Why the change in description?

I was just wondering what the reason was behind changing the description of "Forward Runs" to "Run From Deep?"

"Forward Runs" made sense as it implies a forward run from any particular position the player is on the pitch whereas "Run From Deep" implies a run from a player that is positioned further back.

For me, it is misleading. For example, my striker that is playing on the shoulder of the last defender. He is not making a "Run From Deep" as he's playing up top. He's simply making a "Forward Run".

Any thoughts?

I'm pretty sure they are two seperate things and were both in FM09.

I'm pretty sure they are two seperate things and were both in FM09.

Are you sure, because I've read that "Run From Deep" is basically what "Forward Runs" were?

footynut is correct - Run From Deep is Forward Runs renamed.

For example, my striker that is playing on the shoulder of the last defender. He is not making a "Run From Deep" as he's playing up top. He's simply making a "Forward Run".

If he is on the shoulder of the last defender he doesn't need to run any further forward. If you play an Advanced Forward, set the target man supply to 'Run onto Ball' and/or use the 'Pass into Space' shout, he should naturally exhibit the behaviour you are looking for.

The Run from Deep setting is designed to get players forward to JOIN the attack as was Forward Runs. The change in wording is meant to clear up any ambiguity and imply that it only applies to players not already forward.

Hope that clears it up.

footynut is correct - Run From Deep is Forward Runs renamed.

If he is on the shoulder of the last defender he doesn't need to run any further forward. If you play an Advanced Forward, set the target man supply to 'Run onto Ball' and/or use the 'Pass into Space' shout, he should naturally exhibit the behaviour you are looking for.

The Run from Deep setting is designed to get players forward to JOIN the attack as was Forward Runs. The change in wording is meant to clear up any ambiguity and imply that it only applies to players not already forward.

Hope that clears it up.

I'm not sure I understand the fact that a striker playing on the shoulder of the last defender doesn't need to make forward runs. I have this striker set to forward runs often and it works well. I think it says in the manual that by giving forward runs to a player it makes him attempt to run beyond the opposition which is what you want isn't it?

Also, isn't this what TT&F has always recommended?

I'm not sure I understand the fact that a striker playing on the shoulder of the last defender doesn't need to make forward runs. I have this striker set to forward runs often and it works well. I think it says in the manual that by giving forward runs to a player it makes him attempt to run beyond the opposition which is what you want isn't it?

Also, isn't this what TT&F has always recommended?

Forward Runs has been renamed to Runs From Deep, it was wrongly worded in previous versions. If a striker is in an advanced role, he doesn't need to make Runs From Deep, he's already in attack!

Forward Runs has been renamed to Runs From Deep, it was wrongly worded in previous versions. If a striker is in an advanced role, he doesn't need to make Runs From Deep, he's already in attack!

Yes, but my point is a striker in an advaned role should be making forward runs, which like you say has been renamed.

They do in real football anyway and I thought the whole idea was to relate it closer to real football language. An advanced striker in real football will be looking to make forward runs in behind the opposition defence.

I don't get this theory of a striker in an advanced role not having to make forward runs as he's already in attack.

TT&F always recommended forward runs often for an advanced pacey striker and it's always worked for me like it would do in real life.

Personally, I find the change in description rather strange.

Taken from the new online manual:

Forward Runs

This slider controls how often your players make forward runs without the ball. ‘Often’ will see the player push into attacking positions and attempt to get by their marker – for wide players and full-backs this will increase the likelihood of overlapping runs. ‘Rarely’ will order the players to stand their ground and attempt to play their way through or around an opponent rather than going past them.

Now ask yourself, "Would you want your lightning quick striker to stand their ground and attempt to play their way through or around an opponent rather than going past him"?

The setting for an Advanced Forward (and other striker roles) is 'sometimes' rather than 'rarely'. He will never be asked to stand his ground.

In game terms... Set to 'often' he is limited to attempting to break the defensive line which may lead to him getting isolated or regularly flagged offside. Set to 'sometimes' he still has that option, but can also pick the ball up in front of the defender and run at him (which can be more dangerous), or get involved in other build up play. Decisions, off the ball and team work would naturally factor into it. I think this more accurately reflects how an advanced forward plays, though there is nothing wrong with the first approach if you don't mind playing the percentages. There is nothing to say you can't use 'often' to good effect (and I have in past versions).

To be honest I'm not convinced either phrase (Forward Runs or Run From Deep) really works, so the question in the title has some merit. One logically encourages you to set it to 'often', while the other implies that it is irrelevant and therefore should be set to 'rarely'.

You may have a point regarding how it relates to football language, but this is how it works in FM and you should be able to get the striker playing how you want, which is the most important thing. Whatever the rights and wrongs, the Advanced Forward role will act as you would expect, even if the setting is 'sometimes' rather than 'often'.

The setting for an Advanced Forward (and other striker roles) is 'sometimes' rather than 'rarely'. He will never be asked to stand his ground.

In game terms... Set to 'often' he is limited to attempting to break the defensive line which may lead to him getting isolated or regularly flagged offside. Set to 'sometimes' he still has that option, but can also pick the ball up in front of the defender and run at him (which can be more dangerous), or get involved in other build up play. Decisions, off the ball and team work would naturally factor into it. I think this more accurately reflects how an advanced forward plays, though there is nothing wrong with the first approach if you don't mind playing the percentages. There is nothing to say you can't use 'often' to good effect (and I have in past versions).

To be honest I'm not convinced either phrase (Forward Runs or Run From Deep) really works, so the question in the title has some merit. One logically encourages you to set it to 'often', while the other implies that it is irrelevant and therefore should be set to 'rarely'.

You may have a point regarding how it relates to football language, but this is how it works in FM and you should be able to get the striker playing how you want, which is the most important thing. Whatever the rights and wrongs, the Advanced Forward role will act as you would expect, even if the setting is 'sometimes' rather than 'often'.

A good reply.

Thanks for that as it's cleared things up in my mind.

The setting for an Advanced Forward (and other striker roles) is 'sometimes' rather than 'rarely'.

This isn't true actually. The instruction varies depending on the selected strategy.

The following settings come up when flicking through the three main strategies.

Attacking:

Deep ST - sometimes

Advanced ST - rarely

Standard:

Deep ST - sometimes

Advanced ST - sometimes

Defensive:

Deep ST - often

Advanced ST - sometimes

If you think about mentality in terms of its positioning instruction, when you play with a defensive mentality, your striker will generally take up more cautious/deeper positions on the pitch. On the other hand, when you play with an attacking mentality, he will generally position himself higher up the pitch. Therefore, in one instance he is making 'runs from deep' and in the other instance his position, when you attack, will be such that he does not need to make 'runs from deep'.

It's important to recognise that by setting 'runs from deep' to rarely, you are not telling your striker that you don't want him to make forward runs. There are a couple of reasons for this:

1) Rarely doesn't mean never. It just means don't do it very often. So he will still make forward runs but he will only do this when the opportunity is clearly there.

2) The attacking strategy of the tactics creator uses 'counter-attack' as a default. Another much misunderstood option by many of us (myself included), 'counter-attack' is actually a mode which comes into play when there is space to exploit (essentially when you have a man over). It changes 'runs from deep' and mentality. So, essentially, if there is a chance to break from a deep position (when your side has been defending), your striker will still get forward and make 'runs from deep'.

Otherwise, in the attacking strategy, your attacking play will involve your striker leading the line, playing high up the pitch on the shoulder of the last defender but only looking to get beyond him when a clear opportunity presents itself.

The change of the name to 'runs from deep' does make sense when you think about it. It is actually a tool to get players from deeper positions (wide players, fullbacks or wingbacks etc.) to get forward to support the attack.

In terms of strikers though, things work slightly differently. If their natural positioning on the pitch is quite deep (i.e. mentality is defensive) there is generally more space in front of them to exploit. Thus, you generally want your forward(s) to be ready to break through the opposition's high defensive line and to exploit that space. Forward runs mixed or often is more useful here and it is renamed 'runs from deep' because that's exactly what is happening. On the other hand, if the strikers have a natural positioning which takes them higher up the pitch (i.e. mentality is attacking) you generally want your forward(s) to stay high on the pitch but not to make forward runs beyond their opponent too often because there is not much space to exploit in behind them. Forward runs mixed or rarely is more useful here. You do not want them to make 'runs from deep' because they will not often be in a deep position to do so.

Thus the forward runs slider has been renamed 'runs from deep' in order to give a better description what it is supposed to do. That's my understanding of it anyway.

Regards,

C.

Damn it - you're right!

Anyway... just to make it clear, an Advanced Striker behaves as you would want because the setting is matched to the strategy and his position/mentality.

I understand what you're saying but still have a problem with it when compared to real football.

Could you imagine a manager in real life before a match saying to his pacy striker, "Ok, we're going to play with an attacking philosophy but I want you to rarely make any forward runs"?

Also if what crouchaldinho and playmaker say is correct and I'm sure it is, shouldn't the official manual give a better description than this?

Forward Runs

This slider controls how often your players make forward runs without the ball. ‘Often’ will see the player push into attacking positions and attempt to get by their marker – for wide players and full-backs this will increase the likelihood of overlapping runs. ‘Rarely’ will order the players to stand their ground and attempt to play their way through or around an opponent rather than going past them.

I understand what you're saying but still have a problem with it when compared to real football.

Could you imagine a manager in real life before a match saying to his pacy striker, "Ok, we're going to play with an attacking philosophy but I want you to rarely make any forward runs"?

Also if what crouchaldinho and playmaker say is correct and I'm sure it is, shouldn't the official manual give a better description than this?

Forward Runs

This slider controls how often your players make forward runs without the ball. ‘Often’ will see the player push into attacking positions and attempt to get by their marker – for wide players and full-backs this will increase the likelihood of overlapping runs. ‘Rarely’ will order the players to stand their ground and attempt to play their way through or around an opponent rather than going past them.

Hey Footynut,

I think part of the problem is that the above definition is for FM08/09 and not for FM10. I think, for FM10, SI have tried to nail down some better definitions and they have tried to rename options that were previously not logically or correctly named (roam from position & run from deep being the two I can think of immediately).

I have just checked the FM10 manual and I have to say that I am extremely surprised to find that they are still referring to 'forward runs' and 'free roles' and the definitions haven't changed from previous FMs! Well, making a good instruction manual was never one of SI's strengths now, was it?

Anyway, going back to your example of saying 'ok, we're going to play with an attacking philosophy but I want you to rarely make any forward runs', I would argue that it is different to this. It's actually more like saying: 'ok, we're going to play with an attacking philosophy and so I want you to take up a naturally high position on the pitch when attacking, playing deep in the final third and spearheading the attack'. Furthermore, when giving runs from deep often during defensive strategies, you are saying: 'ok, we're going to play defensively today and so I want you to take up a cautious and defensive position on the pitch, but then I want you to get forward from your deep position (i.e. make runs from deep)'.

Make any sense?

Regards,

C.

It's actually more like saying: 'ok, we're going to play with an attacking philosophy and so I want you to take up a naturally high position on the pitch when attacking, playing deep in the final third and spearheading the attack'.

"but don't make any forward runs"???

Furthermore, when giving runs from deep often during defensive strategies, you are saying: 'ok, we're going to play defensively today and so I want you to take up a cautious and defensive position on the pitch, but then I want you to get forward from your deep position (i.e. make runs from deep)'.

Could also argue here that even when playing defensive one striker would still be positioned around about the halfway line and more often than not would be then running back towards his own goal to show for the ball.

I can understand what you're saying but I'm still not convinced.

I probably should have posted this in the Tactics Forum. Is it possible for a mod to move it there please?

"but don't make any forward runs"???

There is no such slider in FM10.

Could also argue here that even when playing defensive one striker would still be positioned around about the halfway line and more often than not would be then running back towards his own goal to show for the ball.

That's what the deep-lying striker will do. His mentality is set sufficiently low (compared to the rest of his team) that he will start his 'runs from deep' later, which means he will 'show for the ball' but also make runs from deep to make late runs into attacking positions.

In footballing language, 'hold your position, show for the ball, but then make runs from deep to support your strike partner'.

Regards,

C.

There is no such slider in FM10.

So are we saying that all along Forward Runs was the wrong description because that's not what the manual has been saying all these years? In FM10 how do I get my pacy forward sitting on the shoulder of the last defender (not positioned deep) to make forward runs? By giving him a high mentality?

In my opinion changing Forward Runs to Run from Deep is more than a bit confusing.

At the end of the day one could argue that Forward Runs and Runs from Deep are two entirely different types of runs anyway.

That's one for SI Footynut. I don't think writing a clear manual has ever been one of their strengths.