FM match engine = BLATANTLY pre-determined

Having played this game so much I can reveal the following conclusions:

1) end of match ratings are rigged to 'even things up', eg. the player's GK can save 2 shots and get a 8, whereas the computer's GK will save 10 shots and get a 7. This happens all the time to hide the fact that AI of the GK's is ridiculously warped.

2) You can play the best team in the world and still lose to the most mediocre team, just because of this 'evening up' factor in the match engine - also what you do during the game/team talks etc have no effect in the actual match engine itself.

3) Attributes play little to no part in the actual results. What the actual parameters for victory are remain hidden, though I have a feeling its linked to the season in its full length, eg. if you're striker scored loads of goals at the start of the season, he will have a mysterious 'dry patch' in the 2nd half of thes season to again 'even things up' for the AI.

4) Last minute goals are another thing, I think having played the game extensively that a team with a bigger reputation is far more likely to score late goals that affect match outcomes, than a team that has a lesser reputation but has players in ability that dwarf's the opposition.

5) And finally the tactics, they have little affect on the game if any. The most frustrating this (and a lot of this game is frustratingly pre-determined) is that the people who release the game place so much emphasis on the 'mental' side of the game, 'think like a manager' etc, and all the bull you read in the manual with the elaborate wording etc, which really is all a big fat marketing smokescreen for the willing public to buy into when really the dynamics of the game are very basic, clearly pre-determined and ultimately a waste of your valuable time.

Thank you, and have a very merry christmas.

Ps. If this thread gets deleted why do you think that is?

Having played this game so much I can reveal the following conclusions:

1) end of match ratings are rigged to 'even things up', eg. the player's GK can save 2 shots and get a 8, whereas the computer's GK will save 10 shots and get a 7. This happens all the time to hide the fact that AI of the GK's is ridiculously warped.

2) You can play the best team in the world and still lose to the most mediocre team, just because of this 'evening up' factor in the match engine - also what you do during the game/team talks etc have no effect in the actual match engine itself.

3) Attributes play little to no part in the actual results. What the actual parameters for victory are remain hidden, though I have a feeling its linked to the season in its full length, eg. if you're striker scored loads of goals at the start of the season, he will have a mysterious 'dry patch' in the 2nd half of thes season to again 'even things up' for the AI.

4) Last minute goals are another thing, I think having played the game extensively that a team with a bigger reputation is far more likely to score late goals that affect match outcomes, than a team that has a lesser reputation but has players in ability that dwarf's the opposition.

5) And finally the tactics, they have little affect on the game if any. The most frustrating this (and a lot of this game is frustratingly pre-determined) is that the people who release the game place so much emphasis on the 'mental' side of the game, 'think like a manager' etc, and all the bull you read in the manual with the elaborate wording etc, which really is all a big fat marketing smokescreen for the willing public to buy into when really the dynamics of the game are very basic, clearly pre-determined and ultimately a waste of your valuable time.

Thank you, and have a very merry christmas.

Ps. If this thread gets deleted why do you think that is?

I agree my keeper saved 1 shot and let in 5 one of which from the other side of the half way line from another keepers clearance (it was windy) the other keeper not only scored that one but saved 6-7 and only let one in my keeper got an 8 theirs a 5.

And I agree with the tactics thing set your team to go defensive with 5 minutes to go and watch as they all push up for the very next attack with all of your players in their box only to watch as it gets cleared and they start a counter attack with none of your players except your keeper (and even then not always) in your half what is defensive about that?

5 is complete balls. Download a tactic from the T&T forum that is proven to work and compare to a default one from the game and you will see a massive difference.

havent noticed 3 myself, these things happen in real life anyway.

2, check the thread by Wolfsong on teamtalks

4. havent noticed anything like this, i've played teams better and worse than me and late goals happne for me and them

i wouldn't say player ratings are rigged, but they're certainly not a very good indication of how well a player has played

How can it be rigged???

I mean the game can't anticipate the changes we make during the game.

Rigged, eh?

So it wouldn't matter if i started with a goal keeper and then 5 mins in put Kris Boyd in goals, moved all my defenders up the park?

And once again.. a thread full of evidence to back all this conspiracy theory up.

This thread = BLATANTLY full of unfounded paranoia

sorry couldnt resist

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ps. If this thread gets deleted why do you think that is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm just guessing here, but I'd assumed it'll have something to do with the thread becoming an all-out flame-fest over some stupid rubbish that has nothing to do with the original, rehashed, conspiracy theory.

Its funny isn't it. People like 'or_become_a' come on the forums and rant about the game but I bet he will be playing the game for most of tonight. No game is perfect and fm is still miles ahead of other manager sims.

i was given this game on a grassy knoll ,by lord lucan who rode off on the loch ness monster

Disagree with the OP, as I believe Paul C when he says this is not true- but theres no question that at times it certainly feels as if there is an artificial limiting system in place to keep scores within realistic levels.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ajw2255:

5 is complete balls. Download a tactic from the T&T forum that is proven to work and compare to a default one from the game and you will see a massive difference.

havent noticed 3 myself, these things happen in real life anyway.

2, check the thread by Wolfsong on teamtalks

4. havent noticed anything like this, i've played teams better and worse than me and late goals happne for me and them </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your point is to have fun with the game, we have to go on the internet and search up threads?

They just need to fix the damn game so it works properly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CowRonaldo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ajw2255:

5 is complete balls. Download a tactic from the T&T forum that is proven to work and compare to a default one from the game and you will see a massive difference.

havent noticed 3 myself, these things happen in real life anyway.

2, check the thread by Wolfsong on teamtalks

4. havent noticed anything like this, i've played teams better and worse than me and late goals happne for me and them </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So your point is to have fun with the game, we have to go on the internet and search up threads?

They just need to fix the damn game so it works properly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

he claimed team talks make no difference which is incorrect, find the thread i mentioned and it will show the effects of teamtalks under different conditions.

as for the tactics, they do make a difference, and yes the game should be easier to interpret what makes a good tactic rather than the hit and miss that it is now. But they do make a difference to outcomes, which the op claimed didnt.

The game is "rigged" but the result is not pre determined.

If it was not "rigged" Man U with a CA of say 2000 would win all games and the PL.

The "rigging" should appear realistic and provide the Giant killing or late goals aspect of game.

IMO the "rigging" in FM08 is not as realistic as it should be, and 424 should be banned.

Team talks - played 1/4 PL season with no team talks - Morale superb - most reaction is to high bonus.

Also played Robbie Keane as GK and Robinson as striker - try it yourself!

Teamtalks

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/1172031963

1. All cats have four legs.

2. my dog has four legs.

3. Therefore, my dog is a cat.

4. The above has been rigged and is pre-determined.

QED.

In my eyes, the answer to our problems lies neither with the believers in a pre-determined game, nor with the believers in a "tactics fix everything" mantra. In fact, I'm beginning to believe that the harsh division on this website is detrimental to anybody's enjoyment of the game. Both sides need to have the balls to step into the other's shoes and try and understand the argument from an unbiased point of view. Posts like giblet_of_fire's and psychocandy's contribute nothing and ought to be dealt with more harshly by the admin and moderators here. Instead of posting a smart-ass comment, at least try and understand the situation at hand: the OP has posted some clear reasons on why he believes this game is rigged. It's actually very simple to offer constructive feedback consisting of a response which is consisting of a clear and though-out counter-argument/agreement.

I'm not fully inclined to side with either team here, but the one piece of advice I have to add is this: FM 2008 is a video-game and should be treated as such. It is a wonderful attempt at simulating a complicated game. The progress that has been made year to year has not always been extraordinary, but nor has it been damaging to the series. Every year is a new year, and with the coming of FM09 next year, we all have reason to hope. In the mean time, lets all band together, dispose of the division that has come between fellow gamers, and vow to find a solution to our problems.

right...(or_become_a) tactics do make a visible difference if you watch the game,although i accept it's not flawless. if you pick say peter crouch as a target man and aim crosses to him, you can see this happens in the engine,focus passing, again it goes generally where you want it to. and last minute goals do in reality tend to go to the better side,look at today newcastle and man u both scored late on against inferior sides.

secondly (carlos 1879)i highly doubt that your goalkeeper conceeded 5 goals and got a rating of 8 as you claim, and the defensive thing- individual player settings overule team settings, for example if you have your full backs set to attacking or "forward" for corners they will still do this irrespective of what you tell the team to do as a whole.

and finally (knap) i just played marcus bent in goal against blackburn, i lost 8-1 at home(good job i saved it first), so that one's ******** too.

thing that annoys me is going to places like stamford bridge/old trafford and knowing you've lost before you start, but i'm afraid that's just the nature of football these days

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ps. If this thread gets deleted why do you think that is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not deleted yet. Why do you think that is?

I can certainly identify with many of the feelings expressed in the original post. Whether or not it is a correct assessment is another matter. FM is extremely non-transparent. But staying with the impossible-to-prove conspiracy theories, I'd like to make an addition to the original five:

6) Team selection is a hoax. Field your strongest 11 and get spanked. Reload and exchange your first team goalie with that 18-year-old pimply-faced, severely-lacking-match-practice, semi-talented one from the youth squad and win the game comfortably using the exact same tactics. Shocking!

Merry Christmas fanboys and moaners!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Attributes play little to no part in the actual results. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also played Robbie Keane as GK and Robinson as striker - try it yourself!

the result is not pre determined.

Tactics try all player sliders to left Team defensive and low cf

1. All cats have four legs.

2. my dog has four legs.

3. Therefore, my dog is a cat.

4. The above has been rigged and is pre-determined.

QED.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

lol

and i completely disagree with this post

i somehow have a sneaky feeling the ai are out to get me though...

i'm on a poor slump, 2 draws and a loss, against southampton, riding 3 losses in a row...

they go 1-0 up, halftime 1-0

i equalise shortly after 1-1. they just wont give up and get 2-1. i equalise 2-2. then my defence decides to go walkabout and concede a 3rd goal 3-2. i am obviously banging the keyboard right now...

then i hit the wrong spot and the whole game suddenly froze. i had to restart it. How lucky

now i know what to do when results dont go your way...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glyn:

1. All cats have four legs.

2. my dog has four legs.

3. Therefore, my dog is a cat.

4. The above has been rigged and is pre-determined.

QED. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thinly veiled "I've got a new dog" post

One thing I can think could be changed is that the AI, because it understands the tactical options better than us; always seems to be able to take advantage of every mistake we make.

This appears to be the case regardless of manager.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by or_become_a:

Having played this game so much I can reveal the following conclusions:

Perhaps you could provide us with the evidence that has led you to these conclusons.

1) end of match ratings are rigged to 'even things up', eg. the player's GK can save 2 shots and get a 8, whereas the computer's GK will save 10 shots and get a 7. This happens all the time to hide the fact that AI of the GK's is ridiculously warped.

I would put it to you that although there is an issue with match ratings, (and in particular with GK match ratings), you have made an incorrect assumption that these poor match ratings indicate that match ratings are "rigged" and that the AI of opposition GK's is "ridiculously warped".

2) You can play the best team in the world and still lose to the most mediocre team, just because of this 'evening up' factor in the match engine - also what you do during the game/team talks etc have no effect in the actual match engine itself.

I think it has been proved beyond a shadow of a dount that team-talks play too important a role in how your team performs rather than a not important enough role.

3) Attributes play little to no part in the actual results. What the actual parameters for victory are remain hidden, though I have a feeling its linked to the season in its full length, eg. if you're striker scored loads of goals at the start of the season, he will have a mysterious 'dry patch' in the 2nd half of thes season to again 'even things up' for the AI.

I would love you to post some evidence to back this up because it is simply not true.

4) Last minute goals are another thing, I think having played the game extensively that a team with a bigger reputation is far more likely to score late goals that affect match outcomes, than a team that has a lesser reputation but has players in ability that dwarf's the opposition.

I think the example you describe above is probably far more common in real life too. Isn't this what we want te game to try and replicate?

5) And finally the tactics, they have little affect on the game if any. The most frustrating this (and a lot of this game is frustratingly pre-determined) is that the people who release the game place so much emphasis on the 'mental' side of the game, 'think like a manager' etc, and all the bull you read in the manual with the elaborate wording etc, which really is all a big fat marketing smokescreen for the willing public to buy into when really the dynamics of the game are very basic, clearly pre-determined and ultimately a waste of your valuable time.

I think you have really wasted your time playing FM because you haven't picked up on any of the indicators that you get when things are going poorly well. You are so so mistaken.

Thank you, and have a very merry christmas.

Ps. If this thread gets deleted why do you think that is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with absolutely nothing that you have said here.

You make these wild accusations and back them up with absolutely not one shred of evidence or proof.

I've been really critical of FM08 in the past and I'm sure I will be again in the future, but when I post a negative comment I try and give reasons why I have come to the conclusion that I am posting, and I suppose at the same time I aslo ask if that is how others see the same evidence that I am presenting. Sometimes many people have been in agreement with me, but on a number of occasions, others have pointed things out to me that had completely passed me by.

There are a large number of big issues with the patched version of the game, but in my view, none of the points that you have made stand up under scrutiny.

Theres been A M-u-r-d-e-r

i really think this is pathetic complaining about losing games and accusing them of being rigged

Unless ur in the italian league then i will side with you

Lmfao @ you.

Just a couple of points to add.

A goalkeepers match performance is never judged just on the saves he makes, his distribution, command of area etc. are all taken into account.

The emotions expressed by the OP and countless others on these forums are the same emotions felt by real football fans at real football matches all around the world every day of the year.

So how bad is FM then? sitting in your own room with a glass of something nice you get to feel the same gut wrenching pain when the oppo scores in the 94th minute, or the face cracking joy when your nobody of an 18 year old does similar to win you the FA cup.

Railroad Tycoon never did that for me

well in an online game, we were losing 3-1 with 5 minutes to go and drew 3-3, i wasnt even watching the match i was talking on the FMO chat room.

i didnt touch the formation so we were still playing the same side and formation that got us 3-1 down, so the play defensive at the end is bullcrap

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Glyn:

1. All cats have four legs.

2. my dog has four legs.

3. Therefore, my dog is a cat.

4. The above has been rigged and is pre-determined.

QED. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My dog only has three legs

but all the tripods in science class had three legs

and we put bunsen burners underneath them

does this mean I should..... Hang on one sec

I Burnt my dog

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by or_become_a:

Ps. If this thread gets deleted why do you think that is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this thread doesn't get deleted, why do you think that is?

I must say I personally feel that FM 2008 is by far the game in the series that I have had most success in by tweaking my tactics. After a bit of a slow start my 4-1-2-2-1 tactick has started to work wonders and I'm currently undefeated (1 draw, 8 wins) in the Adeccoligaen in Norway with Byåsen, playing with more or less the same players I failed to gain promotion with the first season in Norwegian Second Division + some players on loan from the Rosenborg U19 Team.

What I did was basicly decide what tacs I wanted to play based on the original staff of the club. Got in some good trainers. Got players that actually did do the job.

I got no funds at Byåsen. The board refused to let me pay anythhing more than £250 a week in salaries, and only £3k all together (350/4k now). Just about no players want to play for me. If I try to sign the same player as anyone else, either on loan or on free transfer I will not get him. I had to work for over a year to get all of my players into full time contracts. On top of all this, when my tactic started working after the first half season and I go on to win the Second Division in the second season, the board makes a £4 million stadium expansion basicly crippeling my financial gain of getting promoted for all the season making me unable to buy even those few willing to play for me (and in the process, telling me to sort out the financial problems...).

Now, I still haven't lost a game in the Adeccoliga. And belive you me; there is a huge jump player wise from Norwegian Second Division to Adeccoligaen.

So basicly. The game works quite fine in my humble opinion. Sure I have had a few matches when I had 100s of shots on goal and the keeper just won't let anyone past (to be honest, most of my shots doesn't hit the target - those who do often go in), but they aren't very common and they usually doesn't last if I make tactical changes in the half time and tell my boys to stop shooting like blind cows (half time talks).

hahaha! i love these comdey thread

Another classic thread.

Why do people think the game is "rigged"?? It's a game! You change inputs, the game calculates an outcome based on your input and random events.

And please stop drawing conclusions from a couple of matches. If you are interested in the subject, visit the Challenges forum where lots of "experiments" have been done in various areas of the game, under relatively controlled conditions and repeatedly.

its not rigged but its poor - i beat juventus 3-0 away with ac milan then i fail to beat genoa away or some poor team at home? It is a poor attempt of a game

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">2) You can play the best team in the world and still lose to the most mediocre team, just because of this 'evening up' factor in the match engine - also what you do during the game/team talks etc have no effect in the actual match engine itself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Thats crap mate. I was 3-0 up at half time with Barcelona against Sevilla. I told everyone at half time i was delighted and we got beat 4-3. In a cup final, i was 2-0 up at half time and cruising.....i told everyone at half time, we have 1 hand on the cup and i got beat 4-2. the second half performances in both games were pathetic. Are you telling me that AI knew i was going to say those things before the game? I don't think so sunshine!!!!

I really do sympathize with the OP here, as I'm sure many people understand his frustrations.

But he really should have thought this through before coming on here and giving off.

A regular point made is the lack of evidence provided for such accusations of "Rigging/Cheating".

You can't just write a post lambasting the game for all the things listed in the OP, without at least having a few screen shots and more detailed explanations as to why you think (or know!) these things happen.

Or as you've found out, you'll get flamed to death and a hat full of sarcastic comments.

The simple fact that your OP is so shoddily thrown together, probably in a moment of blind rage after you more than likely lost a cup final or title decider, means you'll never get a decent discussion, and you'll get virtually no support.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by or_become_a:

Having played this game so much I can reveal the following conclusions:

1) end of match ratings are rigged to 'even things up', eg. the player's GK can save 2 shots and get a 8, whereas the computer's GK will save 10 shots and get a 7. This happens all the time to hide the fact that AI of the GK's is ridiculously warped.

2) You can play the best team in the world and still lose to the most mediocre team, just because of this 'evening up' factor in the match engine - also what you do during the game/team talks etc have no effect in the actual match engine itself.

3) Attributes play little to no part in the actual results. What the actual parameters for victory are remain hidden, though I have a feeling its linked to the season in its full length, eg. if you're striker scored loads of goals at the start of the season, he will have a mysterious 'dry patch' in the 2nd half of thes season to again 'even things up' for the AI.

4) Last minute goals are another thing, I think having played the game extensively that a team with a bigger reputation is far more likely to score late goals that affect match outcomes, than a team that has a lesser reputation but has players in ability that dwarf's the opposition.

5) And finally the tactics, they have little affect on the game if any. The most frustrating this (and a lot of this game is frustratingly pre-determined) is that the people who release the game place so much emphasis on the 'mental' side of the game, 'think like a manager' etc, and all the bull you read in the manual with the elaborate wording etc, which really is all a big fat marketing smokescreen for the willing public to buy into when really the dynamics of the game are very basic, clearly pre-determined and ultimately a waste of your valuable time.

Thank you, and have a very merry christmas.

Ps. If this thread gets deleted why do you think that is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever thought you may just be rubbish at the game?

Those points are hilarious. They're so far off the truth it's truly special.

I'm in no position to agree or disagree but I have played for a couple of season. In the world league, I expect the teams to be tough, but not so tough that the AI manage to make a remarkable comeback from 3-0 down to a 3-4 victory for them.

Im using liverpool and I was up against lyon 3-0 at half time. DId a few minor tweaks. And i'm no rubbish in the game, just that I find it too hard to believe that AI can stage a comeback almost every matches.

MAN! Did u just make that up! What sort of conclusions r those 4 such a great game. U have put forward your points but have failed to pay attention to detail, example: A keeper may make 10 saves and get a rating of 7 and his opposite number may make 2 saves and get an 8. It could all depend on how good those saves were (Those 10 saves could have been easy shots with lie power/accuracy and the 2 saves made by the other GK could have been great reaction saves from close range placed towards the corner of the net!!!!!)

About conceding late goals, i was Notts County and scored a last minute winner against the far superior FOREST, and dont tell me county r a bigger team than the mighty reds!

Team talks, tactics etc do have an effect otherwise they would not b put on the game! If ur thinking of fifa 08 u may b right but fm, no.

If i playd 10 upfront i wud get thrashed, if i had 7 defenders i may not concede, but i wouldn,t score many! so ont say formations dont matter.

I hope u have all enjoyed my essay, but that guy doesn't have a clue what he is on about! FM is not the best football sim in the world for no reason!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:

I really do sympathize with the OP here, as I'm sure many people understand his frustrations.

But he really should have thought this through before coming on here and giving off.

A regular point made is the lack of evidence provided for such accusations of "Rigging/Cheating".

You can't just write a post lambasting the game for all the things listed in the OP, without at least having a few screen shots and more detailed explanations as to why you think (or know!) these things happen.

Or as you've found out, you'll get flamed to death and a hat full of sarcastic comments.

The simple fact that your OP is so shoddily thrown together, probably in a moment of blind rage after you more than likely lost a cup final or title decider, means you'll never get a decent discussion, and you'll get virtually no support. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See?....

It does make you think when your tactics are undone by a 35 yard goal that goes straight through your 'keeper or a single piece of idiocy from a defender who can't be bothered moving to a ball a yard away.

I think he has been at a big club, and got sacked for under performing. After many draws with midtable sides.

Oh yeah. That's what it is. They've rigged the game so you can't possibly win.

SI are a bunch of evil geniuses in a secret Island lair working on a most diabolical of games to prevent you winning.

They hate it when people actually win at games. So they dedicate their entire lives to frustrating you .

It makes perfect sense to spend millions making a game that has no objective and is basically pointless in every way.

I completely agree with you. Honestly.

i agree with some of this

when i win a game, but very soon after the game crashes I replay the game until it is the same score as the original game....very often the results might be

1-1 (in real game, followed by)

0-1

0-1

0-1

which makes you think maybe one team for whatever reason cant win a certain game, although it can be said that the teams tactics may just be a perfect foyle, so i am undecieded on the matter

HOWEVER, when a cup draw takes place at during an event, like above where the game has to be replayed, I always (80percent of the time i would guess) get the same people

especially in the early rounds of a domestic cup comp.

Comedy thread like this one are brilliant