Concerned that players stats drop too much aged 31

Gone 3 seasons into the game now and when players reach the age of 31 their stats and currently ability drops massively.

Ronalindho who at the age of 32 isnt over the hill by any means had his ca dropped to only 136. AC Milan understandably no longer wants him and he's getting a free. I also noticed Chivu aged 31 who as a defender shouldnt have his stats and ca drop so quickly compared to forwards is in the same situation with an ability drop to 138

This has happened in previous fms as well and I think players become over the hill at too early an age

I would reckon that Ronaldinho would be the type of player whose stats will decrease massively IRL (not the best lifestyle for a Paolo Maldini career) and Chivu is a player who has suffered injuries in the past and so would be a possible candidate for early retirement too.

I found in 09 that the top players stayed on too long, thus having John Terry as a 38 y.o. Englan International, it kind of killed a lot of teams having all the old players staying around and no youth development.

I find that too.It's better to have players play longer like in FM 09 than shorter like FM 08

From one extreme to another...

I hope it's not back. I remember in FM08 every player, As soon as they got past 30 their stats decreased rapidly. But this was sorted on FM09..?

I have also found this too with my top striker but at 31. My coach keeps telling me every month how one of his attirbutes had dropped.

Gone 3 seasons into the game now and when players reach the age of 31 their stats and currently ability drops massively.

Ronalindho who at the age of 32 isnt over the hill by any means had his ca dropped to only 136. AC Milan understandably no longer wants him and he's getting a free. I also noticed Chivu aged 31 who as a defender shouldnt have his stats and ca drop so quickly compared to forwards is in the same situation with an ability drop to 138

This has happened in previous fms as well and I think players become over the hill at too early an age

With respect, I don't believe you can make such a generalized comment based on the progression of just two players. Particularly with someone like Ronaldinho who at the age of 29 is nowhere near the player he was at the age of 26.

I found in 09 that the top players stayed on too long, thus having John Terry as a 38 y.o. Englan International, it kind of killed a lot of teams having all the old players staying around and no youth development.

This issue is fixed this year. Ultra professional players, such as Terry or Lampard, will remain at their peak age for longer than a 'average' player, but not so long that they are still world beaters at the age of 38.

I have also found this too with my top striker but at 31. My coach keeps telling me every month how one of his attirbutes had dropped.

Strikers will be prone to declining earlier than other positions.

Cheers.

I would reckon that Ronaldinho would be the type of player whose stats will decrease massively IRL (not the best lifestyle for a Paolo Maldini career) and Chivu is a player who has suffered injuries in the past and so would be a possible candidate for early retirement too.

I found in 09 that the top players stayed on too long, thus having John Terry as a 38 y.o. Englan International, it kind of killed a lot of teams having all the old players staying around and no youth development.

ok fair enough on those players however

just found these players

robbie keane aged 31 transfer listed with ability of 139

roque santa cruz aged 30 ability 132 transfer listed

john carew transfer listed aged 32 ability 125 transfer listed

fabio aurellio transfer listed aged 32 ability 130 transfer listed

Ability fluctuations should occur with age, but if it proves to be the general rule that players past 30 experience major ability losses (which indeed marred previous versions), then I have to say it casts dark shadows over my save game yet in its first season. Of these two evils, which somehow never seem to be avoided, I would prefer the abilities to last too long rather than decrease too rapidly.

I am eager to see some more data on this issue: surveys with major data samples from long term games including variables such as age, ability, playing position and also professionalism. The examples so far really aren't decisive if there are many counterexamples - ability fluctuations really should occur, we should rather be alerted if this proves to be a general trend. We can't jump to this conlusion from the data so far presented, however, having played previous versions we have all reason to have doubts.

So I guess the game couldn't replicate a Zidane scenario? still being world class at 34.

ok fair enough on those players however

just found these players

robbie keane aged 31 transfer listed with ability of 139

roque santa cruz aged 30 ability 132 transfer listed

john carew transfer listed aged 32 ability 125 transfer listed

fabio aurellio transfer listed aged 32 ability 130 transfer listed

And you believe this to be an issue?

For strikers aged 31+ at the beginning of the game based in the Premier League only Didier Drogba is significantly above the level of the players you list. So thats not a problem.

Of left backs aged 32+ at the begining of the game based in the Premier League the ability levels are practically the same as Aurellio, so again this isn't an issue.

So I guess the game couldn't replicate a Zidane scenario? still being world class at 34.

I can pretty much guarantee you that Frank Lampard will still be exceptional at the age of 34. So yes the game can handle this.

ok fair enough on those players however

just found these players

robbie keane aged 31 transfer listed with ability of 139

roque santa cruz aged 30 ability 132 transfer listed

john carew transfer listed aged 32 ability 125 transfer listed

fabio aurellio transfer listed aged 32 ability 130 transfer listed

I would reckon Robbie Kean to be a player to fade early (and I'm Irish to so not happy about that, it's just the way he plays). Santa Cruz I don't know about, Carew and Aurelio are both players wh have been plagued by major injuries over the years so their longevity is going to be down.

To Stu yay about that, although being an Irish Man Utd fan I can't see John Terry being ultra professional (though he might have changed since all the tabloid reports).

And you believe this to be an issue?

yes i believe it is an issue as the players are never being used as well as no club wanting to sign them so they sit and rot in the free transfer market

Thanks for the responses. So presumably a regen can be brought into the game who has very high professionalism, how would this be determined? for example how many players would still be top class at 34? what if a player has several long term injuries, will this take away from stats that promote longevity?

You're complaining that Ronaldinho won't be wanted at 32? No ****. There is a underlying concern about his fitness for years, I can't imagine him being at a top club at that age IRL. And can you see a 32 year old Aurelio being held on by Liverpool in real life? Again, I doubt it.

I bought van Nistelrooy in my first year for LFC, and I don't see any problems with his stats. And he is still lethal.

What I wonder (don't have FM10 yet) is if those old players who are transfer listed because their abilities declined are willing to go to a lower league where they can be an addition to a team. Any experiences with this?

I bought van Nistelrooy in my first year for LFC, and I don't see any problems with his stats. And he is still lethal.

I brought fat ronaldo for chelsea and he is 33 and still bangs in the goals, the only stats to decrease was his pace and acceleration.

What I wonder (don't have FM10 yet) is if those old players who are transfer listed because their abilities declined are willing to go to a lower league where they can be an addition to a team. Any experiences with this?

While arguably lower league, I was able to sign Viduka and Camara which were absolute steals to my MLS team so I'd imagine a lot of players would sign to a team with a similar CA as theirs. Watch out though because like said, a lot of players ratings start to plummet.

Got to say though that overall the model is far, far better this year - AI teams seem to invest in and develop youth, whilst ridding themselves of the dead-wood ... so no more teamsheets with 10 players over the age of 36!

I'd also say that at the top level, aside from the cream of the division - 31 + would seem a good time to drop off and down a division if necessary ... unless of course its a Lampard or Terry type....

I think most of the players one way or another start declining after 30. If they are training well and stay healthy the affect is not visible quickly but for majority of the players the 29 year old versions are much better than 33 year old versions.

The OP gave Ronaldinho as an example and said he was given free transfer from Milan at the age of 32; I think it is a bug, Ronaldinho can not stay that long in Milan he is having his last top-class effort this season to make it into WC squad of Brazil and after that it will be a super fast decline for him and very likely 2011 winter he is going East for big money with less running or already heading back home to Brazil.

Key attributes that contribute to the longevity of a player are mainly Determination, Professionalism, Natural Fitness and Injury Proneness. The players who go on and keep their talent into their late 30's are rare and it is hard to say an exact percentage for them, but it would be fairly low. Likewise, players with the above attributes at very low level will tend to peak earlier than the average player.

Several long term injuries during a players career will definitely have an effect on his progress and before his development peak they will hinder his progress, while long term injuries after he has hit his peak will only serve to accelerate his decline naturally.

Thanks again. So if we imagine the below scenario.

A player has an injury prone stat of 1 and a ca of 165 at the age of 28, he then gets two bad injuries in the next couple of season that see his stats drop to say 154, he is now 30 with a ca of 154 and injury free. Presuming he has very high professionalism he should hold onto a high ca for a lot longer? obviously with such a slow injury prone stat it's unlikely he will get two long term injuries but it's possible.

Also could you confirm if someone has a low injury prone stat are they just as likely to be out for a long time as a player with 20? once the injury has taken place of course. Basically looking to see if the stat has any effect on the length or type of injury.

Thanks very much.

how do you find out the player ability points

how do you find out the player ability points

FMRTE (Football Manager Real Time Editor)

Just do a search on the forums and you'll find a fair bit of info on it.

EDIT: Wrong one what am I thinking its FM Scout I believe.

Heck I don't really know tbh I've never used them.

I think physical stats are going down way too fast. As soon as players hit 29/30 they are losing pace and acceleration. I had Adriano and sold him at 29 when he should be at his peak, cos he already started losing acceleration and pace. Same for Rosicky and Owen. Should be more like 32 that this decline starts, as in FM09.

It's the same with defenders also, as soon as they hit 30 they lose a point for acceleration and pace.

Well, in my game Gerrard has just hit 32, his acceleration and pace is now 10 and 11 (down from 14 and 15). That's a huge drop from what he starts at at 29. He's now on Liverpool's bench and can no longer get into the England squad, which is a bit much at just turned 32. Think it's dropping a little bit too fast in my opinion, in FM09, players wouldn't start losing pace and acceleration till 32, whereas Gerrard is now almost totally finished at the same age in this years game.

I could understand if they had maybe dropped by 1 or 2 points max by 32, but 4 each?

Physical attributes start to slowly decline when player is past 30 years old (the exact limit depends on things like injury proneness etc.) and naturally it will be harder for players to uphold very high physical attributes in the later stage of their career. There is no fixed rate of decline for things like acceleration and pace that would force a drop once the player is past certain age.

It's about getting the balance right. You don't want Gerrard playing for England till 38, but you also don't want him being finished at 32. Have you maybe tweaked it too much this year? At 32, Gerrard has acceleration/pace at 10 and 11, when he started on 14 and 15, he's on Liverpool's bench and can't get into the England squad anymore.

With respect, I don't believe you can make such a generalized comment based on the progression of just two players. Particularly with someone like Ronaldinho who at the age of 29 is nowhere near the player he was at the age of 26.

This issue is fixed this year. Ultra professional players, such as Terry or Lampard, will remain at their peak age for longer than a 'average' player, but not so long that they are still world beaters at the age of 38.

Strikers will be prone to declining earlier than other positions.

Cheers.

Some more examples-

Adriano 30 yrs old- Acceleration has dropped from 15 to 12, Pace from 13 to 10.

Xavi 32 yrs old- Acceleration has dropped from 11 to 9, Pace from 13 to 11

Terry 31 yrs old- Acceleration has dropped from 11 to 8, Pace from 12 to 10

Why has it dropped so much though? They're only 32 and 31 respectively? Gerrard has lost 4 in acceleration and 4 in pace for example, isn't even a regular for Liverpool let alone in the England squad anymore, is it not going down a bit too fast? Terry has lost 4 and 2 acc/pace and is just 31 and a centre-back.

Okay their pace/acc has dropped, but look at the rest of their stats! They're still top quality players that should be good enough for most teams.

Why has it dropped so much though? They're only 32 and 31 respectively? Gerrard has lost 4 in acceleration and 4 in pace for example, isn't even a regular for Liverpool let alone in the England squad anymore, is it not going down a bit too fast? Terry has lost 4 and 2 acc/pace and is just 31 and a centre-back.

I would guess that training schedules play in quite a bit, and most players lose alot of speed after passing 30, eventhough, to be honest, if we look at most players I'd say it would start when they turn 32-33 rather than 30.

Okay their pace/acc has dropped, but look at the rest of their stats! They're still top quality players that should be good enough for most teams.

But something has happened with the CA as Gerrard is now on the bench in his game and barring any serious injuries he'll still be their main man at 32.

I'm not an expert on this, but regarding the Gerrard being on the bench issue: Doesn't it also depend on who Liverpool have bought. If they had a super new midfielder that is younger and more talented then quite clearly they will get played. I can see where your coming from with the Liverpool Legend arguement but do we really know whether he will still be playing as he is now when hes 32? No one can tell the future. Its likely but.....

Anyone else finding players physical stats dropping way too quickly at 29/30?

Okay their pace/acc has dropped, but look at the rest of their stats! They're still top quality players that should be good enough for most teams.

Pace and acceleration are two very important attributes in FM, especially for a defender. Of course pace and acceleration will drop when players get older. However at 31 and 32 it should not have deteriorated that much. Perhaps for an explosive attacker but defenders and midfielders have a longer life in football.

Having said that, I can not judge if this is a bug or not. Training and playing players a lot will influence their attributes. I think Terry for example should not be used in a general training scheme but in a scheme that emphasizes pace and acceleration since he is not the quickest defender in the world. As long as we play 30+ players a lot, it should mean the CA does not go down to quickly and thus the attributes stay higher for a longer periode of time.

I am just hoping that not all players lose (physical) attributes this quickly. The determination and professionalism of both Terry and Gerrard is quite exceptional so if these two players set the standard of attributes dropping, we are in for a treat (all players with lower determination and professionalism will have attribute drops even quicker).

Just to clarify, I wasn't managing either Terry or Gerrard, they were just two good examples of physical stats deteriorating way too quickly in FM10

Pace and acceleration are two very important attributes in FM, especially for a defender. Of course pace and acceleration will drop when players get older. However at 31 and 32 it should not have deteriorated that much. Perhaps for an explosive attacker but defenders and midfielders have a longer life in football.

Having said that, I can not judge if this is a bug or not. Training and playing players a lot will influence their attributes. I think Terry for example should not be used in a general training scheme but in a scheme that emphasizes pace and acceleration since he is not the quickest defender in the world. As long as we play 30+ players a lot, it should mean the CA does not go down to quickly and thus the attributes stay higher for a longer periode of time.

I am just hoping that not all players lose (physical) attributes this quickly. The determination and professionalism of both Terry and Gerrard is quite exceptional so if these two players set the standard of attributes dropping, we are in for a treat (all players with lower determination and professionalism will have attribute drops even quicker).

Pace and acceleration should not decline in the way it is shown. Look at 100/200m runners - most of the best sprinters were setting world beating times when aged 30+. Sure none of the top 5 times have been set by a 30+ year old - but the rest of the top 10 times are full of 30+ year old sprinters.

At the last olympics 5 out of 16 of the semifinalists were 30+

At the previous olympics 8 out of 16 semifinalists were 30+

That does not indicated that over the age of 30 these sprinters suddenly stop being able to run.

There was even a 36 year old who came 6th in the marathon so stamina shouldnt drop to nothing at this age.

I dont think the problem is that these stats drop, I think the problem is that is so formulaic - when a player gets to 30 he loses 1 point from stamina, pace, acceleration, 31 he loses 2 points etc

I realise thats an over simplification of how it works - but SOME players shouldnt start deteriorating until later, and some should start at 26. Some players were BETTER at 30 than at 25. Arsene wenger always said that sol cambel was the second fastest player in the premiership at 32 (and hes a bit of a stat man so he probably wasnt wrong).

Yea, I really don't think Gerrard should have lost 4 points for both acceleration and pace by the age of 32. It's not just him and Terry, it's happening to all players as soon as they hit 29/30, the physical decline is starting too early and it's too rapid.

Pace and acceleration should not decline in the way it is shown. Look at 100/200m runners - most of the best sprinters were setting world beating times when aged 30+. Sure none of the top 5 times have been set by a 30+ year old - but the rest of the top 10 times are full of 30+ year old sprinters.

At the last olympics 5 out of 16 of the semifinalists were 30+

At the previous olympics 8 out of 16 semifinalists were 30+

That does not indicated that over the age of 30 these sprinters suddenly stop being able to run.

There was even a 36 year old who came 6th in the marathon so stamina shouldnt drop to nothing at this age.

I dont think the problem is that these stats drop, I think the problem is that is so formulaic - when a player gets to 30 he loses 1 point from stamina, pace, acceleration, 31 he loses 2 points etc

I realise thats an over simplification of how it works - but SOME players shouldnt start deteriorating until later, and some should start at 26. Some players were BETTER at 30 than at 25. Arsene wenger always said that sol cambel was the second fastest player in the premiership at 32 (and hes a bit of a stat man so he probably wasnt wrong).

These are still a couple of players though. It could be they had bad injuries. I'm not far enough (or too far with my holiday game with them all retired) to see if it's an "every player" thing at 31 and 32, or if those two suffered more than usual. I was dissapointed with my purchase of Upson for Arsenal though, who has at 30 lost 1 pace, acceleration and stamina already since I bought him. At 10.5 mil he's looking a worse and worse buy all the time, even with a 7.2 average after 27 games. Still, as long as he keeps performing.

on a related note, i've seen some players in the french lower leagues who've never played in the top two divisions in their career, but have technical stats that practically make them world class (i saw one in the fourth tier with 17 for finishing, composure, off the ball and anticipation) together with no physical attributes whatsoever (the above player had 1 for pace, acceleration and stamina)

i think what's happened in this case is the game is auto-generating attributes for players who have current ability listed in the editor but no actualy attributes entered. to take account for their age it's giving them poor physical stats, but in order to match their ca it's having to give them overpowered technical stats

i think the reverse is happening for ageing stars - the game isn't touching their technical stats, so is forced to drop their physical attributes too much to make up for it in order to match the falling ca

this would all suggest that the current model for how players age is a bit skewed

on a related note, i've seen some players in the french lower leagues who've never played in the top two divisions in their career, but have technical stats that practically make them world class (i saw one in the fourth tier with 17 for finishing, composure, off the ball and anticipation) together with no physical attributes whatsoever (the above player had 1 for pace, acceleration and stamina)

i think what's happened in this case is the game is auto-generating attributes for players who have current ability listed in the editor but no actualy attributes entered. to take account for their age it's giving them poor physical stats, but in order to match their ca it's having to give them overpowered technical stats

i think the reverse is happening for ageing stars - the game isn't touching their technical stats, so is forced to drop their physical attributes too much to make up for it in order to match the falling ca

this would all suggest that the current model for how players age is a bit skewed

With respect, the technical stats do drop far slower than physical ones with real players too, while mental often improves.

It is an every player thing. Everyone is starting to lose points for acceleration/pace at 29 or 30, and the decline is far too rapid, and by the time they reach 32 they have lost so many points for acc/pace they are terrible physically.

These are still a couple of players though. It could be they had bad injuries. I'm not far enough (or too far with my holiday game with them all retired) to see if it's an "every player" thing at 31 and 32, or if those two suffered more than usual. I was dissapointed with my purchase of Upson for Arsenal though, who has at 30 lost 1 pace, acceleration and stamina already since I bought him. At 10.5 mil he's looking a worse and worse buy all the time, even with a 7.2 average after 27 games. Still, as long as he keeps performing.

I find it seems to fluctuate wildly in each version - in 07 'old' players often stayed effective for aaages as lots of the regens had dodgy stat distribution and AI team selection was still based too highly on rep, in 08 everyone, and I mean everyone, dropped off MASSIVELY at some point between 30-32 and were all but useless at 33. In 09 it maybe swung a bit far towards old players staying effective again, perhaps because the big clubs other than 'sugar daddy' teams were so incredibly static/passive in squad composition. I haven't personally played anywhere near far enough in FM10 to be sure, but I'd be disappointed if the gist of this thread is correct and we're back to 08 where Maldinis, Zanettis, Baresis, Giggs' etc can never exist.

Obviously the bulk of the decline is in physical stats - this highlights the massive existing problem that 'key' physical stats like pace, acceleration, stamina and jumping are massively overpowered and have been since the rebranding to Football Manager. This is clearly something SI are aware of, as the 'weighting' of player coefficients means that for a player like Theo Walcott with blinding acc/pace to exist with a fairly accurate CA, he has to have the technical ability of a mediocre league one winger to compensate. This in itself is ludicrous, doubly so if they're having acc/pace fall off so quickly at 30-32 - IRL players like Giggs adapt their playing styles around a drop in pace, but this can't happen in the game, and the fastest players have terrible technical stats by design, compounding the problem.

What happens when people get older, they loose abilities they had at a younger age. Giggs is a prime example, extremely pacey winger in his day, but now cant run for longer than 10 second bursts. What he has done is moved infield and into a position that doesnt require him to do alot of physical things.

Last year it was players playing until they were to old, cant please every body. a player that has high. Determination, stamina, strenght, naturel fitness< and is of a professional personality will retain there stats and play on untill they are much older, these type of players are thew and far between.