Is ME fundamentally flawed?

Well maybe not fundamentally but it surely is flawed.The players when playing away simply cannot hold the ball well under pressure I.E. Gk cannot make short pass to the nearest player cause he will always lose the ball. That means you must play with two players upfront when playing away which is ridiculous cause most teams play 4-5-1 away and in FM this formation is reserved for good teams only and we all know it should be a defensive formation (or something like it). Also defensively the players positioning it is pretty flawed too. The players should be more capable of retaining possession than they are now. The main problem is that offense and defense are not balanced enough.

P.S. Sorry for the bad English

Sorry but the ME is definately NOT fundementally flawed but more the best it has ever been in my opinion and reflects the tactics and the way the teams play whether its 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-3-3 better than last year and thats all I ask is that SI are improving the 3D part of the game, which is only in its second year of development.

The only problem I have with the me is that when i have a corner and the ball comes lose in the half and my player knocks it back in for some reason they are offside every time, without fail.

It feels flawed to me in many ways.

I have been playing since CM2 and this seems the most flawed match engine yet (imo).

There are so many things I have noticed already and to be honest, I have stopped playing because it just feels so unrealistic and flawed, and I am thinking of just selling my game. I feel very disappointed.

An example would be when I was playing against Blackburn and they played a through ball over the top of my defense. The ball reached my box and my defender, who was about 10 yards closer than their most advanced forward, just stood still and didnt move toward the ball. To make it worse, my keeper, who was about 5 yards away from the ball, also just stood still and let their most advanced striker take the ball and score. This angered me and just makes it not enjoyable as it does not resemble the experience we are trying to simulate.

This has happened a couple of times and I'm still only in September of my first season!

Also I continually notice my attacking players standing still when the ball comes near them or when an opposition in possession comes near them, even when I have them set to close down. When the opposition have a corner and my defenders clear the ball, my wide forward(s) (inside forwards) stand still and make no attempt to pick up the clearance.

Another thing that is really annoying and happens EVERY TIME I have a corner and the opposing defense clears, is that one of the three players that are staying back for me (usually DMC) will head it back into the box; even though he has acres of space, he doesn't take it under control and size up his options and make a good measured, decisive short pass to a free team-mate; instead he just heads it back in where it will wither be cleared again or caught by the opposing goalkeeper.

There are many other issues in the match engine that have pretty much made the game unplayable for me. Please don't consider this a rant or just a moan; I am a dedicated FM player and have enjoyed the game for 12 years now. I have never came on these forums and complained but I just feel that there are so much issues that seriously affect gameplay that have to be looked at here. I am very surprised these issues haven't been raised by more players of the game.

I would like to know if others experience these problems or additional problems. I haven't listed all because I'm just writing quickly off the top of my head.

P.S. I also think the animations look weird. I don't know how I can elaborate really, but the jumping and shooting (and more) at times just don't look right. Some times the shot is already in the back off the net or over the bar before the player has seemed to even shift his body in the right direction.

That means you must play with two players upfront when playing away which is ridiculous cause most teams play 4-5-1 away and in FM this formation is reserved for good teams only and we all know it should be a defensive formation (or something like it).

From personal experience, I do think some of the defending could be improved in the match engine, but some of the symptoms you point to in attacking play may be because you have incorrectly connected formation with attacking intent. To quote myself from 'Tactical Visions' (bundled with Tactical Theorems 10)...

Throughout the history of football the great tacticians have used formation to answer a specific problem or requirement, usually finding space to attack or denying space for opponents to attack. The formation should come about as a conclusion to your chosen style of play and overall aims and in itself is neutral. That is, no formation is overtly defensive or attacking, but rather it is the instructions that are issued to the players that make it so.

Rappan’s ‘Verrou’ (a.k.a. Swiss Bolt) employed the same 1-3-3-3 formation as the imperious Dutch brand of ‘Total Football’ that dominated the 70s, yet it was employed as a rigid spoiling tactic and was vastly different to the fluid football of Cruyff and Neeskens.

Likewise, playing more forwards does not automatically mean you will be able to attack more. Indeed, it may be difficult to get the ball far enough forward to take advantage of the extra men. Withdrawing forwards may actually increase possession and therefore create more attacking situations. Formation is, as the heading suggests, merely a means to an end.

I think if you are able to put aside your preconceived ideas you might get more enjoyment out of the match engine. To clarify, the article is based on a far more expert opinion than mine, from a well respected author.

Best advice i can give is to turn off the 3d visuals. The actual ME seems fine to me but some of the visual representations are not working properly. I was playing with 3D on and laughing at the gameplay, players running away from the ball, players watching the ball, goalkeepers being utterly unable to save anything.....

Changed back to 2D and it looks much better. The actual ME is no different and it hasnt (or shouldnt have!) changed the results but it makes the game experience far better. It helps my results performance in an indirect way - When watching the 3D i was getting so frustrated at the bizarre stuff that i was making changes/tweaks for the wrong reasons, which only worsened my performance. With 2D i make tweaks far more calmly.

The only way i could find to explain the 3D (and this is probably wrong!) is that the ME is based on an extremely complex algorithm. In the first scenario Maran has set out lets say it looks at all the factors (so maybe tired team being told to push up, faster striker, goalie with poor rushing out etc) and it comes to the conclusion that the current set of factors mean tha Blackburn should create a goalscoring chance. This is the ME working correctly.

however, when the ME algorithm tells the 3D to produce a visual representation of this, the 3D comes up with a strange way to do it (which is what you see, and have described).

Seriously, try a few matches in 2D and come back and post what you think?

The ME is not in its 2nd year of development and as far as I know, there is no difference between commentary, 2d or 3d. Same ME...

Bednar, the match engine calculates player movements and actions in minute time slices (8 per second if memory serves me correctly). There is no 'the game comes to the conclusion that a goalscoring chance should be created' it is 22 individual reactions 8 times a second.

The players will be in identical locations whether represented in 2D or 3D. You can prove this by pausing the action and switching between views. If players run away from the ball in 3D, they will also do it in 2D. The difference in you perception can probably be explained by the size of the circle compared to the size of the 3D player - the centre of each will be in the same location, but the circle will cover a larger area.

Oh no, not even a week and we've got 'fundamentally flawed' underway as part of the post-release repetitive-use-of-inappropriate out-of-context cliche thread.

It's not flawed.

All views are the same ME.

There is no conspiracy.

Oh, and it's your tactics like playmaker said.

Best advice i can give is to turn off the 3d visuals. The actual ME seems fine to me but some of the visual representations are not working properly. I was playing with 3D on and laughing at the gameplay, players running away from the ball, players watching the ball, goalkeepers being utterly unable to save anything.....

Changed back to 2D and it looks much better. The actual ME is no different and it hasnt (or shouldnt have!) changed the results but it makes the game experience far better. It helps my results performance in an indirect way - When watching the 3D i was getting so frustrated at the bizarre stuff that i was making changes/tweaks for the wrong reasons, which only worsened my performance. With 2D i make tweaks far more calmly.

The only way i could find to explain the 3D (and this is probably wrong!) is that the ME is based on an extremely complex algorithm. In the first scenario Maran has set out lets say it looks at all the factors (so maybe tired team being told to push up, faster striker, goalie with poor rushing out etc) and it comes to the conclusion that the current set of factors mean tha Blackburn should create a goalscoring chance. This is the ME working correctly.

however, when the ME algorithm tells the 3D to produce a visual representation of this, the 3D comes up with a strange way to do it (which is what you see, and have described).

Seriously, try a few matches in 2D and come back and post what you think?

Thanks for replying to my post and I hear what you're saying but this does not resolve my problem(s).

The point you make about factors such as tiredness, poor rushing out etc. resulting in the gaming coming to a "conclusion" that the opposition should create a scoring chance is fair enough, but it still does not excuse my players standing completely still (actually, moving further away from the ball). This is completely unrealistic and, aside from looking awful, completely ruins the gaming experience as it supposed to be a simulation, a close-to-real life experience in the game of football.

I do understand your explanation on how the ME works and how the ME determines things that may result in such bugs, but there is no getting away from the fact that this is just not acceptable. I'm sorry, but I can not play the game when my defenders and goalkeeper run away from a dangerous ball just because the ME has decided that the other team should score.

This, if it is the case, is a flaw.

I dont think ME decides that other team should score. On away games our players are mentally weaker which obviously affects their judgement but this is somehow the case IRL too. I agree that sometimes this leads to crazy mistakes which can happen very rarely IRL but the truth is statistically home teams are doing better; and to reflect this FM away teams are mentally weaker.

The same pass which goes just fine to intended place at home, goes 30 degrees to wrong direction in away game

I think you guys missed my point abit. I did state that the 2d doesnt do anything different than the 3d.

Just try watching a few games in 2d and see if it changes your enjoyment of the game, is all i am saying,

I like the new match engine, it looks much more like a real game of football than previous versions. For the most part it's the most realistic match engine there has been. On the other hand, I always play lower leagues and there are a few extremes that need to be addressed.

For example, I think they need to tone down the frequency of massive 2nd half/2nd leg comebacks. They need to tone down games ending 3-2 with every goal being a long shot, especially in League 1 (which to be fair is my only experience of the game so far). The game should acknowledge that these events happen from time to time but at the moment I feel they're far too frequent.

On some occasions it seems like the match engine reaches a point where you can no longer have an influence on it, and a team will come back against you regardless of whether you go defensive or continue attacking just because their manager picked the right team talk at half time.

I actually think that making a somewhat enjoyable 2d vision is being detrimental to the 3d vision... Players in real life get much closer to each other, closing down, dribbling past players, etc, than what they do if you look at the current 3d vision. Now if SI changed this, translating it to the current 2d view, with such big "dots" for each player (which I reckon is necessary for us to be able to see what is going on), would look weird because dots would need to be almost on top of each other very often. Now, I believe that the future of the game is definitely 3d, so that is what SI games should care about improving, even if it means a less enjoyable 2d version of the game.

It feels flawed to me in many ways.

I have been playing since CM2 and this seems the most flawed match engine yet (imo).

There are so many things I have noticed already and to be honest, I have stopped playing because it just feels so unrealistic and flawed, and I am thinking of just selling my game. I feel very disappointed.

An example would be when I was playing against Blackburn and they played a through ball over the top of my defense. The ball reached my box and my defender, who was about 10 yards closer than their most advanced forward, just stood still and didnt move toward the ball. To make it worse, my keeper, who was about 5 yards away from the ball, also just stood still and let their most advanced striker take the ball and score. This angered me and just makes it not enjoyable as it does not resemble the experience we are trying to simulate.

This has happened a couple of times and I'm still only in September of my first season!

Also I continually notice my attacking players standing still when the ball comes near them or when an opposition in possession comes near them, even when I have them set to close down. When the opposition have a corner and my defenders clear the ball, my wide forward(s) (inside forwards) stand still and make no attempt to pick up the clearance.

Another thing that is really annoying and happens EVERY TIME I have a corner and the opposing defense clears, is that one of the three players that are staying back for me (usually DMC) will head it back into the box; even though he has acres of space, he doesn't take it under control and size up his options and make a good measured, decisive short pass to a free team-mate; instead he just heads it back in where it will wither be cleared again or caught by the opposing goalkeeper.

There are many other issues in the match engine that have pretty much made the game unplayable for me. Please don't consider this a rant or just a moan; I am a dedicated FM player and have enjoyed the game for 12 years now. I have never came on these forums and complained but I just feel that there are so much issues that seriously affect gameplay that have to be looked at here. I am very surprised these issues haven't been raised by more players of the game.

I would like to know if others experience these problems or additional problems. I haven't listed all because I'm just writing quickly off the top of my head.

P.S. I also think the animations look weird. I don't know how I can elaborate really, but the jumping and shooting (and more) at times just don't look right. Some times the shot is already in the back off the net or over the bar before the player has seemed to even shift his body in the right direction.

Well It happens on mine too. The defenders are running along the striker and all of the sudden they stop. GK have the ball in less then two meters and don't rush out to grab the ball, they simply hesitate (which is absolutely unreal, because even lower league GK wouldn't hesitate) to grab the ball.

Even one time when the ball rebound of player isolated their striker and my GK and when striker shot the ball my goal GK doesn't dive to grab the ball.

I agree This ME affects gameplay, however I feel is slightly improvement compared to FM09 ME, but doesn't beat FM07 ME.

Well It happens on mine too. The defenders are running along the striker and all of the sudden they stop. GK have the ball in less then two meters and don't rush out to grab the ball, they simply hesitate (which is absolutely unreal, because even lower league GK would hesitate) to grab the ball.

Even one time when the ball rebound of player isolated their striker and my GK and when striker shot the ball my goal GK doesn't dive to grab the ball.

I agree This ME affects gameplay, however I feel is slightly improvement compared to FM09 ME, but doesn't beat FM07 ME.

Totally agree. I love the actual in game features of FM2010 but the Match Engine for me is ruining the experience of it. I am not criticising Si or anyone else who tests or makes the game but at the moment I am not happy with the Match Engine.

I STILL think FM2007 engine is better. FM2008 engine frustrated me with the lack of closing down, I never bothered to buy 2009 after reading about all the bugs on it and I have bought 2010 but after finishing a season I have stopped playing it because the ME is making it unplayable for me.

As you say with regards to the keepers... I am a goalkeeper for a local Saturday league team and if the ball is loose 5 yards in front of me and the attacker is chasing it down I will make every effort to gather it in before the striker gets to it. On FM2010 if the ball falls 4-5 yards in front of the keeper he will stand there sometimes and the striker will run in and tap it in. Absolutely unrealistic.

Totally agree. I love the actual in game features of FM2010 but the Match Engine for me is ruining the experience of it. I am not criticising Si or anyone else who tests or makes the game but at the moment I am not happy with the Match Engine.

I STILL think FM2007 engine is better. FM2008 engine frustrated me with the lack of closing down, I never bothered to buy 2009 after reading about all the bugs on it and I have bought 2010 but after finishing a season I have stopped playing it because the ME is making it unplayable for me.

As you say with regards to the keepers... I am a goalkeeper for a local Saturday league team and if the ball is loose 5 yards in front of me and the attacker is chasing it down I will make every effort to gather it in before the striker gets to it. On FM2010 if the ball falls 4-5 yards in front of the keeper he will stand there sometimes and the striker will run in and tap it in. Absolutely unrealistic.

Completely agree here. Glad to see there are others who feel the same by their gaming experience being affected by this flawed ME. I too feel I cannot play the game anymore and have given up before I have even got started. I would like to call for SI to look at these issues and fix them ASAP in a 2nd edition of 10.1 patch, but I doubt that could happen, could it?

Completely agree here. Glad to see there are others who's gaming experience is being affected by this flawed ME. I too feel I cannot play the game anymore and have given up before I have even got started. I would like to call for SI to look at these issues and fix them ASAP in a 2nd edition of 10.1 patch, but I doubt that could happen, could it?

For my own experience with FM08 and FM09 that will be unlikely. But who knows for sure?

I'm glad some people feel the same as me. I love Football Manager, I would never stop buying the games but I just feel disapointed with the ME at the moment. Sometimes it feels like a random match, feels like there is no dominance by having far better players. The keeper being stuck on the line in obvious situations is very frustrating and theres a lot of other things too which frustrate me.

I didn't really want to but it's back to FM2007 again for me. (no doubt that will spark a few comments)

Well, I might give it ago one or two matches on 2D in FM10, but I eager to go back to FM07 due to the fun factor.

I am another guy who is fully in support of this thread. I love the FM10 features but absolutely cannot stand the match engine, and it is going to cause me to drop the game because I am bored with it. The long shots, the stupid defenders, the stupid goalies, etc....on and on and on the ME just flat out sucks IMO.