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whilewolf2
23-11-2009, 22:16
Has anyone played long enough to get a good feel for the quality and believability of the newgens?

The last version I played was 2007 and it was very good apart from obvious flaws in the way newgens were generated.
Physical attributes were too closely tied to PA meaning it was near impossible to find pacey lower league strikers or big strong and tall target men playing bellow the top division.

The other problem was that some attributes are IRL much more likely to occur in conjunction with others itís very rare to see a good dribbler with poor technique or a good penalty taker who is a poor finisher these relationships were not recreated by the game.

The last and most important problem was the way the attributes were created seemed to take no account of the attributes relationships with one another and the fact some high stat values are way more useful when they occur with others. E.g. aggression and tackling, Jumping and heading, finishing and composure, creativity and decisions.
When a new player is created attributes are assigned based on position and CA. The CA determines the total value of all 49 stats and the attributes are awarded in such a way that the ones deemed vital to the playerís natural position get higher values. The problem is that to the computer the two players out lined bellow have the same value.
Player A: Loyalty 20, Consistency 1, others attributes those of a top class centre-back
Player B: Loyalty 1, Consistency 20, other attributes exactly the same as player A
To the computer these two look, while being created, to be equal but in reality Player A is an infuriating underachiever who will either warm the bench of a top class team for most of his career, or slip down the leagues until the standard is such that his average level of performance earns him a spot and his occasional top class displays are just a bonus. While Player B will likely flit about between big clubs in Europe putting in consistently excellent displays were ever he goes.

johntesh
23-11-2009, 22:27
quality newgens seem especially sparse this year, in 10 years, i've bought maybe 5-6 prospects, 3 turned out to be wonderkids however. comparative to last year's version, i would probably have bought 20 players by now.

nev147
23-11-2009, 23:12
Well crouchy has started a thread called 2039 (pretty self explanatory) and one person asked about the standard of keepers as the standard on 09 or lack of them was apparant. He gave a screenshot of the highest valued keeper at around £13m and he looked average and he showed the European keeper of the year and he was the same. Based on that the keepers don't look great.

Take a look at the thread its very good, where various different questions are answered. There is also a bit about the most expensive players and their attributes so take a look mate. :)

bleventozturk
23-11-2009, 23:16
Those two keepers were really good in my opinion. Their keeper attributes like handling, reflexes, one on ones at around 18-20. What more can you ask?

The problem in FM09 was that the regen keepers would never improve with training. That is fixed in FM2010.

The only problem is with the regens in DM C and M C positions having very low attributes in marking. I don't know if it will be fixed but it sure is annoying for me.

Aaron Armstrong
23-11-2009, 23:23
I thought those keepers were quality..

Golaxi
24-11-2009, 00:03
im in 2014 and they are all rubbish. dont ever play a game in the lower leagues with a financial belt because loanees will become out of existence! thanks si! yet again the game only lasts 2 months!

nev147
24-11-2009, 00:17
Those two keepers were really good in my opinion. Their keeper attributes like handling, reflexes, one on ones at around 18-20. What more can you ask?


I thought those keepers were quality..

Just taken another look and yeah I was a bit harsh on them and they are both under 24.

Enrico Senesi

Aerial Ability 15
Command of Area 14
Rushing Out 4
Decisions 13
Agility 10

Just the areas that are not great but the other attributes are very good.

It was more the fact that the highest valued keeper was only around £13m and in comparison to G.Buffon there is a big difference in both monetary terms and ability. :)

Golaxi
24-11-2009, 00:39
rushing out 4! thats not the best keeper in the world! robert green is better than that!

that kind of stat vulnerability is dangerous down in league 2 even!

nev147
24-11-2009, 01:49
rushing out 4! thats not the best keeper in the world! robert green is better than that!

that kind of stat vulnerability is dangerous down in league 2 even!

Not sure what you mean?

I stated earlier that in relation to the OP there was a thread that had been holidayed untill 2039 and showed various things, among them being the quality of the keepers. I said that from looking at this the standard was not that good, but two other people disagreed. So I took another look at the two keepers and thought that ok I was being a bit too critical on them but the attributes listed were aimed at showing that they did have weaknesses, and I would have expected the best keeper in the world to be more expensive than £13m. :)

The Laughing Man
24-11-2009, 02:11
Since 07 things have improved but they are still far from perfect. I see a lot of high potential players who will never amount to anything because they have a buzzard and unrealistic distribution of attributes.

Eg I have seen high pa strikers with passing of 1! Even with a lot of training it is unlikel to rise beyond 7 or 8.
In reality if you can shoot the ball at goal with accuracy you are likely to also be able to pass with reasonable accuracy. A player so lacking in basic skills would be unlikely to ever get a youth contract with a decent club.
Similarly I have seen attacking midfielders and wingers with very low attributes for off the ball. Again in reality a player with such poor movement and intelligence would never get a youth contract.

I think players coming through the youth team of clubs at higher levels should have a minimal level of ability for most attributes. I don't think they should have below 7 in most attributes ( dependent on position)

IbaltaxGrape
24-11-2009, 02:22
I'm in the year 2024 currently and have found the regens to be ok, younger ones tend to have a lot of weak and strange combinations of abilities but they get more rounded with age.

As someone else mentioned, the marking needs to be addressed in dmcs, and also dcs. There are far to many defensive players who are total crap at marking, it doesn't make much sense.

IbaltaxGrape
24-11-2009, 02:28
Also I think SI really need to look at how the regen abilities are created because its clear that all the players receive their abilities based on templates on each position, with some variation. There are 2 problems I have noticed with this 1. Every player in the same position is virtually a carbon copy of each other with slight variations eg. All strikers have strong finishing and heading in the current game...every single one has similiar strengths and weaknesses. In reality there is far more variation in the types of striker that there can be. Not all are equally adept at heading and finishing. Second problem is the actual templates aren't great for the most part...too many wingers with no positional abilities, too many players that are technical masters but mentally handicapped.

nev147
24-11-2009, 02:52
Since 07 things have improved but they are still far from perfect. I see a lot of high potential players who will never amount to anything because they have a buzzard and unrealistic distribution of attributes.

Eg I have seen high pa strikers with passing of 1! Even with a lot of training it is unlikel to rise beyond 7 or 8.
In reality if you can shoot the ball at goal with accuracy you are likely to also be able to pass with reasonable accuracy. A player so lacking in basic skills would be unlikely to ever get a youth contract with a decent club.
Similarly I have seen attacking midfielders and wingers with very low attributes for off the ball. Again in reality a player with such poor movement and intelligence would never get a youth contract.

I think players coming through the youth team of clubs at higher levels should have a minimal level of ability for most attributes. I don't think they should have below 7 in most attributes ( dependent on position)


Also I think SI really need to look at how the regen abilities are created because its clear that all the players receive their abilities based on templates on each position, with some variation. There are 2 problems I have noticed with this 1. Every player in the same position is virtually a carbon copy of each other with slight variations eg. All strikers have strong finishing and heading in the current game...every single one has similiar strengths and weaknesses. In reality there is far more variation in the types of striker that there can be. Not all are equally adept at heading and finishing. Second problem is the actual templates aren't great for the most part...too many wingers with no positional abilities, too many players that are technical masters but mentally handicapped.

Yeah I could not agree more!!! :)

The Laughing Man
24-11-2009, 02:52
Also I think SI really need to look at how the regen abilities are created because its clear that all the players receive their abilities based on templates on each position, with some variation. There are 2 problems I have noticed with this 1. Every player in the same position is virtually a carbon copy of each other with slight variations eg. All strikers have strong finishing and heading in the current game...every single one has similiar strengths and weaknesses. In reality there is far more variation in the types of striker that there can be. Not all are equally adept at heading and finishing. Second problem is the actual templates aren't great for the most part...too many wingers with no positional abilities, too many players that are technical masters but mentally handicapped.

Agreed, the templates need some work and more variety. E. G for strikers ther should be templates for all the different types that the tactics creator recognises: target man, poacher, trequardista, deep lying forward etc

I had a look at crouchaldinhos thread and it was noticable that all the strikers he showed had mediocre passing ability at best . The top scorer in the premiereship had passing 9! That is very unlikely to happen in real life.

outtasync
24-11-2009, 04:04
I find the number of world class regens are quite well balanced, however there are still defenders who can't jump at all, strikers with no composure whatsoever, regens who start with 1 bravery, 1 concentration etc.

BigCisHere
24-11-2009, 04:21
Come on, you can't compare 23/24 year old keepers to Gianluigi Buffon...first of all keepers peak around 30 or so. Which is where Buffon is at. Their stats will improve still, and the more they play, the more they will improve. On FM08 with AS Roma, I had Gianluca Curci. His communication (i think) skill was pretty low (single figures) at the start of the game. I played him regularly for about a season, and he had increased it to 13 or 14. With a couple more seasons, he managed to increase it to around 15 or 16. I won't pretend to be an expert here, but £13m for a 24 year old keeper sounds pretty darn good to me. Yeah, okay, a couple of their stats could be better, but assuming they have room to improve, that is nothing that matches and training won't improve as they get older. Do you think Buffon was world class at 24? Do you think he was the completed article by that age? I don't think anyone would say so. I would be more interested in seeing keepers who have had more a chance to develop. In fact I think I'm gonna post in the thread to see if he can find any :P

hassebasse80
24-11-2009, 08:07
On my game I'm in the year 2020. It seems like every regen on earth starts with quite low bravery,positioning and/or off the ball.

What I do like is that the best regens have different stat, unlike last year where every striker had all physical stats at almost 20, and dribbling,finishing,first touch 20, and passing 12 :)

All round attributes are toned down a bit, and that is perfect I feel.

Also I have seen quite a few goalkeepers that where superb, and that was very rare in FM2009

Geordieboy52
24-11-2009, 08:56
I've just got a 16 y/o from my academy and his stats are so good I have called him in to the England squad to ensure nationality for later; he's dubbed the next Glenn Hoddle and I'm in 2015.

charlo116
24-11-2009, 10:11
I have a 20 yo wonderkid striker that i picked up for free, he's been amazing so far.

Riz Remes
24-11-2009, 10:27
...regens who start with 1 bravery, 1 concentration etc.

I'm going to have to ask about this one as it seems a bit odd... If no newgens ever started with low figures in some attributes, in the long term there would be no-one in the game with low values in these attributes. Especially as concentration is likely to improve as the player ages and bravery could also still improve in some cases. What is the point of having the attribute range start from 1 if newgens starting out at such value in some attributes is considered a problem ? :)

overdozt
24-11-2009, 10:27
Come on, you can't compare 23/24 year old keepers to Gianluigi Buffon...first of all keepers peak around 30 or so. Which is where Buffon is at. Their stats will improve still, and the more they play, the more they will improve. On FM08 with AS Roma, I had Gianluca Curci. His communication (i think) skill was pretty low (single figures) at the start of the game. I played him regularly for about a season, and he had increased it to 13 or 14. With a couple more seasons, he managed to increase it to around 15 or 16. I won't pretend to be an expert here, but £13m for a 24 year old keeper sounds pretty darn good to me. Yeah, okay, a couple of their stats could be better, but assuming they have room to improve, that is nothing that matches and training won't improve as they get older. Do you think Buffon was world class at 24? Do you think he was the completed article by that age? I don't think anyone would say so. I would be more interested in seeing keepers who have had more a chance to develop. In fact I think I'm gonna post in the thread to see if he can find any :P

Buffon, at the age of 23, moved to Juventus for a record fee (for a GK) of €51.5 million.

For beginners, Buffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianluigi_Buffon

nev147
24-11-2009, 10:46
Come on, you can't compare 23/24 year old keepers to Gianluigi Buffon...first of all keepers peak around 30 or so. Which is where Buffon is at. Their stats will improve still, and the more they play, the more they will improve. On FM08 with AS Roma, I had Gianluca Curci. His communication (i think) skill was pretty low (single figures) at the start of the game. I played him regularly for about a season, and he had increased it to 13 or 14. With a couple more seasons, he managed to increase it to around 15 or 16. I won't pretend to be an expert here, but £13m for a 24 year old keeper sounds pretty darn good to me. Yeah, okay, a couple of their stats could be better, but assuming they have room to improve, that is nothing that matches and training won't improve as they get older. Do you think Buffon was world class at 24? Do you think he was the completed article by that age? I don't think anyone would say so. I would be more interested in seeing keepers who have had more a chance to develop. In fact I think I'm gonna post in the thread to see if he can find any :P

I understand your points, but I'm not trying to compare a 23 year old to Buffon and saying he is poor I am comparing Buffon (the best keeper in 2010 attributes wise) to the best keeper in 3039, and I'm saying that based on the fact that the highest value keeper is £13m (would assume that he one of the top keepers in 3039) in 3039 looks a bit dissaponting as there were big keeper problems in FM09, and based on 3039 (I know just one sample but the only one available to me that I am aware of) and based on his stats I thought the best keeper in 3039 would be an excellent player, maybe not in the league of Buffon but not too far off. Yes i agree that they will improve a bit but I would say that they have done most of their developing already. :)

Riz Remes
24-11-2009, 11:32
rushing out 4! thats not the best keeper in the world! robert green is better than that!

that kind of stat vulnerability is dangerous down in league 2 even!

"Rushing out" is not a how good/bad kind of attribute. This attribute defines how often the player rushes out from his line to clear the ball. So it is similar to the "Tendency to punch" attribute. So even a world class goalkeeper can have a low value in "rushing out" if he tends to not do it much.

BigCisHere
24-11-2009, 11:37
Well, first off, Buffon is a unique example of what a keeper can be. He is far and away in my opinion, the best keeper there is and ever has been and that there probably will be for years.

@overdozt - I think you kind of missed my point, unless I missed yours and you're just stating it with no intention. Regardless of his transfer fee, he was not the keeper then that he is today. Yes he was good, so are those keepers shown in the screenshots. They also have plenty of time to develop. Their goalkeeping attributes are that to rival many of the greatest keepers today. It would be interesting to find out exactly who they could be compared to. I may load up FM and use their attributes as a filter. Training and experience will develop many attributes, and they could easily come to rival Buffon in 6 or 7 years.

@nev147 - I never played FM09, but I have read a lot lately about people saying there were keeper problems. I also understand your point about it. Their attributes have already developed exceptionally. So yes, in that sense they have developed mostly already. The only things they need to improve are their mental attributes. Which will come in time.

Also how much would you guys be willing to part with to sign that keeper? If he is the best keeper in the game. Also bearing in mind he is 24, and could probably play top level football for 10 more years. Personally I would probably go up to £30 million and if I had the money, maybe more. I signed Igor Akinfeev for £15m upfront and £15m over 4 years. Might have been more than he was worth. But he has been phenomenal for my Arsenal team. £30 million is not all that far off the €50 million that Buffon moved for. I'm not sure of the exact exchange rate.

Anyway, like I said, Buffon is an exception to any rule you want to put in place. He is one of those once in a lifetime keepers (of which we have 2 or 3 right now). I doubt if we will ever see his like again, and it is probably not unrealistic that there is no keeper as good as him. But I would place them pretty close.

santy001
24-11-2009, 12:01
Buffon has nothing on the likes of Banks and Yashin really, he had a spell where he was truly great but nowadays he certainly isn't the keeper he was 3 - 4 years ago. Same with Petr Cech, few years ago I would have said it was between him and Buffon for who was the best keeper, now both of them leave quite a bit to be desired at times.

I'm currently in 2014 myself, and due to a tendency of my scouts only finding midfielders I've signed 4 regen midfielders. One is already in the line-up as a left winger, his only stats that are 10 or below are heading, long shots, marking, decisions, flair, off the ball, jumping and positioning.

Now heading - he's a small, pacey winger ergo its perfectly understandable.
Long shots - not all wingers are excellent at this.
Marking - no explanation necessary.
Decisions - he only has 2 decisions to make usually, cross or cut inside but still at 8 its not too bad.
Flair - more of a hardworking winger than overly talented, similar to the likes of say Liam Lawrence.
Off the ball - would be nice if it was higher, but its not ruining him.
Positioning - so he's hopeless at being in defensive positions - most wingers are.

I do have a DC/DM/MC regen, who looks rather hopeless for the first two positions at the moment, however he is 17 years old, with training and the right mentors he can easily be a good DM in the future.

DanGLiverpool
24-11-2009, 12:07
im in 2014 and they are all rubbish. dont ever play a game in the lower leagues with a financial belt because loanees will become out of existence! thanks si! yet again the game only lasts 2 months!
The good thing in this game is that you can't rely on getting a loanee from your big parent club, and get him to score 40+ a season and you go to the top in a few seasons. That imo wasn't realistic at all.

I've played with lower league and am in 2019, and I rarely loan players, as I built a squad capable enough to win games without relying on loanees. Doing Dafuge's challenge, in League 1 in 2019/2020 season, all is good:thup:

DP
24-11-2009, 12:23
Well, first off, Buffon is a unique example of what a keeper can be. He is far and away in my opinion, the best keeper there is and ever has been and that there probably will be for years.

@overdozt - I think you kind of missed my point, unless I missed yours and you're just stating it with no intention. Regardless of his transfer fee, he was not the keeper then that he is today. Yes he was good, so are those keepers shown in the screenshots. They also have plenty of time to develop. Their goalkeeping attributes are that to rival many of the greatest keepers today. It would be interesting to find out exactly who they could be compared to. I may load up FM and use their attributes as a filter. Training and experience will develop many attributes, and they could easily come to rival Buffon in 6 or 7 years.

@nev147 - I never played FM09, but I have read a lot lately about people saying there were keeper problems. I also understand your point about it. Their attributes have already developed exceptionally. So yes, in that sense they have developed mostly already. The only things they need to improve are their mental attributes. Which will come in time.

Also how much would you guys be willing to part with to sign that keeper? If he is the best keeper in the game. Also bearing in mind he is 24, and could probably play top level football for 10 more years. Personally I would probably go up to £30 million and if I had the money, maybe more. I signed Igor Akinfeev for £15m upfront and £15m over 4 years. Might have been more than he was worth. But he has been phenomenal for my Arsenal team. £30 million is not all that far off the Ä50 million that Buffon moved for. I'm not sure of the exact exchange rate.

Anyway, like I said, Buffon is an exception to any rule you want to put in place. He is one of those once in a lifetime keepers (of which we have 2 or 3 right now). I doubt if we will ever see his like again, and it is probably not unrealistic that there is no keeper as good as him. But I would place them pretty close.

A 23 year old making such a claim.

:D

Don't suppose you remember Peter Schmeichel?

BigCisHere
24-11-2009, 12:29
yep, I remember Peter Schmeichel, best keeper Man Utd ever had :P

Still would probably say Buffon is slightly better, but Schmeichel was my hero as a kid, I wanted to be a keeper, and had a Man Utd shirt with his name on it :)

whilewolf2
24-11-2009, 17:42
I'm going to have to ask about this one as it seems a bit odd... If no newgens ever started with low figures in some attributes, in the long term there would be no-one in the game with low values in these attributes. Especially as concentration is likely to improve as the player ages and bravery could also still improve in some cases. What is the point of having the attribute range start from 1 if newgens starting out at such value in some attributes is considered a problem ? :)

The problem isnít that some players start with low attributes but the kind of player who is starting with low attributes and which attributes are low.
You may have X number of players with Bravery 1 in the initial BD and after a soak test the number of players with Bravery 1 might be exactly the same but the players with Bravery 1 will look very different.
In the DB these players entered by researchers will almost all be creative players who donít have defensive responsibilities that would require them to tackle often.
The Newgen players with Bravery 1 will crop up in positions that require Bravery DMs who have the stats to be hard working ball winners but routinely pull out of 50-50s etc.

The other problem is that these Low Attributes are appearing too often in high PA players.
As I said in my first post one low stat can drastically affect his performance levels.
The scouted players donít have this prevalence of low attributes in the top class players.
A high CA player with a low stat in a key attribute will perform significantly worse then his CA would indicate
After thirty game years, while the number of players in the game with a PA of 120 (for example) might be exactly the same as the number in the initial DB. If 33% of those players have a key attribute so low they never perform to championship standard then the pool of championship players has shrunk by a third.
IRL its performance levels that determine which youngsters are given youth contracts and players who perform below the level of their peers are not offered contracts even if they do have some impressive skills when looked at in isolation.

Riz do you work on the Newgen code?

Golaxi
25-11-2009, 00:40
The good thing in this game is that you can't rely on getting a loanee from your big parent club, and get him to score 40+ a season and you go to the top in a few seasons. That imo wasn't realistic at all.

I've played with lower league and am in 2019, and I rarely loan players, as I built a squad capable enough to win games without relying on loanees. Doing Dafuge's challenge, in League 1 in 2019/2020 season, all is good:thup:

try doing it with barnet! i can barely afford to have 13 players! 13 players! how am i meant to play a season with 13 players?

and some of my players are still on wages under 700 pounds!

i dont think quality loan players is unrealistic at all. it happens in real life its realistic. thanks for clearing up the rushing out attribute on keepers remi but can you please answer something about this please? there is no future loan players for lower leagues. all the top teams have emptied their reserves. i cant keep playing seasons with 13 players.

johntesh
25-11-2009, 10:29
Buffon has nothing on the likes of Banks and Yashin really, he had a spell where he was truly great but nowadays he certainly isn't the keeper he was 3 - 4 years ago. Same with Petr Cech, few years ago I would have said it was between him and Buffon for who was the best keeper, now both of them leave quite a bit to be desired at times.

I take it you don't follow Juventus?

This season he's had quite a number of games where he's been on par with the best he's ever been.

whilewolf2
26-11-2009, 17:25
Bump to try and get a response to my points from Riz

santy001
26-11-2009, 17:30
I take it you don't follow Juventus?

This season he's had quite a number of games where he's been on par with the best he's ever been.

Well this season I haven't seen too much of him, mainly watching him towards the tail end of last season because there was a lot of the games on down the pub I go but still I certainly wouldn't put Buffon down as one of the greatest goalkeepers ever, because he has lacked the one thing which makes a player great - being great over a sustained period of time. David James is a fantastic keeper on his day, he is a million miles away from being an all time great goalkeeper.

tottenhamfmo7
26-11-2009, 17:42
I've signed a decent Greek regen...

Blaupunkt
26-11-2009, 17:47
"Rushing out" is not a how good/bad kind of attribute. This attribute defines how often the player rushes out from his line to clear the ball. So it is similar to the "Tendency to punch" attribute. So even a world class goalkeeper can have a low value in "rushing out" if he tends to not do it much.

i am going to guess that a lot of people didn't realise that "rushing out" means how often the keep will do this but thought it would mean how good the keep is at rushing out. ;)

daley thompson
26-11-2009, 18:14
This may not be a comment on newgens but rather international managers, but in 2017 there's not a single generated player in the England squad. Italy has none. Brazil has none. France has one. Argentina and Spain have two. Eight years in the future you'd expect to see someone under 24 playing for the major international teams.

reli515
26-11-2009, 20:35
This may not be a comment on newgens but rather international managers, but in 2017 there's not a single generated player in the England squad. Italy has none. Brazil has none. France has one. Argentina and Spain have two. Eight years in the future you'd expect to see someone under 24 playing for the major international teams.

Do you have these leagues (the countries you mentioned) on fully playable? If not you'll get fewer regens I believe, which will mean fewer quality players to take the place of national team players. I play on a huge DB with over 100k players and I haven't noticed any problems in regen quality. Three seasons in I've found one world class regen (started with ca 140 pa 198 at 16, now 18 and in my first team with CA of 187) and several other very promising young regens that could be world class/stars depending on how they develop over the next 4-5 yrs. The one problem I've noticed is that the AI doesn't tend to be very good at developing players, which can lead to lower stats, especially on players from argentina/brazil etc. that you can't get till they're 18. This is a bit unrealistic, as over the long term these teams (barring a bunch of great regens who start with high CA, which is rare) won't be top teams over time.

108
26-11-2009, 23:50
Definitely a problem with the distribution of attributes.

The amount of defenders i've seen come through the ranks with Tackling 18, Jumping 15, Heading 15, then Marking 2. It's ridiculous.

Alot of the AM's also have a tendency to have low Flair or Creativity. In real life, AM's are mostly the most skillful and creative.

crouchaldinho
27-11-2009, 00:25
I've put up two saves in 2039 for download on the 2039 thread, so you could always take a look at those to see what the regens are like.

bigdanio
27-11-2009, 15:36
'The Next Ashley Cole' was rubbish, he left me for a rival :(
'The Next Glenn Hoddle' was rubbish! Couldnt pass for toffee