What on earth is wrong with sweepers?

Have just watched a game on full match using the default "sweeper (defensive)" and Central Defender settings to my horror. No wonder I was conceding so many.

The game doesn't seem to recognise that they're playing a different position, and if you play like this:

.......................SW.......................

RB...................CB.....................LB

the sweeper and the DC by default stand on top of each other:>:> In fact, it's funny to see on the default setting the sweeper pushing forward in front of the DC and trying to deal with threats in front of the defense, and the DC watching behind him.

It's caused a lot of through ball issues, and I play Vargas in left back attacking so it's been accentuated (the through pass problem.) If anyone wants to repeat it just play an attacking left back and the settings above.

I tried in the game to put the sweeper mentality on 1 and leave the DC on 5 or so, and make a contrast in their pressing.. but they still seem to be standing on top of each other even though I've asked the DC to tight Man Mark a striker.

There are other simple footballing things going wrong that even a junior knows with the sweeper. When their keeper takes a long goal kick the sweeper should drop back behind the defense and the tall central defender should challenge for the ball. Instead the sweeper charges out of position to attack it and the DC stays in his default position:S:> hehe... I can include some print screens if you like but it's fairly easy to reproduce.

I'm sure I could put the sweeper on 1 mentality and 1 pressing and the same thing would happen.

It sucks that no real effort has been made to tidy up the engine problems. Now we either have the unfulfilling option of using the presets (very unfullfilling if you clicked "sweeper & DC in unison!":>:>) or the same problems as last year using the sliders which can't make a tactic that doesn't look like swiss cheese with.

In essense this is exactly what I thought would happen. We're going to see a lot of people using the presets and not many people trying their own tactics, a lot of data being given about how these presets are working, but when someone tries to make their own tactic or use a sweeper the most elementary of retardations happens.

When have you ever seen a formation like that?

When have you ever seen a formation like that?

oustide england mate.... or before 1996.....................:S

Oh yeah like in the 1-3-3-3 system. I was thinking of the more conventional sweeper systems. Hmm you could try putting either the sweeper or DC one position to the right or left so that they don't play right on top of each other

haha... yeah I could.. but that's not the idea is it:> I think it shows some pretty symptomatic problems with the game.

1-3-3-3? Not sure what that is:S

I mean a simple 442 with a sweeper. The sweeper position at this stage does not work. Have just tried it with 1 mentality 1 pressing and a standard DC setting and he's still charging in front of the DC to meet high balls. Just shows a lack of testing/care/basic setup of the position imo.

1-3-3-3 was the dutch formation for total football. I see what you're saying though, it should be sorted, but maybe SI didn't really expect people to use a sweeper in a 442 system, as usually a sweeper system would have a sweeper 2 DC, 2WB/FB, 2 MC, 2 wingers and a striker, as 442 is usually just a solid formation without any great invention or flair, so it would not be expected to cope with a variation such as this.

Good point. I would be more understanding if it was a total football "libero" style sweeper, as with the current options that might confuse the sliders as it did in 09 (You can't make someone both attack minded and defensively positioned in their role).

What I think is the saddest thing of all is that this is going to happen more and more often if instead of actually looking at the game they just give presets that work. The slider system was broken, and it still is broken. I can't make my own tactic personally...

Good point. I would be more understanding if it was a total football "libero" style sweeper, as with the current options that might confuse the sliders as it did in 09 (You can't make someone both attack minded and defensively positioned in their role).

What I think is the saddest thing of all is that this is going to happen more and more often if instead of actually looking at the game they just give presets that work. The slider system was broken, and it still is broken. I can't make my own tactic personally...

an example of the latest goal I just copped thanks to Nesta's "sweeping".

To be precise: this is not something that just "happened" once, or was a mistake- this is the default movement for a sweeper, pretty much regardless of his settings.

Oh and, NO, I'm not playing an offside trap:> Despite this, after the ball is played over the top to Miccoli, Nesta (1 mentality 1 pressing) continues to run UP the pitch!!! haha

The presets streamline the data that SI are going to get and it was a bad idea for the future development of the game in general.

Have a similar problem and I play with 3 central defenders or sweeper with 2 man-markers. The central guy/sweeper becomes a ****** who goes charging off when he sees candy. Defensive mentality, no creative freedom, no pressing, nothing works.

It makes me think this is the case: if the sweeper/central guy is disciplined and covers properly, how is the game ever going to make throughpasses work? It's always been a problem, making the AI play better instead of making the opposing factor suck to gain an upper hand. It's just a bloody lazy solution but it's been around for so long.

Haha the forum censors "r*t*rd"!

Did anyone from SI see this? Would be great to get a recognition....

Maybe "it's your tactics" suffices as a response.

And you know, it probably is? I try to replicate football where the game is trying to recreate the story to Little Red Riding Hood. No good can come out of it. Perhaps if you base your tactic on what you think the picnic basket should contain...

Only its not the tactic, play with a back 5, 3DC's and 2 FB, and watch what happens. No matter what you do, that middle DC will go charging off after anything in range and leaving a massive hole which the AI happily lobs a through ball into, and funnily enough, whilst my strikers couldn't finish a one on one if their lives depend on it, the AI strikers clean them up for breakfast.

Sadly, the only real solution I've found is play with a back 4 and an anchorman in front, at least then their aren't as many holes.

I use to sweepers in this Tactic. I concede at most 1 goal in a game... You can see the tactic here. Hammer Head Tactic

I use to sweepers in this Tactic. I concede at most 1 goal in a game... You can see the tactic here. Hammer Head Tactic

Anyone can make/download a freak tactic that warps the engine- just look at that China tactic in the tactics forum with something like 6 strikers and 1 DC. The point is that the default setting for DC/sweeper shows that the sweeper makes some fundamental footballing/positional atrocities that a u/12 player wouldn't make as a default manouver. Recognition I say!

will try bumping this again- Problem: Sweepers charging forward to attack headers/in general when they should automatically step back and let their DC deal with it. SI looking into it would be great, shows a fundamental lack of effort or lack of understanding into the basic role of a sweeper.

A sweeper system is a recipe for defeat in modern football.

Who uses it? nobody does unless they know the are going to win the game at a canter. It is incredibly risky and unless your sweeper is superhuman it will be a disaster. Brazil v Andorra - yes! Any other game - No!

Anyone can make/download a freak tactic that warps the engine- just look at that China tactic in the tactics forum with something like 6 strikers and 1 DC. The point is that the default setting for DC/sweeper shows that the sweeper makes some fundamental footballing/positional atrocities that a u/12 player wouldn't make as a default manouver. Recognition I say!

The default settings in the tactics creator are there as a guide. Too many people are making the mistake of assuming that the creator actually makes a perfectly working tactic, rather than just making it simpler to have the ability to create one.

If your sweeper isn't working, adjust his individual settings (for example make his mentality much lower than your DCs, allow him to roam more or have more freedom, ensure you don't have an offside trap). Perhaps if, as you say you're not playing an offside trap, the SW either has too much freedom or too similar instructions to the DC. Mentality between the two should be rather different imo, and the SW should be able to roam around at the back, but have the sole duty of getting the ball out of danger. Or it could just be that the player isn't very good in the role.

Having said that, I've made my feelings clear previously that I think the basic settings for the tactics creator could be tweaked, or it could somehow be made clearer that you will obviously need to tweak settings to suit your players, opposition and situation.

A sweeper system is a recipe for defeat in modern football.

Who uses it? nobody does unless they know the are going to win the game at a canter. It is incredibly risky and unless your sweeper is superhuman it will be a disaster. Brazil v Andorra - yes! Any other game - No!

A number of Spanish and Italian teams do, as they also play with wingbacks, so have the SW there to roam around or to hold a position, depending on how the DCs should react to any exploitation of the flanks.

A number of Spanish and Italian teams do, as they also play with wingbacks, so have the SW there to roam around or to hold a position, depending on how the DCs should react to any exploitation of the flanks.

They use liberos. It's not the same.

They use liberos. It's not the same.

A libero is a type of sweeper, no? As I said, there are two kinds. One there to steady the ship, get the ball out of danger and cover for any balls through or mistakes by the DCs, and the other is there to roam around and fill into gaps left by players going forward.

A libero is a type of sweeper, no? As I said, there are two kinds. One there to steady the ship, get the ball out of danger and cover for any balls through or mistakes by the DCs, and the other is there to roam around and fill into gaps left by players going forward.

Yes, but that's not what you get in the game when you use a withdrawn sweeper. The sweeper position in the game is nothing like how a player would play in the leagues you mention.

The default settings in the tactics creator are there as a guide. Too many people are making the mistake of assuming that the creator actually makes a perfectly working tactic, rather than just making it simpler to have the ability to create one.

If your sweeper isn't working, adjust his individual settings (for example make his mentality much lower than your DCs, allow him to roam more or have more freedom, ensure you don't have an offside trap). Perhaps if, as you say you're not playing an offside trap, the SW either has too much freedom or too similar instructions to the DC. Mentality between the two should be rather different imo, and the SW should be able to roam around at the back, but have the sole duty of getting the ball out of danger. Or it could just be that the player isn't very good in the role.

Having said that, I've made my feelings clear previously that I think the basic settings for the tactics creator could be tweaked, or it could somehow be made clearer that you will obviously need to tweak settings to suit your players, opposition and situation.

The reason I opened this thread is this: If you put a sweeper on: pressing: 1/20, mentality: 1/20, forward runs: never, creative freedom: 1/20, and their GK kicks a long punt up the field, the sweeper will still attack the ball rather than step back. Sweeper play is just not coded into the game.

They use liberos. It's not the same.

haha typical FM player statement. For this purpose- dropping back behind the DC rather than rushing in front of him especially on long balls, it is exactly the same.

Yes, but that's not what you get in the game when you use a withdrawn sweeper. The sweeper position in the game is nothing like how a player would play in the leagues you mention.

As I said, it depends on how you set them up. Especially with only one DC, a sweeper will spend most of his time moving up to support the DC (marking players etc) unless instructed to do otherwise. The 1 DC 1 SW example the OP in trying to replicate is in reality more a case of 2 DC, albeit one as a cover with a more defensive mentality.

The reason I opened this thread is this: If you put a sweeper on: pressing: 1/20, mentality: 1/20, forward runs: never, creative freedom: 1/20, and their GK kicks a long punt up the field, the sweeper will still attack the ball rather than step back. Sweeper play is just not coded into the game.

As I said in my last post that will happen if you only have 1 DC, as they'll see the need to push up and mark players. A cover DC with a lower mentality is a more realistic example of how to play a 'sweeper' with 1 DC imo.

As I said, it depends on how you set them up. Especially with only one DC, a sweeper will spend most of his time moving up to support the DC (marking players etc) unless instructed to do otherwise. The 1 DC 1 SW example the OP in trying to replicate is in reality more a case of 2 DC, albeit one as a cover with a more defensive mentality.

Thanks again for a good reply Hershie. Unfortunately what you're saying is true for the most part, as we don't have the option to make the RB "tuck in" in the OP formation as he probably would in reality. However- the problems i'm talking about are more like the screen shot i've posted. Instead of instinctively dropping back on long balls he is rushing AHEAD of the DC and attacking the ball. Elementary error. And also from through balls he is rushing forward.

As I said in my last post that will happen if you only have 1 DC, as they'll see the need to push up and mark players. A cover DC with a lower mentality is a more realistic example of how to play a 'sweeper' with 1 DC imo.

Disagree- teams have played this formation at the back for decades, it is a case of the attention-span sapped, EPL watching 2010 football fan that doesn't see liverpool using it and think it is not possible and anathema. I played in this formation growing up, my problem with it is the simple lack of understanding of what the SW does as a footballer.

Thanks again for a good reply Hershie. Unfortunately what you're saying is true for the most part, as we don't have the option to make the RB "tuck in" in the OP formation as he probably would in reality. However- the problems i'm talking about are more like the screen shot i've posted. Instead of instinctively dropping back on long balls he is rushing AHEAD of the DC and attacking the ball. Elementary error. And also from through balls he is rushing forward.

Hmm. It does look like he's trying to be part of an offside trap in the screenshots. :confused:

It might well be an issue worth reporting. Perhaps see if a sweeper plays more like he should if you have 2 DCs ahead of him opposed to one? Maybe try dropping your defensive line too.

As I said, it depends on how you set them up. Especially with only one DC, a sweeper will spend most of his time moving up to support the DC (marking players etc) unless instructed to do otherwise. The 1 DC 1 SW example the OP in trying to replicate is in reality more a case of 2 DC, albeit one as a cover with a more defensive mentality.

I don't actually think there is much disagreement here. We all seem to be saying that the game doesn't handle it well regardless of how we define sweepers/liberos or whatever.

mmm unfortunately that is often a lot of the point of having a sweeper- so you can play a higher defensive line and press.

I can guarantee you that there is no offside trap set and that his mentality is set up with all effort of trying to make him stay back: like I said, the special play and defensive movement of a SW/DC combination/team are just not coded into the game.

it is a case of the attention-span sapped, EPL watching 2010 football fan that doesn't see liverpool using it and think it is not possible and anathema. I played in this formation growing up, my problem with it is the simple lack of understanding of what the SW does as a footballer.

Was that directed at me? :confused: I know full well that such formations have been used, but I'm simply suggesting a more accurate way of representing it in the game, from experience.

An alternative idea to try perhaps could be to raise the mentality of the DC so he's not right on top of the SW, and so that way the sweeper has room to move into and can more clearly see what his role is. Obviously lowering the defensive line would probably be required. It seems from the screenshot that you are playing quite a fairly high line considering the formation.

A sweeper system is a recipe for defeat in modern football.

Who uses it? nobody does unless they know the are going to win the game at a canter. It is incredibly risky and unless your sweeper is superhuman it will be a disaster. Brazil v Andorra - yes! Any other game - No!

You know nothing about football!

Greece won the European Cup with this system in 2004.

Was that directed at me? :confused: I know full well that such formations have been used, but I'm simply suggesting a more accurate way of representing it in the game, from experience.

An alternative idea to try perhaps could be to raise the mentality of the DC so he's not right on top of the SW, and so that way the sweeper has room to move into and can more clearly see what his role is. Obviously lowering the defensive line would probably be required. It seems from the screenshot that you are playing quite a fairly high line considering the formation.

Not at all, I appreciate your responses here. I will post more screenshots when i'm playing.

Not at all, I appreciate your responses here. I will post more screenshots when i'm playing.

I've just loaded up a game and tried to create a basic formation with 1 SW and 1 DC. I'll report back.

You know nothing about football!

Greece won the European Cup with this system in 2004.

No, they used a libero. They didn't use a withdrawn sweeper as represented in the game by using a defender in the sweeper postition.

being a "libero" is something that comes into play when you are ATTACKING. The guy pushes into the midfield and offers an option.

We are talking about defending. In fact, what we're saying is usually even more true for a libero as he is usually a shorter, more skillful player. So he will leave the big DC to deal with headers etc.

Was that directed at me? :confused: I know full well that such formations have been used, but I'm simply suggesting a more accurate way of representing it in the game, from experience.

An alternative idea to try perhaps could be to raise the mentality of the DC so he's not right on top of the SW, and so that way the sweeper has room to move into and can more clearly see what his role is. Obviously lowering the defensive line would probably be required. It seems from the screenshot that you are playing quite a fairly high line considering the formation.

I've just loaded up a game and tried to create a basic formation with 1 SW and 1 DC. I'll report back.

I suggest making at least one FB defensive. not a "full back" more of a right defender in the Bonera/Corluka mould.

being a "libero" is something that comes into play when you are ATTACKING. The guy pushes into the midfield and offers an option.

We are talking about defending. In fact, what we're saying is usually even more true for a libero as he is usually a shorter, more skillful player. So he will leave the big DC to deal with headers etc.

Not just attacking. The libero meaning 'free' defender can either go forward or stay withdrawn depending on his role or the circumstances.

The traditional sweeper role specifically calls for the defender to play deep and is much rarer. In fm, the libero would not be in the SW position by default although he might be playing as the last man because the other defenders can push up.

It's just about the position in in the game - would you put your full backs as deep in the game as the sweeper? of course not.

Okay. One match played - Reggina v Brescia.

There's certainly an issue with the positioning of DC/SW when only one DC is played, with both being central and ending up standing on top of each other when the team are on the attack.

When defending, I found the DC pushing up (probably due to me not having a DM) and the SW then having to fill in to his position and getting caught.

I don't think the positioning thing is that major, and mostly linked to the fact they're both regarded as dead-central players who have little/no role to play in attacking. When the team are defending, they seem to be exploited easily, but again perhaps due to the lack of a DM. Perhaps playing a DC to the right and a sweeper to the left, for example, might produce better results.

I had my DC as stopper which didn't work too well, and the SW as a sweeper with a few tweaks made to his mentally and closing down, and allowing him to roam. The DC got a 6.7 while the sweeper got a 7.3. We won 2-0.

I think closing down between the two needs to be fairly similar in hindsight, in order to be able to preserve their shape when defending. The issue with their initial positioning is something that should be flagged as a bug, but I think the idea of playing a DC and SW at either side could solve this largely, as after all the SW will move forward when the team are on the attack, so that the opposition can't simply keep someone inside your half - offside trap or not. Although obviously this could present new issues if not enough men are back.

Not just attacking. The libero meaning 'free' defender can either go forward or stay withdrawn depending on his role or the circumstances.

The traditional sweeper role specifically calls for the defender to play deep and is much rarer. In fm, the libero would not be in the SW position by default although he might be playing as the last man because the other defenders can push up.

It's just about the position in in the game - would you put your full backs as deep in the game as the sweeper? of course not.

Haha- ok now I have no idea what you're talking about. Making full backs as deep as a sweeper? This entire thread is about the fact that the sweeper doesn't play deeper that the rest of the defense at crucial/simple moments as he should.

Thank you for the definition of Libero:> I am Italian and played it as a junior. Let me assure you that when you don't have the ball playing this position especially in a back four does not involve charging in front of your defense to clear long headers or running forwards up the pitch when a through ball is hit. It involves defending as... as part of the defense, the only difference between a sweeper and a libero is that the libero is usually played with a RB or LB tucking in if he does go forward when you have the ball, and he will rarely go beyond DMC, after which he will drop behind the defense and start organising his markers again.

Okay. One match played - Reggina v Brescia.

There's certainly an issue with the positioning of DC/SW when only one DC is played, with both being central and ending up standing on top of each other when the team are on the attack.

When defending, I found the DC pushing up (probably due to me not having a DM) and the SW then having to fill in to his position and getting caught.

I don't think the positioning thing is that major, and mostly linked to the fact they're both regarded as dead-central players who have little/no role to play in attacking. When the team are defending, they seem to be exploited easily, but again perhaps due to the lack of a DM. Perhaps playing a DC to the right and a sweeper to the left, for example, might produce better results.

I had my DC as stopper which didn't work too well, and the SW as a sweeper with a few tweaks made to his mentally and closing down, and allowing him to roam. The DC got a 6.7 while the sweeper got a 7.3. We won 2-0.

I think closing down between the two needs to be fairly similar in hindsight, in order to be able to preserve their shape when defending. The issue with their initial positioning is something that should be flagged as a bug, but I think the idea of playing a DC and SW at either side could solve this largely, as after all the SW will move forward when the team are on the attack, so that the opposition can't simply keep someone inside your half - offside trap or not. Although obviously this could present new issues if not enough men are back.

Good post Hershie- thanks for your effort in trying to improve the game. SI are lucky to have people putting detailed analysis into it.

Yeah- the first picture you posted is what originally made me laugh/realise it hadn't been tested/configured. As for playing a left sweeper/RCB... hehe... SHUDDER! Obviously it would... go against everything holy and good.

ps. if you really want to see the fireworks go off, make one of the full backs "attacking"..

Good post Hershie- thanks for your effort in trying to improve the game.

Yeah- the first picture you posted is what originally made me laugh/realise it hadn't been tested/configured. As for playing a left sweeper/RCB... hehe... SHUDDER! Obviously it would... go against everything holy and good.

Have you logged this in the bugs forum then?

Haha- ok now I have no idea what you're talking about. Making full backs as deep as a sweeper? This entire thread is about the fact that the sweeper doesn't play deeper that the rest of the defense at crucial/simple moments as he should.

Thank you for the definition of Libero:> I am Italian and played it as a junior. Let me assure you that when you don't have the ball playing this position especially in a back four does not involve charging in front of your defense to clear long headers or running forwards up the pitch when a through ball is hit. It involves defending as... as part of the defense, the only difference between a sweeper and a libero is that the libero is usually played with a RB or LB tucking in if he does go forward when you have the ball.

Let me try to explain again.

My point is simple. If you play a defender in the Sweeper position in the game he is by default behind your full backs. Move him forward to the CB position but have him perform a similar role and that would be more like a libero tasked with playing deep. Of course the libero could also be tasked with an attacking role - i'm not arguing against that fact.

Not yet. Will take a look next week and try to produce a detailed log of faults with screenshots.

Good idea. The more detail the better.

Let me try to explain again.

My point is simple. If you play a defender in the Sweeper position in the game he is by default behind your full backs.

I disagree- he charges in front of the defense and allows the ball behind him very very often, and the line of the DC-SW is too vertical- it does not at all recognise that the DC is supposed to be man marking a striker and the picture posted by Hershie with them standing on top of each other is often produced. Take a look at it in the game- this is not defendable.

I disagree- he charges in front of the defense and allows the ball behind him very very often, and the line of the DC-SW is too vertical- it does not at all recognise that the DC is supposed to be man marking a striker and the picture posted by Hershie with them standing on top of each other is often produced. Take a look at it in the game- this is not defendable.

That's got nothing to do with what i'm saying. I'm talking about the default position (SW or CB) in the game. I'm not arguing what role he may or may not have - just how deep he is set to.

Ok. So your point is that a full back plays higher than a sweeper. Thank you.

What does this have to do with the bugs/lack of sweeper coding we're talking about?

moving on......

Playing with 2 DCs and a DM seems to make the sweeper role look much more like it should - from a brief test anyway. Pushing up to join the DCs when in the team are on the attack, and staying further back when defending.

Ok. So your point is that a full back plays higher than a sweeper. Thank you.

What does this have to do with the bugs/lack of sweeper coding we're talking about?

moving on......

That's not the point I was making, but since you clearly are unwilling to understand, I'll happily just give up and let you move on

I feel(from reading this thread) like people are getting very confused about what a SW role is supposed to be lol.

A Sweeper is supposed to sit behind the defence and sweep up any balls... roaming across the whole of the back line trying to tackle/intercept any balls that go through the line of defenders in front of him.

When the team is attacking yes it is likely he will move up alongside the other CB, but he generally won't go further then that...(he won't attack an oncoming player with the ball, the other CB would) He's like an anchorman of the defence and shouldn't be roaming far up the pitch at all, immediately dropping deeper then the rest of the defenders once the team loses the ball.

This is also played with a high defensive line(the RB,LB,& CB) as it allows the SW plenty of room to roam behind those players. So it kind of works in a way that it is high but also deep at the same time(as the 3 defenders are high and the SW is deep)

Also the 3 defenders should be tightly marking their players whilst the SW should not be tight marking and Zonal.

What happens if you play a SW with 3 CBs in front of him? Does that make it work better? Do the RCB and LCB move across the pitch when they need to, to the wings? I can't test this out as i'm not on a computer with FM.

Is this what your expecting the SW to do? because thats whats supposed to happen!

Just to add: you don't normally play 2 CBs and a SW so to say thats why it isn't working is wrong, unless you want to play a ridiculously defensive setup where the SW would probably be wasted anyway