel stupid and I don't need a game to do that when I can get that for free:)

I think my main annoyance/gripe with the game is getting to the stage where you have to micro-manage nearly everything in the game.A lot of us want to get in from a hard days work and knock out 10-15 games to relax but instead were stuck with All the tinkering of tactics in game,pointless/boring press conferances and team talks that u have to have a degree in physcology to understand because common sense in team talks doesnt work.All this adds up to a frustrating and hugely time consuming game where your constantly fiddling instead of playing games.

Ok, I feel suitably guilty for my petty criticism now, but it genuinley is out of a love for this game. However in my opinion previous versions were pretty close to a perfect computer game and in recent times it seems we are maybe moving away from that.

I can actually live with minor bugs, it's the increasing complexity of tactics these days that are making me feel stupid and I don't need a game to do that when I can get that for free:)

Hey don't feel guilty. Your comments are valid and appreciated by us, so thanks for sharing them.

The only way we can ensure we get it 'right' is by listening to the feedback we receive. We have recognised there has been an issue with the depth of FM, because in some areas it's very detailed and in others not.

For FM 2010, we've started to address the tactical ones by including the Tactics Creator and we have some nice plans to evolve this further in the future.

There are many types of FM player that we have to cater for and respect. Some are looking for a detailed experience and in the case of tactics, actually enjoy diving in deeply and trying to figure them out. For others, it's not the gaming experience they're looking for, so it's always a question of trying to find the right balance and it's not easy.

Take training as a prime example. The average fan rarely sees or takes part in training sessions, so it's much more difficult to form an opinion of how it should be done in FM, let alone make it fun and not a chore.

Most fans can form opinions on the other stuff, because you can read the papers, read internet sources, watch matches on TV, attend games or even play football. But not so many train to the standard of professionals or have trained any.

We're no different either. We're just a bunch of football crazy guys making a game. We don't always have the answer and even after SI sent me away to start my coaching qualifications a few years ago to get a better insight, I'm still none the wiser on how we could approach it correctly in terms of the game. I have however had an amazing time and experience helping coach the QPR Ladies team and loved every minute of it, but you'd literally be creating a new game in itself if you want to go to that level of detail.

Maybe it's just me but it seems the harder you guys work to produce a better product that tries to balance the needs of all players the harder it gets for casual gamers like me to just pick up and play.

It's probably just nostalgia but it feels like when the game was being knocked out of someone's garage for a tenner it was more accessable.

You do have my interest in furthering the tactics creator thougth as this could really be the thing that gets part timers like me back into FM.

Maybe it's just me but it seems the harder you guys work to produce a better product that tries to balance the needs of all players the harder it gets for casual gamers like me to just pick up and play.

It's probably just nostalgia but it feels like when the game was being knocked out of someone's garage for a tenner it was more accessable.

If only you saw our office...

Take training as a prime example. The average fan rarely sees or takes part in training sessions, so it's much more difficult to form an opinion of how it should be done in FM, let alone make it fun and not a chore.

I was head coach at a tennis club for five odd years way back when and can pretty much guarantee that any type of real life training simulation would be repetitive and tedious.

Technical training: explain, drill, correct, drill, correct, drill

Fitness training: explain, drill

Strategic training: explain, drill, anaylse, drill

6-8 hours a day, 5-7 days a week. Made me extremely fit, but is not the most fun thing to do in the world. I'd hate to see it as part of FM.

We don't always have the answer and even after SI sent me away to start my coaching qualifications a few years ago to get a better insight, I'm still none the wiser on how we could approach it correctly in terms of the game. I have however had an amazing time and experience helping coach the QPR Ladies team and loved every minute of it, but you'd literally be creating a new game in itself if you want to go to that level of detail.

SI make employees get a coaching qualification?!

I'm sick of every version having major bugs. Employ more people SI! Tight wads

Well, SI has stated that it is impossible to release any game without any bugs in the first time around. But FM 2010 is still playable.

ide love to no how much each patch cost to make and how many man hrs go into each patch how much off an effect that has on the next instalment of the game . ide also like to see 2 versions next year the usual 2011 version which usaly round £30 an a fully patched 2010 version runing 2011 database for say £20 with option to buy both for £40 that way if 2011 was in need off patch we would still have fully updated version to play not mention the extra money it could bring in to further improve thew game or spend patching next years lol

Agree with this point. Firstly I'd like to say that I love FM10 - it's a great game. But I'd be more than happy and would definitely purchase FM11 if it contained no more new features but instead was FM10, but polished.

I was under the impression that is what FM10 was supposed to be all about, fine-tuning what's there rather than offering anything genuinelly new. Most press reviews appear to agree with me on that one.

I think the opening poster is a tad unfair, actually. What he doesn't realize is that a football management game like this is one of the most complex video games one could code for. Yes, the 3d visuals and sugar coating SI are doing are leagues behind your average 3d game - the core of the code just isn't though. Whereas most video games, single player experiences in particular tend to be one-way-ticket rollercoaster rides through level scripts, some form of narrative and a bit of visual splendor, a footie management game is nothing like that.

Not only are there various programm modules interacting with each other (transfer AI, tactical tools, match engines), meaning that everything adjusted has its knock-on effect not within each module but on all the other ones, but no developer has the benefit of being in control over the experience. The player can go and do whatever he likes within the constraints of the game - it's not about the size of a database, it's about that the player as well as the AI managers in this virtual football world can interact with each other as well as this database in endless ways a developer hasn't even thought about. Nor playtested, as playtesting infinity is a bit of a rough job to apply for.

Compare this to a level of Half Life2, where every single encounter is scripted like an action movie setpiece, and you can imagine the designer sitting his chair orchestrating every single step of yours, almost as if he was directing a movie rather than making a game. Mind, I'm not arguing this to be less complex. Clearly scripting such complicated movie setpieces is complex in and on itself. As the term script would suggest, it's a different kind of complexity though. One that allows a designer control over what might happen in-game rather than merely guessing.

Ten years ago there was an article in a magazine that compared the lines of code of a popular German footie management game of that time to a popular real-time strategy game of that era, Age Of Empires. Whilst this footie management game wasn't as indepth a sim as Football Manager has always been, its code was still multiple times bigger than Age Of Empire's. Suffice it to say that there might be a reason why most football management brands have a history with release date bugs - I could name at least two games that were borderlining on the outright unplayable when they were released. And compared to this, the balancing issues with injuries, closing down and long shots that appear to sneak into each FM iteration look like the minor issues they either are for you - or aren't. Not trying to make up excuses, but trying to put things into perspective a little, as the one employed in this thread appears to be a tad skewed.

SI sent me away to start my coaching qualifications a few years ago to get a better insight, I'm still none the wiser on how we could approach it correctly in terms of the game. I have however had an amazing time and experience helping coach the QPR Ladies team and loved every minute of it.

Haha, that explains the lack of aggression, tackling and closing down and the excessive emotional players in FM2010!

For every one of you that say you wouldn't mind FM11 to just be polished and bug-free, there'll be two or three people that rage about how there's nothing new.

Polish is what patches are for.

Even with the occasional bug (none of which are game-breaking unless you're overly dramatic), the game is still very playable, and SI have a very decent patching schedule.

Polish is what patches are for.

This thread has now generated the most stupid thing I've read on two consecutive days.

Polish isn't something that happens after you've written your code. It should be something that happens as you write it.

With a SCRUM cycle there should be plenty of time available for debugging and any retrospective polishing.

Patches fix bugs. Bugs in FM are usually tiny subversions of reality. Polish is different.

Even with the occasional bug (none of which are game-breaking unless you're overly dramatic), the game is still very playable, and SI have a very decent patching schedule.

There have been several reported showstoppers. The only way for me to progress through the game is to holiday over matches. Pretroll: I'm running a Mac which is well within the system requirements (game speed is four stars with 3 playable leagues running.)

Well, SI has stated that it is impossible to release any game without any bugs in the first time around. But FM 2010 is still playable.

Again it's not playable for everyone. It's impossible for SI to release a game without bugs, but nonetheless, games do ship without major bugs. The fact that SI have always had a readily available method of fixing their bugs after the fact has been their downfall. If an N64 version of the game was their bread and butter (i.e. a version where you could not readily patch the game), then I suspect we might see a slightly tighter ship.

I was under the impression that is what FM10 was supposed to be all about, fine-tuning what's there rather than offering anything genuinelly new. Most press reviews appear to agree with me on that one.

You're exactly right. There's a new interface and a few new ways of channeling the backroom stats, but nothing major.

I think the opening poster is a tad unfair, actually. What he doesn't realize is that a football management game like this is one of the most complex video games one could code for. Yes, the 3d visuals and sugar coating SI are doing are leagues behind your average 3d game - the core of the code just isn't though.

I would disagree. Object Oriented Programming is all about cookies and cookie cutters, to borrow a comp. sci. 101 analogy. SI establish a database and then create cookie cutters for things like potential ability translating to actual ability, stat rises, tactics, manager transfer strategies, etc. All games boil down to cookie cutters and maths.

However, SI have it easy in the respect that they only need to code the cookie cutters for one season. It's just the same season after season, with a few events that only occur once in a while (board take-overs, world cups, etc.)

Compare that to something like GTA, Fallout 3, or any sandbox game and you can see that the AI, physics engines, collision detection... all of this adds up to make them more complex than FM. They are different types of complexity but different standards too.

I don't mean to discredit SI when I say that, because it's to their credit that I and many others would mention FM in the same breath as games like Fallout 3. For the record, Fallout 3 remains one of the buggiest games I ever played, and it's still not as bad as FM 2010.

Whereas most video games, single player experiences in particular tend to be one-way-ticket rollercoaster rides through level scripts, some form of narrative and a bit of visual splendor, a footie management game is nothing like that.

Need to compare FM to something similar in the 3D world. FM is a sandbox type game. Therefore compare it to a sandbox type game, not something like Uncharted.

Not only are there various programm modules interacting with each other (transfer AI, tactical tools, match engines), meaning that everything adjusted has its knock-on effect not within each module but on all the other ones, but no developer has the benefit of being in control over the experience. The player can go and do whatever he likes within the constraints of the game - it's not about the size of a database, it's about that the player as well as the AI managers in this virtual football world can interact with each other as well as this database in endless ways a developer hasn't even thought about. Nor playtested, as playtesting infinity is a bit of a rough job to apply for.

Absolutely, but don't be confused into thinking that the data extrapolated after sixty seasons is something ad hoc that SI have created. They write algorithms, not content.

Compare this to a level of Half Life2, where every single encounter is scripted like an action movie setpiece, and you can imagine the designer sitting his chair orchestrating every single step of yours, almost as if he was directing a movie rather than making a game.

This is true, but you're just talking about the environment there. You're ignoring enemy AI, ally AI, particle dispersion, collision detection, physics engine (The Half-Life 2 physics engine!! Are you seriously ignoring that?!) etc.

Mind, I'm not arguing this to be less complex. Clearly scripting such complicated movie setpieces is complex in and on itself. As the term script would suggest, it's a different kind of complexity though. One that allows a designer control over what might happen in-game rather than merely guessing.

I agree with this, to an extent.

Ten years ago there was an article in a magazine that compared the lines of code of a popular German footie management game of that time to a popular real-time strategy game of that era, Age Of Empires. Whilst this footie management game wasn't as indepth a sim as Football Manager has always been, its code was still multiple times bigger than Age Of Empire's.

I don't see AoE as a worthwhile comparison. I also don't doubt that SI's code is much more voluminous than a lot of games, because I have doubts about the efficiency of the code.

Suffice it to say that there might be a reason why most football management brands have a history with release date bugs - I could name at least two games that were borderlining on the outright unplayable when they were released.

After 2 seasons my FM 2010 is literally unplayable. I physically cannot progress.

And compared to this, the balancing issues with injuries, closing down and long shots that appear to sneak into each FM iteration look like the minor issues they either are for you - or aren't.

Agreed.

Not trying to make up excuses, but trying to put things into perspective a little, as the one employed in this thread appears to be a tad skewed.

It's nice to see someone who has a rational take on matters. Often when you argue on here that FM is flawed or should have been in development longer the fanboys take a "YOU HATE OUR TROOPS AND WANT THEM TO DIE!!!" approach to the argument. They say things like "Don't buy the game then" or "I'd like to see you do better." IMO the above is well thought out for the most part.

Haha, that explains the lack of aggression, tackling and closing down and the excessive emotional players in FM2010!

LOL.

Anyone know that Sports Interactive actually had a donkey-like creature? I didn't, and I certainly didn't realise I had my head inside one. What, is there a computer in here? Or, if you mean something else, I suggest you go back to school and learn to spell.

And if you're going with the over-the-top approach that in defending SI (not that they need it) I am brown-nosing them, then I will return the favour and will suggest that in slating their product, that you think you are actually a computer genius who could do a much better job than them and you actually have had a series of chart-topping games before... What was that? You haven't?

Four words.

Don't ... Buy ... The ... Game

No one is forcing you to buy the game, so if you're not happy with it, constructive criticism is fine, but don't patronise SI. Just take the game back...

Sheer Buffoonery! We don't have to be computer geniuses to see problems within the game.

I've paid for the product, i dont expect errors within. If i bought a faulty item of clothing i'd take the product back to be repaired, id also make known the inconvenience it had caused me.

Its quite obvious you've havent come across the crash dump problem

It's stupid when people compare FM to most other games. The reason there are more bugs in FM is because it is trying to simulate real life so anything that is slightly less than realistic is a bug.

Just imagine if you held Civilization IV up to the same standards. People would be going on about the "square borders bug" and the "club-wielding warrior captures entire city bug."

The reason there are more bugs in FM is because it is trying to simulate real life so anything that is slightly less than realistic is a bug.

That's no reason for there to be extra bugs in the game, balance issues yes, bugs no.

People just don't realise that bugs are inevitable.

So at OP.... Yes

It's stupid when people compare FM to most other games. The reason there are more bugs in FM is because it is trying to simulate real life so anything that is slightly less than realistic is a bug.

It's not stupid. FM is a video game. So is GTA IV. They both try to simulate real life. One is a real life where any old moron can become a football manager, and the other is a real life where you can wonder around New York with a machine gun.

I agree that many of the so-called bugs are actually balance issues, but it should be painfully apparent to you that there are a lot of actual bugs: 3D match engine crashing, freezing, crash dumps, £90p/w bug, etc that are in the game.

Just imagine if you held Civilization IV up to the same standards. People would be going on about the "square borders bug" and the "club-wielding warrior captures entire city bug."

These are conceits of the game. There are certain limitations in Civ that make it playable. You have to have the square borders and the possibility of people with clubs capturing cities. It's not the same thing.

That's no reason for there to be extra bugs in the game, balance issues yes, bugs no.

Agreed. The fact that the £90p/w bug has been around for two years now really speaks volumes.

People just don't realise that bugs are inevitable.

So at OP.... Yes

Bugs are inevitable, but you shouldn't ship with so many bugs. Certainly there shouldn't be any showstoppers in FM, and there are.

It's stupid when people compare FM to most other games. The reason there are more bugs in FM is because it is trying to simulate real life so anything that is slightly less than realistic is a bug.

Just imagine if you held Civilization IV up to the same standards. People would be going on about the "square borders bug" and the "club-wielding warrior captures entire city bug."

Hang on a minute, those flight simulators are so good at "simulating real life" that real pilots use them and they are never full of bugs. Bet there is more code to write for them as well.

Hang on a minute, those flight simulators are so good at "simulating real life" that real pilots use them and they are never full of bugs. Bet there is more code to write for them as well.

Trying to simulate the world of football as well as individual matches is far more difficult than simulating the handling of an aircraft or a car. SI are attempting to simulate human behaviour (of thousands of different people at once) not just the response of a machine to a given input.

You may say that when FM falls short of reality it is not a bug but a "balance isssue" but that doesn't stop everyone (including the OP) calling it a bug. The only real bug that I have come across in FM10 is the crash dumps.

@perpatov

GTA and Civilization are not held up to reality and berated for failing to live up to it. They simple aren't intended to be realistic which is why "square borders" doesn't get called a bug.