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View Full Version : Patch 8.0.1. Shots to Goal Ratio not fixed - SHOCKING!! SI Please answer - believe to be related to Closing down and Long shots bug



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CNGVR
25-11-2007, 08:04
I agree.. But your screenshots are harmless.

My most (!!!) [not 1 of 15 or s.th. like that] matches look like

Team A:
Shots: 31
On target: 12
goals: 0


Team B:
Shots: 2
On target: 1
goals: 1

ljdzsgffk
25-11-2007, 08:05
Have SI admitted that there are too many one-on-one chances in the game yet?

CNGVR
25-11-2007, 08:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 101east:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rich_Millers:
why cant i edit my post?

anyways, does anybody else feel that fm doesnt have the playability that champ 01-02 series did? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was the best version ever...far from the fm of today </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
YES.. is there an 2007/08 update for CM01/02 or CM 03/04?? I don't wanna play FM08 anymore..

############################################
#Is CM2008 better than FM? I thought always#
#that FM is better, but did anybody played #
#it??......................................#
############################################

DamianY2J
25-11-2007, 08:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ljdzsgffk:
Have SI admitted that there are too many one-on-one chances in the game yet? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because no-one's proved it yet.

big_bob
25-11-2007, 08:38
Here is the november 2007 update for CM 01-02
http://champman0102.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=3074
I will go back to CM 01-02 before they fix FM 2008. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

nukehim47
25-11-2007, 08:42
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ljdzsgffk:
Have SI admitted that there are too many one-on-one chances in the game yet? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because no-one's proved it yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
ok well go and take a look at the screenshots again and stop rambling on about tactics.

As somebody said earlier, tactics have absolutely nothing to do with whether a striker misses 95% of one on one chances.

The fact we are noticing this problem shows that we have good tactics because we are seeing so many easy chances missed.

I do not have time to take screenshots of every bloody match, I have posted extensive proof from one match and I would hope SI would take my word for it that it happens in all games. I am not part of SI's testing team therefore I am not going to act like I am by spending days taking screenshots.

postal postie
25-11-2007, 08:47
there are lots of things that people think are happening too often within the game without actually having seen the stats for real life.

too many yellow cards people shout and then someone posts a link for the stats and it shows that actually its nigh on perfect.

T-Bag
25-11-2007, 10:27
As I expected, now my team is actually good I too am creating and missing **** loads of chances. I'm using the same tactic as last season, yet now I have some decent players i'm creating and missing a ridiculous amount of chances.

I'll have some stats soon..

Onizukaeikichi
25-11-2007, 10:32
to be honest all we need to do in this version is to pack the midfield so that when we shoot ( 99% the keeper saves ) we have got players to get the rebound.

i agree though, most of the time i am facing super keepers (MOM) and the ball always seem to have a magnet in it and it always flys to the bar. It hits the woodwork! Bleh.

Weird **** is that sometimes even when my players get the rebound, the keeper is like at the near post and my player is at the far post and yet he still fires it to the keeper. So unrealistic.

gyroscope
25-11-2007, 10:32
The game seems to have totally changed for me since the patch. Superkeepers in many matches. Few chances to opposition yet they regularly take their chances. And also defensive midfielders constantly getting a match rating of 6 no matter how I try to adjust individual tactics or team tactics. Playing ManU so got quality players in that position. They were quite often getting 8s before patch but now they're lucky to get a 7.
Is this supposed to be added realism?

Major Raver
25-11-2007, 10:37
Im not seeing any problems with this to be honest, im baffled why so many are having problems.

In my first 12 games Ive score 32 goals conceded 4, and no goalie of the AI has been man of the match. I'm scoring one on ones, and I'm roughly putting away 33% of the chances I make, for example 9 shots and 3 are scored.

I'm Torquay in the Conference by the way.

postal postie
25-11-2007, 11:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Major Raver:
Im not seeing any problems with this to be honest, im baffled why so many are having problems.

In my first 12 games Ive score 32 goals conceded 4, and no goalie of the AI has been man of the match. I'm scoring one on ones, and I'm roughly putting away 33% of the chances I make, for example 9 shots and 3 are scored.

I'm Torquay in the Conference by the way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i'm with you. i'm scoring roughly 33% of shots on target.

DamianY2J
25-11-2007, 11:24
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nukehim47:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ljdzsgffk:
Have SI admitted that there are too many one-on-one chances in the game yet? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because no-one's proved it yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
ok well go and take a look at the screenshots again and stop rambling on about tactics.

As somebody said earlier, tactics have absolutely nothing to do with whether a striker misses 95% of one on one chances.

The fact we are noticing this problem shows that we have good tactics because we are seeing so many easy chances missed.

I do not have time to take screenshots of every bloody match, I have posted extensive proof from one match and I would hope SI would take my word for it that it happens in all games. I am not part of SI's testing team therefore I am not going to act like I am by spending days taking screenshots. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the last time, there is no proof. Screenshots posted by a few people is not proof.

Some people have the problem, some don't. So, it shows that some people can alter their tactics to create a situation where they are taking their chances.

This field intentionally left blank
25-11-2007, 11:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">For the last time, there is no proof. Screenshots posted by a few people is not proof. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, its not for the last time. I think the screen shots presently here are clear evidence of a match engine problem.

Steffers
25-11-2007, 11:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by big_bob:
Here is the november 2007 update for CM 01-02
http://champman0102.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=3074
I will go back to CM 01-02 before they fix FM 2008. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sold

DamianY2J
25-11-2007, 11:33
I disagree.

The screenshots only show the fact that they didnt have many goals compared to shots on target, and that their players occasionally miss one on ones.

That's all it shows.


It doesn't show a consistent bad pattern (and it takes more than a few games to count as a pattern), and it doesn't show anything wrong with the game engine.

Also, it only shows a problem with some people, even further evidence that it's not neccessarily anything wrong with the engine.


If a problem can be identified beyond any doubt, I'd be happy to accept it so that it can be fixed - it'd benefit my own game too - but as yet, I'm not convinced anything is wrong with the game generally.

This field intentionally left blank
25-11-2007, 11:36
Ok, so you disagree; that doesn't give you the right to declare the issue closed.

Magnus
25-11-2007, 11:39
SI solved the closing down bug, but now there are others. The super keepers bug and the super strikers bug.

Any striker with decent pace can passes easily through your defenders and score loads of goals. And you can't do anything to change it.

I wonder why don't SI bring back FM 2007 match engine, it's much better than the FM 2008 one.

nukehim47
25-11-2007, 11:40
it would show a consistent bad pattern if I posted screenshots from every match.

I have better things to do though, plus people like Damien would still claim it's tactics http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I have played the series since CM2, I know when there is a problem.

You can't keep shooting people down just because you can't see it yourself.

DamianY2J
25-11-2007, 11:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by This field intentionally left blank:
Ok, so you disagree; that doesn't give you the right to declare the issue closed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did I declare the issue closed?

I just thought i'd reiterate that people shouldn't just accept there's a problem and demand answers. I was making the point that it hasn't been shown for sure that there is a problem, and that's why the only SI comment in this thread is one to say "there's no problem".

DamianY2J
25-11-2007, 11:43
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nukehim47:
it would show a consistent bad pattern if I posted screenshots from every match.

I have better things to do though, plus people like Damien would still claim it's tactics http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I have played the series since CM2, I know when there is a problem.

You can't keep shooting people down just because you can't see it yourself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And just because it's happening to you, it doesn't mean there's a problem affecting everyone. There's been countless of people posting in here to say they don't have a problem. If you think it's a serious game error - an error with the coding - then can you explain why it's not happening to everyone?

Some people are able to use tactics and other things to stop this from happening, and score a high percentage of their chances.


Even the topic starter Fred the Red said that after adjusting his tactics, he saw a difference in the number of chances he scored. With a bit more adjustment, I'm sure he'd see further improvements. This goes a little way to proving my point - this problem is avoidable, and many people have done so.

totti_is_god
25-11-2007, 11:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nukehim47:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ljdzsgffk:
Have SI admitted that there are too many one-on-one chances in the game yet? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because no-one's proved it yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
ok well go and take a look at the screenshots again and stop rambling on about tactics.

As somebody said earlier, tactics have absolutely nothing to do with whether a striker misses 95% of one on one chances.

The fact we are noticing this problem shows that we have good tactics because we are seeing so many easy chances missed.

I do not have time to take screenshots of every bloody match, I have posted extensive proof from one match and I would hope SI would take my word for it that it happens in all games. I am not part of SI's testing team therefore I am not going to act like I am by spending days taking screenshots. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the last time, there is no proof. Screenshots posted by a few people is not proof.

Some people have the problem, some don't. So, it shows that some people can alter their tactics to create a situation where they are taking their chances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but I think it is a sad state of affairs if the adjustment of the tactics to which the Fred the Red has referred does much to dictate a user's success in one-on-one situations. Naturally training must have a bearing, but I would not expect, when any of my players go through on goal, for them to be considering the tempo the team is playing at, or the creative freedom he has been granted. If this is the case, then the tactical complexity of FM is starting to have some very nasty side-effects in my view.

DamianY2J
25-11-2007, 11:52
Now, this I will concede.

To me, tactics have a major and perhaps too big impact on how the game plays and the result.

Whether this is realistic or not, I suppose it is, and I know SI are trying to achieve realism, but the tactics do something annoy me.


I guess SI can't win - a lot of people want realism, and I guess complicated tactics is part of that.

nukehim47
25-11-2007, 11:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nukehim47:
it would show a consistent bad pattern if I posted screenshots from every match.

I have better things to do though, plus people like Damien would still claim it's tactics http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I have played the series since CM2, I know when there is a problem.

You can't keep shooting people down just because you can't see it yourself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And just because it's happening to you, it doesn't mean there's a problem affecting everyone. There's been countless of people posting in here to say they don't have a problem. If you think it's a serious game error - an error with the coding - then can you explain why it's not happening to everyone?

Some people are able to use tactics and other things to stop this from happening, and score a high percentage of their chances.


Even the topic starter Fred the Red said that after adjusting his tactics, he saw a difference in the number of chances he scored. With a bit more adjustment, I'm sure he'd see further improvements. This goes a little way to proving my point - this problem is avoidable, and many people have done so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would say the a lot people don't notice it for a number of reaons:

1. They don't watch the 2D pitch
2. They don't have very good tactics that create good one on one chances.
3. It is still easy enough to win games, (I am nearly top of the table) but it really ****es me off what has happened to the match engine.

I put it to you, why should I have to change my tactic to get around a fault in the match engine?

It wouldn't help anyway though because as I have said before if my tactic is creating lots of chances (i.e. plently of one on ones) there is nothing to improve on.

sleeper77
25-11-2007, 12:10
Looks very likely now that I am going back to FM07 as the one on one bug is making me look up at the ceiling too often & say "Why? Why? Why?". And SI say they do not recognise it as not enough proof has been posted??!! They must be playing a completely different game or don't know where to find their own forums. I thought £22.97 was a bargain for FM08, now it is looking like a waste.

DamianY2J
25-11-2007, 12:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nukehim47:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nukehim47:
it would show a consistent bad pattern if I posted screenshots from every match.

I have better things to do though, plus people like Damien would still claim it's tactics http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I have played the series since CM2, I know when there is a problem.

You can't keep shooting people down just because you can't see it yourself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And just because it's happening to you, it doesn't mean there's a problem affecting everyone. There's been countless of people posting in here to say they don't have a problem. If you think it's a serious game error - an error with the coding - then can you explain why it's not happening to everyone?

Some people are able to use tactics and other things to stop this from happening, and score a high percentage of their chances.


Even the topic starter Fred the Red said that after adjusting his tactics, he saw a difference in the number of chances he scored. With a bit more adjustment, I'm sure he'd see further improvements. This goes a little way to proving my point - this problem is avoidable, and many people have done so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would say the a lot people don't notice it for a number of reaons:

1. They don't watch the 2D pitch
2. They don't have very good tactics that create good one on one chances.
3. It is still easy enough to win games, (I am nearly top of the table) but it really ****es me off what has happened to the match engine.

I put it to you, why should I have to change my tactic to get around a fault in the match engine?

It wouldn't help anyway though because as I have said before if my tactic is creating lots of chances (i.e. plently of one on ones) there is nothing to improve on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There have been plenty of people posted who are having a lot of shots on goal and are getting 25-40% goals to shots on target ratio.

I put it back to you that it is not a fault of the match engine. If it was, then there would be no solution.

As it is, there have been plenty of people who have not experienced it, and even if they have, they've managed to alter some tactical part and seen it improve.

If it was a fault, then things wouldn't improve.

DamianY2J
25-11-2007, 12:13
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sleeper77:
Looks very likely now that I am going back to FM07 as the one on one bug is making me look up at the ceiling too often & say "Why? Why? Why?". And SI say they do not recognise it as not enough proof has been posted??!! They must be playing a completely different game or don't know where to find their own forums. I thought £22.97 was a bargain for FM08, now it is looking like a waste. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SI aren't saying that. I am. And SI are playing the same game as you, and for some strange reason, they're not experiencing it. Neither are a lot of other people.

nukehim47
25-11-2007, 12:18
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nukehim47:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DamianY2J:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nukehim47:
it would show a consistent bad pattern if I posted screenshots from every match.

I have better things to do though, plus people like Damien would still claim it's tactics http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I have played the series since CM2, I know when there is a problem.

You can't keep shooting people down just because you can't see it yourself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And just because it's happening to you, it doesn't mean there's a problem affecting everyone. There's been countless of people posting in here to say they don't have a problem. If you think it's a serious game error - an error with the coding - then can you explain why it's not happening to everyone?

Some people are able to use tactics and other things to stop this from happening, and score a high percentage of their chances.


Even the topic starter Fred the Red said that after adjusting his tactics, he saw a difference in the number of chances he scored. With a bit more adjustment, I'm sure he'd see further improvements. This goes a little way to proving my point - this problem is avoidable, and many people have done so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would say the a lot people don't notice it for a number of reaons:

1. They don't watch the 2D pitch
2. They don't have very good tactics that create good one on one chances.
3. It is still easy enough to win games, (I am nearly top of the table) but it really ****es me off what has happened to the match engine.

I put it to you, why should I have to change my tactic to get around a fault in the match engine?

It wouldn't help anyway though because as I have said before if my tactic is creating lots of chances (i.e. plently of one on ones) there is nothing to improve on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There have been plenty of people posted who are having a lot of shots on goal and are getting 25-40% goals to shots on target ratio.

I put it back to you that it is not a fault of the match engine. If it was, then there would be no solution.

As it is, there have been plenty of people who have not experienced it, and even if they have, they've managed to alter some tactical part and seen it improve.

If it was a fault, then things wouldn't improve. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
the problem isn't necessarily with poor goal to shots ratio though.

In the end the goals do come it's just the fact that it takes so many missed one on ones before finally somebody normally scores a rebound.

I have no dispute with scorelines or anything like that it just feels that SI have made it almost impossible to score one on ones in an attempt to keep the amount of goals scored at a realistic level.

DamianY2J
25-11-2007, 12:26
But how many one on ones are scored in real life? I wonder what the ratio would be.

I don't think it's as common as you think.

davhislop
25-11-2007, 12:40
dont care what anyone says facts are facts if i have 2 strikers that have got 15+ for everythink u need , shoot, composure, pace etc and they both combined have 15 shots on goal then unless its buffon or cech in goal i should score a healthy amount and not draw with portsmouth 1-1 and some unknown keep named foster gets a 8 and mom and i draw!!

earmack
25-11-2007, 12:41
Damian: roughly 1/1.5. Go watch some football and you'll see this to be true. Especially at the top level.

It doesn't even matter to me that its not a bug, if its intentional that a bad tactic=many missed 'easy' chances SI made a huge mistake. The only reply SI have made is to say there is no long shot bug, they have not answered our concerns of whether having the 'incorrect' tactic can lead to ostensibly dominating but losing to the only chance of the opponent.

JordanC
25-11-2007, 12:51
Damian...I like the way no one seemed to comment on my tips on how to utilize strikers. (I must be an idiot though since I haven't played this game since CM 01/02...)

My tactics are primarily striker-attacking oriented and I convert more than 50% of my one-on-one chances. Maybe instead of complaining, actually heed someone else's advice.

earmack
25-11-2007, 13:24
Jordan, a lovely useless post mocking people. GOOD JOB.

Does it not strike you as counter intuitive and you know unrealistic that tactics can effect the outcome of one-on-ones? If not then fine go back to a world where world class strikers are only clinical because their coach selected the right creative freedom setting.

George Graham
25-11-2007, 13:24
Not impressed- it actually looks that rather than fix closing down and the poor defending that the choice was to cripple the effectiveness of strikers.

Just had a game where my ultra quick striker missed 2 one on ones by the FM07 method of running towards the corner flag and allowing the defenders he had previously left yards behind to catch up.

postal postie
25-11-2007, 13:25
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by davhislop:
dont care what anyone says facts are facts if i have 2 strikers that have got 15+ for everythink u need , shoot, composure, pace etc and they both combined have 15 shots on goal then unless its buffon or cech in goal i should score a healthy amount and not draw with portsmouth 1-1 and some unknown keep named foster gets a 8 and mom and i draw!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

which keeper is that? ben foster? if it is then he's not unknown

i'm sure kuyt is quite good with stats. shevchenko? morientes?

morientiez is doing quite well with his new club. could it be to do with the tactics at liverpool? maybe it was the style of play in the english leagues? all have an effect.

earmack
25-11-2007, 13:27
To expand slightly:

Realistic: a tactic determines how many chances are created and the quality of chances.

Unrealistic: a tactic determines whether players score from one-on-ones.

Thats fairly simple isn't it? All i want to know is what SI have to say not what the same 4 people calling me stupid have to say.

Tom L
25-11-2007, 13:34
Realistic: Russian billionaire hires Super portugese manager.
Unrealistic: Russian billionaire hire 12 year old from Sussex (to manage football team)

Magnus
25-11-2007, 14:06
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by earmack:
To expand slightly:

Realistic: a tactic determines how many chances are created and the quality of chances.

Unrealistic: a tactic determines whether players score from one-on-ones.

Thats fairly simple isn't it? All i want to know is what SI have to say not what the same 4 people calling me stupid have to say. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with you.

SI just need to explain us the point that you expressed so well in this thread.

Arrogant Chairman
25-11-2007, 14:22
SI... DO SOMETHING!
okay okay http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I'm seriously waiting patch 8.0.2 before xmas. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

ljdzsgffk
25-11-2007, 14:31
I just had Rooney play an amazing match against a slightly attacking Wigan side (this is because they dont have 11 players in their penalty box). He had 4 shots with all on target, all one-on-ones. How many goals? 3. The maximum number of defenders around him were 2.

In fact, I think this is a pattern. Against better sides, opponents have attacked and so I've had more goals. For example, against Fiorentina, who are 1st in Serie A, I beat them 5-3, with Rooney scoring 4.

Therefore, I think its down to the quality of your oppenent. If they are better, they will attack more and defend less so your strikers will have better quality chances and so score more.

However, I still think the number of one-on-ones per match is ridiculous and should be fixed.

101east
25-11-2007, 14:34
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arrogant Chairman:
SI... DO SOMETHING!
okay okay http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I'm seriously waiting patch 8.0.2 before xmas. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You will be lucky if you get it in jan xD

crazyrap465
25-11-2007, 14:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JordanC:
Damian...I like the way no one seemed to comment on my tips on how to utilize strikers. (I must be an idiot though since I haven't played this game since CM 01/02...)

My tactics are primarily striker-attacking oriented and I convert more than 50% of my one-on-one chances. Maybe instead of complaining, actually heed someone else's advice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Right then, I'll start Frazier Campbell alone up top in my next game vs. Chelsea. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I am now to the point where I pray my strikers hit it at the keeper so maybe I can bury the rebound. Haven't got any stats or whatnot, but I would estimate my strikers (Rooney, Tevez, Saha and Menez) have missed their last 6 or 7 one vs one chances.I'll admit that I do play quick tempo, but it's absolutely daft to me to think that affects my 1 v 1 ratio.

And to Damian Y2J, from what I have seen the problem seems to be more prevalent in top sides, for whatever reason. But just because only 25% of ford focus' break down does not mean there is not a problem.

Tony Dolby
25-11-2007, 15:02
There seems to have been a substantial toning down of striker's finishing ability with the new patch.
That isn't a bad thing.

What is annoying is that when the striker manages to get a one on one on target, the Div 2 goalie, (one on ones 4, reflexes 9, positioning, 6) pulls off a wonder save. Not just once, but two three, four times in game.

Not just one goalie a season, they are all at it!

Maybe a little tweak is needed. Buffon I can imagine might save half of these one on chances even against a good striker. A washed out, overweight Div 2 goalie with chalk knees?

I think not.

nukehim47
25-11-2007, 15:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyrap465:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JordanC:
Damian...I like the way no one seemed to comment on my tips on how to utilize strikers. (I must be an idiot though since I haven't played this game since CM 01/02...)

My tactics are primarily striker-attacking oriented and I convert more than 50% of my one-on-one chances. Maybe instead of complaining, actually heed someone else's advice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Right then, I'll start Frazier Campbell alone up top in my next game vs. Chelsea. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I am now to the point where I pray my strikers hit it at the keeper so maybe I can bury the rebound. Haven't got any stats or whatnot, but I would estimate my strikers (Rooney, Tevez, Saha and Menez) have missed their last 6 or 7 one vs one chances.I'll admit that I do play quick tempo, but it's absolutely daft to me to think that affects my 1 v 1 ratio.

And to Damian Y2J, from what I have seen the problem seems to be more prevalent in top sides, for whatever reason. But just because only 25% of ford focus' break down does not mean there is not a problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
but the focus is a lovely car and mine has never broken down http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

T-Bag
25-11-2007, 15:30
Right I have now recorded statistics from 50 games which I have been logging on a spreedsheet I created.

Season 1

Background: I am Leeds and it is my 3rd season in the Premiership, I have built a good team with a solid tactic and I finished 3rd in the last season. The statistics don’t include the start of the season as I started logging about 11 games in – I won the league in this season. I believe my team was very average and had no world class strikers.

My Stats

57% of all shots attempted are on target. (379 shots, 215 on target)
14% of these shots led to goals - (379 shots, 54 goals)
25% of shots which were on target resulted in a goal (215 shots on target, 54 goals)

Thes remained fairly consistent over the season and looking at the above I believe these to be fairly reasonable. I have been trying to search for some statistics on actual shots to goal ratio from the Premiership but can’t find anything. From memory/motd last night :P I think the % of shots on target which leads to goals should be higher.


AI Stats

56% of all shots attempted are on target (389 shots, 218 on target)
9.5% of all shots led to goals - (37 goals from 389 shots)
17% of all shots which were on target resulted in a goal (218 shots, 37 goals)

These are similar to mine and bearing in mind I won the league I would expect the AI to not fare quite as well. But I still think it is a bit low.

Average shots on goal per match = 13
AI Average shots on goal per match = 14
Average goals per game = 2
AI average goals per game = 1.3

Season 2

Okay I now have some cash to bring in some new players, I didn’t go crazy but I made some sensible signings and improved my team a lot. I don’t think team blend has been affected too much. I haven’t finished this season but I am currently top of the league and still in all cups so my team IS peforming well.

My Stats

52% of all shots are on target (253 shots, 134 on target)
11% of all shots led to goals – (253 shots, 28 goals)
20% of shots which were on target resulted in a goal (134 shots, 28 goals)

It’s not massively different to the first season but you can see that now I have better players and strikers they are missing an average of 5% more shots.

Average shots per game 17
Average AI shots per game – 9
Average goals per game = 2
Average AI goals per game – 0.87

So we can see in my second season, with better players I am infact creating more chances AND I am scoring the same amount of goals but I am missing MORE of the chances that I create.

AI Stats

61% of all shots are on target (139 shots 85 on target)
9% of all shots led to goals (139 shots, 13 goals)
15% of all shots on target led to a goal (85 shots, 13 goals)

So we can see that because my team is better it is restricting the number of goals the AI score against me. However you also notice due to this there is an INCREASE in the amount of shots they attempt which are on target.



I have singled out games against "rubbish" teams and lower league teams. These are the teams I should be beating easily and scoring lots of goals against. But this isn't what happens:

My stats (vs rubbish teams)

67% of all shots are on target
6% of all shots led to goals
9% of shots on target led to goals

AI Stats - rubbish teams vs me

51% of all shots are on target
19% of all shots led to goals
36% of all shots on target led to goals

This imo is the problem. I am classing rubbish teams as anyone in the bottom 3, you know the ones who go all season with 2 wins or any lower division team. Also including is any European team with grey players. Friendly games are discounted completely although the effects in those are even worse. You can see from my season stats that as my team improves I am finding it harder to get shots on target BUT I am still scoring as many goals. I believe this is the AI way of compensating for silly scores because overall my results are fine, the only problem is the way the match stats pan out. There is a HUGE difference against very poor teams. Only 6% of my shots led to goals compared a normal 14% of shots, where as because the AI has so few chances they suddenly jump up to 19% converted !

I’m not really seeing loads of shots like some people describe but I really expect that the better my team gets the more pronounced this will become. There IS a problem here, it needs tweaking. I honestly don’t think it effects the results that much, it’s just annoying as hell when you lose to the only shot they have. I think this is just a side effect of the Ais way of representing the game.

Fred_the_Red
25-11-2007, 17:12
People who are saying that no one else is experiencing this shots to goal ratio makes me laugh. This thread has reached 5 pages FFS. No problem my arse.

George Graham
25-11-2007, 17:20
This is really annoying- especially if you have built your team around a solid defence and fast counter-attacking.

This is because virtually every chance I create is a one on one and in my latest match (away) which i eventually drew 1-1 I had 11 CLEAR one on ones.

At the VERY least there is a problem that too many one v one situations occur as defenders just cannot cope with balls over the top and quick players, this isnt just through the middle either DR/DLs cannot get near my wingers.

George Graham
25-11-2007, 17:21
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
People who are saying that no one else is experiencing this shots to goal ratio makes me laugh. This thread has reached 5 pages FFS. No problem my arse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be fair they may well not have- as it could be down to style of play.

tef1on
25-11-2007, 18:37
Arsenal

41 shots

32 Shots on Target
9 Shots off Target

Goals Scored 1 - Adebayor

Forwards used: Gilardino, Adebayor, Van Persie



Aston Villa

4 Shots

2 on Target
2 Off Target

Goals 1 - Young



Is this a fooking joke? will post the screen if nessasary.

And i know this isnt my tactic, since Patch 90% of my games are like this.

SkidRo
25-11-2007, 19:00
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tef1on:
Arsenal

41 shots

32 Shots on Target
9 Shots off Target

Goals Scored 1 - Adebayor

Forwards used: Gilardino, Adebayor, Van Persie



Aston Villa

4 Shots

2 on Target
2 Off Target

Goals 1 - Young



Is this a fooking joke? will post the screen if nessasary.

And i know this isnt my tactic, since Patch 90% of my games are like this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if thats the case for you then you are either experiencing some really bad luck, a bug or your strikers are just pansies. my games never turn out like that i have yet to play a game where i had 30 shot son goal. i played against roma and they had almost twice the amount of shots i had and i won 2-0 but to be honest they only had 2 shots on target.

Sioldana
25-11-2007, 19:14
Eh I just noticed this post

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/5392039363

which unintentionally points out what some of us are experiencing, check out how many opposition goalkeepers get MOM

wwfan
25-11-2007, 19:30
Managing at Lower Levels is Easy

If you manage at lower levels, you don't need to worry too much about tatcical sophistication. A simple Home and Away tactic will do the job, as long as they are contructed reasonably logically. Build a good set of tactics and you will do well.


Managing at Higher Levels is Difficult

If you have a world class team then it is more difficult to manage them.

Reasons:

1: You might not have the requisite reputation and thus players will not perform.

2: You do have the requisite reputation but haven't come to terms with the extra level of tactical knowledge required at the top level. This has only been an issue since 07 but is the major cause of the Missed Shotsd 'Bug'.

NB: I'm not trying to insult tactics here, just to give some advice. A lot of tactics are excellent until this scenario presents itself. It does require a different outlook to combat it.


The Missed Shots 'Bug'

This only happens at higher levels with European quality sides. Why? Simply because the AI will play ultra-defensively and restrict space as much as possible. This leads to the Missed Shots 'Bug'. A lot of the chances created are hurried becasue the user tactic is not actually creating the quality of chance that the 2d seems to suggest. Players are snatching at chances because of poorly thought out tactics against ultra-defensive sides. This is not to say that the tactic is poor; rather it is poor against a certain type of formation. Most of you complaining about the Missed Shot 'Bug' don't see it against other big sides, because they don't play so defensively, and thus your world class players have the time and space to operate and thus play to their attributes.

The problem is in the representation of the match, rather than it being a bug. The 2d makes it impossible to see the actual quality of the chance, and the commentary doesn't help. The only measurement device is the percentage of shots to goals scored. If it is hovering around the 5% mark, then something is wrong tactically, and those experiencing it need to come to terms with that. Posting result after result doesn't convince the naysayers and hardly helps those experiencing the issue. Thinking about and experimenting with different tactical ideas might help though.


The following section contains tactical advice, so if you don't want to read it (e.g. Jimbo) I suggest skipping the rest.

Ten Tips to Combat the Missed Shot 'Bug'

1: Don't play a TM. It restricts play and makes it one-dimensional and is thus easy to defend

2: Think about a playmaker if you have a player who can perform that function. It helps maintain possession and generally increases the quality of chance.

3: Wide and deep (to open space)

4: Three free roles, with high CF, to improve chances of the unexpected, which is impossible to defend against.

5: Slow it down and reduce passing to improve possession and to increase the quality of chance (tempo 1-3 in Europe, 4-5 in UK). You can up tempo for short burts at any point in the game to provide the AI with a different challenge.

6: Heavy pressing and hard tackling to try and win the ball up the pitch (slightly less for DCs and FBs, but high nonetheless)

7: Zonal, loose marking to increase space

8: Lots of Through Balls

9: (not sure about this one but certainly worked in 07) Hold Up Ball with wingers and forwards to allow time for your midfielders/FBs to catch up with play and overload the box.

10: FWRs often for FBs to overload the box and increase opportunity of uncontested cross.


I hope that helps.

earmack
25-11-2007, 20:03
WWfan:thanks for trying but I do all that except zonal marking (on principal)and full backs running forward often because whenever I do that i get hit hard on the break down my own flanks too often.
What I don't get is basically everyone is saying the problem is the match we see is not representative so what 'appear' to be good chances actually aren't, BUT I think if SI ever do answer I think they will contradict this. Think about it would you make a game where what you show to the player is completely contrary to what happens in real life and then claim its a realistic simulation? Still would like an answer from SI even though your answer is thoughtful and you are trying to help and I very much appreciate it.

earmack
25-11-2007, 20:07
P.S I have the problem at the Championship and corresponding levels across Europe(Seria B etc..). Maybe its because my team is that much better than the opposition already at that point. Maybe its because the game actively hates me.

wwfan
25-11-2007, 20:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by earmack:
P.S I have the problem at the Championship and corresponding levels across Europe(Seria B etc..). Maybe its because my team is that much better than the opposition already at that point. Maybe its because the game actively hates me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pre-match odds would be a good indicator. If you are seriously short-odds favourites then the problem will replicate. I would seriously suggest the marking and FBs FWRing often though. At Serie B and Championship level I'd be more careful with Free Roles and CF too.

ifllorescu
25-11-2007, 20:18
I am playing in Romanian league 2 level. I have two strikers basically totally opposite, one very slow and very skilled and the second very fast (18 pace and acceleration) very much in technique and dribbling. I always favored the second type of strikers in the past (past versions) since I like to play a quick/counterattacking style. I play both of them since they are the best I got and the team has no money for another transfer.

The problem with the current version of the match engine is evident in the team performance as watched through the highlights. Whenever they play together the fast striker has an insane amount of chances for this level (5-6) all one-on-one. At his speed and dribbling and at this level of competition he just flies through the defense. However, he only scores one or none of his chances every game. You will say that his finishing and composure are only 12 whatever. I played football. I watched football. When you are face to face with the goalie he is at a disadvantage. He could be Kahn for all I care I still score 3 out of 5 regardless of my composition or whatever stats.

Yeah it is possible to miss one like that maybe two. If you miss three though, you will not play for that team again. But five one on one chances come on. I remember a few weeks ago Steaua played Arsenal I believe and Iacob had a sitter one on one with the goalie. He missed, and since then he doesn't play that much. The owner said apparently that from winter he thinks of bringing another attacker.

Anyway, parenthesis aside there is a bad side to this coin too. Since the fast attacker gets all the chances the slow skilled one gets almost no shots on the net. Consequently, they both suck.

prakimus88
25-11-2007, 20:23
I haven't read through all the posts in this thread (all lot of them seem kind of nonsensical), but to weigh into the issue:

I think that since 8.01 (versus 8.00), the match engine has been downgraded the ability of strikers to finish from chances a bit too much across the board. HOWEVER, i don't think its a bug nor is it 'SHOCKING!!', it's just an attempt by SI to balance out some of the problems in the game.

in 8.00:
I didn't play it too much or with a lot of detail (i was waiting for the patch) but from what i did play, i noticed that FM08 had significantly improved the match engine, particularly in how teams defend realistically, and the variety of ways in which attackers try and beat defences. In FM08 there are a lot more realistic through balls, 1-2s, clever wing play, creative dribblers beating defenders and smart choices in 1-1s with the GK. The key result was that a lot of the time in previous FMs where stikers and other attackers would waste heaps of chances (particularly 1-1s with the GK), they were now able to finish goals, in ways that you see in real life. The key example i kept seeing time and time again, is when two strikers were pushing up against the oppositions back four, you would see one of them play a good through ball that the other striker would run onto, as the GK would charge out, the striker would no longer hit it straight at the GK, but instead either chip it over him or smash it past him.

The problem with this was that some games became VERY high scoring, especially when two good attacking teams played against each other. My examples were over two games, playing in Serie A with Roma for 3 years, and with Napoli for two years. Some of the problems were pretty clear when playing against Inter (Ibrahimovic/Adriano/Ribery/Stankovic/Suazo attacking VS Owen/Totti/Mancine/Taddei/Van der Vaart for me).

Playing for Roma, i played Inter 14 times over the course of three seasons (6 in the league, 2 super cups, 2 in champions league and 4 in the cup). The results were emblematic of what happened when a good attacking side were able to rip through a defence:

League H:Won 8-1
League A:Loss 0-6
Cup A:Loss 1-2
Cup H:Loss 0-8
Super Cup H:Won 4-1
League A:Loss 0-4
ECC H:Won 4-3
ECC A:Won 4-1
League H:Won 5-4
Super Cup H:Won 5-4
League A:Loss 5-3
Cup H: Won 2-0
Cup A: Loss 5-4
League H: Won 7-1

Now obviously there were mitigating factors in some of these games, but the vast majority of these games were played under "normal" circumstances (near full-strength teams, good morale, decent-excellent form, no reds/GK injuries in game, standard formations). Now I consider myself a decent FM player - i can take a decent team and win the league consistently as well as win cups/continentals - and over the course of this game with Roma, i won three serie a's, 1 ecc and 1 italian cup, but i'd never experienced results like this. It came down to the fact, that when there was a team with world-class attacking players, they were simply able to finish all those chances that were missed in previous games (i had my two strikers and AMC score 20+ and my wingers score 15+, while Ibrahimovic scored a hat-trick in 4 of the 6 games against me). Much of this, could also be due to the closing down bug which allowed attackers to keep the ball for longer in attack.

Since 8.01:
I think SI have tried to compensate for the number of goals scored by good attacking teams by toning down the ability of attackers to score from different types of chances, the build up play is almost identical (except that there are less strikers player another one with a through ball), but where in 8.00 good strikers could effortlessly beat a GK, they now almost invariably play it just wide of goal or straight into the GK. I'm not going to quote my games statistics (there are plenty of people already doing that, and some very illogically) but having played a season and a half with atletico, i've had some very different results. Playing with a comparable attack to my roma team (Maxi Rodriguez, Van der Vaart, Reyes, Aguero and Forlan as my first team, with support from Gyan, Luis Garcia, Raul Garcia, D'Alessandro, Simao), i find that i'm not converting nearly as many chances, despite creating more than i did with roma.

Key things i've noticed are that strikers ability to beat the keeper is poor (hitting it into them or past the post), there is a bug where players who are on the goal line but far too far from the goal still try and shoot (generating a lot of those 'unbelievable miss' commentaries) and the other big change i've noticed is that AMC's score a lot less from long shots and pile drivers from just outside the area (van der vaart has got just one long shot in last season, compared to about 15 in my game with Roma).

With that said, the balance hasn't been altered, as it applies to both teams equally, and as such the difficulty is still comparable to 8.00 (I did the league/cup double in season 1, and am sitting 4th half way through season 2, 6 points off the pace). And while there is still some high scoring games (5-4 win over barca, 6-3 loss to sevilla), there's no longer a scenario where i could play a team slightly better than me and get trounced 8-0 one week, then beat them 6-0 the next.

Well to conclude this long analysis of the change to shots/scoring in 8.01, i feel that it certainly has changed, and now there are a lot less of those "realistic" chances being converted in 8.01 than in 8.00, however the end result has been to balance out some of the problems of high-scoring matches and floodgate scenarios where one top team trounces another consistently. HOWEVER, there is nothing which is a bug about it, it's just the mechanics of the games that are easily adaptable to. I still find that the majority of results go to the team that deserved it, and the difficulty is no easier or harder since pre-patch. I would like to see the engine tweaked more so that long shots are again useful (i just don't use them anymore), fix the bug with players taking shots from the goal line and engine thinking it was an easy shot, bread and butter chances against the keeper should be taken better, BUT, there should be less of them.

Cheers,
P

towerofpower
25-11-2007, 20:26
Agreed with lot of that , wwfan. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Slow tempo seems to be very key for quality chances, for me at least and I haven't faced any of this problem.

4-3-3 with AMR and AML seems to be working very well with almost everyone but CB's set thrugh balls to medium.

earmack
25-11-2007, 21:08
WWf: thanks again, I am grateful for someone saying: 'hey try this it might help' and thats exactly what you and some others have done. Usually I'm favorite but the other teams don't have ridiculously long odds (for the most part). I flat out refuse to play zonal marking simply because in real football VERY few teams use it. This isn't the only reason I don't use it, I also feel zonal marking could allow the opposition wingers too much room to move inside and said wingers are excellent at crossing from any distance when they have space. Basically once the other team are withing 30 yards of my goal I want them marked and in my experience zonal marking just doesn't do this. As for the full backs getting forward, again I have been burnt waaaaaay to many times with full backs set to run forward mixed to even contemplate pushing them forward more often (I should note that I play a 4-3-1-2 so am lacking defensive cover on my flanks already. I also only give free roles to the AMC, one central mid(acting as a very basic 'winger' and a striker (again acting more like a winger than anything). One thing I will say: my team plays the football I would expect them to play given my formation and instructions, the ONLY problem is the inability to convert 'easy' chances, this goes back to what I was saying about things currently (apparently) being counter intuitive, its very hard for me to look at my team that generally dominates and go oh hey I should change that.

earmack
25-11-2007, 21:15
Also it should be noted even though i play an ostensibly narrow formation in reality the team is very much biased towards wing play, however I'd say (given I have a loft of players with good passing and creativity and instructions to play through balls often) the majority of my chances are my strikers one-on-one with the keeper, if it is in fact correct that these opportunities look a lot better than they actually are we may have reached the core of my problem and I'm guessing others have the same troubles. It seems almost unfair that we are being punished for playing a certain way, the last thing the game should be doing (in my opinion) is forcing you to play a certain way (i.e:crossing the ball is more likely to lead to a goal than putting a player clean through on goal).

wwfan
25-11-2007, 21:18
I would have to suggest once more you get the FBs forward, at least to mixed. With a slow tempo, they shouldn't be caught out of position. Getting them forward should help with accuracy of crosses and open space, as there very presence draws a defender out of a tight position to cover them. Even offering a striker 0.5 of a second extra on the ball should make all the difference, and that is what overlapping full-backs can do.

Yes, it will compromise your defence, but that shouldn't matter against an ultra-defensive side. You obviosuly wouldn't do it away from home, or against top quality opposition, but with home advantage and a higher quality team you should do it. Once you score you can revert to a safer option. It can't hurt to try, even as an 'I'll reload if I lose' test.

wwfan
25-11-2007, 21:22
I'm loath to post any more of this stuff in GQ, but I'd be happy to enter a dialgoue with you in T&TT or at FM-Britain. I guarantee that the problem you are seeing has a solution, although it might require a lot of flexibility in terms of your conceptualisation of football (and FM http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).

wwfan
25-11-2007, 21:35
Now, I have nowhere near the saem level of understanding of the 08 engine as I had of the 07, but believe the similarities to outweight the differences. Regarding the 'can't socre/concede too often with a great squad' I had this response from an American user in '07.

This thread is depressing.

I've always enjoyed wwfan's commentary in various threads. I like designing my own tactics after reading everyone's results.

I'm in 2016 in a particular game. I started with Oxford, made it to the championship, left for Man Utd (via a pit stop at Portsmouth). I've been dominant.

Starting the previous year, things started to go awry. Despite an even better squad, the goals started to dry up. And while I didn't allow more goals, my defense seemed more disorganized. So I started tweaking, sometimes after consulting these forums - other times, just doing what seemed logical. That first season, I still managed to win the title - only managed 70 points, and only beat out two other squads on goal difference.

The problems were compounded this season. Despite more tweaks, I was only 5th through 13 games with what was easily the best squad. I knew this thread was here, and finally the temptation was too great. I downloaded wwfan's tactics.

Instant success. How depressing. What I did find remarkable, however, was how substantial differences in game play can flow from minor tactical deviations. The formation I was playing mostly was actually very, very, very close to the Control tactic. But much less successful.

Thanks for your contributions, but I wish you'd adhered to your no-download rules. I just wasn't strong enough...


I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here, only to offer an actual example of the very problem people are complaining about having a tactical solution. It may not be easy, it may even see counter-intuitive to some, but it does exist nonetheless.

earmack
25-11-2007, 21:36
I'll give it a go for the next few games which are all at home against supposedly weaker teams. Incidentally one player recently(an hour ago) had 9 one-on-ones and not only did he not score but he only hit the 'target' (if the target means the keepers face)4 times. It doesn't help my mood that the opposition had 2 one on ones and scored both costing me 2 thoroughly deserved points. He will not play for the next 5 games or unless injuries require it.

wwfan
25-11-2007, 21:38
Good luck.

earmack
25-11-2007, 21:46
I am also equally sure there is a solution and I am hugely grateful that you're spending your time trying to help me, it just seems that I shouldn't NEED to look for a solution to dominating yet failing to convert chances, hopefully SI will tweak the hell out of the game for the next release and finally achieve a realistic balance between chances created and chances scored. I don't really want to go down the route of downloading a tactic as I feel that any success would be the authors and not my own, i WILL happily take the sort of advice you have offered already in this thread.

Thanks again for all your help and your kind attitude.

earmack
25-11-2007, 21:49
it just seems that I shouldn't NEED to look for a solution to dominating yet failing to convert chances

--------

That looks really stupid now I've seen it, I more meant that as in real life if a teams creating loads of chances but not scoring it would not be down to tactics more down to bad luck/some sort of freak of nature occurring across the whole team that stops them scoring from what look like easy chances( I'm thinking Arsenal last year and the entire team missing something like 30 tap ins from inside the box across the whole season).

earmack
25-11-2007, 21:54
Oh how I wish their was an edit function I'm constantly thinking of little addendum's the second I click 'post'. I think my problem is that I cannot separate real football and FM and i really need to get over myself.

Also do you find that your tactic/s(say a slightly attacking home tactic) works for most/every team/s, or is it very much one of those things where ever set of players/team needs a very specifically tweaked tactic?

wwfan
25-11-2007, 22:04
I think one of the problems is the testing methodology. Tactical testers generally have a good understanding of the engine (or they wouldn't be testing). Hence, most tactics that are used as test tactics don't create the scenarios being described, but much more realistic outcomes. It is impossible for SI to test all possible user designs. The outcome seems to be, that a certain type of tactic being used at a certain level against certain AI formations produces too many chances from which far too few are converted. Perceiving is as 'unrealistic because my team should score loads from these chances' produces frustration and broken mice/keyboards. Perceiving it as 'unrealistic because no team can produce this amount of chances and not score from them' should push the user to redeisgn his tactics to be more akin to reality (as JordanC explained earlier in the thread).

Highlighting the goals percentage from shots on target as the major indicator of tactical quality is the only really valuable method. If you have a low percentage, you are doing something wrong, no matter what you may 'think' you are seeing. It may be that the engine isn't able to 'represent' reality the way you would wish based on the shots you have, but it is certainly 'represeneting' reality in terms of the world it has constructed, as highlighted by PaulC's soak statistics earlier in the thread. To enjoy the game, one has to stop blaming the engine and try to reconceptualise their tactics as being wrong on two accounts:

1: No tactic can create so many chances

2: The percentage of goals/shot on target is too low

Both are unrealsitic. Rant, rave and continue to post stats that just prove you are doing the above does not achieve a thing. Learn to mimic reality and you will enjoy the game again. That means you have to reconceptualise your tactical design, as the engine (fairly or unfairly) is stopping your current set-up from working. I believe it is both fair (tries to represent reality across the tactical spectrum) and unfair (looks like you should be winning in the 2d and fails to suggest why you aren't).

wwfan
25-11-2007, 22:07
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by earmack:
Oh how I wish their was an edit function I'm constantly thinking of little addendum's the second I click 'post'. I think my problem is that I cannot separate real football and FM and i really need to get over myself.

Also do you find that your tactic/s(say a slightly attacking home tactic) works for most/every team/s, or is it very much one of those things where ever set of players/team needs a very specifically tweaked tactic? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I beleive that a general methodology combined with a few individually applied instructions should work. Tehre are certain things you must do at higher levels that you absolutely mustn't do at lower levels, but I would recommend system over individual, but with a few individual instructions to fine tune each tactic.

earmack
25-11-2007, 22:17
Thats interesting, I always emphasize individual instructions over team ones.
It may sound like I have no fun with the game but the truth is I'm generally quite successful and enjoy playing, its just with this release despite success I 'felt' I was missing too many chances, as you rightly pointed out thats not the right way to think about things.
You'll see me complaining a lot on these forums but thats just how I am when it comes to anything to do with football, if I'm/the team I support/the team I 'manage' (are)not winning I lose objectivity. I will try and use the full back scenario you suggested and I may even adopt a zonal marking system (even writing that makes me shudder).
Again many thanks for trying to help me and also for breaking up the mini-flame war that this thread had become.

wwfan
25-11-2007, 22:29
As an example:

A systematic approach with a 4-4-2 should see one MC staying back to offer defensive cover and one MC to become part of the attack. Thus, mentality and forward runs should remain constant throughout all 4-4-2s to keep this shape (although I have them both sitting back in counter-attacking formations). Shape should be the first tactical consideration.

However, defensive MCs have differing qualities. Some may be highly creative with great passing but poor shooting, whereas others may be fantastic dribblers who can bring the ball out of defence with ease, whereas others still might have great workrate, stamina and long shots. Logically changing these instructions within the overall system to allow for specific attributes should improve a tactic.

earmack
25-11-2007, 22:44
I see what your saying, generally I have 1 MC set to more defensive than the other one/two (depending on formation) and am always looking for the elusive
Carrick/Hargreaves combo(I don't use my center mids as attackers ala Lampard/Kaka but rather as deep lying big tacklers or pinpoint passers and preferably that combination).

Shape is always the first thing I think about, I'm always worrying that I'll have one player unbalanced compared to the rest of the team and sometimes in game I've noticed that sort of thing happening (e.g:One Midfielder not tracking back and forcing a defender out of position to close down). It would appear that generally speaking I'm not doing anything stupid (I kinda knew this as otherwise I'd of been relegated and sacked many times)but that I'm not reacting to a deficiency in my tactics for certain games. From now on I'll try to think of it thus: if we're not scoring somethings going wrong, we are not being 'cheated'.

wwfan
25-11-2007, 22:50
That's the first step. It is a humbling experience. I went through it two years ago with the release of 06. I thought the engine was fatally flawed until I (eventually) proved to myself it wasn't and it was my coneptualisation that was amiss. I had a similar experience with '07, but went through much less angst sorting that out as '06 had already provided me with a 'testing methodology' that I knew worked. I haven't played 08 enough yet, but I am assuming the process will reamin valid.

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves.

RSCA Belgian Blue
25-11-2007, 22:50
You can't win every game you have with loads of chances with 7-0 or 8-0. If you expect having loads of high scores, don't play Football Manager but well F*** Manager.

xouman
26-11-2007, 01:31
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

The Missed Shots 'Bug'

This only happens at higher levels with European quality sides. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In BSS and specially BSP I have had this problem lots of times. With my 4-1-3-2 I have lots of shoots to keep, but results are quite unpredictable. With 3-4-1-2, I allow lots of chances but my goal ratio is better for me and worse for rival.

As someone has said, tactics that create lots of chances seem somehow penalized :/

Jam Man
26-11-2007, 02:17
Whilst I dont have as big as a problem as others I do see what they mean about one on ones. Generally though I dont see games where I dominate and dont win though and my striker scored 38 goals last season...

Theres two issues here :

1. Theres too many one on ones, in a real game you rarely see pure one on one situations, in FM you get 5+

2. Strikers dont convert them, contrary to whats said above the ratio shouldnt be 1:1 or 1:1.5 thats absurd, but it should be 1:3 or 1:4 at very worse.

Its not down to what tactics you are using at that point, if you have created a one on one using whatever method then the only consideration is can the striker finish and Id say in these situations they arent lethal enough.

Using Freddy Eastwood at Championship level he can miss 4 one on ones a game easily which knowing how good he is its impossible.

One reason for missing so many is they shoot from 18-20 yards, a striker one on one with no defender near would take the ball in far closer.

BayernMB
26-11-2007, 02:21
I really don't see a point in some people stating - "It's down to your tactics"

If my player is alone in front of the GK inside penalty box, no defender near him and he just places the ball in opponent GK's hands (no deflection) and it happenes 3-4 times a game and the striker has high finishing, composure (Aguerro, Villa, Henry)) I really don't understant what it has to do with my tactics.

gbmiranda
26-11-2007, 07:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hairy Coo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Get better players making the shots or change your tactics </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Now thats advice which covers all bases </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this case the second part is almmost certainly correct.
Sure the creative part of his team is working well, but there's obviously a problem in the final third.

I'm going to guess that he's being too attacking, and too up-tempo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

FM have a lot of bugs... a lot of news making speculations, and you never fix it, and create new bugs, like this "long shoot" bug, and THIS IS A BUG, i'm losing for teams that have no division because a shoot 30 and them 2 times, and I make 1 goal, and them 30...

i will never more buy a FM, this is the first and the last time

Joor
26-11-2007, 07:45
I really dont have a shot on goal ratio problem..try a lower creative freedom for your players..yes even your big super star striker.
As you can see here im playing with milan and its only Kaka, seedorf and ronaldo who got 10 CF rest have 5 - this works for me .
27-19 (http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5518/50nh9.jpg)
25-17 (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6720/30sl6.jpg)
16-11 (http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2038/04wn3.jpg)
19-14 (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5923/13za7.jpg)

And one more pic from the parma game where you can see the SOT playerssot (http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/350/sot1zy0.jpg)

Joor
26-11-2007, 07:49
And my tactic is a 4-3-1-2 like this: 4312 (http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5602/milan4312hz3.jpg)

Everyone got longshoot on rare..but my forwards and kaka will still sometimes try it - maybe 1 or 2 times each match.

Stuyvesant
26-11-2007, 07:59
The problem isn't the SOT ratio IMO, it's the player's inability to convert those chances.

saberhagen83
26-11-2007, 08:07
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:
The Missed Shots 'Bug'

This only happens at higher levels with European quality sides. Why? Simply because the AI will play ultra-defensively and restrict space as much as possible. This leads to the Missed Shots 'Bug'. A lot of the chances created are hurried becasue the user tactic is not actually creating the quality of chance that the 2d seems to suggest. Players are snatching at chances because of poorly thought out tactics against ultra-defensive sides. This is not to say that the tactic is poor; rather it is poor against a certain type of formation. Most of you complaining about the Missed Shot 'Bug' don't see it against other big sides, because they don't play so defensively, and thus your world class players have the time and space to operate and thus play to their attributes.

The problem is in the representation of the match, rather than it being a bug. The 2d makes it impossible to see the actual quality of the chance, and the commentary doesn't help. The only measurement device is the percentage of shots to goals scored. If it is hovering around the 5% mark, then something is wrong tactically, and those experiencing it need to come to terms with that. Posting result after result doesn't convince the naysayers and hardly helps those experiencing the issue. Thinking about and experimenting with different tactical ideas might help though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm managing Arsenal and Eastbourne my self, and have complained about the amount of shots made and how little is put away. Watching the 2D in extended I find that especially Arsenal do create loads of chances, and most of them are really good. I've lost count how many 1-on-1 they've missed and how many clear chances they put more near the corner flag despite being more or less alone with the keeper straight infront of him inside the box. Rarely do the keeper need to move to save, and when the players finally put it in an open space they DO score. However, after the full patch, this is affecting the computer teams as well. It's silly how many chances are created (almost never under 30/game) but shots on goal are almost non-existant for both me and computer teams.

I have tried to play with low tempo and short passing, also high pressing on most of my players except CB's. This worked perfect on every FM game before 08. There has always been missed chances but never the amount I'm seeing in FM08. I can't remember how many tactics I have made or downlaoded that has not worked at all. I've finally found one that is really solid at the back, but scoring goals always is the same problem no matter tactic.

In BSS it's a mixed bag. They miss a whole lot of chances and put a whole lot of shots horribly wide. But there they shoot much more from outside the area (less quality to get infront of goal more often). While with Arsenal it's great chances inside the box most of the time put horribly wide or simply straight in the hands of the keeper. I mean they rarely have to work to save a shot, they simply just stand there accepting the ball. No matter what I have done nothing have worked the slightest to improve goalscoring. I don't expect every shot on goal to go in, but seriously the players could at least try to score not just shoot the balls straight at the keeper! It's one thing when the striker is under pressure from defenders, but it doesn't matter even if he is alone inside the area with plenty of time to hit the target.

Canabary
26-11-2007, 08:18
Say what? ... Shots on goal ratio is at least 80% fixed. Sure you get the occasional freak match, but usually thats because you don't base your tactics on the opposition. (England vs Finland,ignored tactics had 30 shots on goal 17 on target 2 in goal)

As for closing down. It's not divine, you won't have your defender ALWAYS closing down the opponent and ALWAYS stopping him. But it sure as heck happens more frequently than before. Lesser defenders (lower leagues) are usually not that good at decisions and mess up the closing down. (Watch a few conference matches in real life and you'll see)

As for long shots, I actually expect my strikers to attempt a long one every now and again, it's football. Several goals are scored from outside the box you know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Everyone I hear complaining just keeps coming out with "I had 30 shots and I didnt win" yet funnily enough, I dont hear you stating how many shots on target your best striker had and how many of those he converted.

So of those 30 shots, how many were on target? of those how many fell to players feet who had good finishing + composure? how many came off the head of people who had crap heading? how many were long shots from someone with awful long shooting?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You make an excellent point here.
Let's take my Portugal vs England match for instance.

I had 21 shots, 17 of which on target.
10 of which were testy shots from the likes of Neville, Hargreaves, Lampard and a few long ones from Gerrard.
5 of which were shots from Rooney, of which 1 was on target.
I now have 2 shots left.
Both shot by Owen. He scored on 1 of them, one was on his head (he missed) the other was a low ball past Ricardo.

Now taking in account the fact that Ricardo is far from a crappy goalkeeper, you'd easily assume that this sounds about right.
He's not about to be outsmarted by a weird angled long shot by Gerrard, nor Lampard (who is not in form)or even a Rooney just out of injury. An Owen (55 goals in 100 caps!) is bound to distort his record, which he did.

When we also see that Neville missed a penalty (I hated him for that for about 20 seconds, about the same time it took for Owen to score :P)

To the first poster. your tactic is flawed.. I'll leave it at that, oh and you can't just use "TEAM INSTRUCTIONS" for the team. Individuals need to know what they do too.

I'm currently on a 21 match unbeaten run, granted with England, but still. Winning the European championship and qualifying to the WCQ. I'm currently in the Confederations cup (What is this by the way?) Beat Italy 4-1, believed to lose. I've seen Rooney miss plenty shots. Heck I've even seen the master himself, Michael Owen miss a few goals. But I revise my tactics for the games and it seems to help...

Manutd + short + wide + average tempo + playmaker + attacking + closing down on OWN HALF ... honestly mate... It doesn't take a genius to spot the conflicting instructions...

Pompeyboyz
26-11-2007, 08:31
I have not read all the way through this thread but thin k I can give a little info on what I have read and what I have encountered in my games.

I have been playing with a tactic that creates anywhere upto 40 shots per game and the AI will only get a maximum of 10 or so.

Now I know that I don't watch upto 50 key highlights from any of the games I play and might get 10-15 to watch. So that means that there are loads of chance that are not 'Key' or basically rubbish chances.

I do find that teams play defensively against me and so the chances I do see are quite often longer shots and I get quite happy when one of my players puts in a 25 yard screamer. However I do get frustrated when shots are missed on the 6 yard box.

Also the chances team get against me are often great goals because the build up play has been great and would need to be as my defence is solid. So the AI only gets a few chances but they have to be good to score and so when they do they are good goals.

I do think there is a 'Long Shot Bug' but not to the extent that others seem to believe. I have tried making everyone of my players have Long Shots set to rarley and still they seem to do it too often and it might need something somewhere in the program that needs to be toned down. I'm not sure what it would be and that would be down to SI to know through all the games being sent to them of the ftp:

I will try to get a game that is full of long shots when long shooting should not be happening.

Silverx
26-11-2007, 09:37
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Everyone I hear complaining just keeps coming out with "I had 30 shots and I didnt win" yet funnily enough, I dont hear you stating how many shots on target your best striker had and how many of those he converted.

So of those 30 shots, how many were on target? of those how many fell to players feet who had good finishing + composure? how many came off the head of people who had crap heading? how many were long shots from someone with awful long shooting? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the problem imo at the moment is that players with good finishing are regularly finding good (i.e. one-on-one chances) and not scoring them not regularly enough (often shooting wide or at the keeper). irl most players will score (even including those who aren't top class strikers) because they have time to compose themselves, pick their spot, or round the keeper, whatever.

In FM, it seems they run all the way to the keeper then think 'oh wait, I should be thinking about what I'm gonna do here' and end up hitting it anywhere but the goal.

Canabary
26-11-2007, 09:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silverx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Everyone I hear complaining just keeps coming out with "I had 30 shots and I didnt win" yet funnily enough, I dont hear you stating how many shots on target your best striker had and how many of those he converted.

So of those 30 shots, how many were on target? of those how many fell to players feet who had good finishing + composure? how many came off the head of people who had crap heading? how many were long shots from someone with awful long shooting? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the problem imo at the moment is that players with good finishing are regularly finding good (i.e. one-on-one chances) and not scoring them not regularly enough (often shooting wide or at the keeper). irl most players will score (even including those who aren't top class strikers) because they have time to compose themselves, pick their spot, or round the keeper, whatever.

In FM, it seems they run all the way to the keeper then think 'oh wait, I should be thinking about what I'm gonna do here' and end up hitting it anywhere but the goal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How's your training schedual then? They are kinda important you know, same with non-playing staff and the whole morale aspect.

nukehim47
26-11-2007, 10:28
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Canabary:
Everyone I hear complaining just keeps coming out with "I had 30 shots and I didnt win" yet funnily enough, I dont hear you stating how many shots on target your best striker had and how many of those he converted.

So of those 30 shots, how many were on target? of those how many fell to players feet who had good finishing + composure? how many came off the head of people who had crap heading? how many were long shots from someone with awful long shooting?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You make an excellent point here.
Let's take my Portugal vs England match for instance.

I had 21 shots, 17 of which on target.
10 of which were testy shots from the likes of Neville, Hargreaves, Lampard and a few long ones from Gerrard.
5 of which were shots from Rooney, of which 1 was on target.
I now have 2 shots left.
Both shot by Owen. He scored on 1 of them, one was on his head (he missed) the other was a low ball past Ricardo.

Now taking in account the fact that Ricardo is far from a crappy goalkeeper, you'd easily assume that this sounds about right.
He's not about to be outsmarted by a weird angled long shot by Gerrard, nor Lampard (who is not in form)or even a Rooney just out of injury. An Owen (55 goals in 100 caps!) is bound to distort his record, which he did.

When we also see that Neville missed a penalty (I hated him for that for about 20 seconds, about the same time it took for Owen to score :P)

To the first poster. your tactic is flawed.. I'll leave it at that, oh and you can't just use "TEAM INSTRUCTIONS" for the team. Individuals need to know what they do too.

I'm currently on a 21 match unbeaten run, granted with England, but still. Winning the European championship and qualifying to the WCQ. I'm currently in the Confederations cup (What is this by the way?) Beat Italy 4-1, believed to lose. I've seen Rooney miss plenty shots. Heck I've even seen the master himself, Michael Owen miss a few goals. But I revise my tactics for the games and it seems to help...

Manutd + short + wide + average tempo + playmaker + attacking + closing down on OWN HALF ... honestly mate... It doesn't take a genius to spot the conflicting instructions...[/QUOTE]
posted before but look at this


http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9620/kievmatchstatsjk8.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4877/kievplayerstatsbc0.jpg

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1300/kievgoodchancesdi9.jpg

léé jónés
26-11-2007, 11:17
I still play Cm 01/02 with the latest updates. lot better, more fun the lot!

azonic
26-11-2007, 12:17
the occasional freak match is definitely acceptable. 3/4 of a season of freak matches is not. the members here wouldnt be complaining if its juz a single match. its the entire game they have been getting this so often and getting so frustrated that made they post threads like this. i too am getting frustrated at this version and i loved FM.

Silverx
26-11-2007, 13:11
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Canabary:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silverx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Everyone I hear complaining just keeps coming out with "I had 30 shots and I didnt win" yet funnily enough, I dont hear you stating how many shots on target your best striker had and how many of those he converted.

So of those 30 shots, how many were on target? of those how many fell to players feet who had good finishing + composure? how many came off the head of people who had crap heading? how many were long shots from someone with awful long shooting? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the problem imo at the moment is that players with good finishing are regularly finding good (i.e. one-on-one chances) and not scoring them not regularly enough (often shooting wide or at the keeper). irl most players will score (even including those who aren't top class strikers) because they have time to compose themselves, pick their spot, or round the keeper, whatever.

In FM, it seems they run all the way to the keeper then think 'oh wait, I should be thinking about what I'm gonna do here' and end up hitting it anywhere but the goal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How's your training schedual then? They are kinda important you know, same with non-playing staff and the whole morale aspect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shooting is already on High.

Still, shooting say being on high-medium rather than high shouldn't mean strikers turn into clueless idiots when faced with an one-on-one chance.

leeds_fan_1
26-11-2007, 13:56
well, i must admit i do agree theres a problem, but i've just tried what wwfan suggested, an im 4-1 against luton http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

George Graham
26-11-2007, 14:02
In an effort to find out the common denominator- can everybody who is getting this issue state what kind of way they are playing and at what level, as I feel this issue will only happen in certain situations.

Im playing as Billericay in League 2 and play a fast, direct, counter-attacking game and have this issue with both 451 and 442 formations.

Ter
26-11-2007, 14:21
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In an effort to find out the common denominator- can everybody who is getting this issue state what kind of way they are playing and at what level, as I feel this issue will only happen in certain situations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would be more helpful is for those who are having issues to log it in the bugs forum (preferably all in the same topic) with example pkm files uploaded to our ftp so that our testers can get a lot of different examples.

T-Bag
26-11-2007, 14:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:


Managing at Higher Levels is Difficult

If you have a world class team then it is more difficult to manage them.

Reasons:

1: You might not have the requisite reputation and thus players will not perform.

2: You do have the requisite reputation but haven't come to terms with the extra level of tactical knowledge required at the top level. This has only been an issue since 07 but is the major cause of the Missed Shotsd 'Bug'.

NB: I'm not trying to insult tactics here, just to give some advice. A lot of tactics are excellent until this scenario presents itself. It does require a different outlook to combat it.


The Missed Shots 'Bug'

This only happens at higher levels with European quality sides. Why? Simply because the AI will play ultra-defensively and restrict space as much as possible. This leads to the Missed Shots 'Bug'. A lot of the chances created are hurried becasue the user tactic is not actually creating the quality of chance that the 2d seems to suggest. Players are snatching at chances because of poorly thought out tactics against ultra-defensive sides. This is not to say that the tactic is poor; rather it is poor against a certain type of formation. Most of you complaining about the Missed Shot 'Bug' don't see it against other big sides, because they don't play so defensively, and thus your world class players have the time and space to operate and thus play to their attributes.

The problem is in the representation of the match, rather than it being a bug. The 2d makes it impossible to see the actual quality of the chance, and the commentary doesn't help. The only measurement device is the percentage of shots to goals scored. If it is hovering around the 5% mark, then something is wrong tactically, and those experiencing it need to come to terms with that. Posting result after result doesn't convince the naysayers and hardly helps those experiencing the issue. Thinking about and experimenting with different tactical ideas might help though.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi, I have read all of your posts in this thread and over the years and have a lot of respect for your views.

However i'm not sure (and I mean i'm not sure!) if I agree with you or not. I fully agree that the 2d pitch isn't really representing how easy or difficult the chance is. I also agree with the general gist of what you are saying, that it is harder to play with a better team - in fact this is what i've spent most of this thread complaining about. I think where I take issue is the fact that the "poor" teams become so lethal in front of goal. Right I have 30+ shots because they are playing defensive - they are not easy attempts and I score 1 goal. Okay that is fine - but explain to me why the AI will nearly always score with their chances ? Let me take an example of a match in my current game. Me (top) vs Bottom (won 2 games out of 20) - before the game I already know what is going to happen so I save it. Sure enough, I have 17 shots, they have 2 and I draw 2-2. **** happens.... but because i've been testing this I loaded the game up, played the match again and almost the same thing happens again. I don't mind so much missing the chances, I don't mind so much the AI scores with those chances they get - but why is it so difficult to beat the poor teams ?

I take on board what you are saying about them playing defensively but generally the only games I lose each season are against teams at the bottom of the league. If i'm away to one of the top 3 I rub my hands together with glee knowing i'll smash them. As soon as I take on bottom of the league or a League 2 team I know I will lose. I've experienced this from FM07 to FM08 using many different tactics over the time. As I say I really do take on board your comments but I just cannnot accept that tactics which work against every single team will fail against the worst teams in the game.

BayernMB
26-11-2007, 14:59
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BayernMB:
I really don't see a point in some people stating - "It's down to your tactics"

If my player is alone in front of the GK inside penalty box, no defender near him and he just places the ball in opponent GK's hands (no deflection) and it happenes 3-4 times a game and the striker has high finishing, composure (Aguerro, Villa, Henry)) I really don't understant what it has to do with my tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A bit stupid quoting myself, but well...

You see my problems, while playing a pre-patch game. I started a new game and whole match engine looks very different. I'm even using the same tactics in my new game and strikers score much more when facing the keeper 1-1.

diontheace
26-11-2007, 15:01
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NickBlues:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NickBlues:
fix your tactics http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should I fix a working tactic that creates 30 shots on goal??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hahahaha thats the greatest answer EVER!
did you score 30 goals? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

26-11-2007, 16:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:
Managing at Lower Levels is Easy
The Missed Shots 'Bug'

This only happens at higher levels with European quality sides. Why? Simply because the AI will play ultra-defensively and restrict space as much as possible. This leads to the Missed Shots 'Bug'. A lot of the chances created are hurried becasue the user tactic is not actually creating the quality of chance that the 2d seems to suggest. Players are snatching at chances because of poorly thought out tactics against ultra-defensive sides. This is not to say that the tactic is poor; rather it is poor against a certain type of formation. Most of you complaining about the Missed Shot 'Bug' don't see it against other big sides, because they don't play so defensively, and thus your world class players have the time and space to operate and thus play to their attributes.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true, I have been managing in the BSP and it happens there!

McDoul
26-11-2007, 16:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
... not been able to play since I first purchased it (October). Waited and waited for weeks and weeks for a decent patch to fix things. But still unable to play... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny how thousands upon thousands of us are doing just fine then.... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"unable to play" ROFL http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

superalex
26-11-2007, 16:41
Could one of the many on this thread who are not having any trouble at all with shots on target/goal ratio please upload one of their tactics. Surely uploading one tactic to disprove this theory is far more sensible than people uploading hundreds of games.

macdyne73
26-11-2007, 17:03
My 2 cents.

I think part of the problem in this game is that the 2D match engine isn't clear enough for the player to pick up on what is going wrong.

I've experienced my share of the too-many-shots-on-goals problem too. However..

I remember reading a thread somewhere in the Tactics forum describing the "counter intuitive" nature of the FM match engine.

Consider an example;

I manage Chelsea FC and I'm playing a team in the bottom three at home. It's halftime and I'm murdering them. Many attempts, longshots, one on ones, set pieces etc. But... no goals.

Most people would boost their attacking mindset in the 2nd half to generate even more chances. This is the correct thing to do isn't it?

Apparently not. The better thing to do is to actually BACK OFF (less attacking and/or lower tempo and deeper def line) and give your opponent some ball time.

I've watched games for the full 45 minutes per half and it seems that if you attack a much weaker team too much (i.e many, many shots) they pack their box and defend. Your team is so intent on attacking that you will be very vulnerable to quick counters and concede from your opponents one or two chances.

Happened quite a lot before and like many posters here, I thought that maybe something's wrong with the game.

After reading the counter intuitive thread, these days if I notice the many-shots-but-no- goals problem, I tell the team to back off even up to the extent of lowering mentality and switching on counter attack.

Is this realistic? I'm not sure.

Anyway, this is what works for me so it might not work for others. Also bear in mind this is not a super tactic and doesn't work all the time. It helps thought.

Sorry, no screens and no uploads since I'm at work right now http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Having said all this, I do agree that the match engine needs more tweaking. I think the root of the problem for many people isn't "clear" enough.

And listen to what wwfan says. The boy knows what he's talking about...

macdyne73
26-11-2007, 17:07
Arghh, can't edit posts:-

"Having said all this, I do agree that the match engine needs more tweaking. I think the root of the problem for many people is that the match engine isn't "clear" enough.

Sorry for the mistake.

sturrockisourking
26-11-2007, 17:14
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In an effort to find out the common denominator- can everybody who is getting this issue state what kind of way they are playing and at what level, as I feel this issue will only happen in certain situations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would be more helpful is for those who are having issues to log it in the bugs forum (preferably all in the same topic) with example pkm files uploaded to our ftp so that our testers can get a lot of different examples. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd just like to know why this wasn't noticed during testing? the patch shouldn't have been released like this as this seems like a problem to many people and they are now going to have to wait until january/february to get it sorted out.

chopo
26-11-2007, 17:45
Hats off to everyone who has put a lot of effort into a solution to this problem but the point remains, the problem shouldn't exist. I'm not giving it the 'wot a joke SI iz' stuff as it's been oft repeated and helps nobody but I am more than a little unhappy with this aspect of the game.

Thunder God
26-11-2007, 17:54
For what it’s worth here’s my opinion…

I’ve just come back from my mate’s house where we’ve been playing FM08 (with the latest patch). We are both experienced CM/FM games and know plenty about how to set up some sensible tactics etc. The tactics I used over the course of half a season were logical and straightforward and after watching a handful of games in full there are some issues that are obvious.

Firstly though, as far as we could tell there really is no long shot issue. That can be well managed via limiting who is allowed on the pitch to take long shots but it is painfully obvious that there are some issues with the way the patch has tweaked one-on-ones.

I’ve seen some arguments on here that the match engine doesn’t really allow for a gamer to see the detail of what’s happening and that the shots to goals ratios are accurate and that’s fine, but I think the problem is coming from an over abundance of one-on-ones. Realistically imo there are rarely as many one-on-ones as I’ve seen in this game and the engine is making a mockery of that scenario to remain in line with a sensible shots to goals ratio. Therefore forwards nine times out of ten simply strike the ball at the keeper weakly, almost as if he was passing it back to him.

A few solutions we came across to reduce the appearance of these dodgy one-on-ones was to a) reduce our teams attacking mentality a little. This seemed to open up a better variety of goal scoring chances and b) if the forward is capable have him run with the ball. He tends to produce better angles for shots this way as well as running into space with more variety.

It really doesn’t surprise me that so many players are complaining that they are having 20 shots 12 on target and scoring once while the opposition get 2 shots and somehow manage to score. I think the vast majority of players want to go out and attack and this is why you are seeing such a repetition.

There are a number of detractors in this topic who argue that there really is no big issue with one-on-ones but I strongly disagree. The maths work out reasonably well but the visual experience is what is causing the issue.

thebigman1985
26-11-2007, 18:05
anyone else notice post patch how bad corners are if you set a tm to near post flick on, just heads wide for me from impossible angles

wwfan
26-11-2007, 19:24
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ianw22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:
Managing at Lower Levels is Easy
The Missed Shots 'Bug'

This only happens at higher levels with European quality sides. Why? Simply because the AI will play ultra-defensively and restrict space as much as possible. This leads to the Missed Shots 'Bug'. A lot of the chances created are hurried becasue the user tactic is not actually creating the quality of chance that the 2d seems to suggest. Players are snatching at chances because of poorly thought out tactics against ultra-defensive sides. This is not to say that the tactic is poor; rather it is poor against a certain type of formation. Most of you complaining about the Missed Shot 'Bug' don't see it against other big sides, because they don't play so defensively, and thus your world class players have the time and space to operate and thus play to their attributes.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true, I have been managing in the BSP and it happens there! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I managed to get a couple of hours in at BSS level and I agree, it does. That makes things much more difficult throughout the levels, but may maean that the tactical jump between divisions is less severe. Same advice applies though. Open space, get wide players forward. Free roles and slow tempo for that level I'm less sure about, but rest assured I'll post what I find when I've found it.

Jimbokav1971
26-11-2007, 19:44
wwfan

I know from reading some of your previous posts that you often talk sense and that you were highly adept at creating tactics for FM07.

Perhaps I could ask if you could be slightly less specific in terms of tactical instructions that you use. I'm interested to read your posts, but I don't want to benefit from your tactical insight if that makes sense .

I haven't won a game yet and I would prefer that if and when I turn it around it is because I have worked something out, not because I have read how to do it on here.

Thanks http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

Jimbokav1971
26-11-2007, 19:45
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
In an effort to find out the common denominator- can everybody who is getting this issue state what kind of way they are playing and at what level, as I feel this issue will only happen in certain situations.

Im playing as Billericay in League 2 and play a fast, direct, counter-attacking game and have this issue with both 451 and 442 formations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would prefer for less tactics to be discussed if possible.

Ackter
26-11-2007, 19:51
Sorry Jimbo, but to get to the bottom of this we need to talk in-depth tactics and attributes.

earmack
26-11-2007, 19:54
WWF: I tried what you said and lost 5-2 in the first game , getting raped down the flanks. However the next 4 games I won with a conversion rate close to 1/4 (Goals/shots-which is much better than the 1/8-10 I'd been experiencing), so maybe my team just needed one game to adjust(or maybe West Brom were on steroids). Zonal marking brings about some interesting issues but I think I've got a grip on it now (prays). I'm gonna stick with it when I think we are clearly the better team as I definitely noticed my full backs pulling defenders out of position.

earmack
26-11-2007, 19:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
wwfan

I know from reading some of your previous posts that you often talk sense and that you were highly adept at creating tactics for FM07.

Perhaps I could ask if you could be slightly less specific in terms of tactical instructions that you use. I'm interested to read your posts, but I don't want to benefit from your tactical insight if that makes sense .

I haven't won a game yet and I would prefer that if and when I turn it around it is because I have worked something out, not because I have read how to do it on here.

Thanks http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could always just ignore any advice given, or not actually read it (its rather obvious its advice when he says 'heres some advice'. I know this isn't the tactics forum but all his advice is not overly specific.

kennec
26-11-2007, 20:54
i think game is very fun with 8.01.

HUGE diffence now. i play an zdenek zeman inspered 4-3-3 narrow with lazio. i bought one players first year (m fernadez). i have hige succes and have very gun.

i think kye is either play deep and defend and counter with big gap between midfield and defence. or an all out pressing with high defence and tigh push up team are the ways to go.

only thing i dont like so far is my players wasting all freee kicks. shooting from huge range.

kennec
26-11-2007, 20:55
hige and gun lol


sounds like chinese. should be huge and fun.

rashidi1
26-11-2007, 20:58
I'm going to toss my hat in this one...

1. I have found it possible to create an attacking tactic and still create loads of chances. I usually have a guideline for all my tactics..there is a ratio that I use to determine whether a tactic is doing good or not and that is the Goals/SOT ratio. Lets say the percentage is X. I find that when I compare that ratio to some of the more successful clubs in the game or on FML I'm usually quite close. When I first started playing I used to average 5% below the average and it was something I didn't like. So to increase it I did one of several things.

I'm going to try really hard not to go too indepth...


a. Getting more players into attacking positions.

b. Using interesting variations of arrows

c. And more importantly, I had to get the ball and the player behind the defensive line quickly.

d. Having a 6 on 6 attack and also having variations of the same tactic that would allow penetration down the flanks and through the centre.

This would allow me to have some advantage over the AI at all times.

The results of these have been encouraging. I do find that my ratio increases with better players.....BUT there have been times when I can generate 62% possession, 30 shots on goal 20 on target and only 1 goal. Like the rest here, sometimes I get really upset because these chances are breakthrough, clear cut one on ones.

Perhaps I don't get as frustrated as others because more online and I'm used to seeing really strange formations, and it can be annoying at times. With FM2008 I'm reasonably happy and I can take these odd games as a one off odd occurrence.

I do notice that people seem to be more demanding, they want every clear cut chance to be a goal, or I could be wrong. Personally speaking I do wish that I could score more, but its not a game breaker for me.

One thing though I disagree completely that this is somehow related to closing down and any mysterious long shot bug.

kevin_chn
26-11-2007, 21:29
could anyone please explain to me what is "10: FWRs often for FBs to overload the box and increase opportunity of uncontested cross.
"?

I cannot understand the first part of the sentence...

THANKS http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

earmack
26-11-2007, 22:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kevin_chn:
could anyone please explain to me what is "10: FWRs often for FBs to overload the box and increase opportunity of uncontested cross.
"?

I cannot understand the first part of the sentence...

THANKS http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It means set forward runs to 'often' (under individual instructions) for your full backs (wide defenders) so that you have more players in and around the oppositions penalty area.

kevin_chn
27-11-2007, 03:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by earmack:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kevin_chn:
could anyone please explain to me what is "10: FWRs often for FBs to overload the box and increase opportunity of uncontested cross.
"?

I cannot understand the first part of the sentence...

THANKS http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It means set forward runs to 'often' (under individual instructions) for your full backs (wide defenders) so that you have more players in and around the oppositions penalty area. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks~ and wwfan's tactic tips are really helpful!

wwfan
27-11-2007, 04:57
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
wwfan

I know from reading some of your previous posts that you often talk sense and that you were highly adept at creating tactics for FM07.

Perhaps I could ask if you could be slightly less specific in terms of tactical instructions that you use. I'm interested to read your posts, but I don't want to benefit from your tactical insight if that makes sense .

I haven't won a game yet and I would prefer that if and when I turn it around it is because I have worked something out, not because I have read how to do it on here.

Thanks http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do appreciate that, but I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. To not talk tactics fails to defuse the situation, as 'it's your tactics' only causes widespread resentment. I have to explain why, to a certain extent, or else I'm failing to be helpful and just adding to the frustrations. I'd much prefer to do it in the tactics forum, but GQ is where the flame wars are.

If you think this is detailed, you should see what I write in T&TT. This is nothing in comparison.

However, as a short-term fix I suggest blocking me, or not reading this thread. I can promise not to talk tactics throughout he rest of GQ and only offer (general) advice in this thread. Fair deal?

Fred_the_Red
27-11-2007, 05:01
I find it stange that the game becomes more realistic playing a lower creative freedom. Anything higher then 10 the game becomes a shoot at will fest.

jsl
27-11-2007, 11:34
In my previous 15 games it's taken me on average 10.5 shots to score a goal, against the AI's 6.4 shots per goal http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

benkezza
27-11-2007, 12:15
sorry if this has been said,

regarding "closing down somtimes works" moan,

as i dont have the energy to read through 7 pages, but its realistic, why should your closing down work all the time?! if it did then whats the point in the game? might aswell win everything, it happens in real life, players lose concentration! get over it

Sheddy
27-11-2007, 13:42
An average of 23 chances 12 on target per game is too high. Football does not create this many opportunities on average. Defending was fixed in the Beta patch. It is not fixed in the "real" patch. I have no time for SI "fans". I bought a game in October, it still does not work. The whoel thing is a farce. Advise to SI - Next time you release a game make sure it is finished because you reputation is completely knackered after this one. Message to geeks who go on about tactical issues, do you really think real life managers have to go into things in so much detail. No chance. The best managers will provide succint instructions, uncomplicated (footballers are not the brightest I would suggest). The game has gone to far, it hides behind stupid interpretations of what certain aspects of tactics may need. Basically, the engine is rubbish and has become so flawed through constant fixes it is now impossible to fix and recreate anything like real football. The game needs to start again with a new engine instead of rehashing the old one constantly in the hope it will look better each patch. Changes only lead to errors elsewhere that get fixed and lead to errors elsewhere etc etc. The game is broken, should never have been released and is a poor simulation as the real key part of the game (the matches) now look nothing like and play nothing like actual football.

marcconeley
27-11-2007, 14:30
I've read this post with interest.
I developed a good tactic which worked well with the boxed version.

I then applied the beta patch and everything was still OK in terms of shots/goals etc.

What I should say now is that my tactic is quite attack minded, and my team had scored the most goals in the league, and conceded the least.

Now, I dont believe that it's just co-incidence, but after the official patch the following has definitely happened:

- Team has dried up when it comes to scoring (drastically).
- Before patch, I was dominating games and scoring at least 1 goal per game.
- Since the patch I've played 15 games and scored just 7 with the same players and tactics.
- Defence is the same though (maybe better). In those 15 games 7 have finished 0-0.
- Only once have I conceded more than 1.
- Only once have I scored 2 or more.
- I've dominated nearly all games in terms of possession and shots.
- On average I have about 20 shots per game with half on target (which is about the same as before the official patch).

Therefore the only difference is now less goals actually go in.

Now I've tried tweaking the tactic to make it more attacking, and still the problem persists.
To such an extent that all my strikers are now suffering a lack of form.

This can't be explained by a loss of form, or low confidence I am afraid, or poor tactics or bad strikers. The patch has definitely had this affect.

The questions is: is it a "bug" or is it just a case of the patch "fixing" something that now makes my good tactic poop? (excuse the word ;-).

It seems I am not the only one experiencing this, which makes me think it's the former...

Divided opinion it seems.
SI?

Cheers guys.

nymanr
28-11-2007, 13:35
Well i to have had this problem that OP has taken up.

Don't really now what to believe about the theories about the 2D engine not being able to represent the actual quality of the chance of the shot. When i see my W.class striker be 3-4 times per game alone against the goalie i expect him to convert at least one of them. If i can't trust the representation then what is the point with the game? How am i supposed to know what is going wrong in different ares of my team if the 2D engine is wrong?

Nevertheless i read through this thread and some other in T&TT and have taken up some of suggestions mentioned by wwfan and others to make changes to my tactic.

Result.

My number of chances per game went down but SOT/goals % did get much better. Rooney went from 5% of SOT going in to a 22% average. So now my strikers where finally scoring.

Problem is this change came with i total change of play from my part and the team was not playing the quick creative football that i want them to play. More importantly all beautiful goals where still missing. All goals where scored from rebounds. Strikers where still not able to score from 1&1, but now they found them self always in the right place at the right time for the easy goals.

Players inability to score is also noticeable in other areas. During my season i had ( 1 ) goal scored that according to the 2D representation was a long shot.

Same season was not able to score a single goal from a direct FK, and only scored 4 goals in all competitions from corners.

I was still wining all my games ans despite playing a very Attacking formation opposition was not able to score against me. Only top teams where able to score against me, so the AI is also effected.

Remember reading threads about people complaining about there being to many goals in the beta patch stage and then seeing in the change list that player finishing had been toned down for the full patch. I never noticed high scoring games in the beta patch. Now i much rather have the games score a bit more if that would give a more realistical spread in type of goals scored. Now it is just boring watching the same type of goals being scored over and over. Felt that the balance was superb in beta patch (except for corners) what came to different type of goals scored. Now it seems that there is only one way to play the game at a high level to get the players to score even slightly from the positions that you want.

Don't think that toning down player ability to score was a good idea. Limiting number of chances would have been a much better way to go.

wwfan
28-11-2007, 15:20
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My number of chances per game went down but SOT/goals % did get much better. Rooney went from 5% of SOT going in to a 22% average. So now my strikers where finally scoring.

Problem is this change came with i total change of play from my part and the team was not playing the quick creative football that i want them to play. More importantly all beautiful goals where still missing. All goals where scored from rebounds. Strikers where still not able to score from 1&1, but now they found them self always in the right place at the right time for the easy goals.

Players inability to score is also noticeable in other areas. During my season i had ( 1 ) goal scored that according to the 2D representation was a long shot </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


In theory that should be fixable as well. It certainly was in 07. My original uploaded tactics were heavily criticised for being too Big Sam, but later versions were more flowing and flair-based, and produced wonderful goals. Now you are beginnign to socre one in four, it is just a matter of logically implementing steps to make the tactic more stylish. Walk before you can run.

totti_is_god
28-11-2007, 17:08
I've followed these arguments closely and have very much appreciated the help provided by those that have developed ways to deal with the problem. Despite making efforts to combat this annoyance within my own game, and seeing varying levels of success, ultimately my real issue is something that cannot be defined scientifically. I simply think that the match engine looks poor if judged as a conceivable game of football, and furthermore is not effective in showing the user what is going wrong. Even some that have made efforts to support the people who are struggling have admitted as much. Furthermore, as noted by Sheddy, diagnosis of tactical problems often seems linked to cure in such incredibly tenous ways, as though tactical complexity as part of the search for realism is having the opposite effect. No match engine has been perfect, true, but I seem to recall having been distinctly happier with the final version of FM07 than I have been with this one. On an aside, if this were real football, I think I'd be making headlines for the number of rebounds my team scores.

Joor
28-11-2007, 17:28
What I really hate is that the AI knows how to get strikers to perform and not miss 5 out of 6 one on ones.
So there must be some tactical way for us to make our striker stop wasting those easy sitters right?
I just cant find it atm. Did a quick test in the semi final vs man utd, and im milan - very even in match odds before the game. I played the game 10 times, and man utd won every single one of them http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
4-0 4-1 5-1 3-1 2-1 1-0 3-1 5-1 4-1 and 2-0. I tried all media comments and all teamtalk variations before match, but we still cant win - even tho on average we have 15 sot or more(slow tempo or fast it doesnt matter).
Wide formation, narrow, high creative freedom or low..mixed mentality, high or low. Deep defensive line..man marking key players..nothing worked - man utd still won. And its funny, it was either Tevez or Rooney who always got MoM. 1 chance 1 goals..maybe 2:1. Most of the games Utd didnt even have more than 10 SOT.

Im frustrated right now http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

wwfan
28-11-2007, 17:30
Are you at home or away?

bflaff
28-11-2007, 18:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:
Regarding the 'can't score/concede too often with a great squad' I had this response from an American user in '07.

What I did find remarkable, however, was how substantial differences in game play can flow from minor tactical deviations.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definitely agree with that. One thing I noticed in 07 was that if your tactics were wrong for the team you were playing against, you'd see your players doing all kinds of inexplicable things on the 2D. Tactics need a proper balance, and without it, everyone runs around like a chicken without its head.

BJG123
29-11-2007, 02:29
For me it seems to be a specific problem with one on ones, in my current game I have two players I created (finishing 20, composure 20, and finishing 18, composure 19), Rooney (18,17), Tevez (19,19), Ronaldo (17,17) and Anderson (16,17) as my 6 man attack, yet despite creating a plethora of one on one chances, nearly every single one of my goals comes from a free kick, a long shot, or most commonly, a rebound from one of my missed one on ones. It's bloody annoying because the player it affects most is your striker because he's the one missing the one on ones, whilst others pick up rebounds.

PaulC
29-11-2007, 02:48
For my part....I responded to a post on this issue in here. (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4552047463)

Jimbokav1971
29-11-2007, 03:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:
wwfan

I know from reading some of your previous posts that you often talk sense and that you were highly adept at creating tactics for FM07.

Perhaps I could ask if you could be slightly less specific in terms of tactical instructions that you use. I'm interested to read your posts, but I don't want to benefit from your tactical insight if that makes sense .

I haven't won a game yet and I would prefer that if and when I turn it around it is because I have worked something out, not because I have read how to do it on here.

Thanks http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do appreciate that, but I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. To not talk tactics fails to defuse the situation, as 'it's your tactics' only causes widespread resentment. I have to explain why, to a certain extent, or else I'm failing to be helpful and just adding to the frustrations. I'd much prefer to do it in the tactics forum, but GQ is where the flame wars are.

If you think this is detailed, you should see what I write in T&TT. This is nothing in comparison.

However, as a short-term fix I suggest blocking me, or not reading this thread. I can promise not to talk tactics throughout he rest of GQ and only offer (general) advice in this thread. Fair deal? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You must be joking if you think I'm going to start blocking articulate & intelligent posters. I have more than enough on my list as it is.

I see your point and I appreciate that it's in less detail than it would be in T&TGF. I guess I'll try and keep out of this thread for a while then as things are hopefully worked out, and then pop my head in fleetingly to see what the results have been.

Good luck finding a solution http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

Fred_the_Red
29-11-2007, 04:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
For my part....I responded to a post on this issue in here. (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4552047463) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its good that you finally posted a response and finally can see it maybe a bug. Although the natural occurance is another angle to look at it.

marcconeley
29-11-2007, 13:25
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
For my part....I responded to a post on this issue in here. (http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/4552047463) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers Paul. Interesting reading.
For your info, I did find a solution by tweaking tactic. My original tactic was narrow, "2 clicks deeper than normal" defensive line, and mixed closing down.

Basically I pushed my defensive line up, pushed closing down up, and moved attacking mentality 2-clicks up from where it was. Result: Massive difference to performance and goals per game. Same number of shots, just more are going in - and conceding the same amount as before the patch. My problem solved.

My thinking is that the "closing down" tweak that was implemented in the patch had a dramatic affect on my tactics.

Maybe this is why there's been so many threads about this topic?- Some tactics were effected more than others by the patch. Teams that were "flying" pre-patch hit had a severe lack of form/goals after the patch for no obvious reason - and the patch got blamed.

Really, same players. Same team. But very different results after making these very simple changes.

That's football I guess! lol

I am happy again http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Warrenwwr
29-11-2007, 18:06
i just replayed the 2nd game of the season 4 times, and the opposing keeper got MOM in all four. all ending 0-0. i tried 3 formations, made several tweaks etc.

i don't usually reload games, but i randomly chose this one to develop some formations for the rest of the season. but this game seems destined to end 0-0.

i'm chelsea and opponents are Derby. they played 3 premiership games before this one, all ending in 0-0, including one against man Utd at old trafford. so i 'm aware of what they're about. so i attack consistently. i hit them from wings, briliant crosses to drogba, over bar or at keeper. ballack orchestrates from the middle, with their dc's playing like cannavaro + nesta. my pirlo hits free kicks which hit the post or keeper saves. sheva actually missed a penalty in one of the games at the 79th minute. the list goes on.

it definitely is not because of my tactics as i'm getting great chances to win. i get an average of 9 -10 shots on goal and 8-9 missed, so this is not a 25-30 shot rant.

it just seems that i don't have enough luck to win this game. if i didn't reload it, i would have drawn and moved on. i just hate that chelsea got unlucky on this day for each reload, while derby played the match of their lives for each reload. I hope someone read this and sympathizes.

EpiC2z
30-11-2007, 01:28
i dont understand how an 1 on 1 chance has got to do with tactics. damn this baffles me.

from what i notice, this game is all about trial and error, and not about what the beauty of football should be.
its a damn guessing game.

but hey, i still enjoy putting up my galacticos http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tony Dolby
30-11-2007, 02:18
The 'shots on target' stat is quite a poor indicator of the quality of those chances. A poorly stuck optimistic 30 yarder counts the same as a point blank shot blocked by the goalie.

I think there was definitely a problem with the amount of chances being created in the beta patches so the strikers' finishing has been toned down. The post from Paul seems to confirm this.

Surely the problem lies with the unrealistic number of chances being created not the finishing power of strikers. When looking at the match in Full mode it is quite apparent that BSN teams are playing football that is of an almost international standard.

Forty yard first time passes flicked with the outside of the boot are commonplace.

If fewer chances were created by a combination of better defending and toning down the vision and passing ability of lower league midfielders, then the finishing power of strikers could be put back to pre patch levels.

A typical 1-1 draw in my experience of watching live football could consist of 4 very good chances each and maybe half a dozen 'half chances', certainly not 30 chances each and 6 one-on-ones.

Themistofelis
30-11-2007, 02:21
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EpiC2z:
i dont understand how an 1 on 1 chance has got to do with tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have the same problem understanding this

Tony Dolby
30-11-2007, 02:31
It hasn't got anything to do with tactics as far as I can work out. There was some talk about slowing tempo but I remain to be convinced.

SI have admitted that they have lowered the finishing power of strikers to reduce the number of goals.

What they should have done is addressed the cause of the problem.

The only consolation is that the AI teams seem to be affected too.

George Graham
30-11-2007, 03:42
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tony Dolby:
It hasn't got anything to do with tactics as far as I can work out. There was some talk about slowing tempo but I remain to be convinced.

SI have admitted that they have lowered the finishing power of strikers to reduce the number of goals.

What they should have done is addressed the cause of the problem.

The only consolation is that the AI teams seem to be affected too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree- although slowing tempo does work, I dont agree that this is particularly realistic its just a workaround.

Why? Well when I was cursed by the bug my team were creating miriads of 1 on 1 chances where my single quick striker would get in easily behind the defence with direct balls over the top and due to slow reactions from surrounding defenders would find themselves 10 yards clear in all directions but would either pass to their keeper or inexplicably go wide and allow defenders to catch up. Now some on here would have you believe that this is not a quality chance and that is why slower tempo is better.

IMO thats a load of rubbish- that chance is far better than any of the slowly carved out chances I manage with a slow tempo, yet even though my players are easily closed and marked I score more goals with a better percentage of chances being converted.

It doesnt make any kind of sense and does not reflect real life at all where a 1v1 chance is a golden opportunity, whereas in FM its not.

You just have to look at the way the best teams in England play- Mourinho himself said that the key element in scoring was a quick transition between defence and attack, with the ball being delivered quickly into danger areas and meaning the defending (previously the attacking team) are unprepared and not able to set themselves to defend, thus creating gaps and space.

This to me is what I was doing in FM- yet the engine and the thinking behind the way it works in FM doesnt seem to follow how the modern game works.

delibey
30-11-2007, 04:21
When a player is through on goal, he's always expected to score. I think conversion rates for one-on-ones are around %25 on average. But this doesn't mean a player will score on out of four chances. It doesn't mean he can't score two consecutive chances either. Slow tempo won't change that. And I don't see why slow tempo creates better chances. Most good chances happen after quick direct balls to the forwards and by leaving them one-on-one with a defender or the keeper. You play a slow tempo, the opposition gets behind the ball. How do you expect to create clear cut chances when there are 9 players between you and the goal?

Warrenwwr
30-11-2007, 05:17
the only issue i have is that teams seem to break each other down too easily. irl, there may be only 2-4 good chances in a match. in an open game, 7-9 etc etc. which is why when looking at a match irl, and a chance is not taken, loud groans emanate. they are that hard to come by.

in fm08, my team consistently gets through the defence. the oposition, regardless of their lack in quality, can break my defence as well. get past terry...atrocious.

it's the 'DC with direct passing' syndrome. stats (other than physical) just do not seem to count much, which is why my team of athletes with 17-20 for physical stats, and technical and mental stats of less than 5, beat the likes of juve, milan etc.

Fred_the_Red
30-11-2007, 06:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EpiC2z:
i dont understand how an 1 on 1 chance has got to do with tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have the same problem understanding this </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thinking is using slower tempo increases a 1 on 1 being scored as this allows players to think there to play the ball or how to score pass the keeper.

George Graham
30-11-2007, 08:38
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EpiC2z:
i dont understand how an 1 on 1 chance has got to do with tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have the same problem understanding this </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thinking is using slower tempo increases a 1 on 1 being scored as this allows players to think there to play the ball or how to score pass the keeper. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but that thinking is FM thinking not how it works irl.

IRL 1 on 1s tend to be created through quick moves not a slow buildup.

McDoul
30-11-2007, 16:23
IRL a well taken shot with patience ios oft better than the illconsidered snapshot so seems realistic enough.

starry
30-11-2007, 17:55
Come on man, if one or two guys is complaining about this. Maybe there is nothing wrong with the game. But if so many people at once complain about the game having the exact same problem.

Its gotta be something more than simply just tactics. The Si team gotta really stop denying things and really start looking into this genuine problem.

For the minority who are furiously defending SI, are u using small teams? Because we basically faces most of the problems facing inferior teams.

McDoul
30-11-2007, 18:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by starry:
we basically faces most of the problems facing inferior teams. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As do I, but since Paul has said it's being looked at we'll likely see it fixed in 8.0.2 around February time.

It's not a showstopper in my opinion, just getting on with what is essentially a game after all,

SmurfDude
30-11-2007, 18:31
I've spent today playing most of a season. I'm afraid I've about had enough of the game with the latest patch. Far too many 1 vs 1 chances are hit right at the keeper, and for me atleast, that does make the game unplayable.

Since the games release I've tried so hard to remain patient and stick at it, but like so many other people here, I've finally snapped. For the first time I can actually say I understand why there are so many threads with people moaning, and that saddens me, because I wish I could say FM08 is the best literation of the series so far, but when it causes so much frustration, that makes it impossible to be considered the best, in my book anyway.

The closing down bug was far less annoying than this, so it's back to the beta patch, because I do really like the rest of what FM08 has to offer.

FcPoliFan
30-11-2007, 18:35
I have a serious problem regarding one on ones. It seems incredibly difficult to score in such instances, as the striker almost always shoots directly at the goalie. I mean ok, it's not like one on ones are surely goals, but I'm completely sick of so many one on ones being wasted by good players - and almost all in the same manner.

But this is about the only thing that really bugs me at this point.

McDoul
30-11-2007, 18:47
Question is, will we see a fix before February?

EpiC2z
01-12-2007, 01:33
this game was made to replicate a real life soccer management game.
slowing down the tempo will increase the chances of beating a goalie in 1 on 1 is totally irrelevent.
when you're 1on1 with a keeper. a couple of things come to light irl, composure, technique and abit of luck. not but slowing down the tempo. who gives a hoot bout tempo when you're 1on1. imaging yourself in a 1on1 situation, will you still think of tempo? no, its all about the players capabilities and choices. not slowing down the tempo, cmon. this is atrocious.

what about at times, when you have a 2v1 situation? instead of squaring the ball to the open player. the player will instead shoot. irregardless of whether he misses or not, will the stats of that single player come into play? decisions, composure etc.
im sure irl if the player did shoot and miss, he would get hell from the manager. my point is, its shocking how SI sees the game to be AT TIMES. then again its still a great game.
hope im not contradicting myself.

Dart1234
01-12-2007, 02:45
Drives me mad. (http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f294/Dart1234/stupid.jpg) Losing in the cup like this, what a way to to out.

Lyvean
01-12-2007, 02:53
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
The thinking is using slower tempo increases a 1 on 1 being scored as this allows players to think there to play the ball or how to score pass the keeper. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congratulation. You have post some of the most idiotic drivel I have seen in my life concerning this game.

Unbelievable to what lengths would someone go to defend the game. What you say is so illogical that it actually hurt my eyes.

Mitja
01-12-2007, 04:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dart1234:
Drives me mad. (http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f294/Dart1234/stupid.jpg) Losing in the cup like this, what a way to to out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif you were playing at to high tempo,

Kriss
01-12-2007, 04:34
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The thinking is using slower tempo increases a 1 on 1 being scored as this allows players to think there to play the ball or how to score pass the keeper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you should use the word thinking in conjunction with that sentence.
If indeed it is a sentence.

Mitja
01-12-2007, 04:44
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lyvean:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
The thinking is using slower tempo increases a 1 on 1 being scored as this allows players to think there to play the ball or how to score pass the keeper. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congratulation. You have post some of the most idiotic drivel I have seen in my life concerning this game.

Unbelievable to what lengths would someone go to defend the game. What you say is so illogical that it actually hurt my eyes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I realy don't undersand that thinking...

Mitja
01-12-2007, 04:47
what's tempo got to do with 1/1 chances.

I don't want to be rude but you must be very stupid (or a genious), to think that tempo and scoring chances are linked.

Themistofelis
01-12-2007, 05:25
I think from the replies of the Devs that they don't want to turn 1 to 1 into real chances but help the AI decrease their number.
This is totally unuccaptable.

Tempo and tactics have nothing to do with 1 to 1s and anything less than 80% success is just stupid.

nreo
01-12-2007, 05:31
Ultimately, this IS a problem with the game. Call it what you like, but for me if this ISN'T a bug, then its a complete shambles of a match engine. Honestly, bar the closing down bug, the match engine pre ANY patch was decent, beautiful goals, scrappy goals, they were happening for me. With the beta patch, the closing down bug was fixed and I was really enjoying the game despite the finances bug which i could live with because it was a challenge somewhat lol.

But after the official patch you cannot at all, blame tactics for the amount of chances not being converted. AT THE END OF THE DAY, if your striker is in a ONE ON ONE vs the goalie, it boils down to 2 stats, finishing, and composure. Thats ALL. Don't tell me that my tactics need to be tweaked for the lad to bury it. Nearly all my goals are scrappy rebounds, my beautiful goals come from my midfielders with their 1/30 long shots flying in.

Further to that, if it IS my tactics (as i sincerely doubt, but hey, its only a game right? im considering playing deep 4-5-1, more midfielders = more longshots = more goals!) then this game is not a simulation of football management or of football match at all. the one off match where u miss everything is fair enough, but I do not turn on match of the day at 11pm CET to watch Wigan Athletic blazing over the bar 35 shots. I'd be watching it all night,the only match where there will be a total of 50 shots, of which 40% are off target, are my local indoor matches on friday. SO.. if the producers of this game fail to realise this is a problem (and apologies if u have, i haven't read through the 1.1 million posts on the matter) then this game should be renamed Arcade Pinball Manager 2008, because slide that highlight speed up to full and you'll have the ball going pinball on you, amusing.

P.S
Dart1234, I cracked up at your screenshot, I know the feeling.

SmurfDude
01-12-2007, 05:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
what's tempo got to do with 1/1 chances.

I don't want to be rude but you must be very stupid (or a genious), to think that tempo and scoring chances are linked. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tempo should not have ANYTHING to do with 1 vs 1 chances. Tempo only matters for the buold up to that chance. For some unknown reason we have a few ignorant people on the forum who can't seem to accept the fact the match engine isn't up to scratch.

If you read the hints, then composure, and finishing are the most vital attributes for 1 vs 1. I bought Anguero, one of the best strikers on the game. Guess what? He still blasts every shot directly at the keeper. As does Rooney, as does Tevez, a s does Ronaldo. A strikers stats seem totally irrelevant.

It's unacceptable, and the match engine is simply awful thanks to this, and the problem where players head/shoot the ball straight out of play when they are on the byline.

Dave C
01-12-2007, 06:14
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
anything less than 80% success is just stupid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reality must be pretty stupid then...

Mitja
01-12-2007, 06:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:
I think from the replies of the Devs that they don't want to turn 1 to 1 into real chances but help the AI decrease their number.
This is totally unuccaptable.

Tempo and tactics have nothing to do with 1 to 1s and anything less than 80% success is just stupid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

80% c'mon!!! you have guys like Henry at the moment, who just can't score, even on 1/1 chances.

I would say it's 50-50 to score, 1-1 with GK.

no it's not the biggest problem that those chances are not scored, it's more how many of those are created (obvious defence problem) and super keepers.

Themistofelis
01-12-2007, 06:34
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

80% c'mon!!! you have guys like Henry at the moment, who just can't score, even on 1/1 chances.

I would say it's 50-50 to score, 1-1 with GK.

no it's not the biggest problem that those chances are not scored, it's more how many of those are created (obvious defence problem) and super keepers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing is that when i have a tactic that produces 10 one to ones per game even on 50% thats 5 goals (not to mention goals scored with other ways) this equals with the infamus "supertactis" and thats what the devs want to avoid.
In fm07 it was very easy to score goals from corners , now many of them are called "fauls".
There is a costand efford to reduce gamer's ability to succees and the result is the new match engine (not to mention other "smart" staff like "chairman" selling the best of your players)

What we have now is that we fail not because we are doing something wrong but because game engine is seted up to provide a "challenge" .
I bet my rear that the "fix" for this will be another "smart" way or reducing the number of 1 to 1s rather than scoring more of them.

Kriss
01-12-2007, 06:38
Real life stats do get published, it's nothing like 50%

davhislop
01-12-2007, 06:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dart1234:
Drives me mad. (http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f294/Dart1234/stupid.jpg) Losing in the cup like this, what a way to to out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

is there anyway around this or do we have to grin and bare it when it happines??

McDoul
01-12-2007, 07:04
I always play a slow passing game personally o with tempo as low as 4 clicks up I's grind my team to a halt if playing slower, yet Torres keeps shooting straight at keeper.

Dave C
01-12-2007, 07:07
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
Real life stats do get published, it's nothing like 50% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One-on-ones, from OPTA and other groups stats, are about 30-35% at best.

McDoul
01-12-2007, 07:12
So if real life stats are about 30-35% at best then SI need to reduce number of 1on1's?

To increase the rate would lead to uber scores again, no?

tubbycrabs
01-12-2007, 07:21
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
One on ones. Actually I agree players should be more clinical and keepers are too effective. I also believe there are too many due to defensive lines being a little slow to drop back under pressure. This is being looked into for FML beta initially, and if we can improve it without detracting from the overall FM experience then the fixes will be used for a future patch as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's nice to have some official confirmation from SI that they agree this is a problem with the match engine.

Now can the people who've been saying that it's down to tactics have a bit of humility about the situation instead of being dismissive of everyone who has this issue?

The only things that should matter when a player is one on one with a keeper are Composure, Finishing, and Morale.

Tempo, mentality, time wasting, etc, should not come into play at all. These things come into play when creating scoring chances, but they shouldn't affect the chance itself.

SmurfDude
01-12-2007, 07:23
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by McDoul:
So if real life stats are about 30-35% at best then SI need to reduce number of 1on1's?

To increase the rate would lead to uber scores again, no? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think it's a mixture of the two.

These high quality chances need to be cut down drastically for a start, and at the same time strikers need to convert a higher percentage of them.

Breaking down the defense is far too easy. My strikers get past defenders and are clean through on goal roughly 5 times each game.

So perhaps the root of this problem starts at closing down/marking?

I'd like to see more variety in the shots my strikers have when they are in a 1 vs 1 chance. As it stands they will shoot straight at the keeper roughly 95% of the time, and the other 5% is made up of either a chip over him, or the ball will go through the keeper.

I'd like to see players try to run around the keeper, or try to slot it in to one of the corners.

Fred_the_Red
01-12-2007, 08:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lyvean:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
The thinking is using slower tempo increases a 1 on 1 being scored as this allows players to think there to play the ball or how to score pass the keeper. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congratulation. You have post some of the most idiotic drivel I have seen in my life concerning this game.

Unbelievable to what lengths would someone go to defend the game. What you say is so illogical that it actually hurt my eyes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


haha incase you didnt know I made this thread. I never said tempo will help I said the thinking behind it I.e. the theory that I came across somewhere in this thread that tempo helps players to make better decisions to score 1 - 1. Higher tempo means players rush chances.

But eh who really cares now. There is a problem with the shots to goal ratio this thread is full of users posting their experiences.

I just accept it now and move on.

One tip I will pass on, lowering tempo, men and creative freedom does help convert chances. There is another thread which debates whether attributes is that important in the match engine when a centre defender plays as a striker he is still able to score goals like a striker would. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

TopToffee
01-12-2007, 09:05
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Congratulation. You have post some of the most idiotic drivel I have seen in my life concerning this game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
while this may or may not be true in general, on this one point, he IS right...

you create better chances with a slower tempo - the team passes the ball round more, and looks for better openings, rather than rushing the ball from back to front, and taking the first opportunity to shoot that comes along.

gbmiranda
01-12-2007, 09:49
i'm waiting for a patch 8.0.2 for this week SI

Fred_the_Red
01-12-2007, 10:32
They wont be one.

The next one is in Feb and most that is updated transfers.

This field intentionally left blank
01-12-2007, 11:12
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Congratulation. You have post some of the most idiotic drivel I have seen in my life concerning this game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this a challenge?

PaulC
01-12-2007, 11:16
Tell you what. Let's try and get to the bottom of it together rather than fight.

If we take the position that its tactics related - can people post answers to the following:

- Are you suffering too many wasted chances and averageing 20+ shots per game?

- Can you give us an overview of your tactics in terms of formation and team/player instructions - eg mentality, depth, creative freedom, tempo etc.

Then if we get enough info from enough users maybe we can find a pattern!

Paul http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SmurfDude
01-12-2007, 11:36
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
Tell you what. Let's try and get to the bottom of it together rather than fight.

If we take the position that its tactics related - can people post answers to the following:

- Are you suffering too many wasted chances and averageing 20+ shots per game?

- Can you give us an overview of your tactics in terms of formation and team/player instructions - eg mentality, depth, creative freedom, tempo etc.

Then if we get enough info from enough users maybe we can find a pattern!

Paul http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Personally I don't see how barrages of 1 vs 1 chances being created/missed can be a fault with tactics, but as a fan of FM I do want to help solve it, so I'll happily give info.

I average well above 20 shots per game, and the number of them which I'd consider "wasted" is also very high.

I am Man utd, and I play very attacking as well as fast paced, just as they do in real life.

Formation (http://piefreaks.com/fm/pic01.jpg)
Tactics (http://piefreaks.com/fm/pic02.jpg)

I dominate most teams with ease. I have the AMC & FC swapping position to make opposition man marking less effective. They are often clean through on goal, 1 vs 1 with the keeper. But as I've said, they waste almost every chance.

Unicorns are real
01-12-2007, 11:40
OFF TOPIC (sorry) — Smurf, what skin is that, mate? I like it.

alutac13
01-12-2007, 11:44
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nukehim47:
I have never seen the match engine so bad http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I actually thought the game was pretty good with the beta patch but as what normally happens, new problems are created.

It is very common for me to be having 30 shots per game (which in itself is unrealistic) and more than half on target. Despite all these shots I am only wining by the odd goal which is ridicolous.

Don't tell me it's my tactics because it was working fine in the beta patch.

Don't tell me it's because my team are taking long shots from midfield because most the shots are in fact one on ones with the keeper.

Please can somebody explain why it seems that no conventional goals are scored after the patch!!?? My strikers have about 10 shots each per game (Berbatov, Gyan, Aguero, Huntelaar) and they are pretty easy chances but I am lucky if they put one of them in.

The trouble is the only goals that go in since the patch are complete flukes, it's actually almost impossible to score normal goals.

I really can't beleive how bad it has become, I think I will go back to tbe beta patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the match engine is terrible but agree with some of what this poster says. I am coming pretty much where i would expect to in the league (6th with everton) but almost all goals come from the ball bobbling around and someone hitting it in and have yet to see a goal from the numerous 1 on 1 chances. In previous versions i would be annoyed with strikers for missing now i it's just expected. Also would like to see some rounding the keeper, chips attempted as mentioned by a previous poster.

T-Bag
01-12-2007, 11:44
Why doesn't someone who is suffering from the problem upload their tactics for others to try too ? I'm not really getting this problem but would give some other peoples tactics a whirl to see if it happens on mine.

Mitja
01-12-2007, 11:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lyvean:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
The thinking is using slower tempo increases a 1 on 1 being scored as this allows players to think there to play the ball or how to score pass the keeper. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congratulation. You have post some of the most idiotic drivel I have seen in my life concerning this game.

Unbelievable to what lengths would someone go to defend the game. What you say is so illogical that it actually hurt my eyes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


haha incase you didnt know I made this thread. I never said tempo will help I said the thinking behind it I.e. the theory that I came across somewhere in this thread that tempo helps players to make better decisions to score 1 - 1. Higher tempo means players rush chances.

But eh who really cares now. There is a problem with the shots to goal ratio this thread is full of users posting their experiences.

I just accept it now and move on.

One tip I will pass on, lowering tempo, men and creative freedom does help convert chances. There is another thread which debates whether attributes is that important in the match engine when a centre defender plays as a striker he is still able to score goals like a striker would. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok, but the problem is in 1/1 chances. issue is not about to lower tempo, creative freedom..... it might help but it's so stupid!!!

alutac13
01-12-2007, 12:24
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thebigman1985:
anyone else notice post patch how bad corners are if you set a tm to near post flick on, just heads wide for me from impossible angles </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it was the same pre patch. They don't flick on just go for goal. At least you can remove the setting...the poor opposing managers seem stuck with it.

George Graham
02-12-2007, 05:45
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T-Bag:
Why doesn't someone who is suffering from the problem upload their tactics for others to try too ? I'm not really getting this problem but would give some other peoples tactics a whirl to see if it happens on mine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ive stated twice in this thread how I get this issue.

Essentially you need a 451 with a quick striker with good composure and finishing, then play a direct, quick tempo, counteratacking game.

I think the "best" Ive done with that was 12 1v1s in 90 mins.

sirdez24
02-12-2007, 06:18
2-0 up at the half, they get it back t 2-2, my winger cuts into the box, draws the keeper out ad squares it to an unmarked striker on the penalty spot. No one in front of him, keeper out of the play, all he has to do is tap into an empty net. I don't even get excited, as I know it's going to miss. He hits the post.

But no, it's apparently my tactics. This just isn't right, open nets and point blank chances shouldn't be a bloody lottery.

alutac13
02-12-2007, 06:24
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T-Bag:
Why doesn't someone who is suffering from the problem upload their tactics for others to try too ? I'm not really getting this problem but would give some other peoples tactics a whirl to see if it happens on mine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ive stated twice in this thread how I get this issue.

Essentially you need a 451 with a quick striker with good composure and finishing, then play a direct, quick tempo, counteratacking game.

I think the "best" Ive done with that was 12 1v1s in 90 mins. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The are two seperate issues. On the number of misses I don't see how it is relevant how many 1v1's you get per game. Whether you get 10/10 1v1's missed in 1 game or 1 1v1 per game and it is missed evry time over the space of 10 games it still shows there is a problem. For the record i play a medium to low tempo, mixed passing style 4-5-1 not counterattack. Missed 1v1's have come from johnson many, yakubu many, cahill many. Anichebe some. 1v1's scored 1.

George Graham
02-12-2007, 06:37
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alutac13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T-Bag:
Why doesn't someone who is suffering from the problem upload their tactics for others to try too ? I'm not really getting this problem but would give some other peoples tactics a whirl to see if it happens on mine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ive stated twice in this thread how I get this issue.

Essentially you need a 451 with a quick striker with good composure and finishing, then play a direct, quick tempo, counteratacking game.

I think the "best" Ive done with that was 12 1v1s in 90 mins. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The are two seperate issues. On the number of misses I don't see how it is relevant how many 1v1's you get per game. Whether you get 10/10 1v1's missed in 1 game or 1 1v1 per game and it is missed evry time over the space of 10 games it still shows there is a problem. For the record i play a medium to low tempo, mixed passing style 4-5-1 not counterattack. Missed 1v1's have come from johnson many, yakubu many, cahill many. Anichebe some. 1v1's scored 1. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You dont see how relevant how many 1v1's you get per game?

Its not two seperate issues- as to miss lots of one on one chances you need to create an unrealistically high number of one on one chances dont you?

This is the issue that is being discussed in this thread, maybe you should try reading it.

Fred_the_Red
02-12-2007, 08:10
http://i12.tinypic.com/6ob3pt0.png

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JordanC
02-12-2007, 08:18
Holy crap Fred...what the heck tactical instructions are you using? I never had that many SOG even when I was having problems two months ago.

E-mail me at jordan@getsacked.net with your .tsh, I'm really interested in seeing one of these tactics that are providing so many chances and little goals. Screw it, send the .pkm as well!

SmurfDude
02-12-2007, 08:31
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Unicorns are real:
OFF TOPIC (sorry) — Smurf, what skin is that, mate? I like it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Flex, a skin I made. You can find it in the graphics forum

alutac13
02-12-2007, 08:33
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alutac13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T-Bag:
Why doesn't someone who is suffering from the problem upload their tactics for others to try too ? I'm not really getting this problem but would give some other peoples tactics a whirl to see if it happens on mine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Essentially you need a 451 with a quick striker with good composure and finishing, then play a direct, quick tempo, counteratacking game.

I think the "best" Ive done with that was 12 1v1s in 90 mins. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The are two seperate issues. On the number of misses I don't see how it is relevant how many 1v1's you get per game. Whether you get 10/10 1v1's missed in 1 game or 1 1v1 per game and it is missed evry time over the space of 10 games it still shows there is a problem. For the record i play a medium to low tempo, mixed passing style 4-5-1 not counterattack. Missed 1v1's have come from johnson many, yakubu many, cahill many. Anichebe some. 1v1's scored 1. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You dont see how relevant how many 1v1's you get per game?

Its not two seperate issues- as to miss lots of one on one chances you need to create an unrealistically high number of one on one chances dont you?

This is the issue that is being discussed in this thread, maybe you should try reading it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whether you miss 100 out of 100 or 1000 out of 1000 1v1's is irrelevant both show there is a problem..try using your brain before criticising someone.

SmurfDude
02-12-2007, 08:36
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
http://i12.tinypic.com/6ob3pt0.png

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's similar stats I get in matches against inferior teams. Although sometimes I'll not even score at all. It's about as frustrating as a game can get tbh.

nreo
02-12-2007, 09:02
the lack of constructive response from SI is pathetic.

back to fm2007 it is.

JordanC
02-12-2007, 09:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alutac13:
Whether you miss 100 out of 100 or 1000 out of 1000 1v1's is irrelevant both show there is a problem..try using your brain before criticising someone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, sorry dude. He's not saying that.

His point is that the unrealistic missing of many one-on-one's may actually be caused by the unrealistic amount of one-on-one chances.

Your argument logic Alutac assumes that each miss/chance is an independent event. (for example, the dice in a craps game. Probability remains the same every roll regardless if the last three times it came up 9)

George is stating logic based on DEPENDENT events. (for example, blackjack. Probability changes as certain cards are removed from the deck hence the ability to "count" and bet with more positive expected value)

I think it's all of our beliefs that the AI adopts to our play (I know, this has nothing to do with missed one-on-ones) and a player's form, morale, confidence, etc. affects his ability on the field (which could indeed have to do with missed one-on-ones).

Using this belief, it makes logical sense that a "quicksand" effect can occur (as well as an "unbeatable" run of form) where dependent events skew the match engine against our perceived probabilities.

Whether or not the game SHOULD be like this is not my point of argument. We'd all figure that a striker as a human being can't be so void of form & morale & confidence to miss THAT much. They're professionals for the most part! Those dots on our 2D pitch aren't human beings and professional footballers though. It's a computer program.

Kriss
02-12-2007, 09:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nreo:
the lack of constructive response from SI is pathetic.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeh they should all be at their desks at 4.00 PM on a Sunday http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Mitja
02-12-2007, 09:10
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
http://i12.tinypic.com/6ob3pt0.png

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well done, it's a photoshop... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

alutac13
02-12-2007, 09:21
The quicksand effect is a problem. It would be nice if players took less shots when there confidence was low as opposed to more but with less chance of success. Of course in 1v1 situations you would expect them to still go for it.

Bak to my other point. In my experience a huge number of 1v1's are missed in proportional terms. Creating 10 every game and missing all 10 may be blamed on the quicksand effect. Is missing 1 every game for 10,20, 30 games also the quicksand effect even when it is different players. My point is that anybody should be able to see 1v1's are a disaster. You do not really need to be creating a huge number every game to see that. Some may believe that the computer is stopping you from scoring many 1v1's becasue you are creating so many. I am saying that if you change your tactic you will create less, score less, miss less but the percentage will be similar. The problem is what the game seems to consider as a good chance (one that is likely to lead to a goal) and what a person with half a brain considers a good chance is vastly different. this means to be successful you mave have to use stupid tactics, instructions for example if the option existed i might tick the kick the ball as hard as you can at gk, def and hope for the best.

nreo
02-12-2007, 09:22
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nreo:
the lack of constructive response from SI is pathetic.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeh they should all be at their desks at 4.00 PM on a Sunday http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This Thread started on the 22nd of November. Idiot.

Mitja
02-12-2007, 09:23
I can't believe that you are still arrguing about this issue...look at fred the red's link!!!

the fact is that match engine is preventing super tactics/teams/resoults... or whatever you want to call it.

to me the real issue is not those missed chances, (what would scores be like- 22-0...???). the game automaticly prevents this to happen. so it might not happen to everybody here (this means that we- moaners are better in tactics http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

the amount of times they happen in the game, that's what is weard here. it's like AI can't handle with our tactics, realy. so that brings us to conclussion that the whole defensive system is broken. it's the same for AI as us. but we just have the human factor, that AI doesn't have. it looks like it's the only solution AI has, to stop us- cheating.

Kriss
02-12-2007, 09:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nreo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nreo:
the lack of constructive response from SI is pathetic.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeh they should all be at their desks at 4.00 PM on a Sunday http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This Thread started on the 22nd of November. Idiot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I happen to be one of the idiots testing the huge ammount of work SI have put into this particular issue.

Why I bother for the benefit of morons like yourself I'm beginning to wonder.

nreo
02-12-2007, 09:30
Because I paid good money for a shocking game filled with more bugs than a zoo.

Get on with it.

alutac13
02-12-2007, 09:31
The number of 1v1's using certain tactics is not being debated. I am debating some people's view that if they only create a few 1v1's they will start scoring 90% of them. If you do not believe this then i am not speaking to you. The 1v1 situation is moronic. why it exists we do not know but can only speculate on in a conspiracy theory manner.

ljdzsgffk
02-12-2007, 09:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
http://i12.tinypic.com/6ob3pt0.png

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well done, it's a photoshop... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats one of my games, and its not photoshopped (though I do have it).

Trust me, the goals were the hardest shots my team had all game http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dont believe me? I'll upload it

Kriss
02-12-2007, 09:34
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nreo:
Because I paid good money for a shocking game filled with more bugs than a zoo.

Get on with it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd suggest you get some value from your huge investment by learning how to play it.

nreo
02-12-2007, 09:36
so you're saying the shots/goal ratio is solely tactic related.

Kriss
02-12-2007, 09:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nreo:
so you're saying the shots/goal ratio is solely tactic related. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, I think it's a problem and will be resolved.

But I have found ways round it which are still football logical although they debar certain tactics from working realistically.

rashidi1
02-12-2007, 09:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nreo:
the lack of constructive response from SI is pathetic.

back to fm2007 it is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You obviously have not been reading this thread..PaulC came in and suggested that people post information about their tactics which are producing so many chances, and give more information so that a pattern can be identified. And you say there is nothing constructive happening. Change your attitude please, and if you think there is a problem at least try and be helpful

Mitja
02-12-2007, 09:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ljdzsgffk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
http://i12.tinypic.com/6ob3pt0.png

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well done, it's a photoshop... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats one of my games, and its not photoshopped (though I do have it).

Trust me, the goals were the hardest shots my team had all game http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dont believe me? I'll upload it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you,

but please, upload it, for others

Fred_the_Red
02-12-2007, 09:43
lol people still dont believe this problem of shots to goal ration exists dispite the thread reaching 8 pages of people complaining and giving examples.

ljdzsgffk
02-12-2007, 09:44
http://files-upload.com/files/655034/Man Utd v Derby.pkm

Hope this works..

rashidi1
02-12-2007, 09:44
I suggest people stop arguing. If there is an issue then those who face it should post information on their tactics especially those that seem to be generating extraordinary 1v1s. So far I've only seen one person giving that kind of information

Mitja
02-12-2007, 09:44
I'll repeat myself.

why are so many 100% happening?

that is the real issue...

SmurfDude
02-12-2007, 09:47
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nreo:
so you're saying the shots/goal ratio is solely tactic related. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, I think it's a problem and will be resolved.

But I have found ways round it which are still football logical although they debar certain tactics from working realistically. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
To be fair though that isn't really an answer any of us want to hear. Being told to find ways around a problem which shouldn't exist isn't something I am happy to read.

It's good that it'll be resolved, but to be fair you can't expect people to change their way of playing to suit a broken match engine, which it basically is if we;re forced to play a certain way to avoid this issue.

People will come here to express their anger, and rightly so...although sadly some people do it in a way which is too aggressive.

Mitja
02-12-2007, 09:49
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:
I suggest people stop arguing. If there is an issue then those who face it should post information on their tactics especially those that seem to be generating extraordinary 1v1s. So far I've only seen one person giving that kind of information </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok rashidi with all respect,but you must be joking...

look at those (moaners) treads, people are posting their statistics and it's crazy to think that tactics and 100% could be linked.

Fergie: "hey Cristiano!! you know you must not score when we play on 17th notch of our tempo"

is that what you are trying to say? of course not.

nreo
02-12-2007, 09:51
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nreo:
so you're saying the shots/goal ratio is solely tactic related. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, I think it's a problem and will be resolved.

But I have found ways round it which are still football logical although they debar certain tactics from working realistically. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes so its totally unrealistic. On my fm2008 box it says its 'more realistic than ever' if i translate it into english. laughable.

Rashidi, understand the frustration of a 6 year loyal customer when PaulC comes in, without any real information.

He gives no timeframe to when this problem will be solved.
He fails to acknowledge that its a problem at all, when he says that its something we'll have to get through 'together' and when enough users contribute' MAYBE we can find a pattern. despite the huge quantities of posts being thrown about on this forum the lack of acknowledgement and the lack of effort shown, after everyone being so excited with the 8.0.1 patch being released. Previous versions of fm had bugs sure, fair enough, but they were playable in a realistic sense, to a certain extent. this game has its heart and soul flawed; the match engine.

this is NOT freeware, this is not something free that we SHOULD HAVE to help you with. understand the frustration here. understand the expectation of hundreds if not thousands of loyal fans, only for matches to be played out like fred_the_red's.

I'll help out sure, i'll post my tactics and formation, i'll change my attitude if it means this game is fixed faster, or at least the match engine is fixed. i'll spend my available free time trying to help fix a game that i should be playing during that time.

but forgodsake at least an apology will do, instead of bathing in our cash and telling us we'll find patterns 'together'!

/rant over.

alutac13
02-12-2007, 09:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ljdzsgffk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
http://i12.tinypic.com/6ob3pt0.png

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well done, it's a photoshop... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats one of my games, and its not photoshopped (though I do have it).

Trust me, the goals were the hardest shots my team had all game http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dont believe me? I'll upload it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you,

but please, upload it, for others </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If i created 40 shots a game and it was the 2 tap ins that were converted i would happier. The type of goals scored/% converted is something that should be easy for sigames to get to the bottom of. Can they not do experiments to see what chances are being created/converted? Do they really need us to do it. What were/are the testers doing?

Unfortunately it is too easy for some naysayers to say you probably had 20 shots blocked or 30 shots from outside the box. Having shots blocked not count or as a seperate category would help. Also any player who needs on average 30 shots per goal (ie all my midfielders) should have 1 or 2 for l.shots, composure and finishing for this to make sense.

rashidi1
02-12-2007, 09:55
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:
I suggest people stop arguing. If there is an issue then those who face it should post information on their tactics especially those that seem to be generating extraordinary 1v1s. So far I've only seen one person giving that kind of information </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok rashidi with all respect,but you must be joking...

look at those (moaners) treads, people are posting their statistics and it's crazy to think that tactics and 100% could be linked.

Fergie: "hey Cristiano!! you know you must not score when we play on 17th notch of our tempo"

is that what you are trying to say? of course not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
Tell you what. Let's try and get to the bottom of it together rather than fight.

If we take the position that its tactics related - can people post answers to the following:

- Are you suffering too many wasted chances and averageing 20+ shots per game?

- Can you give us an overview of your tactics in terms of formation and team/player instructions - eg mentality, depth, creative freedom, tempo etc.

Then if we get enough info from enough </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mitja...stop cracking jokes and read the thread...a position needs to be taken, a starting point so that a solution can be found.

SmurfDude
02-12-2007, 09:57
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alutac13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ljdzsgffk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
http://i12.tinypic.com/6ob3pt0.png

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well done, it's a photoshop... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats one of my games, and its not photoshopped (though I do have it).

Trust me, the goals were the hardest shots my team had all game http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dont believe me? I'll upload it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you,

but please, upload it, for others </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If i created 40 shots a game and it was the 2 tap ins that were converted i would happier. The type of goals scored/% converted is something that should be easy for sigames to get to the bottom of. Can they not do experiments to see what chances are being created/converted? Do they really need us to do it. What were/are the testers doing?

Unfortunately it is too easy for some naysayers to say you probably had 20 shots blocked or 30 shots from outside the box. Having shots blocked not count or as a seperate category would help. Also any player who needs on average 30 shots per goal (ie all my midfielders) should have 1 or 2 for l.shots, composure and finishing for this to make sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is why PaulC suggested to give information on how we play, what tactics we use etc. So then I assume the testers would be told to mimic these tactics so they can observe the problem themselves.

Kriss
02-12-2007, 09:59
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SmurfDude:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nreo:
so you're saying the shots/goal ratio is solely tactic related. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, I think it's a problem and will be resolved.

But I have found ways round it which are still football logical although they debar certain tactics from working realistically. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
To be fair though that isn't really an answer any of us want to hear. Being told to find ways around a problem which shouldn't exist isn't something I am happy to read.

It's good that it'll be resolved, but to be fair you can't expect people to change their way of playing to suit a broken match engine, which it basically is if we;re forced to play a certain way to avoid this issue.

People will come here to express their anger, and rightly so...although sadly some people do it in a way which is too aggressive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anger doesn't get problems resolved, reporting supported by facts does.

This issue was clouded from day one because many people don't experience the problem.

Finding a way round a tactic which doesn't work is a huge part of FM's gameplay anyway whether the cause is imbalance in the game or the load of carp rubbish I just signed.

So needing to do it under certain circumstances shouldn't provoke the kind of vitriol and abuse we see here.

Sadly for the first time I've seen abuse for the sake of it rather than the good of the game.

alutac13
02-12-2007, 10:05
If sigames came back and said we had a look at 100 games and players scored x% of 1v1's and x = a number significantly larger than 5 then i
would accept it. I could care less what tactics they were using when they created/scored these chances. I would not say i demand you tell me every single detail of what happened before i will consider listening to you. Not saying Sigames does this just that some people seem to believe they should.

SmurfDude
02-12-2007, 10:06
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anger doesn't get problems resolved, reporting supported by facts does.

This issue was clouded from day one because many people don't experience the problem.

Finding a way round a tactic which doesn't work is a huge part of FM's gameplay anyway whether the cause is imbalance in the game or the load of carp rubbish I just signed.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is though, there is a difference between finding a way around an opponents tactic when they are dominating play, and having to find a way around a problem where it's actually us who are dominating and getting all the chances, yet they are missed, for whatever reason that may be.

I'm totally fine with having to tweak tactics to win, that's part of the fun for me.

But in my mind, if I create a tactic which can easily break through the defense and have my star striker 1 vs 1 with the keeper several times each match, then my tactic is sound and shouldn't need changing, correct? That is my real complaint here.

The match engine is either giving me the false illusion that I am in command of the game, or I really am, and there is a bug which stops not only good chances being scored, but also numerous 1 vs 1's.

alutac13
02-12-2007, 10:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SmurfDude:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alutac13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ljdzsgffk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:
http://i12.tinypic.com/6ob3pt0.png

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well done, it's a photoshop... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats one of my games, and its not photoshopped (though I do have it).

Trust me, the goals were the hardest shots my team had all game http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dont believe me? I'll upload it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you,

but please, upload it, for others </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If i created 40 shots a game and it was the 2 tap ins that were converted i would happier. The type of goals scored/% converted is something that should be easy for sigames to get to the bottom of. Can they not do experiments to see what chances are being created/converted? Do they really need us to do it. What were/are the testers doing?

Unfortunately it is too easy for some naysayers to say you probably had 20 shots blocked or 30 shots from outside the box. Having shots blocked not count or as a seperate category would help. Also any player who needs on average 30 shots per goal (ie all my midfielders) should have 1 or 2 for l.shots, composure and finishing for this to make sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is why PaulC suggested to give information on how we play, what tactics we use etc. So then I assume the testers would be told to mimic these tactics so they can observe the problem themselves. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They don't need to use anyone's. Just use a few presets and tell us what happened. It seems that all the testers must either be blind or have used the exact same tactic which hides the flaws in the game engine.

JordanC
02-12-2007, 10:17
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:
You obviously have not been reading this thread..PaulC came in and suggested that people post information about their tactics which are producing so many chances, and give more information so that a pattern can be identified. And you say there is nothing constructive happening. Change your attitude please, and if you think there is a problem at least try and be helpful </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, I love it when Rashidi lays down the iron fist!

He's right though. It's not very productive to just moan about a problem you're having but to go in with the attitude of "either I'm doing something wrong and I'll work on finding a solution" or "SI is looking into it and I'll provide them with a bunch of data so we can all figure this out together".

I'm going to upload a stats screenshot, tsh & pkm files on my server to show you what I've done with the match engine and limiting my chances yet scoring a higher %. Be aware that some of these games are really boring to watch with a lot of midfield passing and missed through balls.

nymanr
02-12-2007, 10:19
One trend i have seen is most people who seem to experience this play with top quality sides and play a quick attacking football. How that could be wrong and to say that people that play that way are stupid for doing so is just wrong. Most quality sides play quick as they have the skill to hold the ball at that pace and can avoid being closed down in that way against weaker teams. Tempo of game style should not have an effect on finishing but only on the manner of how the player has found him self in the scoring position in the first place. Sure as the striker has made a quick run to get to the ball it can have some effect but not to the level it has now.

As PaulC said we should just post our formations and our team instructions so that they can get a idea of what is causing this.

This is one of the most extreme games i had where this happened.
Man Utd - Sheffield UTD (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o189/shnauser/Untitled-1.jpg)

And my formation

Man Utd Formation (http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o189/shnauser/Untitled-2.jpg)

Tactics
Mentality: normal + 4 (All have same except defense who have normal -2)
Creative Freedom: Team normal (wingers/strikers normal + 3)
Passing style: Mixed
Tempo: normal + 4 (quick)
Width: normal + 4 (wide)
Time wasting: Rarely
D.Line: Normal
Tackling: Normal

As i have good passers in my team "try through balls" is set to often for most midfielders and mixed for the rest. I cross rarely as my strikers don't have the ability to win any headers. Averaged about 5-7 "clean" 1&1 per game with this tactic. That is not counting all the easy no pressure shots strikers also missed when alone in the penalty area. Have since changed tactics to slow low mentality and have better statistics for my finishing but does not seem right that i have to play slow / defensive to get my strikers to convert my clear chances.

alutac13
02-12-2007, 10:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SmurfDude:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anger doesn't get problems resolved, reporting supported by facts does.

This issue was clouded from day one because many people don't experience the problem.

Finding a way round a tactic which doesn't work is a huge part of FM's gameplay anyway whether the cause is imbalance in the game or the load of carp rubbish I just signed.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is though, there is a difference between finding a way around an opponents tactic when they are dominating play, and having to find a way around a problem where it's actually us who are dominating and getting all the chances, yet they are missed, for whatever reason that may be.

I'm totally fine with having to tweak tactics to win, that's part of the fun for me.

But in my mind, if I create a tactic which can easily break through the defense and have my star striker 1 vs 1 with the keeper several times each match, then my tactic is sound and shouldn't need changing, correct? That is my real complaint here.

The match engine is either giving me the false illusion that I am in command of the game, or I really am, and there is a bug which stops not only good chances being scored, but also numerous 1 vs 1's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't agree more with smurf. It is barely tolerable if you have to play in 1 specific way to win in a action footie game ie in one version of FIFA shoot from a certain spot, the next crosses from a certain area. for you to have to use 1 tactic no matter what your players strengths/weaknesses are you have in a management sim i should not have to tell how that sounds.

Too many sitters are missed. From looking at the forums this is coming from people who are using vastly different tactics. Expecting people to repeat what tactics they use every time they post is unreasonable. People have given the info now we need to see if anything is done and how quickly. Or a response could be given disproving our theories. I have only seen one poster say he scored a decent number of 1v1's in 1 game (2 out of 3). Even with a 10% success rate this should happen fairly often considering the number of people out there.
The silence is deafening.

Kriss
02-12-2007, 10:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As i have good passers in my team "try through balls" is set to often for most midfielders and mixed for the rest. I cross rarely as my strikers don't have the ability to win any headers. Averaged about 5-7 "clean" 1&1 per game with this tactic. That is not counting all the easy no pressure shots strikers also missed when alone in the penalty area. Have since changed tactics to slow low mentality and have better statistics for my finishing but does not seem right that i have to play slow / defensive to get my strikers to convert my clear chances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good wingers, strikers who head well and a midfield set to defend when we lose possesion.
Those basic rules are getting me very realistic results and stats.

alutac13
02-12-2007, 10:34
missed out even with a 10% succcess rate this should happen fairly often considering the number of people playing/posting. Obviously it does not have to be in 1 game. If someone says they have scored 6/7/8 out of 10 1v1's over x number of game i would be suprised...then comes the silence is deafening

Mitja
02-12-2007, 10:36
I believe that PaulC said that they were testing just AI vs AI matches??? but he said so....

and RASHIDI, the real problem with 1/1 chances is not they are not scored, it's the amount of them... so if they were scored we would have crazy resoults here, and the easist way this resoults dont happen for match engine is, serious SOT/GOAL issue....and I realy can't believe SI don't know it....

and we come to "defensive knowledge" this match engine has.... when watching my defenders it seems like they never played or even heard for football.

I'm sorry but these are my feelings I'm not mad at anybody.

the thing is I know I'm right. and as I said I also don't believe that SI don't know for this "defensive bug", they made huge improvements on match engine from 07. the problem is you can't just give us such a (not scoring) fix and pretend everything is OK. I understand it's not easy to make human thinking players, but just say so....

alutac13
02-12-2007, 10:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As i have good passers in my team "try through balls" is set to often for most midfielders and mixed for the rest. I cross rarely as my strikers don't have the ability to win any headers. Averaged about 5-7 "clean" 1&1 per game with this tactic. That is not counting all the easy no pressure shots strikers also missed when alone in the penalty area. Have since changed tactics to slow low mentality and have better statistics for my finishing but does not seem right that i have to play slow / defensive to get my strikers to convert my clear chances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good wingers, strikers who head well and a midfield set to defend when we lose possesion.
Those basic rules are getting me very realistic results and stats. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True. The match engine seems very realistic in terms of created/converted chances from crosses (as well as some other areas). Does this mean everyone must play that way. I am not criticising because i think the game is crap. I just think pointing out problems is likely to lead to improvements. If no one complains about something developers should know they have done a good job. Anyway their sales should also tell them a lot about how people view the series in general. Also does this mean you never get 1v1's..if you do are they converted regularly...do you not think your strikers miss more sitters from non crosses than you would expect...more info please.

Kriss
02-12-2007, 10:50
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">True. The match engine seems very realistic in terms of created/converted chances from crosses (as well as some other areas). Does this mean everyone must play that way. I am not criticising because i think the game is crap. I just think pointing out problems is likely to lead to improvements. If no one complains about something developers should know they have done a good job. Anyway their sales should also tell them a lot about how people view the series in general. Also does this mean you never get 1v1's..if you do are they converted regularly...do you not think your strikers miss more sitters from non crosses than you would expect...more info please. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sensibly you'd play the way that wins you matches while this is looked at.

I've set it up so that very little goes through the centre and almost all chances come from crosses.
Not all headers by any means and Xavi and Rosicky have scored some brilliant first timers from crosses to the edge of the box.

Where one on ones do occur the chance is rarely taken unless it's from a quite acute angle.

I'm actually getting quite a buzz out of having got round the problem.

Yes I do believe it's a problem (but I'm not the ultimate authority http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Their sales tell them that FM is more popular than ever btw.

rashidi1
02-12-2007, 10:54
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
I believe that PaulC said that they were testing just AI vs AI matches??? but he said so....

and RASHIDI, the real problem with 1/1 chances is not they are not scored, it's the amount of them... so if they were scored we would have crazy resoults here, and the easist way this resoults dont happen for match engine is, serious SOT/GOAL issue....and I realy can't believe SI don't know it....

and we come to "defensive knowledge" this match engine has.... when watching my defenders it seems like they never played or even heard for football.

I'm sorry but these are my feelings I'm not mad at anybody.

the thing is I know I'm right. and as I said I also don't believe that SI don't know for this "defensive bug", they made huge improvements on match engine from 07. the problem is you can't just give us such a (not scoring) fix and pretend everything is OK. I understand it's not easy to make human thinking players, but just say so.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For one thing, I'm not disagreeing with anyone here..if someone experiences an anomaly then we need to know how to replicate it to see if its a problem. Yes the game is "soaked" to see how the AI v AI results pan out, since the AI world is vital to game balance. Human managers on the other hand have different and unique permutations when it comes to tactical formations and these can often throw out interesting results. I had a match which produced something like 30 shots 20 of which were on target and there was only 1 goal Possession was around 60% and trust me I was really upset.

Is there a problem, there might be, but in order to find out how to fix it without unbalancing the whole matter is to look at pkms,saved games and the like.

I completely agree that the engine does seem to throw out a lot of 1v1s. These are usually the result of a human tactic. Its information like this that is needed...if someone is dominating..and having bucketloads of chances and still not winning..then there is a problem. What is needed is not a whole lot of people throwing smoke in the air, but more clarity, and this can only come in the form of information about tactics, pkms and the like...

I'm all for getting problems fixed, and I know there are some people who think this is an issue, for it to be handled efficiently the right kind of information is required. Working together I'm certain we can shed more light on the issue.

nymanr
02-12-2007, 11:02
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As i have good passers in my team "try through balls" is set to often for most midfielders and mixed for the rest. I cross rarely as my strikers don't have the ability to win any headers. Averaged about 5-7 "clean" 1&1 per game with this tactic. That is not counting all the easy no pressure shots strikers also missed when alone in the penalty area. Have since changed tactics to slow low mentality and have better statistics for my finishing but does not seem right that i have to play slow / defensive to get my strikers to convert my clear chances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good wingers, strikers who head well and a midfield set to defend when we lose possesion.
Those basic rules are getting me very realistic results and stats. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That seems to be true. Looked through Europe in my game and noticed that in all top leagues top goal scorer was a player that was strong and could jump/head. Stopped crossing ball as my strikers could not win any headers and that took their rating for the games way down. They got about 10 challenges each per game winning about 1 per game. As i could not direct my crossing to have them run on to crosses i just took them away. That then gave my more passing and more good chances.

The best goal scorer in Europe was Zlatan.I because he can do both head and run with the ball. Had about one gaol/game. David villa had scored 5 goals in 22 apps for Valencia. Villa had a great SOT ratio but could not get any.

It is true my results are much more realistic when i play slow defensive but that relates to goal scores and shots per game. Am still not able to score from 1&1 and most goals come from rebounds.

alutac13
02-12-2007, 11:04
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">True. The match engine seems very realistic in terms of created/converted chances from crosses (as well as some other areas). Does this mean everyone must play that way. I am not criticising because i think the game is crap. I just think pointing out problems is likely to lead to improvements. If no one complains about something developers should know they have done a good job. Anyway their sales should also tell them a lot about how people view the series in general. Also does this mean you never get 1v1's..if you do are they converted regularly...do you not think your strikers miss more sitters from non crosses than you would expect...more info please. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sensibly you'd play the way that wins you matches while this is looked at.

I've set it up so that very little goes through the centre and almost all chances come from crosses.
Not all headers by any means and Xavi and Rosicky have scored some brilliant first timers from crosses to the edge of the box.

Where one on ones do occur the chance is rarely taken unless it's from a quite acute angle.

I'm actually getting quite a buzz out of having got round the problem.

Yes I do believe it's a problem (but I'm not the ultimate authority http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Their sales tell them that FM is more popular than ever btw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My results are fairly unchanged. I was coming just outside the top 4 (with everton) playing in a way that made sense (and creating 20+ shots per game including many good ones). I am coming just outside the top 4 with new more defensive tactics (creating and scoring less goals). Most are not complaining because they can't win. They are complaining because the match seems unrealistic when you miss so many great chances and then score from long range from weird angles. That this happens sometimes in football is undeniable..that it will happen so often is silly.

daleuk7
02-12-2007, 11:12
if this is a problem will it be sorted sooner rather than later?

Mitja
02-12-2007, 11:16
SI said the next patch will be out in february.

but with such response, I believe they allready doing the new one.

SmurfDude
02-12-2007, 11:20
In the meantime I'd strongly recommend reverting back to the first beta patch, if this issue is really annoying you. The match engine is actually pretty enjoyable in the beta.

daleuk7
02-12-2007, 11:22
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">SI said the next patch will be out in february.

but with such response, I believe they allready doing the new one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what makes you think they are already doing it? by the sounds of it, they are trying to work out if it is a problem or not?

ljdzsgffk
02-12-2007, 11:24
Just beat Juventus 4-0. All of my goals were tap ins. All came from an easy one-on-one. I would have enjoyed it if the one-on-ones had gone in instead of the rebounds. Instead, it was a hollow victory for me.

JordanC
02-12-2007, 11:35
Ok, I've sorted through my first two months of my new game with Shrewsbury in CC League 2. Although I'm posting two matchs where it is more prevelant than others, here you go:

Shrewsbury v. Notts County PKM (extended) (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/nottsco.pkm)
Shrewsbury v. Notts County MATCH STATS (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/nottscomatchstats.png)
Shrewsbury v. Notts County PLAYER STATS (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/nottscoplayerstats.png)

Bury v. Shrewsbury PKM (key) (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/bury.pkm)
Bury v. Shrewsbury MATCH STATS (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/burymatchstats.png)
Bury v. Shrewsbury PLAYER STATS (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/buryplayerstats.png)

Here is the TSH file - Shrewsbury Tactic (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/tactic.tsh)
This is a basic framework though that I start from. The games above have small changes here and there that were made prior or during the match.

*** Watch the player stats/ratings as the PKM goes through the match. You'll notice that players that are taking more and more shots aren't scoring, yet another player who makes his first shot scores right away. (a small insight into my opinion that missed shots deflate confidence and create a "quicksand" effect)

*** Also, in the Bury game, there are a lot of missed one-on-ones, like one for me and I think 3 for Bury. Comparing this game to some of my others, this had a VERY HIGH amount of 1-on-1 chances (which is probably still a considerably lower amount than some of your AVERAGE games)

For background information, here were my results with corresponding SOG stats:

(Shots/On Target/Goals) *first set is always me
H Arsenal 7/4/1 & 29/10/3
A Heriot Watt 9/4/0 & 19/12/3
A Connahs Quay 6/3/1 & 7/3/0
H Leicester 2/2/0 & 19/10/2
H Dag Red 9/3/0 & 9/4/0
H Colchester 8/5/0 & 14/7/2
A Grimsby 8/4/1 & 8/4/1
H Hereford 13/4/1 & 7/3/0
A Wycombe 5/1/0 & 14/7/1
H Notts Co 11/4/3 & 14/6/3
H Notts Co 9/3/3 & 16/9/1
A Wrexham 14/3/1 & 8/3/1
H Bradford 10/5/0 & 4/1/0
A Bury 12/6/3 & 10/8/3
H Macclesfield 11/8/2 & 6/3/1

Sorting this all out, you get these percentages:

Shrewsbury 134/59/16
SOG/Target: 44% (my players suck!)
Goals/Target: 27% (about 1 in 3.75)
Goals/Total Shots: 12% overall (about 1 in 8.5)

Opponents 185/92/21
SOG/Target: 50%
Goals/Target: 23% (about 1 in 4.5)
Goals/Total Shots: 11% overall (about 1 in 9)

These SOG percentages seem pretty normal to me in comparison to real-life football.

Please take a look at the files above and give some feedback comments. Explain to me what I am doing differently from you and what you're experiencing. Let's help out Paul as much as possible!

Mitja
02-12-2007, 11:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daleuk7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">SI said the next patch will be out in february.

but with such response, I believe they allready doing the new one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what makes you think they are already doing it? by the sounds of it, they are trying to work out if it is a problem or not? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

believe me, they know it's a huge problem...

alutac13
02-12-2007, 11:51
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JordanC:
Ok, I've sorted through my first two months of my new game with Shrewsbury in CC League 2. Although I'm posting two matchs where it is more prevelant than others, here you go:

Shrewsbury v. Notts County PKM (extended) (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/nottsco.pkm)


Shrewsbury v. Notts County MATCH STATS (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/nottscomatchstats.png)
Shrewsbury v. Notts County PLAYER STATS (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/nottscoplayerstats.png)

Bury v. Shrewsbury PKM (key) (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/bury.pkm)
Bury v. Shrewsbury MATCH STATS (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/burymatchstats.png)
Bury v. Shrewsbury PLAYER STATS (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/buryplayerstats.png)

Here is the TSH file - Shrewsbury Tactic (http://www.getsacked.net/matches/tactic.tsh)
This is a basic framework though that I start from. The games above have small changes here and there that were made prior or during the match.

*** Watch the player stats/ratings as the PKM goes through the match. You'll notice that players that are taking more and more shots aren't scoring, yet another player who makes his first shot scores right away. (a small insight into my opinion that missed shots deflate confidence and create a "quicksand" effect)

*** Also, in the Bury game, there are a lot of missed one-on-ones, like one for me and I think 3 for Bury. Comparing this game to some of my others, this had a VERY HIGH amount of 1-on-1 chances (which is probably still a considerably lower amount than some of your AVERAGE games)

For background information, here were my results with corresponding SOG stats:

(Shots/On Target/Goals) *first set is always me
H Arsenal 7/4/1 & 29/10/3
A Heriot Watt 9/4/0 & 19/12/3
A Connahs Quay 6/3/1 & 7/3/0
H Leicester 2/2/0 & 19/10/2
H Dag Red 9/3/0 & 9/4/0
H Colchester 8/5/0 & 14/7/2
A Grimsby 8/4/1 & 8/4/1
H Hereford 13/4/1 & 7/3/0
A Wycombe 5/1/0 & 14/7/1
H Notts Co 11/4/3 & 14/6/3
H Notts Co 9/3/3 & 16/9/1
A Wrexham 14/3/1 & 8/3/1
H Bradford 10/5/0 & 4/1/0
A Bury 12/6/3 & 10/8/3
H Macclesfield 11/8/2 & 6/3/1

Sorting this all out, you get these percentages:

Shrewsbury 134/59/16
SOG/Target: 44% (my players suck!)
Goals/Target: 27% (about 1 in 3.75)
Goals/Total Shots: 12% overall (about 1 in 8.5)

Opponents 185/92/21
SOG/Target: 50%
Goals/Target: 23% (about 1 in 4.5)
Goals/Total Shots: 11% overall (about 1 in 9)

These SOG percentages seem pretty normal to me in comparison to real-life football.

Please take a look at the files above and give some feedback comments. Explain to me what I am doing differently from you and what you're experiencing. Let's help out Paul as much as possible! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's not a major problem with overall stats if you use certain tactics. What will never change is the fact that certain types of chances are missed far too often.

daleuk7
02-12-2007, 12:07
[quote]believe me, they know it's a huge problem...[/

well they have not come out and said that..is there anyone i can e-mail at SI I e-mailed a while back but no reply

Kriss
02-12-2007, 12:09
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daleuk7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">SI said the next patch will be out in february.

but with such response, I believe they allready doing the new one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what makes you think they are already doing it? by the sounds of it, they are trying to work out if it is a problem or not? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

believe me, they know it's a huge problem... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That borders on the verge of hysterical overstatement.

What "they" know is that they will always investigate problems and if they find adjustment is required they'll make it, within "their" terms of reference and constraints.

Rams_
02-12-2007, 12:11
I have just witnessed Rob Earnshaw miss from literally 1 yard out with an open net.

Close to giving up :/

mertle
02-12-2007, 12:13
well my take on this there is a significant change to the patch thats for sure. You can play a weak side and despite creating oportunities score low when before you could be winning 9-0 with loads of chances and since patch it almost locks to 1 or 2 goals.

Noticed that also large amount of shots go straight to the goallie almost always never hardly placed unlike before the patch striker used there composer more to score. Has SI dumbed down the effect of composer.

Now What I observed tactically from the AI is mistifying.

There does not seem to be very few times a balanced tactic employed. Its either gun ho (overload the front) or ultra defensive(overload defensive). Mainly defensive as the AI literally scared to take on succesful sides. Maybe why its so easy to wrack up chances and ultimately huge umbeaten runs.

This what I think is the real issue the defensive minded attitude of the AI. Poorly robotic nature of AI trying to crack a tactic or work around such tactic.

I think there is another problem with the game which is an exploit.

Thats is allout attack conjunction with quick tempo the culprit. Put every player on hold ball all attack players on full creativity with a 4-4-2 and the chances will flow. The players dont burn out this to me is a worry.

Is this the way large volumes of chances are happening due to the creativity and tempo going overdrive. However SI since the patch I believe they have tried to shift the game into normality so the game is being fixed to not allow mass goal scoring. Hence composer dumbing as one way to stop these chances being scored in abundence. However what I would have settled is the game stopping you using the fast tempo/all out attack without severe enegy penalty. Poorish natural fitness should go down to virtual zero fitness.

Sorry but I think this should be made to be a tactic used for 20 mins max. It should not be able to be used 90 mins. Some might disagree.

JordanC
02-12-2007, 12:15
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alutac13:
There's not a major problem with overall stats if you use certain tactics. What will never change is the fact that certain types of chances are missed far too often. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm trying to show that isn't always the case at all. Like I commented about my Bury game that a grand total of FOUR or FIVE one-on-one chances between both teams in a full match is VERY HIGH for me. There are many matches I've played where there were NO one-on-one chances or something in the range of 1-3 between both sides.

I'm showing that my tactics don't seem to create those types of opportunites well at all, yet when they do show up, I convert more often than not.

Look at the total SOG I have in my games...some have 12 SOG all game COMBINED by both teams. Most of the screenshots I see up here have 25-30 SOG just from one team! Those teams score twice, missing 6 one-on-ones. My team scores twice, only creating 2 one-on-ones and converting on one of them.

I'm not trying to debate whether it SHOULD be this way or who's right or wrong. I'm not saying my tactical approach is a solution to everyome's woes. All I did was make tactics that don't create many one-on-ones, yet have a much higher conversion rate on them. I honestly want to figure out with everyone why this is.

alutac13
02-12-2007, 12:47
If you have a high conversion rate for 1v1's then i am surprised. What exactly do you consider to be a 1v1? I would think that the engine considers it to be when the nearest defender is at least x distance away from the striker. I have not stuck to the same playes or tactics and i am assuming that the oponents do not all have the same tactics/players with same skills. I do not create as many 1v1's as i used to i still miss virtually every one. 1v1 in this case being when there is no defender anywhere near the attacker/gk. The opponent misses virtually every one as well. If this is not the only sit. which is considered a 1v1 then it makes even less sense. More 1v1's scored with defenders close on heals compared to almost none scored when there is absolutely no pressure/rush. Again certain players may be better under pressure than others but if it is a general trend it is disturbing.

PaulC
02-12-2007, 13:19
Keep the feedback coming chaps, but please post links to pkms as well as screenshots!

Despite what some of you think, we do take our post release support seriously, and will not be ignoring this issue.

JordanC
02-12-2007, 13:24
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alutac13:
If you have a high conversion rate for 1v1's then i am surprised. What exactly do you consider to be a 1v1? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I consider a 1v1 to a be a player dribbling with the ball and the only person between them and the goal is the GK and clear free from any defenders (maybe 2-3 steps at least).

Most of my misses aren't shots into the chest right at the GK. They're either tipped over the bar or shot low and just wide of the goal. When I was Liverpool, they had much better placement. I'm playing in L2 though, so my players can't do anything well anyways, but they still get it just past the keeper about half the time they get a 1v1 chance (which as I said previously is not too often)

alutac13
02-12-2007, 13:32
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
Keep the feedback coming chaps, but please post links to pkms as well as screenshots!

Despite what some of you think, we do take our post release support seriously, and will not be ignoring this issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any new thoughts on the blocks being a seperate category or removed completely Paul?

Also I would really like there to be some info on what type of goals a player has scored on a page you can see in game. How many were headers/long range efforts etc. How many direct fk attempted/scored etc. This would help with tactics rather than having to rely on looking back at reports to make 100% sure of height of cross/what exactly went on. Also relying on ones memory is somewhat dodgy. I would think someone in real life clubs analyses this kind of thing and makes it available to their managers.

Also any chance of saying when exactly the match engine considers it to be a 1v1 in terms of when it uses attributes related to that. I understand telling us exactly what attributes are important would detract from the fun but saying situation x is a 1v1 situation situation y is not in my opinion wouldn't.