FM2010 No More Tackling?

I have just spent half a hour trying to eloquently post about the lack of tackling and defending in FM10, but thanks to some "504 Gateway" not being found the post was lost.

I wont go into detail again, but will point out my biggest issues.

You can quite literally starting wth your GK pass your way all the way up to your striker and score without the opposition ever being in a position to make a tackle. It looks more like Basketball with a missed shot being practically the only time the opposition get the ball back. This is not what is meant by the old adage "end to end football".

Defending it seems is a lost art, just check the difference between tackling stats in FM09 and FM10, defenders now rarely make a tackle and their anticipation and positioning skills seem to have also been completely lost?

Fullbacks are practically pointless and to further prove that there are massive issues defensively, strikers are scoring around a goal a game, if not more?

I have always found a way to play FM in the past that has at least allowed me a way of playing in which i could avoid many of the issues and parts of the game i deemed pointless, but this defending issue is not something that can be ignored, especially as the game is now more focused on the match itself with changes and tweaks having to be made so regularly.

I could not possibly consider purchasing FM10 in its current condition.

Are any of these issues being worked on for a patch or do SI believe that the defending in the game is up to scratch?

It's not lost.

I read it five minutes ago:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=157888

Yes I agree that the analysis tool give too less interceptions, tackles and missed passes.

It seems, that there is no more fight for the ball, maybe we have to put this in the "Bug sections".

Thanks.

It's not lost.

I read it five minutes ago:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=157888

Sorry mate, i got the "error" message then looked for it in the Forum but could not find it???

i have to say i agree with you Hammer1000. I'm using the tactics wizard and yet i'm constantly getting messages from my assistant saying that our tackling has been terrible. And when i check the stats, i'd be lucky if any player has even attempted more than 3-4 tackles in a whole game. They don't like to tackle it seems, but boy do players LOVE deflecting next to every shot out for a corner! This is ridiculously unrealistic and i really hope it is fixed in a patch.

Maybe it could be discussed here in the GD Forum and the other post i made about the same topic could be moved to the bugs forum?

Yes, but for fixing with a patch someone has to tell this bug in the official bug section with a pkm upload.

i have to say i agree with you Hammer1000. I'm using the tactics wizard and yet i'm constantly getting messages from my assistant saying that our tackling has been terrible. And when i check the stats, i'd be lucky if any player has even attempted more than 3-4 tackles in a whole game. They don't like to tackle it seems, but boy do players LOVE deflecting next to every shot out for a corner! This is ridiculously unrealistic and i really hope it is fixed in a patch.

Hammer1000, you have to upload the pkm and send it to SI ( bug section )...

Hammer1000, you have to upload the pkm and send it to SI ( bug section )...

I have about 300 games i could upload, you could basically upload ANY game played on the Demo such is the issue, i blame myself in part for this not being immediately picked up in testing, because i was given the opportunity to Beta Test and turned it down.

i have to say i agree with you Hammer1000. I'm using the tactics wizard and yet i'm constantly getting messages from my assistant saying that our tackling has been terrible. And when i check the stats, i'd be lucky if any player has even attempted more than 3-4 tackles in a whole game. They don't like to tackle it seems, but boy do players LOVE deflecting next to every shot out for a corner! This is ridiculously unrealistic and i really hope it is fixed in a patch.

Yes, I agree with you here! This should be fixed in the next patch! I think that this thread should be in the bugs forum.

Totally right,

Hammer1000, could you post it with the pkm ?

Maybe you could jsut psot a picure of your analys tools ( 3 or 4 will be enough )

We have to prove it soon !!!!!

Thanks

Yes, I agree with you here! This should be fixed in the next patch! I think that this thread should be in the bugs forum.

The bugs for me comes because of less player movement to catch the ball.

The reaction of the player around the ball should increase alot.

Totally right,

Hammer1000, could you post it with the pkm ?

Maybe you could jsut psot a picure of your analys tools ( 3 or 4 will be enough )

We have to prove it soon !!!!!

Thanks

If a Moderator could move the other thread i made about the same topic(i did'nt think it had posted) into the relevant place in th bugs forum, i could then add something in there!

I'd like one of the treads to remain open here if possible, as we can find out just how many people have noticed and/or found it be an issue and if it is sorted in a patch we can talk about how it has improved the game etc.

I'm actually off out for a couple of hours, but will upload anything required on my return.

Actually the very last game i played away to Man Utd(as Arsenal) would be just perfect, we won 1-0 in a tight contest, Utd made a lot of tackles in an end to end game, whilst Arsenal's defenders made just 3 between the four of them, the two Arsenal strikers made 4 each???

Make just a copy/paste of your main thread and add your examples in the match engine bugs forum, you have to do it quickly a s the game is releasing on Friday !!!

If a Moderator could move the other thread i made about the same topic(i did'nt think it had posted) into the relevant place in th bugs forum, i could then add something in there!

I'd like one of the treads to remain open here if possible, as we can find out just how many people have noticed and/or found it be an issue and if it is sorted in a patch we can talk about how it has improved the game etc.

I'm actually off out for a couple of hours, but will upload anything required on my return.

Actually the very last game i played away to Man Utd(as Arsenal) would be just perfect, we won 1-0 in a tight contest, Utd made a lot of tackles in an end to end game, whilst Arsenal's defenders made just 3 between the four of them, the two Arsenal strikers made 4 each???

I don't share that wiew, I found last year's tackling percantage, all the time close to 100 ridicoulus. when you watch full game you can see defenders doing their job, maybe it's just not counted into tackles/interceptions. defensivly 10 is better.

these are issues that I think need looking at:

- strikers having too many shots and oportunities

- too many clearences, when player could easily played it out of trouble

- first touch, when players push the ball a little too long, happens too often

- ball deflecting off players to corner. totally unrealistic, happens far too often. looks like elephant is marking player who's putting the cross in

- offsides, various problems here. players passing into offside positioned player when it's too obvious they're offside, is particulary anoying

- shooting, players being able to shoot from long range with their bodies in strange position. players shooting from long range souronded with two or more players when passing/holding up the ball would be much more realisti option

- player off the movement and positioning looks too robotic and predictable in general.

- would like to see more congestion and fighting in the middle of the pitch

- pace seems like it's been tuned down slightly too much. maybe

- wingers off the ball movement is particulary awful. just standing and watching, they would need to come deeper for the ball and get more involved in the middle of the pitch. especially when instructed like that (roam, cut in, support duty..)

having said all that I find ME much better than last year's.

Do you have the opportunity to post it in the match engine bug forum with visual examples ?

I don't share that wiew, I found last year's tackling percantage, all the time close to 100 ridicoulus. defensivly 10 is better.

these are issues that I think need looking at:

- strikers having too many shots and oportunities

- too many clearences, when player could easily played it out of trouble

- first touch, when players push the ball a little too long, happens too often

- ball deflecting off players to corner. totally unrealistic, happens far too often. looks like elephant is marking player who's putting the cross in

- offsides, various problems here. players passing into offside positioned player when it's too obvious they're offside, is particulary anoying

- shooting, players being able to shoot from long range with their bodies in strange position. players shooting from long range souronded with two or more players when passing/holding up the ball would be much more realisti option

- player off the movement and positioning looks too robotic and predictable in general.

- would like to see more congestion and fighting in the middle of the pitch

- wingers off the ball movement is particulary awful. just standing and watching, they would need to come deeper for the ball and get more involved in the middle of the pitch. especially when instructed like that (roam, cut in, support duty..)

having said all that I find ME much better than last year's.

Do you have the opportunity to post it in the match engine bug forum with visual examples ?

I'm sure they are aware of these issues, since hundreds of people were testing the game..

ok ive finished the match ect this will be a good example of the bug ..so do i save the match and go on my FM10 folder and send them the fail as a attachment ? with a presentation?

The detail is explained by SI in the 3d/engine match bug forum how to upload.

ok ive finished the match ect this will be a good example of the bug ..so do i save the match and go on my FM10 folder and send them the fail as a attachment ? with a presentation?

PKM

Match engine PKMs should be added to the ftp server in the fm/game-pkm folder

Match engine bugs we need pkm files, click Save at the end of a match and can be found in My Documents\Sports interactive\Football Manager 2010\matches. Pkms don't need zipping.

ok ive finished the match ect this will be a good example of the bug ..so do i save the match and go on my FM10 folder and send them the fail as a attachment ? with a presentation?

does tackle lost mean ... the player when the player tried to tackle it didn't work ?

or the player got tackled that i highlighted ?

Your first one is the right.

does tackle lost mean ... the player when the player tried to tackle it didn't work ?

or the player got tackled that i highlighted ?

The last game i just watched in extended highlights, i saw 2 tackles both resulting in free kicks.

There was loads of play in and around the box, but absolutely no tackles, i checked the stats at the end of the game and my back four had made a grand total of 1 tackle/s in the whole game.

I need to ask two things

1. How do you save a game(PKM) i cnnot seem to find the option in the Demo?

2. Whereabouts in the Bugs Forum does this belong?

I've moved the other thread to the bugs forum.

I could not possibly consider purchasing FM10 in its current condition.

I bet you WILL

Haven't noticed this issue myself but I only watch in 2D classic, and I'm not really one for getting bothered by things like this because (as I continue to say) the results I'm getting are realistic enough for me. I suppose, too, I could be so wrapped up in the rest of the game - the match itself has never been the most important part as far as I'm concerned.

That probably sounds odd, but I think you know what I mean (I don't study the match engine).

I bet you WILL

Haven't noticed this issue myself but I only watch in 2D classic, and I'm not really one for getting bothered by things like this because (as I continue to say) the results I'm getting are realistic enough for me. I suppose, too, I could be so wrapped up in the rest of the game - the match itself has never been the most important part as far as I'm concerned.

That probably sounds odd, but I think you know what I mean (I don't study the match engine).

I aint missed one yet so i would not bet against it, but the problem this time is that it has become quite necessary to watch the games in more detail and with the whole tackling issue i just cannot do it.

I think it looks just as bad if not worse in 2D because all you see is attacking dots running straight through defensive dots as if the defensive dots are a parting tide.

Cheers NEJI

2D is crap for detail lol, but 3D is getting worse and worse i really dont know what to watch in

PKM

Match engine PKMs should be added to the ftp server in the fm/game-pkm folder

Match engine bugs we need pkm files, click Save at the end of a match and can be found in My Documents\Sports interactive\Football Manager 2010\matches. Pkms don't need zipping.

The last game i just watched in extended highlights, i saw 2 tackles both resulting in free kicks.

There was loads of play in and around the box, but absolutely no tackles, i checked the stats at the end of the game and my back four had made a grand total of 1 tackle/s in the whole game.

I need to ask two things

1. How do you save a game(PKM) i cnnot seem to find the option in the Demo?

2. Whereabouts in the Bugs Forum does this belong?

i hope S.I Fixes this bug!!!!

Glenn of SI should reply for this bug ( in the bug forum ) !!!

i hope S.I Fixes this bug!!!!

I haven't played the FM10 demo, but surely the defending couldn't possibly be worse than in FM09!

There's been a change in how the ME recognises tackles. All 50-50 fight balls are now considered tackles, meaning the successful percentages are going to be much lower as a large number of tackle situations have to have one player losing the tackle. It doesn't necessarily mean the type of tackles in previous MEs are any lower, as these were based on a tackler challenging a man in full control of the ball.

There's been a change in how the ME recognises tackles. All 50-50 fight balls are now considered tackles, meaning the successful percentages are going to be much lower as a large number of tackle situations have to have one player losing the tackle. It doesn't necessarily mean the type of tackles in previous MEs are any lower, as these were based on a tackler challenging a man in full control of the ball.

Nobody is talking about percentages Rich, we are talking about the actual amount of tackles being made which is sparse bordering on non existent, defenders rarely if ever put in a tackle.

This is such a blatant issue, i have even taken to watching games in there entirety just to be 100% sure that this is the case and it is and there are absolutely NO excuses you can make that will undo the FACT.

Do you really believe that someone like Vidic, Upson, Toure, Ferdinand, etc, etc will only make around 12 actual tackles in half a season in the EPL? please somebody tell me i'm hallucinating.

Thats like telling me that Drogba or Rooney average around 30 shots each a game, has anybody that has been testing FM10 actually bothered to watch any matches?

In my recent Arsenal save my back four plus my DM are averaging one tackle each every two games, are you really telling me that that is a realistic amount???

Hammer1000 is completely right and this is what i consider to me a major bug in the game, it's pretty much "broken" until this is fixed.

Are these your tackling numbers or every team's tackling numbers, Garry? I'm unable to check myself as my Mac is being repaired.

SI should change closing down to have it based on radius (around a player), instead of pitch length.

High closing down = players closing down within a large radius around them (their defensive position).

Low closing down = players not bothering unless the ball is only within 5 metres radius (of their defensive position).

The current method is useless.

Real world stats would suggest that, bar the odd freak, the best tacklers average slightly under 4 tackles per game. What stats do you have in the FM demo?

wwfan they said 1 tackle a game.

wwfan they said 1 tackle a game.

Across all positions or just for defenders?

In my recent Arsenal save my back four plus my DM are averaging one tackle each every two games, are you really telling me that that is a realistic amount???

actually its even less. the back 5 are averaging 0.5 (half a tackle) tackles a game each.

so the holding player will make 1 tackle over 2 matches.

Real world stats would suggest that, bar the odd freak, the best tacklers average slightly under 4 tackles per game. What stats do you have in the FML demo?

I almost pre empted your previous question(or probably have done in another thread) but looking back through completed runs of the Demo(not MY team) of...

Terry 23 tackles in 28 games

Carvalho 11 tackles in 26 games

Toure 18 in 21

Seriously mate i could go on but there i have not come across a single player(mine or otherwise) who has averaged more than 2 tackles a game and in some instances one game alone has accounted for about 40% of a players overall tackles.

Personally i would suggest that the poorer the team(the more time they spend defending) the more tackles they make) as this is based on tackles made and not tackles won and if that be the case, i'm seeing teams who are defending practically all game long and still averaging less than one attempted tackle per game?

I don't share that wiew, I found last year's tackling percantage, all the time close to 100 ridicoulus. when you watch full game you can see defenders doing their job, maybe it's just not counted into tackles/interceptions. defensivly 10 is better.

There's been a change in how the ME recognises tackles. All 50-50 fight balls are now considered tackles, meaning the successful percentages are going to be much lower as a large number of tackle situations have to have one player losing the tackle. It doesn't necessarily mean the type of tackles in previous MEs are any lower, as these were based on a tackler challenging a man in full control of the ball.

To add to these two points part of the issue here is what the match engine considers a tackle and what you consider a tackle, and that the ‘subtleties’ of dribbling just aren’t there yet. So when attacking player is dribbling with the ball and he knocks it in front of himself, even by a small amount as in the example below, and the defending player nips in to steal it, this event does not get recorded as a tackle.

Here’s the example. Rodallega is running with the ball as you can see from the commentary, and Davies nips in to steal it. Note the third screenshot shows Davies with zero tackles at the end of the match.

If you saw the real life equivalent of this, accepting the fact that dribbling in FM is sometimes a little too loose so the dispossession doesn’t feel quite right in terms of body to body contact, you would call it a tackle, no?

Well i doubt the definition of a tackle has changed from the transition to FM10 from 09, where the average tackles per game were more or less correct... how do you explain a defender going from an average of 4.00 in 09 to 0.5 in FM10?

I'm absolutely not trying to be an ass here, but this is just the kind of thing that made me decide NOT to Beta Test.

Like i think i said earlier, this to me is as blatant as the likes of Rooney and/or Drogba having 30 shots a game each, or something just as similar, i would have spotted this almost immediately, but i did fear it may well have been dismissed.

I can only suggest that more people check through the tackling stats of not just their own, but other teams in whichever league they are playing in, as this issue is not difficult to notice.

Well i doubt the definition of a tackle has changed from the transition to FM10 from 09, where the average tackles per game were more or less correct... how do you explain a defender going from an average of 4.00 in 09 to 0.5 in FM10?

It has. The difference between FM and Opta/Sky's definitions of tackles is something that has been discussed at some length. isuckatfm's screenshot is a prime example.

I'm absolutely not trying to be an ass here, but this is just the kind of thing that made me decide NOT to Beta Test.

Like i think i said earlier, this to me is as blatant as the likes of Rooney and/or Drogba having 30 shots a game each, or something just as similar, i would have spotted this almost immediately, but i did fear it may well have been dismissed.

I can only suggest that more people check through the tackling stats of not just their own, but other teams in whichever league they are playing in, as this issue is not difficult to notice.

Had you decided to be involved, you'd have known this was something discussed and decided upon rather than something everybody had missed. We recognise the figures don't match up with OPTA/Sky, but we believe that is because the definitions are different, rather than something being horribly amiss in the ME.

To add to these two points part of the issue here is what the match engine considers a tackle and what you consider a tackle, and that the ‘subtleties’ of dribbling just aren’t there yet. So when attacking player is dribbling with the ball and he knocks it in front of himself, even by a small amount as in the example below, and the defending player nips in to steal it, this event does not get recorded as a tackle.

Here’s the example. Rodallega is running with the ball as you can see from the commentary, and Davies nips in to steal it. Note the third screenshot shows Davies with zero tackles at the end of the match.

If you saw the real life equivalent of this, accepting the fact that dribbling in FM is sometimes a little too loose so the dispossession doesn’t feel quite right in terms of body to body contact, you would call it a tackle, no?

Hmnnnnn, dont suppose you noticed that not one of your three DC's made a single tackle between them in the entire match???

ive also noticed that my midfielder are tackling more then my defenders which even makes the defenders look more stupid . when the attacker is passed the halfway line its a 90% chance that the play that the team does will succeed and have a shot on target or off target.

more of defenders' 'steals/interceptions' should be counted as tackles and then everyone would be happy..