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oldsoldier reincarnated
29-12-2007, 12:37
I decided today to try to prove that there is definitely something wrong with the shots to goal ratio in FM2008. Those of you that have seen some of my other posts will know that I am no “fanboy” so I started this exercise very much from the “I am right, this game is FUBAR” perspective. I was also intrigued that one of newspapers in UK printed a “goal to shots” ratio table for last seasons Premiership. (and this season so far). I was sure this was the information I needed to finally prove to myself that there was a problem.

Firstly, I will not re-create this table as it will take too much space however for 2006/7 the variation was Bolton top (15.60%) to Watford bottom (6.96%). For 2007 so far this is Everton top (18.09%) to Derby bottom. (6.04%).

Having just completed my first season managing Aston Villa and finishing a creditable third, I decided to use the data from this season as my benchmark.

Aston Villa 2007/8 (FM08)
Shots – 510
On Target – 282
Goals – 62
Ratio Scored – 12.16%
On Target Ratio – 55%

These figures somewhat surprised me, the shots to goals ration is about where I would expect it to be based on the real Premiership ratios. However, further research showed me that last season; Man Utd had the best accuracy rating of the premiership with 46% of their shots being on target. My ratio of Aston Villa at 55% is too high. To check this I also looked at 4 other teams, Arsenal (1st), Middlesbrough (20th), Wigan (18th but least goals scored) and Man City (10th). Sorry, I did not do all 20 teams as even getting this far was pretty tedious.

Arsenal 2007/8 (FM08) – 1st
Shots – 648
On Target – 355
Goals – 73
Ratio Scored – 12.26%
On Target Ratio – 54.7%

Middlesbrough 2007/8 (FM08) – 20thShots – 339
On Target – 150
Goals – 32
Ratio Scored – 9.4%
On Target Ratio – 44.2%

Wigan 2007/8 (FM08) – 18th
Shots – 334
On Target – 150
Goals – 21
Ratio Scored – 6.28%
On Target Ratio – 44.9%

Man City 2007/8 (FM08) -10th
Shots – 542
On Target – 297
Goals – 43
Ratio Scored – 7.9%
On Target Ratio – 54.8%

These figures seem to prove to me that there is little wrong with the shots to goal ratio (maybe slightly too low) but the big issue is in the amount of shots that hit the target being at least 25-30% too high.

Also, last season Man Utd won the league by generating 552 chances with only Arsenal and Liverpool getting above 500. It would appear that there are also a few too many chances being created at the top end, but the bottom of the league is realistic (Watford 336 in 2006/7). It was also interesting to see that Man City, controlled by the AI, had an even bigger issue with the “shots to goal” ration than I did. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

If what I have discovered is accurate then the match engine is getting too many shots on target, but if the overall “shots to goal” ratio is reasonably realistic, then the Goal Keepers must be saving more to balance it out (not so much super keeper as well balanced keeper). http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

To stop this post rivalling “war and peace” for length, I will post the goal keeper stats and my conclusions to follow.

oldsoldier reincarnated
29-12-2007, 12:37
I decided today to try to prove that there is definitely something wrong with the shots to goal ratio in FM2008. Those of you that have seen some of my other posts will know that I am no “fanboy” so I started this exercise very much from the “I am right, this game is FUBAR” perspective. I was also intrigued that one of newspapers in UK printed a “goal to shots” ratio table for last seasons Premiership. (and this season so far). I was sure this was the information I needed to finally prove to myself that there was a problem.

Firstly, I will not re-create this table as it will take too much space however for 2006/7 the variation was Bolton top (15.60%) to Watford bottom (6.96%). For 2007 so far this is Everton top (18.09%) to Derby bottom. (6.04%).

Having just completed my first season managing Aston Villa and finishing a creditable third, I decided to use the data from this season as my benchmark.

Aston Villa 2007/8 (FM08)
Shots – 510
On Target – 282
Goals – 62
Ratio Scored – 12.16%
On Target Ratio – 55%

These figures somewhat surprised me, the shots to goals ration is about where I would expect it to be based on the real Premiership ratios. However, further research showed me that last season; Man Utd had the best accuracy rating of the premiership with 46% of their shots being on target. My ratio of Aston Villa at 55% is too high. To check this I also looked at 4 other teams, Arsenal (1st), Middlesbrough (20th), Wigan (18th but least goals scored) and Man City (10th). Sorry, I did not do all 20 teams as even getting this far was pretty tedious.

Arsenal 2007/8 (FM08) – 1st
Shots – 648
On Target – 355
Goals – 73
Ratio Scored – 12.26%
On Target Ratio – 54.7%

Middlesbrough 2007/8 (FM08) – 20thShots – 339
On Target – 150
Goals – 32
Ratio Scored – 9.4%
On Target Ratio – 44.2%

Wigan 2007/8 (FM08) – 18th
Shots – 334
On Target – 150
Goals – 21
Ratio Scored – 6.28%
On Target Ratio – 44.9%

Man City 2007/8 (FM08) -10th
Shots – 542
On Target – 297
Goals – 43
Ratio Scored – 7.9%
On Target Ratio – 54.8%

These figures seem to prove to me that there is little wrong with the shots to goal ratio (maybe slightly too low) but the big issue is in the amount of shots that hit the target being at least 25-30% too high.

Also, last season Man Utd won the league by generating 552 chances with only Arsenal and Liverpool getting above 500. It would appear that there are also a few too many chances being created at the top end, but the bottom of the league is realistic (Watford 336 in 2006/7). It was also interesting to see that Man City, controlled by the AI, had an even bigger issue with the “shots to goal” ration than I did. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

If what I have discovered is accurate then the match engine is getting too many shots on target, but if the overall “shots to goal” ratio is reasonably realistic, then the Goal Keepers must be saving more to balance it out (not so much super keeper as well balanced keeper). http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

To stop this post rivalling “war and peace” for length, I will post the goal keeper stats and my conclusions to follow.

LSS
29-12-2007, 12:52
Thanks for making this analysis. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

This is exactly what I suspected.

dafuge
29-12-2007, 13:18
I thought that the major complaint was that the human goals to shots ratio was much lower than the AI's, this seems to suggest that they are very similar. What was the goals to shots ratio like for all the clubs combined in the matches they played against your team?

George Graham
29-12-2007, 13:28
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dafuge:
I thought that the major complaint was that the human goals to shots ratio was much lower than the AI's, this seems to suggest that they are very similar. What was the goals to shots ratio like for all the clubs combined in the matches they played against your team? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It also depends on certain situations- most markedly with the sheer amount of one v ones that are generated using certain tactics.

After all SI will have already performed such tests before releasing the patch- but where caught out once the human manager chucked a spanner in the works.

Des Tiny
29-12-2007, 13:29
I am clearly seeing no major problem with these stats the only thing it needs a little bit is a decrease in shots on target, I am nearing the end of my season i BSN so I will try and do a similar mini analysis and if I can find the real BSN stats from last season somewhere.

CowRonaldo
29-12-2007, 13:43
It's more of a creating chances bug.

If it's too easy to create chances, for example through balls always on target you get a lot more 1-on-1 situations. To make it so the game doesn't result in 8-3 scorelines, it makes it impossible to score 1-on-1s so the score doesn't go too high.

What needs to be done is to make it harder to create chances and this can be done by making defenders better. When you watch games in real life, defenders like Carvalho and Terry rarely let in through balls but it the match engine it happens all the time.

postal postie
29-12-2007, 13:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CowRonaldo:
It's more of a creating chances bug.

If it's too easy to create chances, for example through balls always on target you get a lot more 1-on-1 situations. To make it so the game doesn't result in 8-3 scorelines, it makes it impossible to score 1-on-1s so the score doesn't go too high.

What needs to be done is to make it harder to create chances and this can be done by making defenders better. When you watch games in real life, defenders like Carvalho and Terry rarely let in through balls but it the match engine it happens all the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but the game is pre calculated before the match and re caluclated every time you go to the tactics screen and back to the match.
there's no need to do unfair things like this to stop the score getting two high because all they have to do is make the re/calculations not make that many chances.

wwhy would they have, for example, one function that calculates the scores and the amount of chances etc, and then another fucntion that looks at the previous function and say 'to many goals, better make sure the 1 on 1s dont all go through'?

CowRonaldo
29-12-2007, 13:56
Either way, the chances created has to be lowered signifigantly.

GhtY
29-12-2007, 13:59
How do you get this data? Is it from ingame or somekind of editor? I would like to check my own stats too.

oldsoldier reincarnated
29-12-2007, 14:03
Sorry all, a bit delayed with the final analysis, bathing 2 small children interrupted my flow a bit.

However, to answer Dafuge’s question.

The ratio’s against Aston Villa for season 2007/8 are:
Opposition shots: 401
On Target: 194
Goals Against: 33

This gives a shot conversion accuracy for the opposition of 8.2% and an accuracy of 48%. As I finshed third, I think that the 8.2% is fairly realistic, however, I think it shows again that there are too many shots on target. The combined premier league opposition managed to get a better accuracy against Aston Villa than Man Utd managed in the whole season 2006/7.

Will finish off the rest of the analysis now and hopefully post it tonight (story time permitting)

oldsoldier reincarnated
29-12-2007, 14:06
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GhtY:
How do you get this data? Is it from ingame or somekind of editor? I would like to check my own stats too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi GhtY

Sorry, no easy way to get the data, I have spent all afternoon going through the save file I made at the end of the 2007/8 season and checking all the appropriate match summary's in the split screen view.

T-Bag
29-12-2007, 14:13
I did the same thing a while back and my stats were very similar to yours.

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...2039463?r=6112084563 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/8572039463?r=6112084563)

One thing I would mention is i've done about another 7 seasons since but I have stopped tracking the data. But as my team has got better the problem has become worse.

George Graham
29-12-2007, 14:14
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CowRonaldo:
It's more of a creating chances bug.

If it's too easy to create chances, for example through balls always on target you get a lot more 1-on-1 situations. To make it so the game doesn't result in 8-3 scorelines, it makes it impossible to score 1-on-1s so the score doesn't go too high.

What needs to be done is to make it harder to create chances and this can be done by making defenders better. When you watch games in real life, defenders like Carvalho and Terry rarely let in through balls but it the match engine it happens all the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot on- the defending is actually so poor that defenders withot lightning pace are absolutely useless as they fail to block not only passing avenues but allow players to run through them.

IMO SI made a mistake by quite obviously taking the easy way out and nerfing finishing, rather than fixing the woeful defending.

T-Bag
29-12-2007, 14:15
sorry, need to scroll down a bit in that post to see the stats.

I made a spreadsheet to record the results and work out the %'s etc and logged them after each match.

oldsoldier reincarnated
29-12-2007, 15:12
Ok, so I left the analysis with an assumption that there were too many chances being created, but the overall shots to goals success ration was “OK”. If this has any shred of truth, then the goalkeepers should be saving more shots than for real. I have managed to find this data for the real 2006/7 season on goalkeepers. I have used James, Hahnemann and Friedel as they were the only 3 that played all 38 matches.

Hahnemann (Reading) 2006/7
Shots on target – 211
Saves – 164
Goals Conceded - 47
Saves Percentage – 78.5%

James (Portsmouth) 2006/7
Shots on target – 180
Saves – 138
Goals Conceded – 42
Saves Percentage – 76.7%

Friedel (Blackburn) 2006/7
Shots on target – 207
Saves – 153
Goals Conceded – 54
Saves Percentage – 73.9%

These are the figures for 3 of the teams from my 2007/8 season with Aston Villa

Aston Villa 2007/8 FM08 – 3rd
Shots on target – 197
Saves – 174
Goals Conceded – 23
Saves Percentage – 88.3%

Man City
Shots on target – 201
Saves – 164
Goals Conceded – 37
Saves Percentage – 81.6%

Middlesbrough – 20th
Shots on target – 318
Saves – 247
Goals Conceded – 71
Saves Percentage – 77.6%

So, based on these figures it would seem that the Gks are indeed performing about 15% better than their real life counterparts, and that is balancing out the more shots on target. I get the distinct feeling that overall the match engine is Ok (I do not believe that I am saying that, but the numbers do not lie), but their need to be a small tweak on two of the component parts (the number of shots on target and the performance of the Gks) to bring it into line with reality.

This analysis may come as a surprise to some out there (it did to me). I think we have actually got used to a match engine that gave us more goals to shots than real life and that FM08 is trying to rectify that, all be it that it is not quite their yet. Let’s face it based on this season’s real numbers these would be realistic figures for Arsenal, Aston Villa and Derby per every 10 chances created, which would suggest its the quality of the finisher and the quality of the chance that counts.

Arsenal PL 2007/8
Shots 10
On target 4.4
Goals 1.5
Chances in season - 512 (2006)

Aston Villa PL 2007/8
Shots 10
On target 4.2
Goals 1.6
Chances in season - 367 (2006)

Derby PL 2007/8
Shots 10
On target 4
Goals 0.6
Chances in season – 336 (2006)

Please feel free to pick holes, disagree or generally “flame away”. I will try to defend this as best I can. Any comments from SI would be much appreciated.

Njal_tw
29-12-2007, 15:21
So I decided to look at some data from my current Barcelona side. They are currently 23 matches into the 2011/12 season and are destroying the opposition, so I started out with the hopes that they would make a good conversion rate to show that there isn't too much of a problem.

Overall (23 games into the season, all competitions (except friendlies):
Shots: 402
Shots on Target: 231
Goals: 68
Ratio Scored: 17%
On Target Ratio: 57%
Shots on Target to goals ratio: 29%
Goals/game = 2.96
Shots/game = 17.48
SoT/game - 10.04

Kind of farcical. The shots to goals ratio is on par with the best in real life, but that figures since I'm on top of the league in FM. However, my team is being allowed to create far too many chances. Over 17 shots a game is stupid especially considering how good the shots/shots on target ratio is. The numbers would be even worse if it wasn't for some of my midfield throwing chances away.

Player:------Goals-Shots on Target-Shots
Dos Santos:----1----------12--------18
Iniesta:-------2----------14--------30
Xavi:----------2----------14--------28
VDV:-----------0----------15--------30

The rest of the major shot takers were
Bojan:--------15----------43--------67
Messi:---------6----------29--------40
Mikel:---------9----------18--------38
Walcott:-------5----------11--------20
Eto'o:--------10----------26--------37
Ronaldinho:----6----------21--------38
Reyes:---------2----------10--------16

Pangalaticgargleblaster
29-12-2007, 16:12
I dont know why everybody is so suprised or shocked at how totally unrealistic football manager is in a tactical and mathematical sense, the people who program the games are software desingers who know very little about football, if you want to see a real match were the centre forwards actually convert the occasional one on one chance, go to a real game

oldsoldier reincarnated
30-12-2007, 05:13
I have had another look this morning at some of the statistics in the game and compared them against the real statistics for the Premier League.

Yellow Cards:
FM08 season 2007/8: 1387
Premier league 2007/8 (up to 28th Dec): 635
Premier League 2006/7: 1201

Red Cards:
FM08 season 2007/8: 62
Premier league 2007/8 (up to 28th Dec): 33
Premier League 2006/7: 52

Goals:
FM08 season 2007/8: 879
Premier league 2007/8 (up to 28th Dec): 511
Premier League 2006/7: 931

FM08 season 2007/8: Arsenal win league 73 goals, Wigan (worst) 18th with 21 goals
Premier League 2007/8 (up to 28th December): Best Ars/ManU – 36, worst Derby 9
Premier League 2006/7: Best ManU – 83, worst Watford/Man City – 29

This would suggest that the disciplinary part of the game is about right but that the amount of goals being scored is a bit low, especially with all the big scores in the Premiership this season. Here is an interesting fact on corners though; it looks like I have got this right:

FM08 season 2007/8 Goals form Corners:
Aston Villa 9 (Human Control)
Arsenal 8
Reading 7

I think that the most telling statistics I have found are in the player stats menu under shots on target. First off, these are the real stats for 2006/7

1. Ronaldo 46.2%
2. Drogba 43.5%
3. Rooney 41.7%

From my FM08 season this is the comparison:

1. Ronaldo 72%
2. Owen 69%
3. Richardson 68%

Even more frightening than this is the fact that the top 85 players on the list in my FM08 season are better than Rooney in the real premiership. So I think that this confirms the supposition that the game is creating a few too many chances, with way too many on target, meaning the Gks are playing too well to keep the goals a little bit too low (sorry, a bit convoluted but I do not think that there is anything straight forward about the match engine).

I have seen the argument here that SI just need to make the defence better, however I would be concerned that if you do this without toning down the Gks performance then there will be too few goals scored. Also, making the defence better is not gong to change the accuracy of the shooting, which definitely needs to be toned down.

Just my random thoughts

gubbs
30-12-2007, 07:51
Either this is all wrong, based on supposition or the people playtesting FM are utter crap.

Perhaps they should invite people like you down for a weekend, put you up in a local Travelodge or something and have you sort these games out prior to being released broken, then patched to be broken in a different fashion, then patched again et al.

WJ
30-12-2007, 08:42
There are too many shots at goal (on and off target), that's the problem with this match engine. (kind of what you are saying right?)

In recent matches in real life with high scores we had:

Chelsea 4-4 Aston Villa ( 17 shots vs 13)
Spurs 5-1 Fulham ( 14 vs 12)
Sunderland 0-4 Man United (12 vs 19)
Spurs 6-4 Reading ( 18 vs 13)
Everton 1-4 Arsenal ( 12 vs 10)

Not a single game where a team has more than 20 shots. In FM I rarely have a match with less than 20 shots (on+off target).

To keep the scores realistic (which was not the case in the beta patch version, I easily won nearly everygame with a 3 goal difference, with same amount of shots that I have now) they made the goalkeepers a lot better, resulting in the "superkeeper"- myth.

kurtsimonw
30-12-2007, 12:14
First post on here, but something I've clearly noticed (With the patch) is the amount of goals scored.

In my first season as Villa, finished the season as top scorers (74) and conceeded the 3rd highest (58). I think I kept 3 clean sheets all season, not sure if it's awful tactics or just something wrong with the game.

oldsoldier reincarnated
30-12-2007, 13:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kurtsimonw:
First post on here, but something I've clearly noticed (With the patch) is the amount of goals scored.

In my first season as Villa, finished the season as top scorers (74) and conceeded the 3rd highest (58). I think I kept 3 clean sheets all season, not sure if it's awful tactics or just something wrong with the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I played the season as Aston Villa, finshed 3rd with 62 goals scored and 33 conceeded, mind you I do play a fairly defensive, counter attacking 4-1-4-1 (acknowledgement to Loversleeper).

I did by a good right back, as that is certainly one problem with Villa at the beginning of 2007, and a good DM as they did not have any.

oldsoldier reincarnated
31-12-2007, 05:18
A quick stats update from the weekends Premier League Fixtures.

10 Matches
34 Goals
188 Shots
83 Shots on target
105 Shots off target
Conversation rate (goals to shots) 18%
On Target Rate 44%

I was surprised that the overall statistics for the weekend were in line with the season’s expectations I used from 2006/7 in the original analysis, especially with the high scoring games at Spurs and Everton. In fact both Reading and Arsenal had a 100% conversion rate of shots on target (4 shots / 4 goals).

There is also another interesting statistic that I am not sure how it is reported in the game. In the matches this weekend there were 72 blocked shots as well, i.e. shots that did not reach the goal. I do not thin FM08 actually records this, but I am not sure.

So in summary, Premier League this weekend.

18.8 shots per game
8.3 shots on target per game
10.5 shots off target per game
7.2 shots blocked per game
3.4 goals per game.

This supports the proposition (I think) that 8.0.1 has about the right number of goals, just too many shots on target (in general) and therefore too many saved shots.

Law_Man
02-01-2008, 19:02
To compare the FM2008 figures in this thread to some FM2007 figures - just finished first season as Everton with patch 7.02, Andrew Johnson was averaging just over one goal for every three shots taken and Eddie Johnson was averaging close to one goal for every four shots taken.

achilles elbow
03-01-2008, 06:18
While not dismissing your analysis from a purely stats point of view, we ought to be a little kinder to SI.

I posted a while back querying why there appear to be match engine problems (such as the closing down issue) when they have had years to improve and perfect the match engine.

The reply was that every year we gradually perfect our tactics and exploit AI flaws to beat the AI teams, and so SI have to repeatedly tinker with the match engine in order to counter this.

So, while we would like the engine to be perfected, and then to remain untouched, it's apparently not possible. Therefore if we look deep enough we will always find statistical issues like the one mentioned here.

At least this thread is an intelligent discussion though, rather than reels of flaming critisism of a "broken" game, however it seems that for years to come we will always find bits of the match engine that are not a 100% replication of real life football.

GAVIN42
03-01-2008, 08:51
correct me if I'm wrong but does this not explain in part the debate on super keepers...

They are only "super" because you are creating too many chances for it to be realistic and therefore the keepers aren't realistic...

Basically nothing about football manager is "realistic" but it all balances out to make it roughly the same as real life in terms of scoreline...

as i said correct me cause i'm probably wrong

andygregory
03-01-2008, 10:30
absolutely great work oldsoldier. Hopefully SI take a peek at this thread and tweak the match engine to bring the stats into line with real life stats.

THEN IT'S GAME ON!!!!!!!!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

NickG
03-01-2008, 12:20
I have a half-baked theory, knowing nothing about the actual match engine, about why that is. Does anybody keep real-life stats on passes and/or crosses completed, compared to FM? I suspect that it's too easy to play a direct style, and too hard to keep possession in FM. If the real-life passing stats are higher, that would seem to bear this out.

PaulC
03-01-2008, 12:22
Excellent work oldsoldier.

This is pretty much the info we have based our work for 8.0.2 on, with help from the FML beta community along the way.

Hopefully when 8.0.2 comes out ( no date set its still work in progress ) you should be able to make similar tests and see results a bit closer to real life, although I would be foolish to claim we will ever get perfect data from what is essentially a simulation.

Cheers,
Paul

andygregory
03-01-2008, 13:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
Excellent work oldsoldier.

This is pretty much the info we have based our work for 8.0.2 on, with help from the FML beta community along the way.

Hopefully when 8.0.2 comes out ( no date set its still work in progress ) you should be able to make similar tests and see results a bit closer to real life, although I would be foolish to claim we will ever get perfect data from what is essentially a simulation.

Cheers,
Paul </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul I think you should offer oldsoldier a job http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

oldsoldier reincarnated
04-01-2008, 04:28
Many thanks to all of you for your kind comments. I did this analysis more as a way for me to understand what was happening with the match engine than to have a go at SI.

Sorry, I have always liked playing with figures, the numbers never lie, just the statitistics you make up with them http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Once I found that I had a possible plausible explanation I decided to share it on the Forum to maybe help some of the "angry" people out there if possible.

As Achilles Elbow said, the overall results produced by the match engine are reasonably accurate, it is just the way it gets there that needs some tweaking. Unfortunately for SI, we can all see the flaws in the process (too many 1 on 1s, too many GK MoM, too accurate shooting) and complain about theses issues and rather take our eye off the fact that at the end of all this, FM08 is fairly realistic.

PaulC, I would obviously be honoured to be involved as beta tester (pretty please http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif)

ZoL!
04-01-2008, 06:27
Cheers oldsoldier reincarnated http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

These data are very much essential to show people that the game is not that bad, after all..

Can I please post your findings on another site? The credit will be given to you of course

sav112
04-01-2008, 06:40
Thing is the game seems to react differently in my view and experience playing online in our Clan when the Ai Team is playing a Human player. Goalkeepers that have just let in 3 goals last game 2 goal the time before and in total have conceded say 13 goals in the first 7 matches all of a sudden become world class for human games, then go back to being average if not below after when its back to Ai V Ai.

Granted Goalkeepers can have an inspired game every so often but its always Ai V Human. I tend to scout the teams two game sin advance to playing them but other in the clan I’m sure are right behind me on this.

oldsoldier reincarnated
04-01-2008, 09:57
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ZoL!:
Cheers oldsoldier reincarnated http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

These data are very much essential to show people that the game is not that bad, after all..

Can I please post your findings on another site? The credit will be given to you of course </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi ZoL!

Please feel free to post where you want, thanks for asking.

Which site are they going on, purely as a matter of interest ?

emgergo
04-01-2008, 16:20
Rare sight in GQ http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

A really good thread http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks for gathering this all together, oldsoldier reincarnated, it was really interesting. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

allah
04-01-2008, 16:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
Excellent work oldsoldier.

This is pretty much the info we have based our work for 8.0.2 on, with help from the FML beta community along the way.

Hopefully when 8.0.2 comes out ( no date set its still work in progress ) you should be able to make similar tests and see results a bit closer to real life, although I would be foolish to claim we will ever get perfect data from what is essentially a simulation.

Cheers,
Paul </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thankyou for the post paulc, the occasional reply from you guys helps to bring down the frustration level to the consumer considerably. when there is a reply it lets us know you are aware of what we percieve the problems to be.

(it would be nice to recieve a reply in the "critique of the transfer system thread"!)

my simple observation to add is that after installing the patch quick pacy strikers -eg anelka & bojan who previously thrived on the numerous one on one chances they created, floundered teribly. this was extremely frustrating, there was nothing wrong with my tactics or team as millions of chances were taken without benefit. post patch i was still successful and in fact achieved an undefeated league season, but there were far fewer attractive goals and the frustration at the number of chances squandered by my world class players meant that i no longer enjoyed the game.
in the last few seasons i have resorted to employing more phhysical front men, and i feel that i am converting more chances again.
i would urge you to test the patch thoroughly before release and ensure that it is possible to get world class pacy strikers in a world class team to score a "world class" amount of goals!!

peace be upon you

ZoL!
09-02-2008, 09:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oldsoldier reincarnated:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ZoL!:
Cheers oldsoldier reincarnated http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

These data are very much essential to show people that the game is not that bad, after all..

Can I please post your findings on another site? The credit will be given to you of course </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi ZoL!

Please feel free to post where you want, thanks for asking.

Which site are they going on, purely as a matter of interest ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, but I totally forget about this :| It is F-P mate, and I am posting theme up right now (y)

Arnoldzhu
09-02-2008, 11:39
All in all, it's not an easy job to make the match engine play the match looks real as well as providing the data close to real life. Lots of tunes and tweaks! Hope everything will just be better.

Mitja
09-02-2008, 12:10
exellant work oldsoldier reincarnated.

basocly, these are the facts:

- too many chances created in the 1st place

- shooting is too accurate

- keepers a little too good

I said this many times with no or no mentioning worth reply. I think 1 reason for this is also that the ball is too slow ;

- too many chances created in the 1st place

passing wouldn't be so accurate. killer balls not as deadly as they are now.

EXAMPLES OF BALL BEING TOO SLOW

- most obvous and anoying one; players constantly wait for the ball to get to them.

- it takes years from GK's goal kick to falling to the ground. same for long passes. players are waiting (far too often) instead od moving to get to it. but crosses are somehow much faster?!?

- IRE; key passes played around the box, those are not passes, they are more like shots to foot. that's how quick those passes are. very hard to handle and control. don't see any of that in FM.

- killer balls. "don't happen a lot IRE", or at least not as deadly as in FM;-&gt; happen all the time, due to attacking player being able to run as fast as ball?!? ---&gt;

&lt;- players ability to run as fast as ball; happens all the time in FM. that just isn't the case IRE, that's why teams are passing, becouse it's MUCH quicker then simply runing with ball.

- too good ball control becouse of the ball being too slow.--&gt;

&lt;- players don't have many problems with passing and controling, when under pressure (cloing down), due to ball being controled too easy. -&gt; the basic idea of closing down should be that opponents loose their posession, via clearances, bad passes/ control, or interceptions.



I'm sure there are some more examples, but these are the most obvious.

sirdez24
09-02-2008, 17:52
Defensive anticipation is a huge problem too, resulting in a high number of trough balls as defenders seem to wait until the ball and attacker is past them before setting off after them, rather than looking to move across and cut balls out. This results in a lot of defensive clearances putting attacking players through as well, as defenders don't anticipate them.

Mitja
10-02-2008, 05:31
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sirdez24:
Defensive anticipation is a huge problem too, resulting in a high number of trough balls as defenders seem to wait until the ball and attacker is past them before setting off after them, rather than looking to move across and cut balls out. This results in a lot of defensive clearances putting attacking players through as well, as defenders don't anticipate them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

that's true. anticipation/decision realy lack qulity here. have you guys see how late player attacks his marker when closing down. he waits the ball to come to his opponent, until he decides to attack him, instead doing that while the ball is comming...

Norville Rodgers
10-02-2008, 05:41
I think the percentage of shots on target is about right, theres just too many shots to begin with. Lowering the sheer number of chances would make for a more realistic, rounded gaming experience.

borivoje213
13-02-2008, 16:12
I dunno about it being more rounded, right now a lot of people playing the game find it F-ing SQUARE lol.

Are they saying now that the human control teams are given far too many chances resulting in the gaming making them miss loads of them?

half my games result in me having 8 or so shots on target to their 2/3 and it ending in a draw. in a nutshell, i draw a majority of the games i deserve to win, and lose a majority of the games that are statistically evenly matched.

if they half the number of chances so that these games average me getting 4 on target to their 2/3 and they continue to get a better percentage of finishes i am going to totally flip out, break my FM08 cd, smash up my computer and sign myself in to the nearest mental institution.

I have a feeling that me and sav112 will be room mates.

polegategavin
14-02-2008, 02:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by borivoje213:
I dunno about it being more rounded, right now a lot of people playing the game find it F-ing SQUARE lol.

Are they saying now that the human control teams are given far too many chances resulting in the gaming making them miss loads of them?

half my games result in me having 8 or so shots on target to their 2/3 and it ending in a draw. in a nutshell, i draw a majority of the games i deserve to win, and lose a majority of the games that are statistically evenly matched.

if they half the number of chances so that these games average me getting 4 on target to their 2/3 and they continue to get a better percentage of finishes i am going to totally flip out, break my FM08 cd, smash up my computer and sign myself in to the nearest mental institution.

I have a feeling that me and sav112 will be room mates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

polegategavin
14-02-2008, 02:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by polegategavin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by borivoje213:
I dunno about it being more rounded, right now a lot of people playing the game find it F-ing SQUARE lol.

Are they saying now that the human control teams are given far too many chances resulting in the gaming making them miss loads of them?

half my games result in me having 8 or so shots on target to their 2/3 and it ending in a draw. in a nutshell, i draw a majority of the games i deserve to win, and lose a majority of the games that are statistically evenly matched.

if they half the number of chances so that these games average me getting 4 on target to their 2/3 and they continue to get a better percentage of finishes i am going to totally flip out, break my FM08 cd, smash up my computer and sign myself in to the nearest mental institution.

I have a feeling that me and sav112 will be room mates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, this should have had my comments too. If the shots on target from both teams is reduced then the likelyhood of goals is also reduced, obviously.

It will then be down to the human player to adjust there tactics to ensure that the chances they create result in goals, and this can be done now. But once the patch is released, reading the comments from SI staff they are looking to reduce the shots but change the effectiveness of the chances, i.e. a more realistic one-on-one ratio, which does not mean every chance scored mind!!

The difference once the patch is released IMHO will be that there will be no excuses for getting beat, yes the AI teams will have the same or fewer chances and win games, but this will purely mean that their tactics create clearer chances.

I have played games recently where the AI has had twice as many shots on target as me and I have won the match, in some cases comfortably.

But at least post patch 8.0.2 people will know it is the tactics and not any kind of bug/ match engine inaccuracy...