Managing in FM requires way too much tactical tweaking in comparison to real life........

.......or does it?

I was reading 'what the managers said' on Yahoo sport

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/10022008/58/premier-league-managers-said.html

and when I read what Harry Redknapp had to say the various complaints (my own included) about how having to change tactics so much (for Human and AI managers) in an FM match was completely unrealistic immediately sprang to mind. Here's the quote from good ol' 'Arry:-

"I think we battered them - how did they get away with 1-0? I changed the way we played 14 times in the game because we couldn't get any balance and they were a handful. It was like the Bolton of old, very difficult to play against."

I know it's only one manager and Harry Redknapp may well have been exaggerating for effect, but it has definitely made me reconsider my opinion of how realistic the need for in match tweaking in the FM world is. It also made me consider how there might be numerous subtle changes occuring in any given match that aren't noticeable just from watching as a fan, whether in the stands or on TV.

For the people who, like myself, have moaned (on the forum or otherwise) about the ridiculousness of the AI constantly changing tactics and the need for the human manager to react in what sometimes feels like a convoluted game of rock, paper, scissors; do Harry Redknapp's words make you reconsider your position given that he is an actual football manager?

Any Pompey/Bolton fans reading this that saw the whole 90 minutes notice these 14 changes Redknapp mentions?

Maybe the problem with the AI changing in match tactics in FM is the lack of subtlety with respect to changing tactics, particularly formation, rather than the actual amount of AI tactical tweaking going on?

Of course it could just be Harry Redknapp's love of a good media soundbite and the 14 changes he mentions might only have been 4. In which case any discussion is irrelevant .

.......or does it?

I was reading 'what the managers said' on Yahoo sport

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/10022008/58/premier-league-managers-said.html

and when I read what Harry Redknapp had to say the various complaints (my own included) about how having to change tactics so much (for Human and AI managers) in an FM match was completely unrealistic immediately sprang to mind. Here's the quote from good ol' 'Arry:-

"I think we battered them - how did they get away with 1-0? I changed the way we played 14 times in the game because we couldn't get any balance and they were a handful. It was like the Bolton of old, very difficult to play against."

I know it's only one manager and Harry Redknapp may well have been exaggerating for effect, but it has definitely made me reconsider my opinion of how realistic the need for in match tweaking in the FM world is. It also made me consider how there might be numerous subtle changes occuring in any given match that aren't noticeable just from watching as a fan, whether in the stands or on TV.

For the people who, like myself, have moaned (on the forum or otherwise) about the ridiculousness of the AI constantly changing tactics and the need for the human manager to react in what sometimes feels like a convoluted game of rock, paper, scissors; do Harry Redknapp's words make you reconsider your position given that he is an actual football manager?

Any Pompey/Bolton fans reading this that saw the whole 90 minutes notice these 14 changes Redknapp mentions?

Maybe the problem with the AI changing in match tactics in FM is the lack of subtlety with respect to changing tactics, particularly formation, rather than the actual amount of AI tactical tweaking going on?

Of course it could just be Harry Redknapp's love of a good media soundbite and the 14 changes he mentions might only have been 4. In which case any discussion is irrelevant .

Good post, isuckatfm.

And I have said for a while that to be successful at this game and get around the shots-on-target "bug" you need to tweak tactics little and often throughout the game.

Rather ironically, I was playing against Bolton last night (as Leeds in 2012) and was having one of those games. I play in split screen so I can watch the match stats build and fall as well as the highlights. I was up to 25 shots, 15 on target, they were on 3 shots, 0 on target, and the game sat at 0-0 on 75 mins. I'd changed from fast normal passing to normal direct passing, which had increased my possession but kept shots-on-goal ratios climbing. I went to fast, direct to no avail, finally resorting to slow and short, and made my wingers LESS attacking (ensuring a more patient buildup) went 1-0 up on 86 mins, then resorted to my "shut-up-shop" 4-1-4-1 tactic and won the game 1-0.

I know a lot of gamers don't like this requirement, but I find that it gets me more involved in the game, makes me think about the different aspects of how I'm playing and what the players are capable of. Stancu might be rated 8 on 80mins, but I need to score. Is it my wingers, or my AMC, or is it simply not happening for Stancu? He's getting 10-20 chances but not putting them away. I look at the match stats, and if we're getting tons of crosses in, maybe I need a better header of the ball? Sub Stancu - in this example - for Rosenberg and we score. Or I could start playing through the middle with a second, faster striker beside him. Or push the wingers into stiker positions with the arrows.

Like I said, good post. All SI need to do is work out how to reduce the statistic of shots-on-goal and people might be happier. Folk don't mind losing but when the number go against them they get rather upset.

Whether or not Redknapp's comments are accurate for his situation, constantly having to make tweaks in FM is tedious and at most frustrating. It's hard enough setting up a stable tactic let alone then having to worry about constantly making changes.

Not that I'm advocating being able to have one tactic and sticking to it, more that if the expectation from now on is to constantly wrestle with the AI each match and a preference for watching full matches, then we need better analysis tools and statistics. Whether this is in ProZone-ish like form, more player concentric statistics and/or tactical assistance/comments from your coaching staff, something needs to be given to us to help balance out this.

At the end of the day this is a game and for it to remain enjoyable then FM needs to provide some features which provides better information to help tackle the expected complexity.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Folk don't mind losing but when the number go against them they get rather upset. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which I think alot of people would agree with. It's not about winning or losing, it's the frustration of not knowing why you lost when all basic statistics say otherwise.

just use standard 442 or 442 diamond without ANY player instructions. it'll work!

When I found my team doing uselessly I was constantly tweaking this and that was a hit or miss in terms of success. A few more defeats down the line, something clicked in my mind. Maybe, I thought my old 4-4-2 formation is not broken, but that the players are not playing in it consistently. In the previous season I had e won the league and in doing so played pretty much the same team throughout the season due to not having a massive squad. But, due to being in the Champions League I went a bit crazy in the transfer market. I did go on to qualify for the second round of the champions league, but found myself in 15th in the league.

From, this point I decided to freeze my squad selection, bar injuries and fitness, to see if my theory of consistent squad selection would work. I had nothing to lose really because I was already in bottom half of the league and expected to get into the UEFA cup. Anyway, to my surprise overall things improved considerably with 5 consecutive wins in the league. Despite this though I still got destroyed by Man Utd 4-1 and lost to Juventus 4-3 at Fratton Park. Yet overall I moved up the table from 15th to 6th.

So when things go pear shaped perhaps trying to change formation and the starting eleven is not in the best interest of your club.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zeuS0r:

just use standard 442 or 442 diamond without ANY player instructions. it'll work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if that's true then the game is totaly flawed...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:

For the people who, like myself, have moaned (on the forum or otherwise) about the ridiculousness of the AI constantly changing tactics and the need for the human manager to react in what sometimes feels like a convoluted game of rock, paper, scissors; do Harry Redknapp's words make you reconsider your position given that he is an actual football manager?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) You don't actually have to adjust your tactics at all. I never have, barring a mid-game injury crisis at one position.

2) And this is the crux of the matter, if we could change tactics in the way that real life managers can, with the extremely specific player instructions and, more importantly, a set of instructions of things not to do, then changing it 14 times wouldn't be a bother.

The problem is that

: I can't tell a player to play long balls from the back, but short balls when in the midfield.

: I can't tell him to stand in a certain place from set pieces or corners (yes I can say "on the post" etc, but I want to say, "on the opposite side of the box in case the ball goes past everyone").

: I can't tell players to go forward wibble, or stay back wobble.

: I can't talk to my substitutes at all before putting them on.

: If I do give players the best specific instructions I can (not very) then a sudden change in the course of the game means I have to go through each an every players instructions to change what I'm asking them to do. I can't just yell at the captain "Oi. Tell everyone to do this, that, the other".

Sooooo. Tactics in FM are to real-life what steam is to nuclear power.

VB

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

if that's true then the game is totaly flawed... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use a plain 442 Normal. The only instructions I give are to change my wingers to "wingers" and my CDs to "CDs".

I win everything everywhere with anyone and never touch them.

tactics is tweaked a lot, during every match IRE. it doesn't have to be whole new tactic. mostly it's only closing down, width and D-line due to leading/loosing. and so it's in FM. when AI decides to close the match, there's not much what you can do, but to put some pressure on them. how do you do it? by closing them down...

also player instructions need to be changed when things don't work like they should. sometimes it enough to just lower forward runs, sometimes you need to change allmost everything. there's no magic formula, just like there isn't IRE.

that's why one tactic suits them all, doesn't exists anymore in FM. and that's something that made this game better in my opinoum. and defenetly more realistic.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonBlade:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

if that's true then the game is totaly flawed... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use a plain 442 Normal. The only instructions I give are to change my wingers to "wingers" and my CDs to "CDs".

I win everything everywhere with anyone and never touch them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's very sad thing to hear.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonBlade:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:

For the people who, like myself, have moaned (on the forum or otherwise) about the ridiculousness of the AI constantly changing tactics and the need for the human manager to react in what sometimes feels like a convoluted game of rock, paper, scissors; do Harry Redknapp's words make you reconsider your position given that he is an actual football manager?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) You don't actually have to adjust your tactics at all. I never have, barring a mid-game injury crisis at one position.

2) And this is the crux of the matter, if we could change tactics in the way that real life managers can, with the extremely specific player instructions and, more importantly, a set of instructions of things not to do, then changing it 14 times wouldn't be a bother.

The problem is that

: I can't tell a player to play long balls from the back, but short balls when in the midfield.

: I can't tell him to stand in a certain place from set pieces or corners (yes I can say "on the post" etc, but I want to say, "on the opposite side of the box in case the ball goes past everyone").

: I can't tell players to go forward wibble, or stay back wobble.

: I can't talk to my substitutes at all before putting them on.

: If I do give players the best specific instructions I can (not very) then a sudden change in the course of the game means I have to go through each an every players instructions to change what I'm asking them to do. I can't just yell at the captain "Oi. Tell everyone to do this, that, the other".

Sooooo. Tactics in FM are to real-life what steam is to nuclear power.

VB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...but agree with that.

The thing is tweaking in FM and tweaking irl are totally different.

For starters most of Harrys tactical work will be done in training, where certain tactical ideas will be drilled and conveyed very easily to the players.

FM just doesnt let us use the simple language managers use - why somethings like overlapping arent available through a simple tickbox is testament to how abstract tactics are in FM.

I hoped for changes this year after a couple of years of people being unhappy with the tactical side- now I expect it in FM09. SI cannot continue improving the AIs tactical intelligence and not giving us more powerful and intuitive tools to counter the AI with than what we currently have.

Further to my last post- SI need to realise that although FM is a simulation it is a game first and foremost and something to enjoy.

Therefore on no level should putting across tactical ideas actually be more difficult or frustrating than it is in real life.

Sometimes from posts from the team I feel SI are just too close to the game to see its quite obvious flaws- they need to take a step back and see it from the angle of those who dont know the game mechanics inside out.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VonBlade:

The problem is that

: I can't tell a player to play long balls from the back, but short balls when in the midfield.

: I can't tell him to stand in a certain place from set pieces or corners (yes I can say "on the post" etc, but I want to say, "on the opposite side of the box in case the ball goes past everyone").

: I can't tell players to go forward wibble, or stay back wobble.

: I can't talk to my substitutes at all before putting them on.

: If I do give players the best specific instructions I can (not very) then a sudden change in the course of the game means I have to go through each an every players instructions to change what I'm asking them to do. I can't just yell at the captain "Oi. Tell everyone to do this, that, the other".

Sooooo. Tactics in FM are to real-life what steam is to nuclear power.

VB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) You cam.. each player have individual passing slider .. You have to do each individually tho

2) Is that what stand on far post mean?

3) Agree.. Now we need sliders for positioning to .. >.> Actually, yes I agree, I still looking for a way to replicate Arsenal attacking positional with the current engine.

4) You can, you can edit his individual instruction before confirming the tactic change.

5) Unfortunately, again, its down to specific individual tactical tweaking.. Its troublesome, but there's no other way besides that

I've used the same tactic with norwich without tweaking at all for 3 seaons in a row:

Season 1 - Promotion

Season 2 - 7th in prem

Season 3 - Won the prem

I play a network game with ym flat mate and also gave him this tactic...but his team lacks moral and still can't win....

I put his team on the default 4-4-2 and set about sorting ut there moral with tutoring, media praise and disaplin.....hasnt lost a game since.

i put it too you that you should worry less about tactics and far more about teamtalks, disaplin, and moral.

I have used a similar tactic over the past 4 season of FM but I do agree that there are little tweaks here and there and this does look similar to real life. I think it's fair enough

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Minimal_Fuss:

i put it too you that you should worry less about tactics and far more about teamtalks, disaplin, and moral. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely agree. I've used exactly the same tactic for 13 seasons with Gateshead. The only tweaking I ever do mid-game is to switch between to my away version of the same tactic or vice versa.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Minimal_Fuss:

i put it too you that you should worry less about tactics and far more about teamtalks, disaplin, and moral. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely agree. I've used exactly the same tactic for 13 seasons with Gateshead. The only tweaking I ever do mid-game is to switch between to my away version of the same tactic or vice versa. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to add, in that time I've taken the team from the BSN to the Premiership and this season I'm confident they can break into the top 7 of the prem.

I thought I'd add that bit as mine would have been a pointless example if I'd constantly stuck with the same tactic but stayed in the BSN for 13 years

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

Further to my last post- SI need to realise that although FM is a simulation it is a game first and foremost and something to enjoy.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make this sentence a sticky so SI can see it every minute.

The difference between Harry Redknapp and the fm player is that he tweaks more easily than you can in a computergame, that he manages as a job and has seas of time to do it. You can only go so far with realism and there needs to be a balance between realism and fun in the game. Some things may be realistic, yet are frustrating in-game. Like the media questions. The game just isn't far enough to make them a good addition, always the same repetitive answers and consequences.

Rather SI should decide, ok this is fun in real life, but in game this isn't really the greatest thing! Let us tune this and minimize this frustrating aspect as long as it is so basic.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Minimal_Fuss:

i put it too you that you should worry less about tactics and far more about teamtalks, disaplin, and moral. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely agree. I've used exactly the same tactic for 13 seasons with Gateshead. The only tweaking I ever do mid-game is to switch between to my away version of the same tactic or vice versa. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it's completely insane that such a fake feature like team talk can have so big influence on player's sucsess. just use the right team talk and your tactics don't metter. you can use those defoult tactics (which are ridicoulus in my opinoum) as long as you pick right team talk, which is easy, all you have to do is look at Diaby's or Wolfsong's thread.

I just hope that's not true....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zeuS0r:

just use standard 442 or 442 diamond without ANY player instructions. it'll work! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

if that's true then the game is totaly flawed... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i also dont find the need to change tactics, though not quite to the same extreme. normally i create a tactic, tweak it for 3-4 games and the stick with it without alteration for an entire season. i may make make minor adjustments based on players ability -eg if i have to pick a player with low dribbling skills i will remove run with ball.

i have had an undefeated season with west ham, where i also won the league, fa and champions cup, using this 1 tactic -no adjustment approach.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Minimal_Fuss:

i put it too you that you should worry less about tactics and far more about teamtalks, disaplin, and moral. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely agree. I've used exactly the same tactic for 13 seasons with Gateshead. The only tweaking I ever do mid-game is to switch between to my away version of the same tactic or vice versa. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it's completely insane that such a fake feature like team talk can have so big influence on player's sucsess. just use the right team talk and your tactics don't metter. you can use those defoult tactics (which are ridicoulus in my opinoum) as long as you pick right team talk, which is easy, all you have to do is look at Diaby's or Wolfsong's thread.

I just hope that's not true.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I personally don't think that team talks and moral are all you need. I might have used the same tactic for a long time now but it did take me nearly 2 seasons to get it working. Now that I have I'm just making the point that I don't have to keep tweaking to have success if I don't want to.

But at the same time moral is very important. However, good moral will not make a poor tactic excellent in the same way that poor moral will not make an excellent tactic completely useless. It is however very important to keep the team moral high if you're to have any hope of keeping a good run of form.

Im not sure anyone on the forum will be able to answer the question fully, as we are not real football managers. Even though FM makes you think you are

I have noticed though that in real life, managers have t change their tactics to play against better teams.

Take Man City at the weekend, they seemed to play 4-5-1. It might have been 5-4-1. But my point is that Sven changed his tactic to beat Man Utd and ti seemed to work.

i should add, i think squad management is one of the most important aspects. keep players happy, play in-form players, and carefully rotate the squad (change only a few players each game), that stops your players suffering from fatigue as the season progresses.

i find intelligent use of substitutions to be a more effective way to alter a game than tactical adjustments.

in every match IRE there are plenty of tweaking. it doesn't have to be complete change of style a team is playing. closing down, d line, width these are all instruments that need to be changed during a match in every level of football. especially closing down. if you need to score you'll also need to press and push a litle bit forward. it can depend on team quality and ambition in that match. that's basics or even less then that.

other problem is that if FM can't reflect that in it's match engine. even though I think thing go better. so all this posts like "I have 1 tactic and I don't tweak" are serious threat to this game's reallity.

i find pushing up, increasing the pace of the game and paying more attacking football tend to have a negative effect on your chances of scoring. the team just seems to panic more and make more mistakes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

i find pushing up, increasing the pace of the game and paying more attacking football tend to have a negative effect on your chances of scoring. the team just seems to panic more and make more mistakes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

??? another example of how flawed match engine realy is

For me the crux of this issue isnt that teamtalks,morale or tactics are too important, its that player ability seems to be the lesss important than those three.

Also to add to the trinity- choice of captain can have a massive effect too, so much in fact that I find that if my captain is having a stinker then we will lose fullstop, unless I take him off or teamtalk him into improving.

Ive also had poor runs of form coincide with my regular captain being out and my vice not being up to it, choose a new captain and my form picks up.

All of these things should be important but so much that player ability is less so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

i find pushing up, increasing the pace of the game and paying more attacking football tend to have a negative effect on your chances of scoring. the team just seems to panic more and make more mistakes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

isn't that a style (fast, attacking...) of most sucsesfull teams IRE, arsenal, man u, real....?!

lol

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

i find pushing up, increasing the pace of the game and paying more attacking football tend to have a negative effect on your chances of scoring. the team just seems to panic more and make more mistakes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

isn't that a style (fast, attacking...) of most sucsesfull teams IRE, arsenal, man u, real....?!

lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes but i am just saying what happens in the game. i find a slower tempo leads, highish time wasting leads to beter use of the ball and more chances taken.

i have thrashed chelsea 6:0 at stamford bridge, using my approach.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

For me the crux of this issue isnt that teamtalks,morale or tactics are too important, its that player ability seems to be the lesss important than those three.

Also to add to the trinity- choice of captain can have a massive effect too, so much in fact that I find that if my captain is having a stinker then we will lose fullstop, unless I take him off or teamtalk him into improving.

Ive also had poor runs of form coincide with my regular captain being out and my vice not being up to it, choose a new captain and my form picks up.

All of these things should be important but so much that player ability is less so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agreed captain is very important. often when i am doing suprisingly badly in a match i realise that neither the captain or vice captain are on in the squad, and the team is being lead by some hopeless fool with terrible leadership.

yeah I read, people saying slow tempo not too attacking mentality works better then fast/direct. but that's the problem. it's just like on 8.0 when clsoing down didn't work, isn't it. especialy if you take into account that whole PL plays fast and att football...

can I ask what does slower tempo meen to you. 2,4, 6 notches?

i will have to check my tactics and get back to you. it has ben a while since i played, due to all the bugs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

so all this posts like "I have 1 tactic and I don't tweak" are serious threat to this game's reallity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree here. I don't tweak and have had reasonable success. If I'd perfected the tweaking then I'd probably have been more successful. We should not have a situation where I should be unable to play the way I want to, i.e anyone who does not tweak their tactic from game to game cannot have any form of success. There have always been teams who play by imposing their style on other teams. Man Utd is a good example at the moment, Liverpool in the early 80's or any Brazil national team are also good examples of this. These teams imo play a certain way because they have the players with the ability to do so. They will very rarely start a game any differently than they always do and any changes to they way they play during the game will be mainly down to changes made by the opposition; if the opposition play more defensive then these teams will inevitable find themselves attacking more and vice versa.

I see no problem in people being able to attempt to emulate this approach. Constant tactical changes are used by some real life teams, and some FM managers and some real life teams play pro-active rather than reactive and try to force their style of play on the game, and so do some FM managers.

I think there's room for both in the game and imo neither come easily and both take some time to perfect.

as allways you find a perfect explaination for everything

I wrote that teams don't change their entire style of playing. that's not tweaking, that's crazyness.

one more example-closing down.

there are managers that love to press all the time, others want their team to sitt deep before attack, that's all true. but in the match, when you go goal behind, you'll have to do something at some point. some managers will react imediatlly, others a little bit lately. but what will they do? once opponents start time wasting and passing back to defenders, holding on the ball. I don't think any manager will react by starting closing them down early on their half. as that is the only thing team can do...well they can watch how other team plays pig in the middle with their only striker and that's the kind of twaking I'm talking about.

and I still stand to that point.

aaah, not a good post but I hope you get my point.

i've never really changed my tactics either.

the only thing i've done is if i'm getting battered then i'll drop a CM into the DM role or if i feel i'll get more joy down the wings i'll perhaps move from a 442 to a 433 with two wide attackers and one striker.

the smaller tactical changes of passing etc dont get changed and i'm doing well

Think as well Martin O'Neill was on about how many tweaks he had made when Villa played...someone or other. Might even have been Bolton, actually. It was a game they eventually won, at any rate.

But 'changing the way we play' doesn't necessarily mean going from 4-4-2 to another formation, then another, and another. From what I have seen IRL, most sides have the 'main' formation and one or two 'fall-back' formations, which are practised on the training ground so players know what they are about.

The changes Harry and Martin were on about would have been largely unnoticed by anyone watching - which is where FM falls down because it assumes a level of tactical knowledge that most players either won't have, or can't be bothered with using.

IMO, FM doesn't rely on any one thing, but is an amalgam of several factors. Obvious, yes. But also apparently ignored. Is it tactics that are key, or team talks? Is it discipline, or stats and PPMs?

Fact is, it is all of them. Stats don't work as well as they should, as I've said elsewhere today. But everything more or less comes together.

I've seen people here say their side still doesn't close down like it should, as though it is a blanket meaning their guys will always get touch-tight. This ignores stats like marking, work rate, etc, player personality and PPMs, other instructions such as creative freedom, squad discipline (which will be about more than just fines for dismissals and the like, such as listening to the boss), and also confidence - a player with low morale or in bad form will be more hesitant to press, for fear of getting turned inside out or making a mistake that leads to a goal. Of course his uncertainty may well lead to the goal, but let's face it, we've all seen these things happen IRL far more frequently than we care to admit.

So, yeah, the game has its flaws, a lot of them well-known, but when people use the catch-all 'it's your tactics', they are partly right and partly wrong: it could be a tactical instruction, but you have to look at all the other aspects.

Thats the problem I have. When I'm playing on a park... tactics are so easy to convey. The problem I find is that, I have loads of tactics for real life, but I then have to sit down and basically translate them into FM. Which is a bit like translated Chinese into English. It doesnt really work probably. You lose meaning.

Point raised by George. Yeaer on Year the AI has become tactically more and more astute, and yet we have very few additional tactic making options.

I find it very difficult to manage to get my team on screen to play the way i want. The options just arent there, or dont work effectively. The swaping of player positions is probably my main annoyance.... if you look at the way Uniteds front four of Ronaldo, Giggs, Tevez and Rooney, when they all play the way they just all pop up in any of the 4 positions they play in. You just cant replicate that with the playing switch option. The only way is to go only tactics and actually drag the players there.

Which doesnt really have the same effect.

Another example is this. I often when playing non-top flight find myself with a really, really, really good AMCs. Now, what I always want to do then is have my strikers playing basically right on the centre backs, pulling them out a bit wide to create some space for my AMC.

But the problem is... I've still not worked out how I do that.

This is what I think is the biggest problem with the game. All the bugs people are complaining about.... alot of them are really minor things that would go totally unnoticed... except that because the AI is much better.... and the tactics menu is so hard to understand, that the majority of people are just finding it impossible to win consistantly.

And whilst hardcore people will say its not all about winning etc, the majority of people that play a game, and this is a game, simulation tag or not, want to win. You'd get annoyed if you couldn't complete an RPG. Or if you couldnt finish the last level on a shooter.

Same thing applies here. Losing a game here and there is expected, but its when you lose, and lose, and lose, and nothing you seem to do it working. Thats when you get annoyed. Especially when your changing your play to a different style.. only to find out the team actually translates that style as something totally different to the way you expected it to be.