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View Full Version : Patch 8.0.1. Shots to Goal Ratio not fixed - SHOCKING!! SI Please answer - believe to be related to Closing down and Long shots bug



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Fred_the_Red
22-11-2007, 15:20
I thought the 8.0.1 patch would fix the closing down and long shots bug by now. But no it hasn't. Long shots seems to have been toned down a little, closing down seems to sometimes work sometimes doesn't.

Before the 8.0.1 patch
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5211026...342078263#9342078263 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/9342078263?r=9342078263#9342078263)

I had poor shots to goals ration

After the patch

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3343/asadadadqs4.jpg

Still the same! Nothing has changed.

Basically this closing down and long shot bug is what is causing everyone to have 20 shots on goal but only resulting in 1 or 2 goals scored. Fair enough only 2% of the shots go in. But if the opposition win as a result of 3 - 4 shots where you had 20 thats unfair and unrealistic.


There is a game in there where Ipswich had 5 shots but NO/NOTHING/ZERO shots had hit the target AND THEY STILL SCORED!?!??! That game cost me 2 points.

Since the patch I lost in the champions league, FA cup final and my run of form in the league.

There are a load of people complaing about the number of shots per goals since the installing the patch. So its not just me

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/6542031363
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/2542009263/p/7
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/7192061363

This thread documents some problems.
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/6682090363

I believe the long shot and closing bug has not been toned down enough or at all. This is why players are shooting outside of box when told not to and missiing targets therefore resulting in 20 shots on goal.

And before you tell me to upload my games to the bugs forum I HAVE SINCE OCTOBER

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...062040953#9062040953 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/4882029553?r=9062040953#9062040953)

Fred_the_Red
22-11-2007, 15:20
I thought the 8.0.1 patch would fix the closing down and long shots bug by now. But no it hasn't. Long shots seems to have been toned down a little, closing down seems to sometimes work sometimes doesn't.

Before the 8.0.1 patch
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5211026...342078263#9342078263 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/9342078263?r=9342078263#9342078263)

I had poor shots to goals ration

After the patch

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3343/asadadadqs4.jpg

Still the same! Nothing has changed.

Basically this closing down and long shot bug is what is causing everyone to have 20 shots on goal but only resulting in 1 or 2 goals scored. Fair enough only 2% of the shots go in. But if the opposition win as a result of 3 - 4 shots where you had 20 thats unfair and unrealistic.


There is a game in there where Ipswich had 5 shots but NO/NOTHING/ZERO shots had hit the target AND THEY STILL SCORED!?!??! That game cost me 2 points.

Since the patch I lost in the champions league, FA cup final and my run of form in the league.

There are a load of people complaing about the number of shots per goals since the installing the patch. So its not just me

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/6542031363
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/2542009263/p/7
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/7192061363

This thread documents some problems.
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/6682090363

I believe the long shot and closing bug has not been toned down enough or at all. This is why players are shooting outside of box when told not to and missiing targets therefore resulting in 20 shots on goal.

And before you tell me to upload my games to the bugs forum I HAVE SINCE OCTOBER

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...062040953#9062040953 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/4882029553?r=9062040953#9062040953)

Hairy Coo
22-11-2007, 15:23
Its a game http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

RoyalHankey
22-11-2007, 15:24
try playing a new game maybe the patch not work on demo game or beta patch game

NickBlues
22-11-2007, 15:26
fix your tactics http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fred_the_Red
22-11-2007, 15:26
Its £24.99 of my hard earn money that Ive payed and not been able to play since I first purchased it (October). Waited and waited for weeks and weeks for a decent patch to fix things. But still unable to play.

Now I have to wait till 2008 for the 8.0.2 patch http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fred_the_Red
22-11-2007, 15:28
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NickBlues:
fix your tactics http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should I fix a working tactic that creates 30 shots on goal???

NickBlues
22-11-2007, 15:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NickBlues:
fix your tactics http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should I fix a working tactic that creates 30 shots on goal??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


did you score 30 goals?

Ackter
22-11-2007, 15:30
Some stats using my 433 team, with Dean Ashton up front on his own:

Matches: 28
Shots: 366
On Target: 211
% of shots on Target: 58

(I don't have individual player stats from just those 28 games, so I have to go with the last 40):
Dean Ashton has scored 33 goals in 40 games from 153 shots - 97 of those shots were on target (coming in at 63% of total shots were on target).

That's a 34% success rate - ie he scores with one of every three shots on target.

Fred_the_Red
22-11-2007, 15:31
No but I expect after creating 30 chances that my players consisting of Rooney, Pato, Podolski, Fernandez and Anderson would at least put away 2 of those chances and win teams that create 4 chances.

Fred_the_Red
22-11-2007, 15:34
Another thread on the matter.

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/2842021363

carlos1879
22-11-2007, 15:35
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NickBlues:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NickBlues:
fix your tactics http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should I fix a working tactic that creates 30 shots on goal??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do they always say its someone else's fault never the game's fair enough being a fan but being blinded to the problems is ridiculus just becaue it doesn't affect you doesn't mean its not real not all of these shots will be long shots some are absolute sitters and theres no tactic that can stop good players from suddenly losing all sense of direction when only 2yards from goal I wish there was a "shoot accurate" setting but unfortunatly their isnt just players like Henry and Rooney missing absloute sitters day in day out and some opposing centre back with 1 finishing scoring a 40 yard volley with their only shot

did you score 30 goals? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

williamshankley
22-11-2007, 15:36
Surely the quality of chances has something to do with it?

Are you Gerard Houllier in disguise? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Well we had 26 shots today and didn't score any they had 4 great chances and scored 3 goals!

Got to be your tactics

carlos1879
22-11-2007, 15:37
well ive just proved I am as compotent as said strikers the bit below should be below the "did you score 30 goals?" crack

Why do they always say its someone else's fault never the game's fair enough being a fan but being blinded to the problems is ridiculus just becaue it doesn't affect you doesn't mean its not real not all of these shots will be long shots some are absolute sitters and theres no tactic that can stop good players from suddenly losing all sense of direction when only 2yards from goal I wish there was a "shoot accurate" setting but unfortunatly their isnt just players like Henry and Rooney missing absloute sitters day in day out and some opposing centre back with 1 finishing scoring a 40 yard volley with their only shot

and sorry for need to double post I am an incompotent perfectionist a terrible combo

carlos1879
22-11-2007, 15:39
Quality of chances a blind chicken could hit an open net from 6 yards with the keeper in the middle of no where but the worlds finest cant in this game

Ackter
22-11-2007, 15:39
Punctuation also doesn't effect you it seems.

Fred_the_Red
22-11-2007, 15:40
My forwards are far from crap so it cant be my players.
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2530/qweqeqeqeqeqeqewx1.jpg

My tactic works because I create 30 chances.

The game somehow stops me from scoring easy goals and preventing me winning matches I should have won.

It's not one offs. Its every game I play. My screen shots prove this
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3343/asadadadqs4.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6581/666666666iu7.jpg

Ackter
22-11-2007, 15:41
Fred, none of the threads you've linked to have any sort of statistical data backing up what they're saying. It's basically just rants based on losing matches.

If you can provide proper objective stats to back up your claims then please do so.

Hairy Coo
22-11-2007, 15:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
Another thread on the matter.

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/2842021363 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats a very poor example fwiw 5 shots on compared to 2 is hardly ridiculous

Ackter
22-11-2007, 15:42
Fred, creating 30 chances doesn't really mean that much as it's the quality of those chances that count.

Ritzy9
22-11-2007, 15:44
I just played Barnsley in the League cup as Newcastle. They raped me. They had 27 shots 13 on target. I had 13 shots 7 on target.

I won 2-3 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Get better players making the shots or change your tactics http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

SkidRo
22-11-2007, 15:45
everyones seems to complain about these problems but i find that they dont trouble me before patch and after patch still have a nice amoutn of shots on goal that would justify my win/draw/loss and i feel long have toned down even more since the patch now at least when i instruct not to they have followed the orders 90% perfectly

carlos1879
22-11-2007, 15:45
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
Punctuation also doesn't effect you it seems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn you lol as I recently said in a thread my keyboard is duff and the only punctuation I have is a full stop occasionally I should have mentioned it but forgot because I was busy mashing the keyboard trying in vain for a full stop sorry for the lack of punctuation its not my fault honest

And some chances I have seen squandered are rooney hitting it over the bar from 6 yards 3times in one game id classify that as a quality chance

Hairy Coo
22-11-2007, 15:45
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Get better players making the shots or change your tactics </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Now thats advice which covers all bases

PaulC
22-11-2007, 15:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Basically this closing down and long shot bug is what is causing everyone to have 20 shots on goal but only resulting in 1 or 2 goals scored </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont really understand how you come to that conclusion. Firstly the closing down bug is fixed, and secondly I am not aware of any proven "long shot bug" in any version of FM2008.

I cant comment further on your examples without viewing the actual matches.

However stats from a one season PL test I ran before it was released using patch code showed the following:

English Premier Division
---------------
Games played 380
Goals per match 2.39
Shots per match 23.32
Shots on target per match 12.31 (53%)

Cheers,
Paul

Ackter
22-11-2007, 15:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hairy Coo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Get better players making the shots or change your tactics </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Now thats advice which covers all bases </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this case the second part is almmost certainly correct.
Sure the creative part of his team is working well, but there's obviously a problem in the final third.

I'm going to guess that he's being too attacking, and too up-tempo.

Serpico
22-11-2007, 15:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
Fred, none of the threads you've linked to have any sort of statistical data backing up what they're saying. It's basically just rants based on losing matches.

If you can provide proper objective stats to back up your claims then please do so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no stats I'm afraid, but from where I'm sitting there has been a problem with the game creating way too many great chances for years now. This is the root of the problem imho.

And strikers do shoot too early when clear through on goal. Well mine do anyway.

nojanana
22-11-2007, 15:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and secondly I am not aware of any proven "long shot bug" in any version of FM2008. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh dear, even the ppl in charge are in denial now!!

Ackter
22-11-2007, 15:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">have no stats I'm afraid, but from where I'm sitting there has been a problem with the game creating way too many great chances for years now. This is the root of the problem imho.

And strikers do shoot too early when clear through on goal. Well mine do anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Both true, but neither are the reason for what's going on here. Both are certainly contributing, but his match stats suggest much more is going on. I believe it's tactical.

Sweed
22-11-2007, 15:54
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:


The game somehow stops me from scoring easy goals and preventing me winning matches I should have won.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, just wow. That's got to be the post of the year, too funny. If you are not winning it is something YOU are doing, it's not the game going out of it's way to cheat you. When I lose a match I may yell at my monitor or curse my bad luck but then I go back and try to figure out what I could have done better instead of blaming the coding of the game.

Ackter
22-11-2007, 15:54
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nojanana:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and secondly I am not aware of any proven "long shot bug" in any version of FM2008. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh dear, even the ppl in charge are in denial now!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Prove him wrong, then. There's a bugs forum and FTP available to you for this purpose.

carlos1879
22-11-2007, 15:59
There is a long shot bug or was they claim anyway there was loads of stuff about it on the bugs forum for beta2 they even admited it

nojanana
22-11-2007, 16:02
clint dempsey scoring a hatrick, all 3 goals from 25-30yards with long shots of 10, isnt a bug??

Ackter
22-11-2007, 16:04
No it's not. It's unlikely, but it's not a bug.

Serpico
22-11-2007, 16:07
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nojanana:
clint dempsey scoring a hatrick, all 3 goals from 25-30yards with long shots of 10, isnt a bug?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's coincidence.

Holding up one match and saying it proves a bug's existence or not is just daft.

chopo
22-11-2007, 16:08
The long shots thing might not be, but are we accepting that there is still a problem with shots?

I'm getting far too many every game.

buckfast
22-11-2007, 16:09
lol. Your name is "Cameron Kwong" what a stupid name

nojanana
22-11-2007, 16:12
that was just one game i could remember from 8.0.0......there were others but that one kind of stayed in my mind

kccircle
22-11-2007, 16:13
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
I thought the 8.0.1 patch would fix the closing down and long shots bug by now. But no it hasn't. Long shots seems to have been toned down a little, closing down seems to sometimes work sometimes doesn't.

Before the 8.0.1 patch
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5211026...342078263#9342078263 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/9342078263?r=9342078263#9342078263)

I had poor shots to goals ration

After the patch

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3343/asadadadqs4.jpg

Still the same! Nothing has changed.

Basically this closing down and long shot bug is what is causing everyone to have 20 shots on goal but only resulting in 1 or 2 goals scored. Fair enough only 2% of the shots go in. But if the opposition win as a result of 3 - 4 shots where you had 20 thats unfair and unrealistic.


There is a game in there where Ipswich had 5 shots but NO/NOTHING/ZERO shots had hit the target AND THEY STILL SCORED!?!??! That game cost me 2 points.

Since the patch I lost in the champions league, FA cup final and my run of form in the league.

There are a load of people complaing about the number of shots per goals since the installing the patch. So its not just me

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/6542031363
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/2542009263/p/7
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/7192061363

This thread documents some problems.
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/6682090363

I believe the long shot and closing bug has not been toned down enough or at all. This is why players are shooting outside of box when told not to and missiing targets therefore resulting in 20 shots on goal.

And before you tell me to upload my games to the bugs forum I HAVE SINCE OCTOBER

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...062040953#9062040953 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/4882029553?r=9062040953#9062040953) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fix the game LOL


fix my tactics
or
new patch - start new game
or
i'm not good at this game - blame SI
or
you cant win every game
or
i played same formation so I should win
or
I support ManYoo


(apologies for last comment)

SlayerX
22-11-2007, 16:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buckfast:
lol. Your name is "Cameron Kwong" what a stupid name </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was below-the-belt.

earmack
22-11-2007, 16:21
This occurance is not a bug per se, but it obviously is a problem for people, mayhap SI could make the game more intuitive? I have never had any player convert 1/3 chances in over 200 seasons total (across all FM releases)but of course my tactics are responsible for this. Also mayhap the more 'senior' posters could use their noggins and steer clear of these topics instead of saying (EVERY GODDAMN TIME) 'well I don't have any problems making Average Mcaveragepants score 50 goals from 52 chances' because its the wrong side of helpful and the right side of bragging.

This field intentionally left blank
22-11-2007, 16:22
I'm in way agreeing with the OP, but it might help if SI made available a tactic which would prove once and for all that tactical tweaks prevent this problem.

This field intentionally left blank
22-11-2007, 16:25
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">English Premier Division
---------------
Games played 380
Goals per match 2.39
Shots per match 23.32
Shots on target per match 12.31 (53%) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd be interested to see these stats broken down by player position.

earmack
22-11-2007, 16:27
Edit: sorry I had one player who scored from basically every chance he had but that was FM05 one of the most ludicrous games I've ever played(I loved it at the time but Jesus if I had to play that again I'd kill myself because it took surrealism to new limits, Exhibit A being said player single handedly taking apart every team in the world, Exhibit B being Liverpool winning the premiership for 17 season in a row until I won it and they promptly got relegated the next season).

Feltus
22-11-2007, 17:05
Agrees with Fred.

Almost every game I have like 3-4 times more shots than my opponent, and I aint winning, thats for sure..

Seem to have this problem only when im playing attacking football with quick tempo..

Anyone else who can confirm the same?

Feltus

Fred_the_Red
22-11-2007, 17:09
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
Fred, creating 30 chances doesn't really mean that much as it's the quality of those chances that count. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know but I have 3 or 4 sitters. I mean I create 20 chances per game on average. Lets say half of those were wasted long shots.

I still have 10 decent shots on goal. 3 or 4 of them are one on ones, 6 yards shots that players like Rooney, Pato, Podolski, Fernandez should score from.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Basically this closing down and long shot bug is what is causing everyone to have 20 shots on goal but only resulting in 1 or 2 goals scored </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont really understand how you come to that conclusion. Firstly the closing down bug is fixed, and secondly I am not aware of any proven "long shot bug" in any version of FM2008.

I cant comment further on your examples without viewing the actual matches.

However stats from a one season PL test I ran before it was released using patch code showed the following:

English Premier Division
---------------
Games played 380
Goals per match 2.39
Shots per match 23.32
Shots on target per match 12.31 (53%)

Cheers,
Paul </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well from what I can see, the reason for a high number of shots is from players shooting from distance and players not closing them down. They just shoot from situations where they can either pass to someone who free on the wing or making runs forward. Shooting aimlessly outside of the box trying to score.

If you take a look at these games I posted you will see that I have my MCa on long shots set to rarely. Yet he takes 6-8 shots from outside of the box. Ive followed suggestion of toning down the creative freedom which I have to the point where its 2 notche before normal and it still happens. http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4982071363

I will upload games for you give for to anlayse. You should get them tomorrow morning.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hairy Coo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Get better players making the shots or change your tactics </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Now thats advice which covers all bases </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this case the second part is almmost certainly correct.
Sure the creative part of his team is working well, but there's obviously a problem in the final third.

I'm going to guess that he's being too attacking, and too up-tempo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I said before my fowards are these Rooney, Pato, Podolski, Fernandez at the peak of their career age 24,25,26,27. I can't get any better players then those really.

I dont think I play a high tempo game or if there are anything wrong with my tactics.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4237/aaaaaaaaaasv3.jpg

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
Fred, none of the threads you've linked to have any sort of statistical data backing up what they're saying. It's basically just rants based on losing matches.

If you can provide proper objective stats to back up your claims then please do so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My god I have stats up inthe first post that says 30 shots, 20 on target 1 goal scored.
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/8099/manuwesthambn2.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1200/wqeqweqeqeqy8.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8476/aaaaaaaaaaqt2.jpg

There like 10 examples there and one the first post I posted 4 treads about people with the same problem.

Heres another
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4072091363



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sweed:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:


The game somehow stops me from scoring easy goals and preventing me winning matches I should have won.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, just wow. That's got to be the post of the year, too funny. If you are not winning it is something YOU are doing, it's not the game going out of it's way to cheat you. When I lose a match I may yell at my monitor or curse my bad luck but then I go back and try to figure out what I could have done better instead of blaming the coding of the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am winning 90% of my games but my players have to create 30 chances to score 1 or 2 goals.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nojanana:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and secondly I am not aware of any proven "long shot bug" in any version of FM2008. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh dear, even the ppl in charge are in denial now!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Prove him wrong, then. There's a bugs forum and FTP available to you for this purpose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fcuk sakes Ackter why you acting like there is no problem with longs shots. Like I said I believe the closing down is link. Players down close down therefore allowing long shots to take place. I admit it has been tone down but still seems to be here.

You want more examples..... here

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...122062653#2122062653 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/4882029553?r=2122062653#2122062653)
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...712090063#7712090063 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/7712090063?r=7712090063#7712090063)
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...822019353#2822019353 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/5882089743?r=2822019353#2822019353)
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...172095953#2172095953 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/2172095953?r=2172095953#2172095953)
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...762003953#2762003953 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/6452012953?r=2762003953#2762003953)
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...482006453#7482006453 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/7712035453?r=7482006453#7482006453)
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...222019943#6222019943 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/2622009943?r=6222019943#6222019943)
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...222019943#6222019943 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/2622009943?r=6222019943#6222019943)
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...152004653#8152004653 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/5882089743?r=8152004653#8152004653)
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717...162087471#9162087471 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/2702096471?r=9162087471#9162087471)
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717...562018902#9562018902 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/7212008902?r=9562018902#9562018902)
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717...412093021#5412093021 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/5212071021?r=5412093021#5412093021)

--b--
22-11-2007, 17:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlayerX:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buckfast:
lol. Your name is "Cameron Kwong" what a stupid name </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was below-the-belt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes. harsh but fair.

Myros
22-11-2007, 17:12
OK here's a real world stat for comparison:

Team Man City (season so far)-
Games played 13
Goals 15
shots : on target 75
shots : off target 63

Another random stat (season so far):
Games played 13
Manchester United have had most Shots On Target (49), most Shots Off Target (55), most Shots Per Goal. (26.00) and most Corners (51)

See the 26 shots per goal stat? ;p

M

woody2goody
22-11-2007, 17:22
""Like I said before my fowards are these Rooney, Pato, Podolski, Fernandez at the peak of their career age 24,25,26,27.""

This must mean that you haven't started a new game with that patch because you couldn't have played through 3 seasons THAT quickly?

If you did correct me but if you haven't maybe you need to start a new game for the full effects of the patch to work correctly.

vasilli07
22-11-2007, 18:06
I am one of the few who complained about the long shot bug after beta patch 1.

After patching, i had lesser long shots even though when i increase my player creativity, i like it the way as it is.

If SI tweaked the shots to goal ratio, wouldn't we get high scoring games more(which some peeps complained about) and maybe some ridiculous scoreline at the end of the day?

Finally, if SI tweaked it, i believe some peeps will complained they have world class attacking players but do not have more shots more than their opponents.

This field intentionally left blank
22-11-2007, 18:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If SI tweaked the shots to goal ratio, wouldn't we get high scoring games more(which some peeps complained about) and maybe some ridiculous scoreline at the end of the day? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe they could reduce the number of shots. Its the defending that needs to improve not the shot/goal ratio.

Ackter
22-11-2007, 18:41
The number of shots during AI v AI games is pretty much perfect, it's when you get humans interacting with the match engine and doing weird things that the stats start to go off-kilter.

ifllorescu
22-11-2007, 19:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
The number of shots during AI v AI games is pretty much perfect, it's when you get humans interacting with the match engine and doing weird things that the stats start to go off-kilter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is just stupid man. I do not care about AI games. I care about my games. I play them.

And yeah I think 90% of the people are complaining because it is really hard to set a tactic and continue to win with it. You change something (actually anything) and you will win several (read 2-3 games). Then somehow the computer player adapts and your tactic doesn't work anymore. That is frustrating. I have a Ph.D. and i do not want to do fake research in a fantasy world every 3 games. I do enough of that in real life. I play this game to have fun. In fact the reason I like this game is that I can watch a real game and play it in a window next to it.

I hoped the patch would make things easier but it still seems that once you lose two three games your whole season spirals out of control.

Chris_483
22-11-2007, 19:13
It's absolutely ridiculous. How many one-on-one chances against a sh*t keeper do you need to score when you have 18 finishing 17 composure. Yes Marlon King failed to score one one-on-one in 11 one-on-one situations. And I wont even bother listing how many times Haynes and Doudin have spurned one-on-ones with there high finishing and composure against useless keepers.

Ackter
22-11-2007, 19:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ifllorescu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
The number of shots during AI v AI games is pretty much perfect, it's when you get humans interacting with the match engine and doing weird things that the stats start to go off-kilter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is just stupid man. I do not care about AI games. I care about my games. I play them.

And yeah I think 90% of the people are complaining because it is really hard to set a tactic and continue to win with it. You change something (actually anything) and you will win several (read 2-3 games). Then somehow the computer player adapts and your tactic doesn't work anymore. That is frustrating. I have a Ph.D. and i do not want to do fake research in a fantasy world every 3 games. I do enough of that in real life. I play this game to have fun. In fact the reason I like this game is that I can watch a real game and play it in a window next to it.

I hoped the patch would make things easier but it still seems that once you lose two three games your whole season spirals out of control. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

FM has pretty much always been about creating a self-sustaining football world that a human user can take part in. Get the AI numbers right is incredibly important.

The other important thing, which is not at acceptable levels yet imo, is the feedback that the user is given by the AI world. We need to know how the world of football works - FM may not work exactly like the real world, but it's the FM world we need to understand. The game should be giving us a lot more information.

For example, take Fred here. If he could click a button called "tactical analyser" and then be given a few hints and tips about what might be going wrong, and what might be going right, he'd then be in a much better position to get his tactics working as he wants them to.

This field intentionally left blank
22-11-2007, 19:44
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The number of shots during AI v AI games is pretty much perfect, it's when you get humans interacting with the match engine and doing weird things that the stats start to go off-kilter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So SI have produce a game that can't be played by humans!

ROTLFMAO!!!!!!!!

This field intentionally left blank
22-11-2007, 19:55
I'm sorry this is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. Its like the bus company that instructed their buses not to stop to pick up passengers if they were behind schedule (true story). When questioned about this they said "well, we had to do this to keep to the schedule. Picking up passengers just slows the buses down".

Talk about losing the plot.

Caesarius
22-11-2007, 20:01
Too many text walls.
I also remember Fred been warned on these forums.
Im out of this thread.

Ackter
22-11-2007, 20:09
Ah, so you're just planning on intentionally missing the point? Or are you seriously struggling to see the logic of it?

Vazlerm
22-11-2007, 20:57
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
My forwards are far from crap so it cant be my players.
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2530/qweqeqeqeqeqeqewx1.jpg

My tactic works because I create 30 chances.

The game somehow stops me from scoring easy goals and preventing me winning matches I should have won.

It's not one offs. Its every game I play. My screen shots prove this
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3343/asadadadqs4.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6581/666666666iu7.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There does seem to be a bug, its more of an inability to really look at stats bug though.

Everyone I hear complaining just keeps coming out with "I had 30 shots and I didnt win" yet funnily enough, I dont hear you stating how many shots on target your best striker had and how many of those he converted.

So of those 30 shots, how many were on target? of those how many fell to players feet who had good finishing + composure? how many came off the head of people who had crap heading? how many were long shots from someone with awful long shooting?

Seriously, provide proper data or just stop complaining.

JordanC
22-11-2007, 22:06
&lt;yawn&gt; &lt;yawn&gt; &lt;yawn&gt;

How many individual posts can be made on the same subject?!?!?

I almost want to suggest people upload and send me their complete saved game for me to use. There is no distinct bug with this in the game!

Bumface
22-11-2007, 22:37
Fred Mate,you will NEVER see a fix for this, as it is the only way the game can cope with its own weakness's.

It started out as a "Super Tactic" stopper, but now its so easy to put together a dominant tactic that its implementation is nescasary in order to keep the absolutely horrificly weak match engine together.

ivod
22-11-2007, 22:41
i'd be pretty ****ed if this wasn't a friendly (http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8014/00tp2.png)

Vazlerm
22-11-2007, 22:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ivod:
i'd be pretty ****ed if this wasn't a friendly (http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8014/00tp2.png) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ffs you had 13 shots on target, big wow! But as with all the others, you havent bothered supplying the stats sheet. Come on lets see which players had those 13 shots on target.

Im not going to repeat myself over and over, so read this cos its the last time I will write it...
You need to look at who is getting the shots, you need to look at if those on target are headers from people with crap heading, long shots from people with crap long shots, just any shot from people with no finishing or composure.

I bet if you put every single player in your team on to rarely do long shots, you would be a much happier person if your extent of looking at stats is to just check shots and nothing more.

Vymrr
22-11-2007, 23:28
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ivod:
i'd be pretty ****ed if this wasn't a friendly (http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8014/00tp2.png) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had an exact same situation with ManU in a friendly game with some mediocre club. Lots of shots, some on target and ALL of them shot wide or above the post like some Under18 kiddy striker (and those shots were taken by Rooney and Tevez - missing 1-on-1s and clear-cut chances against lousy GKs? I don't think so).

1 or 2 of these missed shots is fine - but 4 or 5 of them? I think what SI did is what Bumface said, although I do think that this issue CAN be fixed by SI.

themavsman
22-11-2007, 23:54
I am getting exactly the same problems, averaging about 30 shots on goal and only 1 and 2 goals to show for it http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

Fred_the_Red
23-11-2007, 01:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vazlerm:
There does seem to be a bug, its more of an inability to really look at stats bug though.

Everyone I hear complaining just keeps coming out with "I had 30 shots and I didnt win" yet funnily enough, I dont hear you stating how many shots on target your best striker had and how many of those he converted.

So of those 30 shots, how many were on target? of those how many fell to players feet who had good finishing + composure? how many came off the head of people who had crap heading? how many were long shots from someone with awful long shooting?

Seriously, provide proper data or just stop complaining. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you bothered reading through this thread and actually looking at the thread links I provided you will see my stats and others stats posted. There are 10 examples which someohow you missed and only come in here complaining no one posts stats. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/8099/manuwesthambn2.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1200/wqeqweqeqeqy8.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8476/aaaaaaaaaaqt2.jpg

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bumface:
Fred Mate,you will NEVER see a fix for this, as it is the only way the game can cope with its own weakness's.

It started out as a "Super Tactic" stopper, but now its so easy to put together a dominant tactic that its implementation is nescasary in order to keep the absolutely horrificly weak match engine together. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know in some ways I do accept it that every tactic I build I create 30 chances, 20 shots on goal, but results in 1 or 2 goals. I think now with the patch that has fixed or reduced bugs I cant ask for a more near perfect game really. Its not worth me complaining, moaning or requesting for another patch. I guess I just have to carry on and finally start a proper career within the game now. It's been more then then a month since purchased.

Jimbokav1971
23-11-2007, 01:41
Fred. I'm reserving judgement on the patch until I have played it more, but I can see this from both sides and I have a suggestion.

A lot of the people who have an opposing view to you want you to back up your comments with stats. When they say stats they don't want just the stats of 1 game, they want the stats for a season.

Now I know that to compile stull like this is pretty onerous but you obviously spend a fair bit of time playing the game so it would seem to make sense.

I would create a "statto sheet" and mould it to your most common formations.

SC1
Total shots.
Total goals.
Total shots on target.
Total shots on target in 6 yard box.
Total shots on target centrally in pen area.
Total shots on target wide in penalty area.
Total shots on target outside box.
Total shots off target.
Total shots off target in 6 yard box.
Total shots off target centrally in pen area.
Total shots off target wide in penalty area.
Total shots off target outside box.

I know that you could compile this, even if you only compiled info on shots that were shown in key highligts or however you watch the game.

Compile a stats sheet in advance and just use a tally system as the game progresses.

I would love you to prove this either way http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

UELLfan
23-11-2007, 01:41
Sure my strikers and wingers sometimes do rush their shots and don't take their time to have a better shot/goal ratio.

Sure my central midfielders do the odd long shot here and now when the oposition manmarks my striker and covers my wingers.

However, I do tinker my tactics ingame or change my setpieces to try and open space when the result is not acceptable.

If I manage to get a lead I'll change my tactics and defend it and, oh wonder of wonders, when the oposition come at me I find more spaces and more cut clear chances and we sometimes score from those counters.

I can't back it up with data now as I'm at work but I'd say we do have a 55% shot on target ratio and a 25-30% goal/shots on goal ratio.

Vazlerm
23-11-2007, 01:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:

If you bothered reading through this thread and actually looking at the thread links I provided you will see my stats and others stats posted. There are 10 examples which someohow you missed and only come in here complaining no one posts stats. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/8099/manuwesthambn2.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1200/wqeqweqeqeqy8.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8476/aaaaaaaaaaqt2.jpg
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you for real? ROFL
Ok lets break this down for you because you really are not very bright are you.

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/8099/manuwesthambn2.jpg

Anderson had an awful game, just look at his 5 rating. Plus he only had 3 shots on target, and you expect a goal from that? from someone having a very bad game?

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1200/wqeqweqeqeqy8.jpg

Ok so he had one great game where he had 5 on target and managed to score 2 goals? What is the problem? There are few strikers in the world who would complain about that ratio, but considering Anderson is an AMC that is fantastic.
Then he had another awful game and failed to score from 8 shots on target. But again, he had a 5 rating, he was playing like crap and you expect him to be scoring them?

What you seem to be failing to realise is this... Anderson is a midfielder! So even with long shots on rarely, I guarantee more often than not his shots are not close range.

Your final screenshot...
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8476/aaaaaaaaaaqt2.jpg

Doesnt really prove very much either. Your strikers, when given chances, are getting goals.

You lost against everton because the only natural finisher that was playing well was Rooney and he scored.

You lost against valencia because your team were playing crap.

And your obviously not very bright, because you have Rooney as your captain.

A player can have the best stats in the game and it wont mean a thing if they are playing badly. Its no different than in RL, dont matter how good many of the england players are rated as individuals, they played crap as a team and therefor did not perform and failed to even qualify for euro 2008. Fix whats making them perform so badly, whether it be lack of support, poor formation, bad tactics or not liking the positions your playing them in, or whatever the problem is.

chopper99
23-11-2007, 01:49
Ahh, here we go again.

There's no denying that there is a problem, but it's certainly not the problem everyone keeps saying it is.

The thing that makes me laugh is people saying 'it's not my tactics because I have 30 shots every game'. In real life any team can go out and have 30 shots on goal, that doesn't mean they're going to win anything.

The simple fact is if you're having this problem at all then you need to accept that it is down to the way you've set your tactics up. Unfortunately this is fact, simply because there are plenty of us who don't have this problem.

But that doesn't mean there isn't a problem and Akter's summed up perfectly what the real problem actually is. Feedback, or lack of it to be precise.
The fact is that many people are still in FM05 mode where you just needed to go really attacking and have lots of shots to win a game. The fact is that playing very attacking doesn't really work anymore, you need a more balanced tactic. Due to the inability of the match engine to represent the quality of chances just looking at how many shots you had is no way to measure success of a tactic. Results are what determine the success of a tactic. If you're not getting results you're not using a good enough tactic.

But how are people supposed to know this? And more importantly how are they supposed to know why their tactic isn't working? Simple fact is that it's currently quite difficult to figure out where your tactic's going wrong and therefor very difficult to know what needs to be done about it. Until we get some form of analysis tool or better feedback then this problem will remain and these types of threads will continue.

I suggest looking at the results you get with your tactic as your first yard stick as to whether it's working properly. And I also suggest using this forum to push SI to provide feedback and tactical analysis in the next game so that we have the tools to help us understand the tactical interfact in the same way AI managers do.

pauly15
23-11-2007, 01:56
i've had a lot of problems scoring but not from too many shots- if you get your tactics right the game works fine.

I was having a problem with poor striker performance (6's and not scoring despite CL quality players) which i thought was the game, I posted my issues here and discussed some things with a helpful poster in the forums and now the system is providing great results.

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5211026...232004263#4232004263 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/9582043263?r=4232004263#4232004263)

djdji
23-11-2007, 02:12
well. i have to say that the number of missed or saved 1 on 1 chances is a bit unrealistic..if my striker goes 1 on 1 three times in a match it would be reasonable that he scores at least one goal with finishing 19..
but what bothers me more is that it is unbelivably hard to get that second goal to finish off the opponent..i'm playing with man city and i'm playing some nice football..so i score one goal and then my players are continuing with the pressure,they create chances but that second goal is almost inpossible to score ant finish off the game..i've played 19 games in premiership so far and i've won 9 and out of them i've won 1-0 in six of them, playing really good but the second goal is so hard to score..
in beta patch there was normal that when playing against a poor opponent you would score at least 2 or 3 goals and win comfortably but now it is too hard..even in home games you have to bite your nails against a poor team...which is unrealistic,let's be honest..
otherwise, the match engine looks great and the game is much faster so big up for that..

Jimbokav1971
23-11-2007, 02:13
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Are you for real? ROFL
Ok lets break this down for you because you really are not very bright are you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vazlerm. You might very well have had a very valid point.

Unfortunately, many posters including myself simply stop reading after that line http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon13.gif.

Vazlerm
23-11-2007, 02:27
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Are you for real? ROFL
Ok lets break this down for you because you really are not very bright are you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vazlerm. You might very well have had a very valid point.

Unfortunately, many posters including myself simply stop reading after that line http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon13.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that is your choice, but funnily enough you saw fit to read thru the posts of someone saying "why should I have to fix a tactic that gives me 30 shots" and great lines like "its £24.99 of my hard earned money"

This is just one of many threads with people complaining about shots vs goals, but not providing full data. When he did, it pretty much showed what I was expecting. Strikers with shots on target playing well were scoring goals, and the ones not scoring were midfielders who were not playing well anyway. Then he even backed up my point by showing Anderson, an AMC, getting 2 goals from 5 shots on target in the one game he played well.

I am getting bored of saying it, but it still remains true. Shots mean nothing when you dont look at who is having the shots, from where, with what stats, are they playing well, etc, etc. But the ones complaining are the ones who are not looking at all the factors

Agenteusa
23-11-2007, 02:38
Hi everyone,

I was playing with Arsenal and had a good 1st season. I'm starting my 2nd season and already won the first cup(can´t remember name, sorry).

I really don't think the game has any problems and in fact it's even better after I installed 8.0.1 patch over the beta one.

I just think sometimes people that complain forget the basics of football and how uncertain the sport really is. If FM behaved like people wanted, and like the example we had Pato, Tevez and I don't know Henry, Ronaldinho, Kaká, probably you would win almost everytime, but in real life we had examples (Real Madrid) that a dream team has sometimes more problems than a well based and consistent team.

You know, these things(and refering to FM now) like morale, personality, general happiness, tactics(like someone said creating chances means nothing if you shoot from 30 metres, as my club Benfica actually does...http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif) are all part of the game and should be taken in consideration.The games isn't all about buying the best players and then just throwing them on field and expect everything goes well.

Lastly watch a full match in 2d or preferably 2 just to sort how your team is playing and where the errors are coming from because you can have the best players even on defense but if your team balance is very offensive you probably will have problems on counters specially if opposing team has fast forwards. Watch the training too...

Sorry for the long post... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

come on ragusa!
23-11-2007, 02:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NickBlues:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NickBlues:
fix your tactics http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should I fix a working tactic that creates 30 shots on goal??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


did you score 30 goals? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Silly you! You must have forgotten to tick that 'make sure you score when you shoot' box in the tactics screen.

Myros
23-11-2007, 03:00
Personaly I watch to much football ;p And there is not a week goes by where I dont see players doing idiotic things that must make there real life managers bang there head on a wall. The fact that people come in here frustrated may be an indication that SI got things pretty close to right on http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fred_the_Red
23-11-2007, 03:05
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

I would create a "statto sheet" and mould it to your most common formations.

SC1
Total shots.
Total goals.
Total shots on target.
Total shots on target in 6 yard box.
Total shots on target centrally in pen area.
Total shots on target wide in penalty area.
Total shots on target outside box.
Total shots off target.
Total shots off target in 6 yard box.
Total shots off target centrally in pen area.
Total shots off target wide in penalty area.
Total shots off target outside box.

I know that you could compile this, even if you only compiled info on shots that were shown in key highligts or however you watch the game.

Compile a stats sheet in advance and just use a tally system as the game progresses.

I would love you to prove this either way http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone is already documenting this in the bugs forum. I dont think I have time to write and anyalse stats like that to be honest.

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/6682090363


I have already toned down tactics alot since I first started. Most of my attacking players instructions are two or three notches from the middle (Normal) so i cant really take it anymore back. I will tone down creative freedom further and attacing men and play a game of simular to liverpool. But other then that I cant see anything wrong with my tactics. I won FA cups and league cups with it. Just that I see my players missing sitters most of the time and working extra hard creating chances only to miss them.

kelveen
23-11-2007, 03:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Myros:
Personaly I watch to much football ;p And there is not a week goes by where I dont see players doing idiotic things that must make there real life managers bang there head on a wall. The fact that people come in here frustrated may be an indication that SI got things pretty close to right on http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The most logical and brilliant post so far. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Stian1234
23-11-2007, 03:20
Isn't 1 goal per 10 chances pretty much what is the "accepted" chance-2-goal ratio?

I can remember the former Norwegian and Wimbledon manager Egil "Drillo" Olsen (currently managing Iraq) saying so back in the day.

NepentheZ
23-11-2007, 06:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Myros:
OK here's a real world stat for comparison:

Team Man City (season so far)-
Games played 13
Goals 15
shots : on target 75
shots : off target 63

Another random stat (season so far):
Games played 13
Manchester United have had most Shots On Target (49), most Shots Off Target (55), most Shots Per Goal. (26.00) and most Corners (51)

See the 26 shots per goal stat? ;p

M </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like i told you in the other thread...

How can Man U have 'had the most shots on target (49)' yet in the example above, Man City have had 75 on target. Go figure.

Im not getting into this debate AGAIN. I have done in a few threads, and decided to do something about it. So I did.

This is what i came up with (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=21019056&f=9482076743&m=6682090363&r=6682090363#6682090363)

Its posted in the bugs forum, and basically im attempting so firgure out if the computer shows an unfair bias toward AI when shooting, and away from the human manager, which is exactly what i thought it would do.

To my suprise, and indeed delight, i was wrong, and after my current findings (all be it only a few games of many to be studied), the game seems to be showing a bias toward the HUMAN MANAGER.

Yes, we can see plenty of examples where its the other way, but from many peoples games, we are bound to see many examples.

Im still on the fence, as within my FM gaming time i have noticed this a lot, but im starting to feel its because i overlook the times it goes the other way. I Urge you guys to follow my bug thread, as you will be very suprised at what the full outcome will be.

Jam Man
23-11-2007, 07:04
Personally I think theres a problem where some tactics produce too many chances, either scoreable ones or not.

The tactics I use produce very realistic amounts of chances and goals ratio but thats not to say playing one man up front or some other tactical setting isnt producing odd results.

Jam Man
23-11-2007, 07:08
PS Coincidentally, or maybe not, but NepentheZ
you seem to be playing one up front....

NepentheZ
23-11-2007, 07:27
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jam Man:
PS Coincidentally, or maybe not, but NepentheZ
you seem to be playing one up front.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does it make that much of a difference? If people think it does, After the current experiment ends, i'd be happy to do it with a standard 4-4-2 aswell.

spongebob_squarepants
23-11-2007, 07:27
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feltus:
Agrees with Fred.

Almost every game I have like 3-4 times more shots than my opponent, and I aint winning, thats for sure..

Seem to have this problem only when im playing attacking football with quick tempo..

Anyone else who can confirm the same?

Feltus </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a very good point, i had this problem playing a very attacking mentatlity and quick tempo, i have noticed when i tone down the tempo my shots on target ratio increases also by reducing the Attacking mentality the amount of chances drops but the ratio of goals to shots also increased. When you think about it it does make sense to some degree. However surely the players descision/anticipation/tecnique attributes should be taken into account. So i could understand this happening with some of the teams i have managed i.e MK Dons, Brentford and Sparta Rotterdam, however i would expect players like Rooney, Henry et al to make more of their chances even when playing a more attacking, quick tempo game otherwise whats the point of having a quick tempo/attcking option if it doesn't work. It's not like the 2 options would be incompatible it's how a lot of the top teams would play i.e ManYoo, Barc to name just 2.

black 'n amber tiger
23-11-2007, 07:29
How many of these so called 'shots' actually have a chance of going in the back of the net?

u
23-11-2007, 07:32
did you people even start a new game? I dont know about you, but i started a chelsea game right after the patch, and i dont seem to have a shots to goal ratio issue. it is surely improved after the patch.

George Graham
23-11-2007, 07:32
Devils advocate here- I suggest that counter attacking, backs to the wall football is far to effective.

Thats how Ive played and I my goals scored/conceded ration is 2.7 to 0.6.

Every season I have been rated as a relegation candidate as well- I appreciate that tactics are important but do feel that player ability is far too secondary to the tactical side.

Not that I want it to swing entirely towards the players ability but imo a middle ground needs to be found.

Jam Man
23-11-2007, 07:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NepentheZ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jam Man:
PS Coincidentally, or maybe not, but NepentheZ
you seem to be playing one up front.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does it make that much of a difference? If people think it does, After the current experiment ends, i'd be happy to do it with a standard 4-4-2 aswell. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No idea.

Hardly dont any investigations, but Ive looked at 2 examples so far and both were using one up front, plus the only unrealistic game Ive seen on mine was with one up front.

Could well be co-incidence but you might want to try a test game with a standard 442 tactic just to see what difference it makes over 10 games or so.

Jam Man
23-11-2007, 07:54
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
I appreciate that tactics are important but do feel that player ability is far too secondary to the tactical side.

Not that I want it to swing entirely towards the players ability but imo a middle ground needs to be found. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes I agree with that.

In all versions of CM/FM getting the winning tactic has always felt more important than the players you buy, although they obviously play a part.

Very hard to get the balance right.

Moverman98
23-11-2007, 07:57
change your tactic

Maviarab
23-11-2007, 07:58
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Its £24.99 of my hard earn money that Ive payed and not been able to play since I first purchased it (October). Waited and waited for weeks and weeks for a decent patch to fix things. But still unable to play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ive been playing it since day one...no probs.

Also, to have a go at another moaner...if you bought a car...and the glove box was a little loose...would you not drive the car until your dealer could fix it? Even though you paid for it with your 'hard earned money'

Don't be so damn theatrical, play the game, enjoy it, and stop posting dumb comments please.

Rich_Millers
23-11-2007, 08:23
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Maviarab:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Its £24.99 of my hard earn money that Ive payed and not been able to play since I first purchased it (October). Waited and waited for weeks and weeks for a decent patch to fix things. But still unable to play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ive been playing it since day one...no probs.

Also, to have a go at another moaner...if you bought a car...and the glove box was a little loose...would you not drive the car until your dealer could fix it? Even though you paid for it with your 'hard earned money'

Don't be so damn theatrical, play the game, enjoy it, and stop posting dumb comments please. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a silly comparison.

more like if you bought a car with your hard earned money and the exhaust fell off, or the clutch broke, would u take it back. I'm sure i would.

NepentheZ
23-11-2007, 10:51
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moverman98:
change your tactic </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good input. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And i have to agree with Rich here. If you had a dodgy glove box, you would get it fixed when you had the time. But if you had a major fault, you would get it fixed instantly. Taking nothing away from SI, as they have done the job to the best of thier ability, but the comparison was abstract.

neilb242
23-11-2007, 11:03
I've had more than one game where when the first goal went in for a team, it said 0 shots on goal.

However, I shrugged my shoulders, and concentrated on how to get a goal back or get another. no good just moaning about it since it already happened.

I'm finding the game very difficult, but I always do till I find the tactic that makes everything click. But this game is the best management game out there. If you disagree, then try a different one?

NepentheZ
23-11-2007, 11:07
The 0 shots could be and own goal. Or a cross thats gone in, or a missplaced pass that made its way past the keeper.


On my life, i once won a game in FM06 3-0 without having a single shot.

NeilUK
23-11-2007, 11:07
They are all like Premiership managers complaining after a defeat. I notice no-one complains that the computer teams miss too many chances! Always that their team does, if you are losing, improve your players, training, tactics etc
The "long shot bug" has never existed at all, the closing down certainly has been fixed in my game. I have examples of games where I have 1 chance and win 1-0, and examples of 20 shots and lose 1-2 for instance. In other words, realistic!

tubbycrabs
23-11-2007, 11:21
The problem affects both the user and AI controlled teams. If you watch any top AI teams playing against a much worse team, you'll notice that their forwards miss the same kind of chances that the user forwards do.

There's no bias towards the AI at all, just against teams that are creating crazy amounts of chances.

This is the problem.

Top quality players clean through on goal, with time and space, do NOT consistently miss multiple chances in matches. Maybe 1 match in 15, yes, but not every game they play in.

Who'd want a player in their team up front who keeps missing 5 clear cut chances a match? They wouldn't last long at any club.

The match engine needs tweaking so that it's not so simple to devise a tactic that creates ridiculous amounts of easy chances. If this doesn't happen, then the game is going to continue showing players missing these easy chances so the scores can be kept at a reasonable level.

fgu82
23-11-2007, 11:37
With all due respect, I believe this is a problem arising from the coding of the game.

Of course it doesn't mean that you will win a game if you have more than 20 shots. It is about quality, not quantity (e.g., use players with good finishing, long shots and composure to take the shots). However, this is exactly what I am doing and my players are not obeying me. I specifically tell my wingers to take long shots very rarely yet more than half of the team's shoots come from those two, who have shooting around 14 and so I don't score that often. At this stage, it is not about tactics, not about me knowing how to play FM08 or not, but it is certainly about an error in the game. If the players are not following spesific player instructions, there is not much left to do here.

Sorry guys, the patch is great but with one major error!

T-Bag
23-11-2007, 12:38
I have been through my last 11 COMPETITIVE matches and here are some stats. I could go back even more to get a better data set to be perfectly honestly the rest of the results are very similar so I don't think it will skew the date much at all tbh.


My Stats

63% of all shots on goal are on target - 140 shots, 88 on target.

A goal results from 14% of my shots - 20 goals from a total of 140 shots.

A goal results from 22% of my shots which are on target. 88 shots out of a total of 140.

AI Stats

59% of all shots are on target - A total of 142 shots, 82 of which were on target.

A goal resulted from 6% of all shots on goal - 9 goals from a total of 142 shots

A goal resulted from 10% of all shots on target. 9 goals from 84 shots on target.



Other notes - My GK is on fire, i've brought him through the youth ranks and he has won youth awards etc.

My strikers are a 32 year old Anelka, 31 year old Smith, and Bojinov. None of these are in the world class category. I see no problem at all, if anything, look at the stats, the bias is by far in my favour.

GoGa70
23-11-2007, 12:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The match engine needs tweaking so that it's not so simple to devise a tactic that creates ridiculous amounts of easy chances </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The biggest problem is that teams at any level seem to play exactly the same - quick accurate passing combined with dribbling and dummy wingbacks. That needs fixing.

T-Bag
23-11-2007, 12:59
Actually to consider this a bit more, I think it may be something else.

Is everyone who is getting this playing as a big team or have really great players ?

I beleive there is a MASSIVE over bias to smaller clubs on FM and has been since the last version. My team is average at best yet i'm sitting top of the league, I win games I shouldn't and only have a couple of good players.

BUT EVERY (and I mean every, I do the stats) time I play bottom of the league or a lower league team I lose. EVERY SINGLE time. Funnily enough I dominate the game and they win in much the way other people are describing in this thread.

I reckon it's the same issue.

bRAzIL
23-11-2007, 13:01
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No but I expect after creating 30 chances that my players consisting of Rooney, Pato, Podolski, Fernandez and Anderson would at least put away 2 of those chances and win teams that create 4 chances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL - Telling Rooney not to take long shots means jack. Imagine that, Rooney seeing a opportunity for a shot and then thinking "hang on, manager says not to"

His flair, creativity & decisions would override that.

ifllorescu
23-11-2007, 13:42
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T-Bag:
Actually to consider this a bit more, I think it may be something else.

Is everyone who is getting this playing as a big team or have really great players ?

I beleive there is a MASSIVE over bias to smaller clubs on FM and has been since the last version. My team is average at best yet i'm sitting top of the league, I win games I shouldn't and only have a couple of good players.

BUT EVERY (and I mean every, I do the stats) time I play bottom of the league or a lower league team I lose. EVERY SINGLE time. Funnily enough I dominate the game and they win in much the way other people are describing in this thread.

I reckon it's the same issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have this too. I think it has something to do with the pre-match odds stuff. The AI immediately changes its regular tactic somehow if it is an underdog in the game.

And to make a supposition probably way far-fetched: I know the game is run before you even start playing, what you see is actually the film of the match. Then every time the AI or you make a change in tactics the game is recalculated and play is resumed (that is why you wait when it says making changes). Is it possible that the algorithm goes through the game sees an amazing amounts of goals and decides to cut many of them to keep the scoreline "more realistic". That would explain the weird shot/goal ratio.

So perhaps making changes a lot during the game will confuse the AI.

This is just a speculation, I have no idea how they codded the match engine. I apologize in advance should my post annoys anyone.

sirdez24
23-11-2007, 14:20
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tubbycrabs:
The problem affects both the user and AI controlled teams. If you watch any top AI teams playing against a much worse team, you'll notice that their forwards miss the same kind of chances that the user forwards do.

There's no bias towards the AI at all, just against teams that are creating crazy amounts of chances.

This is the problem.

Top quality players clean through on goal, with time and space, do NOT consistently miss multiple chances in matches. Maybe 1 match in 15, yes, but not every game they play in.

Who'd want a player in their team up front who keeps missing 5 clear cut chances a match? They wouldn't last long at any club.

The match engine needs tweaking so that it's not so simple to devise a tactic that creates ridiculous amounts of easy chances. If this doesn't happen, then the game is going to continue showing players missing these easy chances so the scores can be kept at a reasonable level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is bang on. SI have three options, really:

1) Create too many good/clear chances, people complain scores are too high
2) Don't create too many good/clear chances, people complain it's too hard to find a winning tactic.
3) Miss too many good/clear chances, which is the current problem.

My tactic creates a high number of excellent chances, mostly one on ones, but I find myself needing 10-15 of these to score. I miss a lot of sitters and scuff a lot of chances. Opposition keepers make a lot of saves, particularly from close range. I often shoot early when through on goal, and it's generally tipped over or goes wide. Thing is, if I scored even half of clear opportunities on goal, I'd be scoring 7-8 goals a game. So the game compensates.

It's a bit like goals from corners. Out of the box, everything was disallowed. On the Beta, I found a high number of goals being scored. In 30 games since installing the proper patch, I haven't even gone close to scoring from a corner, even illegally. The most common occurrence is the guy at the near post heading wide, followed by "How did he miss that??" or something along those lines.

23-11-2007, 14:38
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
I thought the 8.0.1 patch would fix the closing down and long shots bug by now. But no it hasn't. Long shots seems to have been toned down a little, closing down seems to sometimes work sometimes doesn't.

Before the 8.0.1 patch
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5211026...342078263#9342078263 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/9342078263?r=9342078263#9342078263)

I had poor shots to goals ration

After the patch

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3343/asadadadqs4.jpg

Still the same! Nothing has changed.

Basically this closing down and long shot bug is what is causing everyone to have 20 shots on goal but only resulting in 1 or 2 goals scored. Fair enough only 2% of the shots go in. But if the opposition win as a result of 3 - 4 shots where you had 20 thats unfair and unrealistic.


There is a game in there where Ipswich had 5 shots but NO/NOTHING/ZERO shots had hit the target AND THEY STILL SCORED!?!??! That game cost me 2 points.

Since the patch I lost in the champions league, FA cup final and my run of form in the league.

There are a load of people complaing about the number of shots per goals since the installing the patch. So its not just me

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/6542031363
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/2542009263/p/7
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/7192061363

This thread documents some problems.
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/6682090363

I believe the long shot and closing bug has not been toned down enough or at all. This is why players are shooting outside of box when told not to and missiing targets therefore resulting in 20 shots on goal.

And before you tell me to upload my games to the bugs forum I HAVE SINCE OCTOBER

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076...062040953#9062040953 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/4882029553?r=9062040953#9062040953) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Some of the links provided to other threads such as Nepethenz that show easy chances ar not really easy chances. It all comes down to one on one situations, the goalkeeper closes the angle down making it harder for goals. I still believe there needs to be a variation in these chances, such as players running around keeper, chipin keeper, or nutmeging keepers. Most times players go for the harder option of simply trying to slot it past keeper.

ljdzsgffk
23-11-2007, 14:50
I can't be bothered to look, so can anyone tell me if SI have realised that there are way too many shots post-patch?

Crilly
23-11-2007, 15:28
This is annoying. (http://crillclan.adsl24.co.uk/images/shots.jpg)

sirdez24
23-11-2007, 15:36
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crilly:
This is annoying. (http://crillclan.adsl24.co.uk/images/shots.jpg) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm hovering near the relegation zone despite dominating teams and creating numerous good chances. Nothing will go in.

ljdzsgffk
23-11-2007, 15:50
Admit it SI - in terms of shots, you have failed.

In other areas you have done your job and sometimes exceeded it.

earmack
23-11-2007, 15:53
Look naysayers, I've had countless instances where my best strikers have failed to achieve 1/5 conversion rate, just because you haven't doesn't mean its not true. Like a lot of the SI 'fanclub' point out that they have no trouble with a particular problem we are pointing out we DO have a problem with no obvious solution.

Also In FM05 and 07 i used to count 'lucky' results for and against me, my criteria for both were different:
Lucky for me=a game that was fairly equal that i didn't lose(I **** you not).
Lucky against me=I had twice as many chances as the opposition when they won.

The numbers never evened out even though the criteria was so biased, basically lucky results for me per season = 3&lt;, lucky results against=8&gt;.

The 'funny' thing is this was a fairly consistent over 2 saves in two 'different' games with two different teams over 20 seasons in each game. I had success with both teams but the plain truth was I needed more chances to score than the opposition consistently.
Maybe this was because of 'tactics' but when the tactics you can employ are so obtuse as to ostensibly 'work' (you know like many have said how can it be my tactics when I'm dominating?)how in the name of Jesus are we meant to fix them? Its counter-intuitive and thus unfriendly.

You can call me a liar if you want but ask yourself why would I lie about this? I have no vested interest in SI positive or negative. Also the OP has posted what 50 games where this is seen and yet you still say 'no you just suck'.

Ackter
23-11-2007, 15:59
To the 1 upfron convo earlier on in this thread - the stats I posted at the begin are using a 1 up front formation.

Wakers
23-11-2007, 16:41
The main thing that we need to think about here is that there are several problems leading to this one issue, and it can't just be pinned down onto one part of the game.

Firstly, there is re-ranking - which i feel is the worst culprit here, as it is in now way realistic.. Part way through a season, your team can be playing fantastic, over achieving, strikers scoring for fun, defenders solid. Then suddenly, for no reason whatsoever your goalkeepers are blindfolded, your defenders have their shoelaces tied together and all of your strikers have turned into a poor impression of Marlon Harewood. This doesn't happen in real life - first of all, there is no mystical 're ranking' in real life. Arsenal had a better start to the season than was expected, teams adjusted to suit, but it doesn't turn them into muppets.

Secondly, the effect that it has on the match engine is the most irritating thing - IF it was realistic, then it would make your tactics noticeable less effective - i.e, you would find that you have less shots than your opponent, less possession. This would be much less annoying than simply making opposition goalkeepers become Beefed up Peter Schmeichels even if they play for Grimsby Town, but more importantly, it would let the player know that his tactic needs to be changed - whereas allowing a player to still have 22 shots on target and lose to the opponents single, deflected goal every game just frustrates everyone.

Then there are the problems caused by bias - lets look at real life. Manchester Utd or Arsenal play against a smaller team, like Sunderland or Reading. Reading play 11 men behind the ball, now this causes two things to happen: a) Manchester can't fashion 30 shots a game because there's not enough space or time on the ball to make all those shots and: b) Playing against a team with 11 men behind the ball does not suddenly mean that Rooney, Saha and Tevez will be unable to finish from 3 yards out, as is the current case in FM.

The next major problem with the match engine is the number of times that the opposition manager will change formation. In real life, Mourinhio changed his team's formation 3 times during one game, and it was practically unheard of. In FM, AI teams change formation 2/3 times Every game - blatently unrealistic and something that is highly unfair on the player.

Finally, player attributes should be more important. There is no point having this huge database full of carefully researched stats if they are going to mean nothing when the AI doesn't want you to win anymore. If a player has 15 finishing and composure or above, he should not suddenly go from scoring 1 every 2 games to missing 4 one and one's every game.

It's my opinion that the game is heading too far away from simulation in its aim to be challenging - they need to focus more on simulation for the next release instead of trying to make sure that no one can dominate with the same tactic every season. Again, my case in point is Arsenal - they've played the same way ten years now, and they've always been one of the best teams in the league, bar last season. In FM if you do well in the first season, then keep the same tactic after that it all goes miserably wrong, whether you have the same good squad or not - you can win the league with Man Utd in the first season but if you keep the same overall tactic its guaranteed that you will be mid table or worse half way thru the second season.

I'm not overly interested in playing FM08, as its clear SI don't think there's a problem, which is sad..the vision of the game is heading too far away from simulation.

I've heard that FMLive has a more basic approach to tactics, and maybe thats the way to go from here on.

Ackter
23-11-2007, 16:50
Re-ranking doesn't work like that.

Ackter
23-11-2007, 16:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The next major problem with the match engine is the number of times that the opposition manager will change formation. In real life, Mourinhio changed his team's formation 3 times during one game, and it was practically unheard of. In FM, AI teams change formation 2/3 times Every game - blatently unrealistic and something that is highly unfair on the player. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Changing from 442 to 442 attacking is considered a tactical change in game - and that's something that happens several times in every single real live match.

Wakers
23-11-2007, 16:59
Thats not what i meant - changing from 4-4-2 to 4-2-4 and then to 4-5-1 for 5 minutes and then back to 4-4-2 is what i mean. Secondly, how does re-ranking work then? Because it seems perfectly easy to tell when you have been re-ranked.

Ackter
23-11-2007, 17:14
Re-ranking happens on a constant basis, the way the AI sees you changes depending on how you play. There's no set times like you've mentioned.

The Christmas dip in form is usually caused by things like weather, poor pre-season training etc.

Other times during the season it's down to AI managers becoming more defensive because of how much of a threat they see you.

SmurfDude
23-11-2007, 18:31
Despite countless threads on this I still haven't seen anyone from SI comment on it. I'd be very interested to hear SI's view on this.

Ackter
23-11-2007, 18:35
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SmurfDude:
Despite countless threads on this I still haven't seen anyone from SI comment on it. I'd be very interested to hear SI's view on this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5211026...922091363#8922091363 (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4982071363?r=8922091363#8922091363)

ezamudin
23-11-2007, 22:29
I think the problem right now is that the ME cant cope with over attacking formation and to keep compromising it by having even world class strikers to missed sitters.

The problem became very clear to me when I'm back to the basic formation lay out WWFan excellent Tactical Design theory. With the control based formation, both my strikers (I'm playing Arsenal btw) are missing buttload of chances even tho I'm controlling the game. When i switched to the base Counter based formation, the situation is totally reversed.

Thus I believe now, SI need to find a good middle point because the current way of doing it, (by denying strikers to convert chances from an easy sitter) is far from favourable.

DJ
23-11-2007, 23:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
Devils advocate here- I suggest that counter attacking, backs to the wall football is far to effective.

Thats how Ive played and I my goals scored/conceded ration is 2.7 to 0.6.

Every season I have been rated as a relegation candidate as well- I appreciate that tactics are important but do feel that player ability is far too secondary to the tactical side.

Not that I want it to swing entirely towards the players ability but imo a middle ground needs to be found. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

May I suggest that this is pretty much realistic? I am a fan of Oranje. Against Luxemburg, we played 4-2-4, at times 3-3-4. We won by a whopping 1-0, at home, with an odd 30 shots against 2 and if we didn't have holy Edwin van der Sar on goal Luxemburg would have scored from their only two chances in the 90th minute, one-on-one with the goalie.

Quick, attacking football, with world class strikers (Kuijt, RvN) fed by world class wingers (the likes of Babel) against a team that consists of two professional players and 9 amateurs. 1-0.

Defensive tactics, whether we like it or not are very succesful these days. Heck, you can win the Euro Championships by defending.

The trick, as others have suggested, is to balance your attacking intentions. I think Wenger is showing is how it's done, at the moment: when you have great players at your disposal, keep on passing until you maximize your chance. It's no good shooting from all angles.

If you have a crap team with crap players, you just have to defend, defend, defend and hope that your crap forward doesn't miss that one chance per game, or hope to get something from a set piece.

I firmly believe that setting your tactics according to your players' abilities makes all the difference, as well as, and that's probably even more important, not to hesitate changing course mid-game.

Example: Bayern München. Frank Ribéry. His standard mode is to get the ball into his feet, then dribble past three opponents before firing it to Toni who then has ample opportunity to p|ss it into the net (which has worked great for them so far this season).

Some opponents manage to take that sting out of Bayerns game by putting a good tackler in Ribérys face, along with someone to back that tackler up in case the first defender is outdribbled. This reduces Ribérys effectiveness greatly. You often see him change his tune after a while: instead of dribbling, he starts passing the ball backwards/sideways for the 1-2 or he starts firing the ball into the 16 at the first opportunity.

IRL, he's intelligent enough to see when he doesn't get through with dribbling and changes his mode of play all by himself.

In FM, you have to tell him that! I consider that a good thing. As the news item goes: 'we may not win, but I'll be happy if the players follow their instructions'. Indeed. I'd rather lose with my players doing as I tell them than lose because they act like a bunch of donkeys.

I, like other posters, think that people who expect to win immediately, with whatever team, underestimate the effect of tactics and tweaking, as well as forgetting about all the other possible influences in the game on the outcome of matches. This is a simulation. It doesn't have an 'auto-win' mode. It's up to you to come up with the winning tricks.

Keep it real: would you, IRL, be able to guide ManU to a top 4 spot? Would you feck. It takes a SAF, Wenger, Mourinho, etc, to get the maximum out of a team.

ATW
23-11-2007, 23:58
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Basically this closing down and long shot bug is what is causing everyone to have 20 shots on goal but only resulting in 1 or 2 goals scored. Fair enough only 2% of the shots go in. But if the opposition win as a result of 3 - 4 shots where you had 20 thats unfair and unrealistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell that to a Motherwell fan, in fact no need to, as I can tell you it is very realistic!

tecni
24-11-2007, 01:54
No matter what the blind SI fans said, the problem is so obviously and in your face. Forget all the stats, watch the actually games. The number of easy chances missed are shocking. EVERY SINGLE TIME the striker get clean through on goal but is on the side of the keeper with the far post wide open HE ****ING PASS IT STRAIGHT AT THE KEEPER.

This game is becoming a plain joke now, with pathetic excuses like your tempo and time wasting is causing your strikers to miss chances that are easier to score than miss.

SI, your attempt at making this game more tactic orientated is a big ****ing failure.

Ackter
24-11-2007, 01:58
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">HE ****ING PASS IT STRAIGHT AT THE KEEPER. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This actually is a problem.

There needs to be a much wider variety of misses from one-on-one situations. The number of goals scored, on average, is pretty much correct. However, the manner of these misses are not.

There needs to be a lot more examples of shots being hit wide, hit against the post, hit to the side of the keepers but being saved etc.

UELLfan
24-11-2007, 02:08
Last 15 matches: Playing a 4-3-3 with the AML getting centered and wide AMR who's in charge of free kicks and penalties. Lone striker is in charge of wearing down the oposition. Speedy sub striker gets on when oposition centerbacks are tired.

If we're 2 up by HT we'll probably revert to a counter 5-3-2.

If we're 1 up in the last 15 minutes we'll most sure revert to a 5-4-1.

Bear in mind you should add the odd DMC, DR and DL shots and the centerbacks shots for corners, but I left them out for this.

Lastly, let me add we're the new kid in town (just promoted), so we're playing a slightly more defensive version of last season's tactic.

Av Shots/ Av Shots on Goal by selected players
8.26/4.5

Shots/On Goal
124/68 -&gt; 55%

Goals/Shots on Goal
21/68 -&gt; 31%

Lone Striker shots on Goal/ Goals
20/3 -&gt; 15%

Sub striker shots on Goal/Goals
15/8 -&gt; 53%

AMR shots on Goal/ Goals
18/7 -&gt; 39%

AML shots on Goal/ Goals
5/1 -&gt; 20%

MRC shots on goal/ goals
3/0 -&gt; 0%

MLC shots on goal/ Goals
7/2 -&gt; 28%

UELLfan
24-11-2007, 02:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">HE ****ING PASS IT STRAIGHT AT THE KEEPER. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must say I've tried lowering my strikers' creative freedom to normal (10) and this gets a bit better.

Speedy sub striker sometimes doesn't rush his shot and in rare occasions even dribbles (opens a bit wide) before making the shot.

Lone striker doesn't though http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Hedgren
24-11-2007, 02:34
I believe that SI has constructed the game in a way that there will be a lot of highlights during gameplay to keep the gamer from getting bored. Still they have fixed so there will be no 50% goals/shots on target to keep the game realistic. But I do agree that it really looks odd when you have 30 shots and AI 5 shots and the result is 1-1.

tecni
24-11-2007, 02:36
Frankly how did this escape the attention of SI when coming out with the patch? This surely should be pretty high on their priority list.

The change list in the patch thread had improve finishing for bread and butter chances, but this clearly is not the case. The only kind of goals I can score now is from set pieces and punt the ball into the area from wide and hope for the best. My midfielders would probably have 20plus assists each season if the strikers can finish the chances that is put on the plate for them.

daylight
24-11-2007, 02:38
While I agree the 1 on 1 should maybe be looked at to include some lobs or players rounding the keeper more,But the shots on goal ratio is alot better I think alot of people that post that it is still terrible maybe have all there midfielders shooting from 30yards 15 times in a game,I have simply set my 2 centre midfielders to rarely shot from distance and in the games I have played since the patch my shots on goal have maybe went down by 40% but my shots on goal-goals scored looks alot more realistic with games like 15shots 8 on target 7 not and won the game 3-1,Maybe people should try this instead of whinning they are having 30 shots at goal etc etc without conceding that half of them shots come from a midfielder from 30+ yards out.

tecni
24-11-2007, 02:42
Can you read? A lot of peeps already has long shot on rarely. What else can you do when they still do it

JasK
24-11-2007, 02:44
Something isn't right.

I thought i started off ok with 2 wins (4-0 blackburn, 22shots, 13 on target) & (5-1 toulouse, 25shots, 16 on target)... ... so i read with amusement on this thread... but i was wrong.

The next 4 games isn't right.
(won 1-0 newcastle, 25shots, 10 on target, steve harper rating 8 and MOM)
(won 1-0 tottenham, 34shots, 16 on target, paul robinson rating 9 and MOM)
(won 2-1 toulouse, 22shots, 12 on target, sebastien soulier rating 8 and MOM)
(won 1-0 aston villa, 26shots, 12 on target, thomas sorensen rating 8 and MOM)

dominated games, way many shots, many on target, all opposition keepers get highest rating and all of them got MOM.

funny isn't it

daylight
24-11-2007, 02:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tecni:
Can you read? A lot of peeps already has long shot on rarely. What else can you do when they still do it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry I can only answer through my experinces and since the patch and a little tinkering with my tactics it is alot better than pre-patch.

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 03:13
You can give players instructions but they can override them, based on their decision making skills.

They also may not have scored for a few games, and are rushing their shots, causing them to miss more.

Your team could be under pressure from a relegation or title challenges coming into the last few months, or your team talk or media interaction could have added pressure, and with pressure, comes snap shots, missed chances, and indecision.

In real life, I have seen countless world class strikers miss a lot of one-on-ones in the same game. How many times do you hear commentators say "That goal he's just scored was harder than the miss he had earlier".

Sometimes, the easy chances are the toughest to take.


There are simply too many variables to take into consideration for people to come on here and definitely say it's a bug.

Also, if you compare the total number of people on this forum to the number of people complaining, they would appear to be in the minority. Therefore, it's not a definite problem with the game, because otherwise it'd be happening to everyone. Coding issues would affect every single gamer. The fact it's only happening to some people indicates it's a problem with the way they are playing the game.


I have had no problems like the ones being described.

Until someone produces a complete list of stats for 1-2 seasons, broken down by shots taken, shots missed target, shots on target, goals scored, who made the shot and where from, and the morale of that player, for between 5-10 different teams in different leagues, then we won't have anything concrete to base any arguments on.

Until that time, it remains opinion, and opinions will be argued with no end result.

As a result, it's a slightly pointless argument.

Post in the bugs forum, and then leave it - wait for SI to either fix any problems, or make the decision that there isn't any, and just get on with playing the game best you can.

rebmalin
24-11-2007, 03:15
There's no point complaining. SI just write it off every year as people complainging about "super goalie". They've never admitted it's a problem and they never will. Because goalkeepers getting man of the match only against your team is perfectly normal... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

tecni
24-11-2007, 03:16
Got knock out of club world championship and Carling Cup quarter final in a week because of this ********. They just simply hold out for 0-0 than win easily on penalties, the user as usual still can't win a shootout even after the patch.

SI needs to sort this bloody mess out and get back to the drawing board and whoever code this game should be sack immediately.

tecni
24-11-2007, 03:21
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
You can give players instructions but they can override them, based on their decision making skills.

They also may not have scored for a few games, and are rushing their shots, causing them to miss more.

Your team could be under pressure from a relegation or title challenges coming into the last few months, or your team talk or media interaction could have added pressure, and with pressure, comes snap shots, missed chances, and indecision.

In real life, I have seen countless world class strikers miss a lot of one-on-ones in the same game. How many times do you hear commentators say "That goal he's just scored was harder than the miss he had earlier".

Sometimes, the easy chances are the toughest to take.


There are simply too many variables to take into consideration for people to come on here and definitely say it's a bug.

Also, if you compare the total number of people on this forum to the number of people complaining, they would appear to be in the minority. Therefore, it's not a definite problem with the game, because otherwise it'd be happening to everyone. Coding issues would affect every single gamer. The fact it's only happening to some people indicates it's a problem with the way they are playing the game.


I have had no problems like the ones being described.

Until someone produces a complete list of stats for 1-2 seasons, broken down by shots taken, shots missed target, shots on target, goals scored, who made the shot and where from, and the morale of that player, for between 5-10 different teams in different leagues, then we won't have anything concrete to base any arguments on.

Until that time, it remains opinion, and opinions will be argued with no end result.

As a result, it's a slightly pointless argument.

Post in the bugs forum, and then leave it - wait for SI to either fix any problems, or make the decision that there isn't any, and just get on with playing the game best you can. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What. A. Rubbish. Post.

When things happen too often for you to take notice, you know something is wrong. Who the hell gonna is compile a complete stats to convince people like you who belong to the group 'Oh SI can do no wrong, it must be your tactic!'

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 03:23
Because if they don't, then the fact will remain that any problems are happening to a minority.


If the code was wrong, the problem would appear in everyone's game. It's not. Therefore, the user is doing something to their game to make the problem appear. That's just logic.

johnboy145
24-11-2007, 03:26
I felt the same way for ages about the shot ratio but when you anaylsis the situation a vast majority of shots occur outside the box, and in reality less than half of these chances are converted.

tecni
24-11-2007, 03:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
Because if they don't, then the fact will remain that any problems are happening to a minority.


If the code was wrong, the problem would appear in everyone's game. It's not. Therefore, the user is doing something to their game to make the problem appear. That's just logic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Than perhaps the majority of you tactical genius could tell us how do you tackle each game so that your striker can actually finish properly?

gazzamark
24-11-2007, 03:38
My Newcastle team has no probs scoring, Aguero finished last season with 32 league goals. Sounds like people are griping just cos their tactics or training aren't right.

Tom L
24-11-2007, 03:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tecni:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
Because if they don't, then the fact will remain that any problems are happening to a minority.


If the code was wrong, the problem would appear in everyone's game. It's not. Therefore, the user is doing something to their game to make the problem appear. That's just logic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Than perhaps the majority of you tactical genius could tell us how do you tackle each game so that your striker can actually finish properly? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there is a Subforum for just that, tactic/Training

tecni
24-11-2007, 03:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gazzamark:
My Newcastle team has no probs scoring, Aguero finished last season with 32 league goals. Sounds like people are griping just cos their tactics or training aren't right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There you go. The standard reply from 'SI can do no wrong, it's your tactic'.

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 04:09
Well, some people are having problems. Some are not. The Tactics forum highlights solutions for people having the problem, and there are a number of really good threads about how to get the best out of your team.

So, I would say that being told to visit that forum is a valid and sensible reply.

Dave C
24-11-2007, 04:13
Here's the thing. Both camps are right.
There IS a problem with the game and it IS your tactics too.

As plenty of people have said, it's not a universal problem, it doesn't affect the AI, so the problem is being caused by something you are doing, and it is fixable.

But, that doesn't meant here's no problem.

For me, the basic issue is the lack of interplay in the last third. Players get around the 18 yard box, and they shoot early. There's no attempt to move for a better position, take players on, cut the ball back, pass it etc.
This leads to a lot of shots, and most of them aren't that good (even if you think they look good).

If there was more interplay, more attacks would breakdown, so there'd be fewer shots, but the shots there were would be a little better so the averages would go up in those unrealistic domination scenarios.

I think there are still issues with the match morale stuff, especially the boost keepers get from a few early saves, but it's not the major problem.

Fred_the_Red
24-11-2007, 04:15
OK this thread is exploding now and I am glad I am not the only one with this problem.

Now Ive read all the comments here and open to suggestions. You guys have suggested changing tactics.

Ive took the advice and toned down my instructions.

From right to left (0 - 20)

Mentality is down to normal (10) MCa is 11

Creative freedom is 11

Tempo is 7 (normal)

Now I am still getting a high amount of shots missed.

Now I feel that if I tone down the mentality and CF down further I would basically be playing defensive football or possesion play. Which I dont want I want a United/Chelsea/Arsenal style of play which is attacking.


Now is there anymore suggestions ?

jbrowes
24-11-2007, 04:16
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tecni:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gazzamark:
My Newcastle team has no probs scoring, Aguero finished last season with 32 league goals. Sounds like people are griping just cos their tactics or training aren't right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There you go. The standard reply from 'SI can do no wrong, it's your tactic'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's it exactly. For £25 SI have produced a great game. I have recently adjusted my training schedules and completely altered my tactics which so far have paid dividends. Possibly the only thing that annoys me is that sometimes an obscure opposition goalkeeper plays ten times better than mine (Cech) and makes a series of almost unbelievable saves and wins MOM. BUT, I surpose that's football.

Fred_the_Red
24-11-2007, 04:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tecni:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gazzamark:
My Newcastle team has no probs scoring, Aguero finished last season with 32 league goals. Sounds like people are griping just cos their tactics or training aren't right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There you go. The standard reply from 'SI can do no wrong, it's your tactic'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do agree with you and I dont think people see our point.

The people with this problem are those who have created a tactic that allows players to express themselves in creating chances. Now my tactic can create 30 chances a game but only have 15 on target. Now people have said this is down to the quality of chance. True. But what you guys dont see is the player is outside of the box he has 3 options, 1 to shoot and 1 to play through ball or 1 to pass out wide or to another player. Now what I see in the match engine is more likely 75% of the time he attempts to shoot. Now this happens to midfield players, defensive mids, wingers and attackers. Becuase they shoot from outside of the box or attempt to shoot from positions which results in him not hitting the target the number of shots goes up. Even if the long shots is set on rarely.


Now people have said this is because creative freedom, mentality or tempo is too high. I have toned down these to normal now and I still get the same results. I think the creative freedom, mentality and tempo settings are too senestive in this version. The creative freedon overides the long shots instructions This is why I think and what people have suggested makes players shoot from ridiculars positions. Creative freedom in past version meant how much creativity is involved in creating chances, the higher CF is the higher chance that player will create oppotunities attemp through balls, play balls wide etc. FM08 has made creative freedom to somewhat override team instructions and instead just attempt creative shooting oppotunites and take risky shots, risky passes.

Before patch there were problems with closing down which is why I think players took more shots because they were never closed down. This seems to have been fixed now but I still get attackers shooting from outside of the box. Midfielders seems to have stopped that now.

Dave C
24-11-2007, 04:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
Now my tactic can create 30 chances a game but only have 15 on target. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm, 50% of shots on target is the real-life norm.

Dave C
24-11-2007, 04:46
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
Creative freedom in past version meant how much creativity is involved in creating chances, the higher CF is the higher chance that player will create oppotunities attemp through balls, play balls wide etc. FM08 has made creative freedom to somewhat override team instructions and instead just attempt creative shooting oppotunites and take risky shots, risky passes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Creative Freedom has been "the licence to express himself on the pitch" for several years.

24-11-2007, 04:58
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">HE ****ING PASS IT STRAIGHT AT THE KEEPER. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This actually is a problem.

There needs to be a much wider variety of misses from one-on-one situations. The number of goals scored, on average, is pretty much correct. However, the manner of these misses are not.

There needs to be a lot more examples of shots being hit wide, hit against the post, hit to the side of the keepers but being saved etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been saying this for God knows how long. there is not enough variation in one-on-one situatuions. IF under no pressure from defenders players should round the keeper, if rushing quickly at keeper and he comes out a chip is possible, nutmeging the keeper, etc.....

At the moment its just trying to pass it into the net.

These observations are from fm 07, so im not usre if anythings changed in football manager 2008.

ljdzsgffk
24-11-2007, 05:03
JUst beat Espanyol 3-0, who are ssecond in the Spanish league. I am first in EPL with Man Utd. I completely dominated and had 5 times more chances than them. True midfeilders had a lot of shots but in one of my chances, Rooney had a shot from inside penalty box. He missed but it wasn't that easy. It rebounds to Henri Saivet, who is about a metre away from the far post, it goes to his feet, but instead of shooting it to the corner of the net (which is even easier), he shoots it straight at the goalkeeper. Luckly, Micah Richards, the well-known finisher does what Henri Saivet couldn't do and shoot it in the corner to score.

BigBadBri
24-11-2007, 06:12
How do i get my players to stop taking pot shots and do as they are told?.

I have completely removed long shots and creative freedom from EVERY players instructions, yet they continue to take shots from the most ridiculous angles and distances, which is made more annoying by the fact that there is always a simpler ball to play and they do have through ball instructions?.

T-Bag
24-11-2007, 06:50
I have done some more statistics from my game and I am almost certain this is down to playing against poorer teams and or players to you. Maybe it is the way the AI is trying to prevent stupidily high scores or maybe it is giving too much bias to small teams.

First off, my team is an average side which is over preforming in the league and I believe it is this small team bias effect which is helping me. Lets have a look at the stats over 22 games in the season:

My Stats

57% of all shots attempted are on target. (301 shots, 171 on target)
13% of these shots led to goals - (301 shots, 40 goals)
23% of shots which were on target resulted in a goal (171 shots on target, 40 goals)

AI Stats

55% of all shots attempted are on target (295 shots, 163 on target)
9% of all shots led to goals - (27 goals from 295 shots)
16% of all shots which were on target resulted in a goal (163 shots, 27 goals)

Now the above looks good all round to me, the statistics are similar for the AI as they are for me. I would expect mine to be slightly better as I am up near the top of the league and peforming well.

HOWEVER!!

I have singled out games against "rubbish" teams and lower league teams. These are the teams I should be beating easily and scoring lots of goals against. But this isn't what happens:

My stats (vs rubbish teams)

67% of all shots are on target
6% of all shots led to goals
9% of shots on target led to goals

AI Stats - rubbish teams vs me

51% of all shots are on target
19% of all shots led to goals
36% of all shots on target led to goals

Look at this massive and quite frankly ridiculous difference! 36% of AI rubbish team shots on lead to a goal compared to the normal 16%. This means rubbish teams are almost TWICE as likely to score with the shots they are having, and in addition to this your own teams ability to perform is almost halved !

The reason I think this is relevant is reading over the thread people are throwing around names of world class strikers and finishers. I believe they are experiencing this small team bias because their players and teams are so much better than who they are playing. This was almost identical on FM07 and I complained about it back then but couldn't be bothered to do any stats for it. I will continue tracking these stats over the season to see how they change but I have a fairly large data set now.

I know people are taking of missing easy chances etc but I think this is just the way the match engine is representing the result. We know the match is calculated before you play, so it has decided you are going to be unlucky and lose to a small team but it needs to create some chances that you miss - The problem is it is just creating easy looking chances.

ATW
24-11-2007, 06:54
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">JUst beat Espanyol 3-0, who are ssecond in the Spanish league. I am first in EPL with Man Utd. I completely dominated and had 5 times more chances than them. True midfeilders had a lot of shots but in one of my chances, Rooney had a shot from inside penalty box. He missed but it wasn't that easy. It rebounds to Henri Saivet, who is about a metre away from the far post, it goes to his feet, but instead of shooting it to the corner of the net (which is even easier), he shoots it straight at the goalkeeper. Luckly, Micah Richards, the well-known finisher does what Henri Saivet couldn't do and shoot it in the corner to score. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You know I went to a game on Saturday you may have heard of the match taking place, where a player who had scored one of the goals of the tournament a month before in the same stadium (opposite goal) was 5 yards out, with the goal at his mercy, but all he could do was shoot right at the keeper, lucky the keeper could not hold on and the captain managed to bundle it in.

So the point?

Tom L
24-11-2007, 06:57
Probably gonna get shot down for this one time occurance example but did anyone see what Torres did today?

ArseneFM
24-11-2007, 06:59
1. Surely your team has won at least once against the run of play....and I dont see you complaining about that?

2. Remember West Brom has drawn a match against Man City 1-1 even they have no shot (on or off target) in the entire match? that wasnt that long ago

3. football is a game and it is a cruel game

4. When I was managing England, I frequently watch the AI vs AI games, more than you do I believe, and I also see frequently that a team dominated and failed to win......

5. So please stop making new, pointless threads like the one you did

This field intentionally left blank
24-11-2007, 07:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Probably gonna get shot down for this one time occurance example but did anyone see what Torres did today? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't see it but the audio commentary had him missing a bunch of sitters including several 1-in-1s.

I think what people are troubled by is not a 1 or 2 off performance like this, but a perpetual pattern where, say, Torres would always miss sitters and 1-on-1s.

ArseneFM
24-11-2007, 07:23
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I didn't see it but the audio commentary had him missing a bunch of sitters including several 1-in-1s.

I think what people are troubled by is not a 1 or 2 off performance like this, but a perpetual pattern where, say, Torres would always miss sitters and 1-on-1s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, torres does, in fact he scores brillient "hard" goals yet miss easier ones.

So does guys like Forlan.

In fact even a good poacher like Owen missed quite a lot of 1 on 1s......

willc
24-11-2007, 07:25
i dun wanna complain but..

i barely win by 1:0 when i had 34 shots, 16 on target i end up having rely on a wonder strike from someone to barely scrap thru, not too happy

the problem was fixed in the beta patch, but i dunno why scoring is so much harder in the full patch with same players and tactics

i just wonder how can my strikers have composure of 20 when they keep missing or shooting at keepers lol

This field intentionally left blank
24-11-2007, 07:27
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Actually, torres does, in fact he scores brillient "hard" goals yet miss easier ones. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed.

Sioldana
24-11-2007, 08:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feltus:
Agrees with Fred.

Almost every game I have like 3-4 times more shots than my opponent, and I aint winning, thats for sure..

Seem to have this problem only when im playing attacking football with quick tempo..

Anyone else who can confirm the same?

Feltus </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here are my tactics

http://img160.imagevenue.com/loc983/th_22822_Tactics_122_983lo.jpg (http://img160.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=22822_Tactics_122_983lo.jpg)

And this is the result of said tactics

http://img18.imagevenue.com/loc958/th_22827_Missed_Peno_122_958lo.jpg (http://img18.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=22827_Missed_Peno_122_958lo.jpg)

I'm not saying it is a bug, but it IS very frustrating, and the first time I've experienced such a thing in my 10 years playing the game. It has nothing to do with losing, drawing or even winning, I just cannot understand how to rectify it, I'd settle for less shots but actually being able to put them away, I have to agree with the author of this thread.

earmack
24-11-2007, 09:07
K, PAINFUL, I just got ripped apart at home, completely battered, but I won 1-0, my goalkeeper (very good for the championship) got injured in the 3rd minute and I had to bring on my 5th choice keeper (all my keepers are now injured except for him) and he just played the game of his life, he made 10 BRILLIANT saves and then in the 89th minute we scored and won. This was as absurd as anything I've seen in this game, his highest stat is 13 (reflexes BTW) and in his only games before (the season before last in league 1) he averaged 6.6 over 10 games. I'm not pretty sure he got some sort of hidden boost to his stats (the I've got to take my chance here!! boost). Anyway in the next game he came out to clear the ball and kicked it straight at their striker who scored earning him a 5 so normal service was restored.

earmack
24-11-2007, 09:08
<STRIKE>I'm not pretty sure he got some </STRIKE>

I'm NOW pretty sure he got some...

earmack
24-11-2007, 09:13
I wish I had a screenshot of the game I lost on FM07 with Barnet against cheating ******* Norwich in the playoff final of the Championship, I lost 3-0 with them only having 2 shots and only 1 on target and me having 20ish shots. That was the end of my FM07 disc, not for any particular reason just because it would remind me the game/s hate for me and that I was owed that super goalkeeper performance.

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 09:21
I can't keep saying this, but I'll repeat it 1 more time:


- Unless it happens to everyone, it isn't a problem with the coding of the game. As it only happens to some people, it must therefore be a problem with their playing of the game.

- There are a lot of forums on here for people to sort out any problems they have with their tactics, formations, etc. Some solutions have already been posted in the Tactics forum on how to get the best from your team.

- Unless comprehensive statistics are posted from people from at least 2 seasons, detailing the seasons worth of shots on target, shots off target, goals scored, where the shots were taken from, the position of the player shooting, and all relevant game files uploaded to the SI FTP to back up the stats, then both myself, and SI will refuse to consider there is a genuine problem with the game. A member of SI posted on the first page of this thread saying he didn't believe there was a problem, and neither do I, and without stats or some form of proof, then this discussion is largely irrelevant.

GoGa70
24-11-2007, 09:23
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T-Bag:
I have done some more statistics from my game and I am almost certain this is down to playing against poorer teams and or players to you. Maybe it is the way the AI is trying to prevent stupidily high scores or maybe it is giving too much bias to small teams.

First off, my team is an average side which is over preforming in the league and I believe it is this small team bias effect which is helping me. Lets have a look at the stats over 22 games in the season:

My Stats

57% of all shots attempted are on target. (301 shots, 171 on target)
13% of these shots led to goals - (301 shots, 40 goals)
23% of shots which were on target resulted in a goal (171 shots on target, 40 goals)

AI Stats

55% of all shots attempted are on target (295 shots, 163 on target)
9% of all shots led to goals - (27 goals from 295 shots)
16% of all shots which were on target resulted in a goal (163 shots, 27 goals)

Now the above looks good all round to me, the statistics are similar for the AI as they are for me. I would expect mine to be slightly better as I am up near the top of the league and peforming well.

HOWEVER!!

I have singled out games against "rubbish" teams and lower league teams. These are the teams I should be beating easily and scoring lots of goals against. But this isn't what happens:

My stats (vs rubbish teams)

67% of all shots are on target
6% of all shots led to goals
9% of shots on target led to goals

AI Stats - rubbish teams vs me

51% of all shots are on target
19% of all shots led to goals
36% of all shots on target led to goals

Look at this massive and quite frankly ridiculous difference! 36% of AI rubbish team shots on lead to a goal compared to the normal 16%. This means rubbish teams are almost TWICE as likely to score with the shots they are having, and in addition to this your own teams ability to perform is almost halved !

The reason I think this is relevant is reading over the thread people are throwing around names of world class strikers and finishers. I believe they are experiencing this small team bias because their players and teams are so much better than who they are playing. This was almost identical on FM07 and I complained about it back then but couldn't be bothered to do any stats for it. I will continue tracking these stats over the season to see how they change but I have a fairly large data set now.

I know people are taking of missing easy chances etc but I think this is just the way the match engine is representing the result. We know the match is calculated before you play, so it has decided you are going to be unlucky and lose to a small team but it needs to create some chances that you miss - The problem is it is just creating easy looking chances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great analysis mate. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Though this is hardly suprising - SI obviously had to do something to make sure small teams don't lose by ridiculous amounts. Though the fix is obviously too crude.

Daniel Duarte
24-11-2007, 09:26
Damn, i hate ppl who think they know about tactics. "fix your tactics".
IT IS IRREALISTIC THING! 32 shots, 23 on goal and no goals. The players sometime look like a bunch of school players, kids. They shoot at the keeper's hand.
And, our keeper is always inferior. Almost always, the opposite keeper do impossible saves, no mather his stats.

Daniel Duarte
24-11-2007, 09:28
No matter what you say, 'oh, its realistic', 'oh, thats tactics'... THAT DIDNT HAPPEN ON FM07!
IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED!

nukehim47
24-11-2007, 09:32
I have never seen the match engine so bad http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I actually thought the game was pretty good with the beta patch but as what normally happens, new problems are created.

It is very common for me to be having 30 shots per game (which in itself is unrealistic) and more than half on target. Despite all these shots I am only wining by the odd goal which is ridicolous.

Don't tell me it's my tactics because it was working fine in the beta patch.

Don't tell me it's because my team are taking long shots from midfield because most the shots are in fact one on ones with the keeper.

Please can somebody explain why it seems that no conventional goals are scored after the patch!!?? My strikers have about 10 shots each per game (Berbatov, Gyan, Aguero, Huntelaar) and they are pretty easy chances but I am lucky if they put one of them in.

The trouble is the only goals that go in since the patch are complete flukes, it's actually almost impossible to score normal goals.

I really can't beleive how bad it has become, I think I will go back to tbe beta patch.

Daniel Duarte
24-11-2007, 09:40
im starting to think about going to back to the beta patch too.

ArseneFM
24-11-2007, 09:42
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No matter what you say, 'oh, its realistic', 'oh, thats tactics'... THAT DIDNT HAPPEN ON FM07!
IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I LOLed, you didnt play 07 did you?

ArseneFM
24-11-2007, 09:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Don't tell me it's my tactics because it was working fine in the beta patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The trouble is the only goals that go in since the patch are complete flukes, it's actually almost impossible to score normal goals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

your tactic was exploiting a loophole in the beta patch?

and I just beat Bremen 3-0 with Arsenal, all my goals are great team goals.....so how can you say only "fluke goals" goes in?

ljdzsgffk
24-11-2007, 09:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ATW:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">JUst beat Espanyol 3-0, who are ssecond in the Spanish league. I am first in EPL with Man Utd. I completely dominated and had 5 times more chances than them. True midfeilders had a lot of shots but in one of my chances, Rooney had a shot from inside penalty box. He missed but it wasn't that easy. It rebounds to Henri Saivet, who is about a metre away from the far post, it goes to his feet, but instead of shooting it to the corner of the net (which is even easier), he shoots it straight at the goalkeeper. Luckly, Micah Richards, the well-known finisher does what Henri Saivet couldn't do and shoot it in the corner to score. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You know I went to a game on Saturday you may have heard of the match taking place, where a player who had scored one of the goals of the tournament a month before in the same stadium (opposite goal) was 5 yards out, with the goal at his mercy, but all he could do was shoot right at the keeper, lucky the keeper could not hold on and the captain managed to bundle it in.

So the point? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand that you work for SI so you can't say anything bad about them. Pity.

Anyway here is the chance. I have drawn an arrow to show where he shot it its not perfect but the direction was that it would just touch the net on the other side. It would be so much easier to shoot it somewhere else apart from straight at the goalkeeper.

You can see where Richards is (nummer 11), he scored from where he is in the screenshot after the rebound.

Saivet shot (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t10/X-Ter/saivetamazingshot.jpg)

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 09:51
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
I can't keep saying this, but I'll repeat it 1 more time:


- Unless it happens to everyone, it isn't a problem with the coding of the game. As it only happens to some people, it must therefore be a problem with their playing of the game.

- There are a lot of forums on here for people to sort out any problems they have with their tactics, formations, etc. Some solutions have already been posted in the Tactics forum on how to get the best from your team.

- Unless comprehensive statistics are posted from people from at least 2 seasons, detailing the seasons worth of shots on target, shots off target, goals scored, where the shots were taken from, the position of the player shooting, and all relevant game files uploaded to the SI FTP to back up the stats, then both myself, and SI will refuse to consider there is a genuine problem with the game. A member of SI posted on the first page of this thread saying he didn't believe there was a problem, and neither do I, and without stats or some form of proof, then this discussion is largely irrelevant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To all those people who are still saying they have a problem, I can only refer you back to the above.

nukehim47
24-11-2007, 09:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ArseneFM:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Don't tell me it's my tactics because it was working fine in the beta patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The trouble is the only goals that go in since the patch are complete flukes, it's actually almost impossible to score normal goals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

your tactic was exploiting a loophole in the beta patch?

and I just beat Bremen 3-0 with Arsenal, all my goals are great team goals.....so how can you say only "fluke goals" goes in? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
but my tactic still works, we still create good chances, only now we hardly ever score them.

My strikers often get ratings of 5 because they have missed 10 good chances.

I've tried also changing my tactic completely but I still have to put up with many missed easy chances until Lennon comes in and scores with a misplaced cross. We win 1-0 but it should have been closer to 10-0.

Daniel Duarte
24-11-2007, 09:55
Just look at that:
http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ridiculousby4.jpg

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 09:55
Also, the 2D pitch is only a graphical representation of the match. In the screenshot about Saivet above, you can't see exactly how close he is to the post, or how far away he is - he might not have been able to squeeze it in.

It's tough to get precise positioning images using the pitch - it's only meant to be a rough graphical representation of the match.

Also, you don't know say what the players confidence, morale, selfishness rating was, or whether he thought he could reach a player in a better position, his decision making skills are.

Things aren't often as clear as black and white.


Also, I repeat, there cannot be a problem with the game unless the majority experience it. At the moment, there are some people experiencing problems, but not all. The "problem people" still appear to be in the minority so logical reasoning says that they are doing something to promote this "problem".

Daniel Duarte
24-11-2007, 09:55
It's really frustating http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 09:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daniel Duarte:
Just look at that:
http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ridiculousby4.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's nothing wrong with that!

ljdzsgffk
24-11-2007, 10:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
Also, the 2D pitch is only a graphical representation of the match. In the screenshot about Saivet above, you can't see exactly how close he is to the post, or how far away he is - he might not have been able to squeeze it in.

It's tough to get precise positioning images using the pitch - it's only meant to be a rough graphical representation of the match.

Also, you don't know say what the players confidence, morale, selfishness rating was, or whether he thought he could reach a player in a better position, his decision making skills are.

Things aren't often as clear as black and white.


Also, I repeat, there cannot be a problem with the game unless the majority experience it. At the moment, there are some people experiencing problems, but not all. The "problem people" still appear to be in the minority so logical reasoning says that they are doing something to promote this "problem". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I was hoping it was an easier chance but Giovinco had a chance before it rebounded to Saivet and that was pretty easy as well.

The whole teams morale is superb except for O'shea and Tevez who weren't playing.

Overall, there were 4 shots in that move, 2 to strikers and the defender finally scored. Can you imaging how unhappy I would have been if that wasn't a goal. Everybody except Richards hit it straight at the goalkeeper and Rooney is a world class player. He had 7 shots with 5 on target and he scored from his hardest chance!

It is happening to a lot of people, I know it happened to me in 07 and I never said it on the forums, I am sure there are many others who are not posing. Also, it has happened to me in most of my games, strikers missing easy chances has nothing to do with tactics.

Daniel Duarte
24-11-2007, 10:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daniel Duarte:
Just look at that:
http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ridiculousby4.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's nothing wrong with that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, thats cuz i cant record a video of the 7 shots on goal. Aguero was ALONE with the keeper 6 times (like 3 or 2 of them were out, not on the goal), just him and the keeper, Anderson (who was scoring great goals with long shots) sent a strong banana shot to the angle and the keeper did an impossible save, Ronaldo was alone after a corner, hit hard to the keepers hand.
And Aston Villa had 2 chances, and scored in one of them. I got Akinfeev as goalkeeper, and he is fabulous.
Its SO FRUSTATING.

Daniel Duarte
24-11-2007, 10:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daniel Duarte:
Just look at that:
http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ridiculousby4.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's nothing wrong with that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats cuz i cant record a video with the misses.
Aguero was alone 6 or 7 times with the keeper... lost all shots ridiculously. Ronaldo where alone, unmarked, in front of the goal, after a corner and shot a real strong shot, but the keeper got it. Even if it was to the keeper's hand, he wouldnt get it. He was in the box already.
And Anderson, who was scoring great goals with long shots before the patch, tried a strong banana shot, but the keeper made an impossible save.
No fun. Frustrating.

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 10:09
But taking Saviet's position in that screenshot, if he isn't left footed, it might have tricky to squeeze the ball in, and players often rush a pass in the pressure-filled last third of the pitch.

Also, creating good chances has got everything to do with tactics. The pitch may not graphically represent perfectly how close the defenders are to your striker, so he may feel under pressure, and take a snapshot.

He may know that an opposition defender is faster than him, so may shoot from long distances when he possibly could have carried on and got closer.

He may have missed a few one-on-ones in the match so it's easy for him to miss a few more.

There just so many variables, it's impossible to say it's a bug.


The key is to create a good tactic that creates good chances for your strikers, and then combine that with a positive teamtalk, picking players with good morale, and players that can play in a way that hurts the opposition, and then eventually, your team will pick up a lot more wins than losses.

Looking at the Shots on Target v. Goals ratio for your team and the AI team isn't very useful, because if you have 20 Shots on Target, but only 1 goal, then it could be because 19 were from long distance.

It's simply too variable for anyone to say definitively rather it's a bug or not, but as there is only a few (in comparison to the total number of players) experiencing this problem to such an extent, it would imply that some people have managed to get it right and avoid this problem.

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 10:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daniel Duarte:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daniel Duarte:
Just look at that:
http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ridiculousby4.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's nothing wrong with that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats cuz i cant record a video with the misses.
Aguero was alone 6 or 7 times with the keeper... lost all shots ridiculously. Ronaldo where alone, unmarked, in front of the goal, after a corner and shot a real strong shot, but the keeper got it. Even if it was to the keeper's hand, he wouldnt get it. He was in the box already.
And Anderson, who was scoring great goals with long shots before the patch, tried a strong banana shot, but the keeper made an impossible save.
No fun. Frustrating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK. Come back and post again when it happens in EVERY SINGLE match. You can't moan when it happens in just 1 match. Frustrating matches happen all the time - see Man Utd v. Bolton today!

T-Bag
24-11-2007, 10:13
Beneath the people complaining because they lost a game against the run of play I honestly believe there is a genuine issue with the shots/goals ratio that some people are getting.

It doesn't help the creditability of the argument that people keep posting screenshots which don't show anything other than losing a game.

I've got 3/4 season stats recorded so far on a spreadsheet, just finished the season. I'll continue into next season and keep recording them but there isn't really any way to quantify what type of chances are being missed.

It will be interesting to see what happens with me next season. I have just won the PL with a very average team. I expect my team to be much better next season so i'll see what happens when I get some better players in.

nukehim47
24-11-2007, 10:16
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DamianY2J:
The key is to create a good tactic that creates good chances for your strikers, and then combine that with a positive teamtalk, picking players with good morale, and players that can play in a way that hurts the opposition, and then eventually, your team will pick up a lot more wins than losses.QUOTE]
That's the trouble, my tacic is creating good chances, very good ones in fact.

The majority of my shots come from inside the box and a lot are one on ones with the keeper. Morale is superb and always give positive team talks.

sorry guys but before it could have been put down to poor tactic where players take too many long shots but not this time.

Daniel Duarte
24-11-2007, 10:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daniel Duarte:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daniel Duarte:
Just look at that:
http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ridiculousby4.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's nothing wrong with that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damian, since i installed the patch, it happnes EVERY SINGLE MATCH. I lost to valencia at the pernalties, the game was 1x1 and i had about 32 shots on goal. All my midfielders and defenders were rated 8, but my strikers were 6.
And then, another game, another game, another game...
When i installed the patch, i started a game with Barcelona. same thing, loosing goals all the time. And there's no excuses, Henry is class, and so is Messi and Ronaldinho.

Thats cuz i cant record a video with the misses.
Aguero was alone 6 or 7 times with the keeper... lost all shots ridiculously. Ronaldo where alone, unmarked, in front of the goal, after a corner and shot a real strong shot, but the keeper got it. Even if it was to the keeper's hand, he wouldnt get it. He was in the box already.
And Anderson, who was scoring great goals with long shots before the patch, tried a strong banana shot, but the keeper made an impossible save.
No fun. Frustrating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK. Come back and post again when it happens in EVERY SINGLE match. You can't moan when it happens in just 1 match. Frustrating matches happen all the time - see Man Utd v. Bolton today! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Daniel Duarte
24-11-2007, 10:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daniel Duarte:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daniel Duarte:
Just look at that:
http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ridiculousby4.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's nothing wrong with that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats cuz i cant record a video with the misses.
Aguero was alone 6 or 7 times with the keeper... lost all shots ridiculously. Ronaldo where alone, unmarked, in front of the goal, after a corner and shot a real strong shot, but the keeper got it. Even if it was to the keeper's hand, he wouldnt get it. He was in the box already.
And Anderson, who was scoring great goals with long shots before the patch, tried a strong banana shot, but the keeper made an impossible save.
No fun. Frustrating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK. Come back and post again when it happens in EVERY SINGLE match. You can't moan when it happens in just 1 match. Frustrating matches happen all the time - see Man Utd v. Bolton today! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Damian, since i installed the patch, it happnes EVERY SINGLE MATCH. I lost to valencia at the pernalties, the game was 1x1 and i had about 32 shots on goal. All my midfielders and defenders were rated 8, but my strikers were 6.
And then, another game, another game, another game...
When i installed the patch, i started a game with Barcelona. same thing, loosing goals all the time. And there's no excuses, Henry is class, and so is Messi and Ronaldinho.

[b]*ps: sorry about the double post, i made a mistake before, and i hate the fact i cant edit my own posts.

sleeper77
24-11-2007, 10:42
I am in complete agreement with those about the shots to goal ratio problem as it is very obvious. Last night I was bored of watching my Inter Milan team squander chance after chance inside the penalty area, shooting straight to the goalkeeper, miss incredibly easy rebounds and have no idea how to play a corner. The thing is with the very few chances the AI has, its success rate at taking a shot on goal & scoring is much higher than any human team. This issue has to be sorted by balancing things out otherwise it will always be the AI that will have the upper hand no matter if you have the best players or really good tactics. I have used different formations, changed training routines, altered players setting as in creative freedom + attacking mentality etc... and it makes no difference whatsoever, still the same thing over and over. The way things carry on with my team mostly drawing matches and missing way too many chances I will be out of a job at the end of the season. So please SI acknowledge this problem and try to rectify it. I know it is not easy just solving one bug, as three more will come along without properly programming it but this is making the game way too unplayable.

BigBadBri
24-11-2007, 10:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">OK. Come back and post again when it happens in EVERY SINGLE match. You can't moan when it happens in just 1 match. Frustrating matches happen all the time - see Man Utd v. Bolton today! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man Utd only had 1 shot on target today, as did Bolton.

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 10:58
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daniel Duarte:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daniel Duarte:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daniel Duarte:
Just look at that:
http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ridiculousby4.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's nothing wrong with that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats cuz i cant record a video with the misses.
Aguero was alone 6 or 7 times with the keeper... lost all shots ridiculously. Ronaldo where alone, unmarked, in front of the goal, after a corner and shot a real strong shot, but the keeper got it. Even if it was to the keeper's hand, he wouldnt get it. He was in the box already.
And Anderson, who was scoring great goals with long shots before the patch, tried a strong banana shot, but the keeper made an impossible save.
No fun. Frustrating. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK. Come back and post again when it happens in EVERY SINGLE match. You can't moan when it happens in just 1 match. Frustrating matches happen all the time - see Man Utd v. Bolton today! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Damian, since i installed the patch, it happnes EVERY SINGLE MATCH. I lost to valencia at the pernalties, the game was 1x1 and i had about 32 shots on goal. All my midfielders and defenders were rated 8, but my strikers were 6.
And then, another game, another game, another game...
When i installed the patch, i started a game with Barcelona. same thing, loosing goals all the time. And there's no excuses, Henry is class, and so is Messi and Ronaldinho.

[b]*ps: sorry about the double post, i made a mistake before, and i hate the fact i cant edit my own posts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


OK, what we need is a collection of screenshots which together, might highlight a problem. At the moment, all I have to go on is people's opinions, and there's as many saying everything's fine as there is saying there's a problem.

If it genuinely is happening EVERY SINGLE GAME, then please post some screenshots (say 6), which clearly show the date of the game and the basic stats (such as On Target, Goals Scored, etc), so we can see what a common pattern is emerging in EVERY SINGLE and CONSECUTIVE games.


Then, if you could write next to each screenshot how many of the shots on target were from the 12 yard box.


Is that something you can do, as it might help to highlight the problem in a better way than anyone else has done so far.

tecni
24-11-2007, 11:00
The SI fanboys are as much of a joke as SI itself.

'It's your tactic' Yay what's wrong with our tactic? Contra to all those SI fanboys comment, our tactic should actually be consider as more than good enough tactics. A tactics which let us create so many chances in most matches which in turn let us see this ridiculous bug of strikers missing easy chances, if not passing it straight into the keepers arm with no placing or power.

Dissing our problem and said go compile a 2 season complete stats on shot taken, on target, off target, from where bla bla was just you lot taking the easy way out because no one in their sane mind would do that to convince brainwash fools like you. I wonder if the vast majority of these guys are just SI coders making a ordinary account to back themselves up when things go wrong and post threads like 'the official SI appreciation thread'. The foolishness of you fanboys make me cringe.

Sioldana
24-11-2007, 11:05
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
But taking Saviet's position in that screenshot, if he isn't left footed, it might have tricky to squeeze the ball in, and players often rush a pass in the pressure-filled last third of the pitch.

Also, creating good chances has got everything to do with tactics. The pitch may not graphically represent perfectly how close the defenders are to your striker, so he may feel under pressure, and take a snapshot.

He may know that an opposition defender is faster than him, so may shoot from long distances when he possibly could have carried on and got closer.

He may have missed a few one-on-ones in the match so it's easy for him to miss a few more.

There just so many variables, it's impossible to say it's a bug.


The key is to create a good tactic that creates good chances for your strikers, and then combine that with a positive teamtalk, picking players with good morale, and players that can play in a way that hurts the opposition, and then eventually, your team will pick up a lot more wins than losses.

Looking at the Shots on Target v. Goals ratio for your team and the AI team isn't very useful, because if you have 20 Shots on Target, but only 1 goal, then it could be because 19 were from long distance.

It's simply too variable for anyone to say definitively rather it's a bug or not, but as there is only a few (in comparison to the total number of players) experiencing this problem to such an extent, it would imply that some people have managed to get it right and avoid this problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Firstly your implication that any player who experience's this "bug/problem" would come online and report said problem is erroneous

Secondly, players may be experiencing said "bug/problem" and yet are still winning games so may not see it as a "bug/problem" and therefore refrain from reporting/complaining

Thirdly players may be experiencing this issue and not even realizing it, some people don't watch the 2D engine, some don't look at the match stats (I didn't until recently)

Fourthly the argument that the problem is a tactical one is not wholly reasonable, what tactic changes the behavior of a striker when he is one on one with a goalkeeper, surely this is an algorithm based on attributes?

In the end perhaps the game is veering into too much tactical depth and for some this is more enjoyable, and for others less so, perhaps what we are witnessing is the start of a split in the FM community!, I for one will be looking for a download of the beta patch, missed penalty's and all, because it was more FUN, is that not what a game is about, FUN?

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 11:11
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tecni:
The SI fanboys are as much of a joke as SI itself.

'It's your tactic' Yay what's wrong with our tactic? Contra to all those SI fanboys comment, our tactic should actually be consider as more than good enough tactics. A tactics which let us create so many chances in most matches which in turn let us see this ridiculous bug of strikers missing easy chances, if not passing it straight into the keepers arm with no placing or power.

Dissing our problem and said go compile a 2 season complete stats on shot taken, on target, off target, from where bla bla was just you lot taking the easy way out because no one in their sane mind would do that to convince brainwash fools like you. I wonder if the vast majority of these guys are just SI coders making a ordinary account to back themselves up when things go wrong and post threads like 'the official SI appreciation thread'. The foolishness of you fanboys make me cringe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If people aren't prepared to substantiate their claims of a problem, then how do you expect SI to recognise it and fix it?

If you like think SI will read a thread where some people say "problem" and others give possible reasons for the problems, and decide to fix something that may or may not exist, then you're wrong.

SI need people to provide them with some numbers and something to go on, otherwise how can they fix it?


For all those complaining, go and take some screenshots from your saved games, and try and provide all the information possible (see one of my posts above for relevant information that would help), and then SI might be in a position to reply to you.

Pipo2525
24-11-2007, 11:14
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nukehim47:
I have never seen the match engine so bad http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I actually thought the game was pretty good with the beta patch but as what normally happens, new problems are created.

It is very common for me to be having 30 shots per game (which in itself is unrealistic) and more than half on target. Despite all these shots I am only wining by the odd goal which is ridicolous.

Don't tell me it's my tactics because it was working fine in the beta patch.

Don't tell me it's because my team are taking long shots from midfield because most the shots are in fact one on ones with the keeper.

Please can somebody explain why it seems that no conventional goals are scored after the patch!!?? My strikers have about 10 shots each per game (Berbatov, Gyan, Aguero, Huntelaar) and they are pretty easy chances but I am lucky if they put one of them in.

The trouble is the only goals that go in since the patch are complete flukes, it's actually almost impossible to score normal goals.

I really can't beleive how bad it has become, I think I will go back to tbe beta patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am averaging 30 Shots (per game) on goal with Man Utd and scored 10 goals in 6 league games. As you say not very realistic. Anyhow until this has been fixed i am going back to FM 2007.

UELLfan
24-11-2007, 11:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pipo2525:
I am averaging 30 Shots (per game) on goal with Man Utd and scored 10 goals in 6 league games. As you say not very realistic. Anyhow until this has been fixed i am going back to FM 2007. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might as well wait until the automatic 'win next match' button has been implemented as well.

10 matches and you give up?

\o/

Talk about perseverance and endurance.

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 11:26
Again, you don't mention where the shots are coming from. You can't just look at the stats at the end of a game and not put them into context.

Also, I can't reply with a proper counter-argument until someone presents me with some facts and stats to make an argument in the first place.

Pipo2525
24-11-2007, 11:27
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UELLfan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pipo2525:
I am averaging 30 Shots (per game) on goal with Man Utd and scored 10 goals in 6 league games. As you say not very realistic. Anyhow until this has been fixed i am going back to FM 2007. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might as well wait until the automatic 'win next match' button has been implemented as well.

10 matches and you give up?

\o/

Talk about perseverance and endurance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm actually unbeaten!!! It' the 30 shots per game that has me stearing at the screen in disbelief.

tecni
24-11-2007, 11:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tecni:
The SI fanboys are as much of a joke as SI itself.

'It's your tactic' Yay what's wrong with our tactic? Contra to all those SI fanboys comment, our tactic should actually be consider as more than good enough tactics. A tactics which let us create so many chances in most matches which in turn let us see this ridiculous bug of strikers missing easy chances, if not passing it straight into the keepers arm with no placing or power.

Dissing our problem and said go compile a 2 season complete stats on shot taken, on target, off target, from where bla bla was just you lot taking the easy way out because no one in their sane mind would do that to convince brainwash fools like you. I wonder if the vast majority of these guys are just SI coders making a ordinary account to back themselves up when things go wrong and post threads like 'the official SI appreciation thread'. The foolishness of you fanboys make me cringe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If people aren't prepared to substantiate their claims of a problem, then how do you expect SI to recognise it and fix it?

If you like think SI will read a thread where some people say "problem" and others give possible reasons for the problems, and decide to fix something that may or may not exist, then you're wrong.

SI need people to provide them with some numbers and something to go on, otherwise how can they fix it?


For all those complaining, go and take some screenshots from your saved games, and try and provide all the information possible (see one of my posts above for relevant information that would help), and then SI might be in a position to reply to you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watch the games. Just watch the matches and forget about all the stats for a moment. We would still be incensed even if we only had 5 shots and all are off target throughout the whole match, but all 5 are real chances, clean through on goal, one-on-one. The players pass it straight to the opposition keeper's arm gently. And that is what is happening, our tactic is good, there's nothing wrong with a tactic that creates that much chances for you. It's the finishing part, SI have somewhere screw this part up like they have with the closing down in the full unpatch game.

tecni
24-11-2007, 11:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
Again, you don't mention where the shots are coming from. You can't just look at the stats at the end of a game and not put them into context.

Also, I can't reply with a proper counter-argument until someone presents me with some facts and stats to make an argument in the first place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are many facts little throughout the forum with numerous threads like this, go on just ignore them. But if you are asking for ridiculous complete range of stats for 2 seasons than I suggest you think of a better excuses for SI failure yet again to make a proper working logical game.

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 11:34
It is perfectly possible for the same player to miss 3-4 one on ones in a match. If the same player is missing 10 one on ones, then there's a problem. If he is missing 10 one on ones per game for 5 straight games, then there is a major problem.


No-one has yet posted any screenshots showing the SAME player missing more than 2-3 one on ones in the same match, for 2-3 matches in a row.

DamianY2J
24-11-2007, 11:36
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tecni:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
Again, you don't mention where the shots are coming from. You can't just look at the stats at the end of a game and not put them into context.

Also, I can't reply with a proper counter-argument until someone presents me with some facts and stats to make an argument in the first place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are many facts little throughout the forum with numerous threads like this, go on just ignore them. But if you are asking for ridiculous complete range of stats for 2 seasons than I suggest you think of a better excuses for SI failure yet again to make a proper working logical game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I asked for 2 seasons worth because if I only asked for 1 season, then your team could have just been having a poor season, perhaps after a recent promotion.

Also, I haven't seen any comprehensive facts put forward which supports any argument, pro-SI or against-SI.

All I've heard is opinion.

tecni
24-11-2007, 12:07
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
It is perfectly possible for the same player to miss 3-4 one on ones in a match. If the same player is missing 10 one on ones, then there's a problem. If he is missing 10 one on ones per game for 5 straight games, then there is a major problem.


No-one has yet posted any screenshots showing the SAME player missing more than 2-3 one on ones in the same match, for 2-3 matches in a row. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Only after missing 10 one-on-one for 5 matches than you would consider it a problem? Discussion is over than. You're unable to make reason with.

If someone did show you that, you would go on 'your tempo is wrong, you mentality is wrong, now show me 20 one-on-one misses for 10 matches in a row..'

You said you haven't seen any comprehensive facts put forward which supports any argument, but it's clear you are quick to dismiss the against-SI camp.

tubbycrabs
24-11-2007, 12:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
It is perfectly possible for the same player to miss 3-4 one on ones in a match. If the same player is missing 10 one on ones, then there's a problem. If he is missing 10 one on ones per game for 5 straight games, then there is a major problem.


No-one has yet posted any screenshots showing the SAME player missing more than 2-3 one on ones in the same match, for 2-3 matches in a row. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please tell me the last time a top quality striker missed 3 one on one chances with goalkeepers 5 straight matches in a row.

It doesn't happen.

T-Bag
24-11-2007, 12:08
Well i've got 30+ games worth of stats now.

I'll have another season in next couple of days.

nukehim47
24-11-2007, 12:28
it is happening to me every game.

Here is one example, may post more tommorow if I can be bothered:

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9620/kievmatchstatsjk8.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4877/kievplayerstatsbc0.jpg

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1300/kievgoodchancesdi9.jpg

As you can see Gyan in particular missed a lot of chances, and good ones at that. This wasn't a one if, it is happening every game.

ATW
24-11-2007, 12:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I understand that you work for SI so you can't say anything bad about them. Pity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not "work" for SI. They do not pay my bills every month, nor do they feed my family. I have been highly critical of SI in the past especially with the following:-

International Football
The Youth Strcuture
The power managers have is far to much
Scottish Data (something I do work on) compared to other Nations
Transfer Fees*
Last years Scottish Stadium Bug
Queen's Park debt problem

But as a fan of a club, that this season in every game they have either lost or failed to win (with the exception of Celtic away) so 6 of the 14 games have absolutely dominated the opposition for long period of the game I see this as part of football.

The problem is the 2d match engine does not give a good picture of other things, like how sweet the shot was struck etc

Tony Dolby
24-11-2007, 13:02
I am fairly new to this game but the new patch has made some aspects of the game much better, but I think there is still work to be done.

I started a new game with this new patch and I have tried to follow the same tactics/bring in the same players as in my previous game.

Managing in League 2 with Macclesfield, one can obviously not afford top quality strikers, but I have succeded in borrowing some fairly decent young strikers.

The problem seems to be that too many good chances are spurned when on the beta patch they were neatly slotted away. This is with the same striker. I can't do screenshots, but one formerly deadly striker missed 6 one on ones in one game. This is against a goalie with low single figure scores in positioning, reflexes and one on ones.
The striker's finishing and composure are I think, 14 and 12. This is quite high for a Div 2 striker. I would expect him to miss 1 in 3 or even 1 in 4 of those kind of chances with the beta patch.

This now happens on a regular basis.

On the flip side, oppostion strikers, seem to be afficted but not to the same extent. I have the best goalie I can borrow, and this allows me to field a sort of 4 2 4 formation home and away. If I can then manage 10 or more point blank or one on one chances in a game I can normally sneak a 1-0.

I am not an expert, but the opposition keepers in Div 2 seem to play at an almost Gordon Banks level, which far exceeds their statistics. Many of them only have double figures in three or four goalkeeping attributes.

On the whole, the patch is a curate's egg. Good in parts.

Fred_the_Red
24-11-2007, 13:20
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:

OK, what we need is a collection of screenshots which together, might highlight a problem. At the moment, all I have to go on is people's opinions, and there's as many saying everything's fine as there is saying there's a problem.

If it genuinely is happening EVERY SINGLE GAME, then please post some screenshots (say 6), which clearly show the date of the game and the basic stats (such as On Target, Goals Scored, etc), so we can see what a common pattern is emerging in EVERY SINGLE and CONSECUTIVE games.


Then, if you could write next to each screenshot how many of the shots on target were from the 12 yard box.


Is that something you can do, as it might help to highlight the problem in a better way than anyone else has done so far. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please refer to the first post of the page. I provided more then 20 games for you guys to look at so have other people. Ive linked threads upon threads of others peoples posts. I honest dont know what you want. A whole season? I mean it would take me hours and hours to screen shot a whole season I thought over 20 games is enough to go by.

Oh **** it here are all the screens I taken.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3343/asadadadqs4.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6581/666666666iu7.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1200/wqeqweqeqeqy8.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2195/2055793872_64997cb5fb.jpg?v=0
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3343/asadadadqs4.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6581/666666666iu7.jpg
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2442/66735943ps8.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8476/aaaaaaaaaaqt2.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8014/00tp2.png

All you can say its my tactic. Well i have toned down the men (11), tempo (7) and creative freedom (10) and it is still happening.

What else do you want me to do?

FlaSk4o
24-11-2007, 13:59
Fred_the_Red, this problem really exists and If someone cant see it in his game, it means that he just cant make a good tactic to create enough chances. I'm gettin tired of this game. I cant imagin that I'm gonna say it, but it is November and my passion has already gone ..

anth
24-11-2007, 14:01
Has anyone actually uploaded any save games yet? I'd love to have a look at a few, let someone independent check it out. I'm managing Inter in 2011 and have Fabregas, Messi, Ronaldo and Vicente creating chances for Aguero up front and i'm getting the same "problem" in some games. But there's also games where i've had 15 shots on goal to the opposition's 13 and won 4-0! The problem, if there is one, isn't some magical bias against the user, it's too many chances overall in games.

Fred_the_Red
24-11-2007, 14:13
I have to be honest since toning down the men, tempo and creative freedom I am scoring more goals. I dont know if this is due to players taking their time and slotting them in. I am still creating over 20 chances but converting more in tho. 95% of my games Im scoring 3 or 4 goals. So toning down those factos do help.

Ackter
24-11-2007, 14:20
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
I have to be honest since toning down the men, tempo and creative freedom I am scoring more goals. I dont know if this is due to players taking their time and slotting them in. I am still creating over 20 chances but converting more in tho. 95% of my games Im scoring 3 or 4 goals. So toning down those factos do help. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It'll be down to players waiting for better chances before attacking goal. More thought will be put into passes, positioning etc and it leads to better conversion ratios.

FlaSk4o
24-11-2007, 14:20
Fred, please give a screenshot from your tactic. I wanna c where you have put creativity and tempo. Thanks http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tony Dolby
24-11-2007, 14:22
I don't know about bias, but something has changed dramatically with the new patch.

In some ways it is great because I haven't had any 40 yard scorchers scored by the opposition CB with a long shot rating of 3! One or two a season maybe but not one every other game.

On the other hand, the situation with one on ones and Gordon Banks goalies is a little over the top. Most real life Div 2 goalies and certainly the ones in this game would, I imagine be beaten more often than not by a Premiership reserve striker. This is not happening with the new patch.

On the beta patch, I was scoring 3 out of 4 of these chances. Now it is more like 1 out of 5 or even 6. With Div2 keepers and fairly good strikers I reckon 2 out of 3 would be a good ratio.

Thes are real one on one chances, with no defenders in hot pursuit.

Fred_the_Red
24-11-2007, 14:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FlaSk4o:
Fred, please give a screenshot from your tactic. I wanna c where you have put creativity and tempo. Thanks http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7850/323242424tr8.jpg

Here. I still see shots where they miss sitters and a couple of wonder goals from outside of the box but not as much as before. I dont think I can tone it down any further tho.

If mentality and creative freedom needs to be that much further down inorder for players not to make stupid shots then I dont really see how you can play with higher creative freedom. I think the instructions this year are more senitive then before.

FlaSk4o
24-11-2007, 14:59
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
I think the instructions this year are more senitive then before. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Totally agree with you, but with so little cr. freedom and normal mentality, my team doesnt play the style I like most http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

Caesarius
24-11-2007, 15:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
It is perfectly possible for the same player to miss 3-4 one on ones in a match. If the same player is missing 10 one on ones, then there's a problem. If he is missing 10 one on ones per game for 5 straight games, then there is a major problem.


No-one has yet posted any screenshots showing the SAME player missing more than 2-3 one on ones in the same match, for 2-3 matches in a row. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you know why? Cause this player is now on the bench or playing reserves.

totti_is_god
24-11-2007, 15:58
I was sceptical about this problem until I played a little further into the game. In fact, some of the matches that I have had the misfortune of witnessing make me pine for the days when commentary and stats were all a player had for help - a situation I, for one, was never unhappy with.

JordanC
24-11-2007, 17:06
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
Again, you don't mention where the shots are coming from. You can't just look at the stats at the end of a game and not put them into context.

Also, I can't reply with a proper counter-argument until someone presents me with some facts and stats to make an argument in the first place. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damian, I've virtually stopped arguing with the neanderthals here about this subject. It would probably be best if you did the same so you can keep your sanity.

My favorite laugh was when someone posted a tactic screenshot and it's just their team instructions. I couldn't imagine playing with just global settings and what that would look like having 11 players all doing the same thing. Then they claim "it's not my tactic!"

BTW, In my past 2 seasons as Liverpool, I only had one match with more than 30 SOG and I won 13-0 (over Wrexham in a friendly but hey). My average is 13SOG/9SOT and 2.2 goals a game. 85% of my goals are from strikers inside the box and they convert cummulatively a 3.5-1 ratio. (Torres/Kuyt go on streaks of form +/- but Voronin/Crouch score about 40% their SOT). I have TWELVE tactical variations with PLAYER-SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS and even then I tweak them for every single match depending on my exact squad matchup.

I don't work for SI. I've been playing this game in total for 3 months (FM07 & 08) and have never played CM or anything prior to this. I had the SAME EXACT PROBLEMS as everyone else moaning here when I started playing for the first time. I read everything I could possibly read about building tactics and FILLED A NOTEBOOK with instructions, match/player stats, AI tendencies, printed out blank scouting forms to fill in prior to any match showing my opponent's starting squad stats, etc.

After doing all of this work. I HAVE NO MORE PROBLEMS WITH SOG RATIO. Everything seems to work correctly and realistically to me, even when I lose. Once or twice a season there might be a ridiculous anomaly, but that's football.

As DamianY2J stated, if we all have the same coded game and the same coded patch, how come I don't experience this and you do. Very simple logic. Regardless of preconceptions, what worked before, stats of your players, etc, it must be something YOU are doing differently.

Should you have to do thesis research to acheive game balance? Although I've enjoyed working out the challenge, I would have to AGREE that the game is too tactically complicated and not plug & play enough. See, I AGREE WITH THIS!!!

In that case, it's not a bug in the game!

earmack
24-11-2007, 17:32
Look lots of SI supporters are telling us what we see (10 shots one on one) is unimportant because thats not representative of whats going on, will someone from SI actually talk to us about this (and not just say no there isn't a long shot bug because no one gives a **** about that at this point). I for one want to know what SI have to say about whether the match we see is representative of whats going on (is creating 10 good chances and missing indicative of having a good tactic or a bad one?). This is a huge issue and no one from SI has given a view yet, thanks to all those trying to 'help' but you don't KNOW any better than we do.

So SI, are we creating 10 one on ones and not scoring because our tactic is bad? Simple question, simple answer.

earmack
24-11-2007, 17:42
Most people don't complain for the sake of it, they complain because they are having problems,on this thread at least 100 different people are having basically the same problem, SI could earn some friends by just taking the time to try and help us understand. I know SI don't look in this forum often (which in my opinion is plain stupid) and I also know that many people think SI are saints for ever talking to consumers on these forums, but the fact is these topics are where the big issues are raised, are you satisfying your customers? Is the game fun? Is a there a balance issue? Does the game provide enough feed back? and on and on and on. We get angry because we all love football and want to play a game where we get to live the dream, the fact that your game inspires such hate (and love) should fill you with joy (if only at the thought of all the money) and you should take care to appear to be understanding to people issues, its not often on this forum that comes across and I think thats to your detriment.

hyperion666
24-11-2007, 18:55
As far as I am concerned If I tell my players to..

Play through balls often
Low creativity
Low long shots

I should not have a defensive midfielder smacking them from 30 yards each time he can no? I suppose it is my tactic eh? If it is not a bug you made a crap game tbh, because even if no options are available up front they should pass sideways and continue the build up.

Also fanboys, did you know that your tempo sliders and width slider should mean jack if you have a striker with a 1on1 chance to score, or a good chance? It comes down to player skills, and therefore my striker, Villa should score some of them. Just like it is not SAFs fault that Tevez missed an open goal, or could poor old tevez not control it properly because SAF had them playing too fast?

It is clear there is a problem, it is a problem either with the game or with people not understanding WHAT to do to fix this problem, why it happens, do the people who have working tactics know WHY they work? I bet one of my many failed tactics looked very similar, yet did not work anywhere near as well as yours.

I sit and watch 30 shots and the opponents score 2 on target, and wonder why it never happens to me, why do I not have 20 shots against my goal and score my only 2 chances of the game, ok it would not happen against a small team, but it could happen against a top side in the CL.

I have no passion for this game left tbh, I see tactical 'experts' telling all about how the can play but they only worked it out after trial and error non stop, these solutions make no sense at all either, I am making my team play slowly I have this formation set up well, but for some reason I go through a scheduled December slump every year. And the AI is always working out how to stop my world class players in season 2.

So besides being constantly frustrated I have paid 35 quid for a glorified data update, which the devs did not even bother to bug test it seems, because otherwise they would have spotted the glaring issues on release, and then get the acceptable version in a patch a month later when the game is now far cheaper. Should have atleast been paid for doing bug testing for SI.

vivilion
24-11-2007, 19:02
I hope my analysis about the match engine here can help those people with problem. I have posted in another thread, and I will quote the part why your striker keep missing when you are dominating a game.

Also, it's AI, not real world, although it tries to simulate real world, but no AI is 100% realistic. Analyze how AI works and think of tactics to beat it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Like I have said before, most people who have this problem is when they are donimating a game, usually with opponent's defenders defending deep. In this case of situation, even if you have a good, and seems to be a quality chance, you probably will miss, or you shoot it to the goalie or to his fingertip. Sometimes you have a striker with 20/20 finishing/composure and wonder why you keep missing in this situation.

The quality of the shot is heavily affected in this kind of situation, in another words, your striker's composure is affected by the surrounding defenders. The match engine is designed so that, when a striker shoots, every opponent within his 6 yard perimeter will affect his composure. 6 yard is just an approximate. No matter where the defenders stand, even if they are all standing behind the strikers, the AI would take those defenders into calculation for the composure for the striker, hence the quality of the shot.

The people who have this issue, think everytime when your stiker shoots, how many defenders are actually 6 yards within your stikers. More often than not, you have 3, not including the goalie. And that is exactly why your goals/shot on target ratio becomes very low.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hyperion666
24-11-2007, 19:03
Oh and this made me laugh.

JordanC:'I FILLED A NOTEBOOK WITH INSTRUCTION, MATCH/PLAYER STATS, AI TENDENCIES ETC ETC'

You see, SI that is the problem with your game. JordanC before you call people names using words which you think will make you sound clever realise that not everyone has the time and or is sad enough (seeing as you decided to insult normal people in this thread), to do what you did to solve the problem.

Oh and brains, you have no more SOG ratio problem, so you acknowledge there is a problem? I am quoting you here, because you were replying to someone who says he needs statistical proof (wtf btw?), which is a bit contradictory.

We clearly have you saying a SOG ratio exists, a in order to fix it you need to research and fill notebooks, which is why we have one ****ed up...'game'.

JordanC
24-11-2007, 20:48
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hyperion666:
You see, SI that is the problem with your game. JordanC before you call people names using words which you think will make you sound clever realise that not everyone has the time and or is sad enough (seeing as you decided to insult normal people in this thread), to do what you did to solve the problem.

We clearly have you saying a SOG ratio exists, a in order to fix it you need to research and fill notebooks, which is why we have one ****ed up...'game'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, what was the last part of my post? Let me repeat it:

------------------
Should you have to do thesis research to acheive game balance? Although I've enjoyed working out the challenge, I would have to AGREE that the game is too tactically complicated and not plug & play enough. See, I AGREE WITH THIS!!!
-------------------

I assume SI knows the intricacies of their own match engine and can test it thoroughly. If they have found no problems and others haven't either, obviously they have a further understanding of the nuances of the gameplay. Based on their experiences, the match engine works adequately.

The game is very difficult and there aren't really any plug & play solutions. The tips suggested for controlling your SOG ailments are typically correct but extremely broad. This is because every team & opponent is made up of different players, morale levels, etc. and it's very important to realize this before you breeze through the game.

Here's one of those tips that was touched upon a little:

Strikers tend to be very streaky and morale-driven regardless of their ratings. Once they start doing well, they will go on a run of being virtually unstoppable. Once they start doing poorly, it snowballs into despair. In my 4-4-2 style formations, I tend to rotate 4 strikers game to game depending on their form & morale. If a ST is struggling a bit, I try to tone down his role that game and only supply him with balls that will have a high success rate (usually direct passes into wide space). If he underperforms even then, I sub him even if he's the best damn striker on the continent. I may sit him out for 2-3 games as well or go with a 1 ST tactic. Keeping a struggling attacker in a main role, although eventually getting out of his slump, usually turns out to be a debacle of missed chances. I usually have struggling strikers sometimes playing a free role up top with little CD so they have freedom and less pressure to deal with.

In addition, if all your strikers seem to be doing horribly, then the tactic you are using isn't utilizing them properly. Example: having a poor jump/heading but pacey ST set to be a deeper target man for passes. After losing 5-6 headers that he clearly can't handle, his morale & rating will plummet which will make he more ineffective even in another role. Also realize that if you have a primary AMC playmaker type that is the center of your attack and HE is performing poorly, it tends to resonate to everyone else since they aren't being fed balls well and having to chase out of position on attack.

Like I said before, the game is VERY difficult and you cannot plug and play. It's not a bug in the game.

(and I'll repeat yet again, I'm not arguing the fact that you shouldn't have to do all this work to succeed. We're debating a programming flaw based on a match engine tested by users who have exemplary gameplay knowledge. Maybe SI would benefit by having more casual players test their game? That's a constructive idea.)

Myros
24-11-2007, 20:58
So here is what IMO is going on here -

World class defenders are not scaling as well as world class attackers.

It has been mentioned before that almost everyone complaining of this issue is using teams that contain world class players. Myself Ive been playing using lower league teams and after 2 seasons now Ive just not seen this issue. I can count on one hand the amount of games Ive seen where shots gets near 30 per game, and they are almost always cup games where Im playing a team of a lower standard.

I see shots per game in the 7 - 15 range almost every game ... for both my team and the AI. Thats even with trying different tactics etc The shots/goals ratio do seem to increase when playing a fast attacking tactic but not to the extreme range talked about here.

So tactics DO seem to affect this issue but its not the whole story IMO. I think, as mentioned above, there is a coded imbalance in the way the defenders prevent things like attacking runs etc that in lower league teams is very obvious where as playing with the better teams starts to break down.

M

sirdez24
24-11-2007, 22:13
I've gone back to beta - still buggy as hell, but at least I am rewarded for creating point blank chances.

tecni
24-11-2007, 22:40
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hyperion666:
Oh and this made me laugh.

JordanC:'I FILLED A NOTEBOOK WITH INSTRUCTION, MATCH/PLAYER STATS, AI TENDENCIES ETC ETC'

You see, SI that is the problem with your game. JordanC before you call people names using words which you think will make you sound clever realise that not everyone has the time and or is sad enough (seeing as you decided to insult normal people in this thread), to do what you did to solve the problem.

Oh and brains, you have no more SOG ratio problem, so you acknowledge there is a problem? I am quoting you here, because you were replying to someone who says he needs statistical proof (wtf btw?), which is a bit contradictory.

We clearly have you saying a SOG ratio exists, a in order to fix it you need to research and fill notebooks, which is why we have one ****ed up...'game'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

QFT.

The user is at such a disadvantage compare to the AI manager or even your own ass man. The AI manager knows what exactly does creative freedom stands for and what does it affect during matches whereas the users knows nuts about it. The mentality, width, tempo, at which notch of the sliders does it do what?

I read the tactic and training forum and all they have there is theory which is neither confirm nor reject by SI. This is unacceptable, what's the difference between closing down own area at first notch or at second notch, nobody can give a conclusive answer. Than in the game we can't test the tactic during training, hence we have to pay for the testing of our tactic with potential lost of points during competitive matches.

If SI believes the only way their game should be play is spending weeks reading all the endless theories and having notebooks to copy down tactics point, AI tendencies, PRINT OUT BLANK SCOUTING FORM TO FILL IN( This takes the cake totally) than I suggest you put a huge disclaim on the packaging of the game, 'ONLY FOR SAD PEOPLE WHO ASPIRE TO BE A TACTICAL GENIUS BUT CAN'T GET A REAL LIFE MANAGEMENT JOB'.

If I have to do all that about for a freaking GAME I might as well apply to be a real manager, at least I can really use my salary unlike in FM.

Before anyone said its' for the sake of realism, there has to be a balance between realism and a enjoyable gameplay process. There are a lot more little things SI should get down and fix to achieve realism than spending more times to make the tactical parts more complicated and coding intentional bugs.

Fred_the_Red
25-11-2007, 02:18
For those people who have no problem with shots to goal ration I would like them to screenshot me some examples of their shots/goal ration stats. Dont be picking out games that are show no tread. A batch of 10 or so should do.

As I have already said I have toned down my tactic now which does give me better conversion rate. But I still see a high number of shots. Why is that?

Fred_the_Red
25-11-2007, 02:25
One think I would like to know is what creative freedom does exactly. As I have always understood it is how creative a person is on the field how they create scoring chances.

In this game it seems to suggest how much creative flair they use in trying to score goals from impossible angles or impossible situations example shooting from edge of the area, trying too hard to score easy goals, missing easy sitters because it wants to be flashy and chip the keeper instead of passing wide, playing through ball, passing back, building play up.

On one and one situations I dont think I have ever seen a player try to go round the keeper, or shoot at corners. Instead he likes to shoot straight at the keeper maikng keepers save them.

nukehim47
25-11-2007, 02:44
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
On one and one situations I dont think I have ever seen a player try to go round the keeper, or shoot at corners. Instead he likes to shoot straight at the keeper maikng keepers save them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
yes exactly, that is the main problem.

we are having up to 10 of these situations per game and they very very rarely go in.

The only time they seem to go in is if it rebounds of the keeper and either the original striker puts it in or another player runs in because thankfully they can score open goals.

Fred_the_Red
25-11-2007, 03:06
Yeah alot of goals are from rebounds.

Parmie
25-11-2007, 03:10
We discussed in the FML beta and I looked up the real life stats of a couple of players, a serie A striker had a ratio of 70% goals to shots on goal last season, this season so far it is 36%, which should the game replicate?

Mravac Kid
25-11-2007, 03:14
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Myros:
OK here's a real world stat for comparison:

Team Man City (season so far)-
Games played 13
Goals 15
shots : on target 75
shots : off target 63

Another random stat (season so far):
Games played 13
Manchester United have had most Shots On Target (49), most Shots Off Target (55), most Shots Per Goal. (26.00) and most Corners (51)

See the 26 shots per goal stat? ;p

M </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Um... so Man UTD have shot 104 times in 13 games, with 26 shots per goal... they scored four goals in 13 games?!?

Anyway, here's a few screenies from me.
Pre-patch game:
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/8104/bolognavjuventusstatsmaxr6.th.png (http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bolognavjuventusstatsmaxr6.png)
Even though Bologna were outplaying my Juventus side, Buffon's excellence prevented them from scoring. My own players only had 6 shots on target, but one went in.
And another, this one with game patched:
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6514/laziovjuventusstatsmatcxm2.th.png (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=laziovjuventusstatsmatcxm2.png)
As you can see, it's pretty much the same stats. So I suppose it all comes down to the way your team plays. I don't get many longshots, but on previous versions it happened a lot, especially with DM's trying them at every chance they got.
I do agree that top-rate strikers tend to miss more one-on-ones than would be comfortable and that it's annoying at times, but I'm not seeing the numbers mentioned in this thread.

Mravac Kid
25-11-2007, 03:16
Oh, and I checked my FM07 game too, and the stats are almost the same.

ljdzsgffk
25-11-2007, 03:23
The problem addressed shouldn't be that strikers are missing 10 one-on-ones a match. The problem is why there are 10 oe-on-ones every match in the first place. When was the last time a real life match had this many chances?

nukehim47
25-11-2007, 03:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ljdzsgffk:
The problem addressed shouldn't be that strikers are missing 10 one-on-ones a match. The problem is why there are 10 oe-on-ones every match in the first place. When was the last time a real life match had this many chances? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
yes that is true.

to fix it the amount of one on ones should be reduced but at the same time the chances of scoring one on ones should be increased a lot.

totti_is_god
25-11-2007, 03:36
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
Yeah alot of goals are from rebounds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true - So many times has it happened, that I have wondered if it is a ploy of my strikers to smack the ball against the goalkeeper to leave them an open goal rebound from which to score.

Rich_Millers
25-11-2007, 03:52
I miss champ 01-02 style of playing. Hate the 2d pitch, takes way to long to complete a match.

Has anyone tried comparing games, where its only commentry, and games play fully on 2d pitch mode?

Rich_Millers
25-11-2007, 03:54
why cant i edit my post?

anyways, does anybody else feel that fm doesnt have the playability that champ 01-02 series did?

Rich_Millers
25-11-2007, 03:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rich_Millers:
I miss champ 01-02 style of playing. Hate the 2d pitch, takes way to long to complete a match.

Has anyone tried comparing games, where its only commentry, and games play fully on 2d pitch mode? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

totti_is_god
25-11-2007, 03:59
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rich_Millers:
I miss champ 01-02 style of playing. Hate the 2d pitch.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we are largely alone in feeling this way, sadly. The tactical complexity of FM probably now means that a player could barely survive without a 2D pitch, but the numerous problems that it has brought seldom leave me feeling that I'm getting a more realistic experience than I had all those years ago.

Rich_Millers
25-11-2007, 04:40
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by totti_is_god:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rich_Millers:
I miss champ 01-02 style of playing. Hate the 2d pitch.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we are largely alone in feeling this way, sadly. The tactical complexity of FM probably now means that a player could barely survive without a 2D pitch, but the numerous problems that it has brought seldom leave me feeling that I'm getting a more realistic experience than I had all those years ago. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont use the 2d pitch and i'm currently 3rd in the prem with manutd after 24 games with 2 games in hand on chelski and arse. Just bought aguero and wijnaldum for over 30m

DamianY2J
25-11-2007, 06:09
Just a few answers:


Why should I have to compile a notebook's worth of notes to get rid of this problem?
An in-depth problem such as this requires an in-depth solution. Those people that are experiencing the SOG/Goals poor ratio problem are normally still winning the game, so they can easily just "pick up and play" the game and get success. However, if you start to look more in-depth at the details of each match, and think "Hmm, I only won 40% of headers" or "my SOG/goals ratio is poor", then a complicated solution is needed.

If a complicated solution wasn't needed, then people would be posting on here a lot more saying the game is too easy.

You don't even have to make a notebook's worth of notes - just fiddle with the tactics yourself, make logical decisions and see what happens. Many real life managers use the "trial and error" method of tactics, they will try something and if it doesn't work as they want, they will try something else.

Instead of instantly coming on here and moaning, try experimenting. If you are having a lot of problems even after experimenting, then that's why the Tactics forum exists - to help you.


Why won't someone from SI comment?
They did. Right back on Page 1, they said they didn't believe there is a problem. If they have been paying attention to this thread, then they would have seen the same thing I have - people posting opinions. No-one has posted a collection of stats, together with their tactics so SI can't make a comment. No-one has posted proof, and it is needed for SI to be able to "fix" it.

There is as many people saying something's wrong as there is saying there's nothing wrong. SI can't fix what doesn't exist, and the fact it exists in your own personal game, doesn't mean it's a global problem.

I'll have to repeat this again - it's the same coded game and coded patch that everyone is using. Some people have the problem, some don't. Therefore, it stands to reason it's something you're doing that is creating the problem, and therefore, isn't something for SI to fix.


Why are people denying there's a problem at all?
I, for one, am not SI's biggest supporter. I am a huge fan of CM 01/02 and still play it daily, and only play FM07/08 every now and then. That's only because the game has become so huge and so in-depth (which most users on this forum demanded) that it's become too much of a committment for me to play. I prefer the simplicity of CM 01/02, but I appreciate that FM has to develop year after year and become bigger and better. Gamers demand that.

I also accept that FM08 is not perfect. There is a lot of problems with it. I actually enjoy FM07 more than FM08, but again, that's a personal opinion.

I accept there is a problem with how the game is graphically represented, and this misrepresentation can sometimes lead people to say "Why didn't he just shoot?". It may be the case that he wasn't able to, was on his wrong foot, was a bit unbalanced, or the defender was really close to him - the 2D pitch can only show so much, and perhaps doesn't get it spot on all the time.

However, FM08 is what we've got. It's the best game released by SI so far, and none of the bugs stops people playing it. Perhaps there is some statistical or gameplay problems. But until someone is able to compile some information to show this clearly, nothing can be done about it.

101east
25-11-2007, 06:30
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rich_Millers:
why cant i edit my post?

anyways, does anybody else feel that fm doesnt have the playability that champ 01-02 series did? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was the best version ever...far from the fm of today

tucothetyke
25-11-2007, 06:33
After reading this I went away and looked at my teams stats compared to the AI teams playing against me. I am Wellington Pheonix (the worst team in the A-League) and play defensive counter attacking football, with passing down both flanks. I was shocked at the stats.

My Stats were.
Total shots 136

On Target 83

% on Target 61%

SOG Ratio 23%

AI Teams Stats
Total Shots 161

On Target 72

% On Target 45%

SOG Ratio 10%

This was after 14 games of the regular season and clearly shows the game is biased towards my attackers. I have scored 27 and conceded only 7.

postal postie
25-11-2007, 06:37
to be honest i dont see much of a problem.

i get about 9 shots on target per game. which is roughly what the oopo get. if i'm trounsing them i'll get much more.
i'm scoring about 3 goals a game.

DamianY2J
25-11-2007, 06:46
Those last 2 posts just show that some people are experiencing the problem and some aren't.