Match too organized - seems a bit artificial to me

I think the match needs to improve in chaos & movement, so i'd like to criticise these aspects:

- Not enough fighting for positions in corners, free kicks and walls.

- Not enough fighting for positions for the ball in midfield.

- Moves & passes are way too clean.

- Bureaucratic. Too many instructions. You shouldn't need to tell players to win the match, but you should need to tell them to regulate energies and play defensively to get a draw or defend a minimum difference. Too many arrows.

- Not much fighting for rebounds.

- Too organized looks artificial to me.

- Players play better than IRL: too many accurate first time passes to be true that go directly to feet.

- Improve struggling in crosses and long balls.

Pros:

- Looks very good graphically.

So in general needs more struggling and chaos, less bureaucracy and instructions.

Can I ask which teams you've managed in order to gain these observations? Thanks

Just Sao Paulo. But I think it looks too good even for considered good clubs. There's not much fighting to get positions for corners and all the grabbing. Needs to represent more aggression. Not even world class players have perfect ball control and are so organized to pass. It's like players are too perfect. Maybe they need less skill. I don't think you need to observe many matches to get a general intuition or view about the game. Just observe a corner, you won't see the struggling. It's just each player standing in position like in a theatre.

Hmmm, maybe you should find a very poor club and experience some games at that level. Only then can you truly assess the situation. At the moment I don't think you have anything to compare with

I have also searched for videos on internet to see other people's game. I have the same feeling. There is too much space left for my liking.

Whilst I do agree with you, the 3D ME is still very much in its formatitive stage, and there is still a lot of room for improvement, but I definitely think this year has been a vast improvement and a solid step in the right direction. I feel we may see further improvements ion the coming editions but remember this is a management sim first and foremost.

Intruder I do agree with you! The game is really too much artificial. There are lot of passes that go too accurately to player's feet. I want to add that they play all the time in the same way, doing the same over and over. The problem is not the tactic, the problem is the ME. I shouldnt be a NASA technician to figure out how to use 10 instructions that are really basic for people who watch football like us.

And as you said, players play too much organised, too perfectly. Big team's players make mistakes also. it's a bit stupid to ask "what team are you??" Dont Ronaldo, Messi etc etc make mistakes?

Yes. I hope they're considering to add a bit of struggle, non-foul pushing or grabbing, and more chaos to the match; and less perfect skills. Not even Gerrard nor Scholes nor Lampard have perfect first time passing. When the exceptional case happens and they make perfect first time passes, it's more likely it will result in a goal, depending of the striker's good off the ball movement and anticipation.

I'm trying to improve the game too. Well, I care more about the match design, rather than all the administrative elements. Just to add more to the scope of possible team moves.

Can I just ask, are you watching highlights or the full match?

I agree good post! If only they considered the average smo's thoughts though especially when regular douches enter threads just to criticise whatever you say. It seems that good points get overlooked and a fight becomes something the moderators and team decide to waste their time on. But more jostling ESPECIALLY at coners would show vast improvement

Only one time I watched the full match. But I think like Antigol: perfect passes seem common and repetitive. Maybe I am mistaken. Perhaps I have to play more and watch more carefully the passing game.

I still think there is little struggling for dead balls, 50/50 balls, etc. I expect players colliding, falling, pushing, kicking, etc. Actually, players look too silky in match. Not everyone should be Arsenal.

Yes, GeenieScout, I do agree. Midfield should have more struggle too, more midfield battles, with players getting anticipated, then regaining the ball, misscontrolling it, favouring a rival, while this rival is anticipated again, etc. This is what I mean when I refer to reducing clean moves and passes. To make it more like a struggle.

I do agree with you about the struggling, all I can say is this will hopefully addressed in later releases as I'd imagine this is very hard to replicate, but more scrapping in the box at corners for the game would add more realism.

Watch a few full matches and you'll see that alot of passes are misplaced. The stats at the end of the game will support this. At least this is true for me... maybe it's my tactics.

OP...you bring up an EXCELLENT point! This would be a tremendous addition. Also, to anyone who thinks this is not something managers worry about IRL; I constantly have to think about how physical my players are as that affects the tactics I choose. Yes, I only coach high school in America, but it is still soccer and it still has tactics.

Definitely, I agree. I know that this caused a lot of goals from corners in FM08 to be disallowed for pushes though, maybe it has taken a back seat as a result.

This is a very good topic and I like the suggestions. The match engine is brilliant so far. Like gunner86 said, it's still in the early stages. I think the above suggestions can help take it to the next level.

This is a very good topic and I like the suggestions. The match engine is brilliant so far. Like gunner86 said, it's still in the early stages. I think the above suggestions can help take it to the next level.

Great reminder. I think the ME is really good. I am excited to see it move from good-to-great.

Fingers crossed for either a good patch or some more big steps forward in FM2011

I think the match engine is very good as it is. Just wanted to point out those details. Other companies haven't developed a match engine at the same level. I think SI is placed 6 years ahead its competitors.

I think FM2007 was better representing struggle in corners. Passes weren't perfect, but on the contrary, low league players were too bad in their silly mistakes and anything could happen too often.

Are you watching it on key highlights or extended? Surely if your on Key highlights your not going to see that bad passes etc?

Jossling for position at corners and things would be a nice addition and im sure it will come eventually as more and more gets added to the animations and ME over the next few years.

I think this jostling etc may actually already be happening in the ME...thats why attribute like strength, determination and aggression can be so important. The problem isn't really the ME but more how these things are portrayed (or not portrayed) in 3d and this will continue to improve as new animations are added.

On the accurate passing i think if you look at the passing stats for teams or for individuals you will actually find they are quite accurate when compared with palyers and teams of a similar calibre in real life.

Let's make it clear. The ME is the best one ever, no doubt about it. The problem is since the game was released (CM4), you need to read a lot to figure out how to make simple tactics and most times players do the same moves.

Sometimes It's difficult to understand how people here beat Real Madrid 6-4 playing in "Highlights", Ronaldo and Kaka etc are supposed to be so difficult to stop that you should study how to do it.

more violence needed! Not necessarily elbows and other really nasty stuff but definitely more jostling, shoulder-charges, sliding tackles, shirt-pulling and arguments! Basically add more of anything which can be added to the match, and the whole game experience itself (more scandals! more bad attitudes!) , of course without any players trying to sue SI for being (mis)represented as an evil **** in the game!

Yes, like Adebayor

Real football matches have a lot of struggling in it. The attitude, position occupied and movement determine performance rather than silky skill. That's how sometimes low league teams beat premier league teams. These factors determine which skill should be used. Skill is needed but is not enough.

I would question attribute values too. I think the range 1-20 is too big. I'd rather have players who have or not the skill. World Class players should be recognized for specific skills, like Cristiano Ronaldo (certain kind of dribbling and long shots), Shearer (heading, shooting & strength), Giggs (dribbling in long steps ala Cruyff), etc. Example: at a professional level, I don't think there should be such a big range for measuring passing. More or less they all know how to pass. Maybe it would be more qualitative to have different kinds of passing instead of quantitative measurements.

So, concluding, i think there should be less values, but the scope of attributes could be much wider and qualitative rather than quantitative. X player has Y characteristic or hasn't it. Maybe the numeric values should be replaced by: bad, average, good as a way not to completely eliminate quantitative differences.

more violence needed! Not necessarily elbows and other really nasty stuff but definitely more jostling, shoulder-charges, sliding tackles, shirt-pulling and arguments! Basically add more of anything which can be added to the match, and the whole game experience itself (more scandals! more bad attitudes!) , of course without any players trying to sue SI for being (mis)represented as an evil **** in the game!

I wouldn't say more violence but it certainly lacks of rough duels. The "battle" for the ball could/should be harder. I also agree that the matches are too organized, that players stick too often to a precise position... There should be more "random" positioning" especially while attacking !

I agree with the OP. I've played many times with lower league ( like PSG ) but it's incredible when you see all very nices passes coming from one side to another. This should not happen often. Something like human mistakes is missing in the engine match, I mean not stupid mistakes , but concentration mitakes, collective mistakes, or just simply random mistakes which are happening quiet enough in reality. The only difference I'm seeing mostly between Manchester and PSG is the collective speed, otherwisen PSG is almost playing the same nice game, this is not fair !!!

For me the passes are not enough missed ( short or long ), and for that if the opposite team moves more, they will catch more balls and you will then have more fight on the pitch, more tackling to try to catch the ball. It seems that movement of players are not well developped. The more you move and the more you get a chance to have a nice football match with more "mistakes" and creativity.

Maybe a simple patch can make the movement increase ? Disorganised moves of players are reality.

Thanks.

i just had a match and i saw lots of passing mistakes from my team... in full highlights , because you watch key they show the good chances with good passing ect try watching a full highlight match and reply how it goes.

chaos is a difficult thing to programme because we are talking about mini robots, essentially.

i think this 'randomness' improves year on year but this is the holy grail when it comes to programming, i guess, and very difficult to achieve.

Ok, now did you see an opponent player catching enough the passes ? For me not enough because the pressing in FM is not enough. Even if you put your tactics with max pressing, the player are not going towards the opponents enough to create "fight in the middle".

On the pitch you should see a minimum pressing which allow the engine match to find different types of solutions, more creativity and unexpected situations will happen !!!

I've rarely seen 2 or 3 players trying to fight with a player who has the ball!

i just had a match and i saw lots of passing mistakes from my team... in full highlights , because you watch key they show the good chances with good passing ect try watching a full highlight match and reply how it goes.

Ok, now did you see an opponent player catching enough the passes ? For me not enough because the pressing in FM is not enough. Even if you put your tactics with max pressing, the player are not going towards the opponents enough to create "fight in the middle".

On the pitch you should see a minimum pressing which allow the engine match to find different types of solutions, more creativity and unexpected situations will happen !!!

I've rarely seen 2 or 3 players trying to fight with a player who has the ball!

yeah i get your point

i did see some pressing but only when the 1 opponent is near my player and the player is near the touchline , so he cant move out of the way ect but not enough of it.

in 10 they don't fight or press lots ect the only way you can get the ball is if they do a mistake from passing ,crossing or do a far shot, or miss the chance or near the touchline.

in real life 2 or 3 players dont get 1 ball.

Maybe a patch can increase player moves in FM2010 ?

AI should "see" from far where is the ball, here it seems they keep their position because AI has a "weak eye" ( I hope you understand ).

I'm not a professional in coding and AI but someone of SI will understand waht I mean.

Thanks.

yeah i get your point

i did see some pressing but only when the 1 opponent is near my player and the player is near the touchline , so he cant move out of the way ect but not enough of it

in 10 they don't fight or press lots ect the only way you can get the ball is if they do a mistake from passing ,crossing or do a far shot, or miss the chance or near the touchline.

in real life 2 or 3 players dont get 1 ball ,

Eesh. My players play a little bit like robots (BSP), but they're certainly not playing superbly. Some terrible, terrible passing going on. I can't count the number of times I've given away possession due to poor passing. Curiously the CPU does this about 90% less than my team

I think it will be hard for S.I to make the A.I more unorganized and more human like , like what i said before is FM match's are not the same as Real life matches , and if FM trys to change the A.I there will be lots of bugs faults ect so might as well put up with it.

- Bureaucratic. Too many instructions. You shouldn't need to tell players to win the match, but you should need to tell them to regulate energies and play defensively to get a draw or defend a minimum difference. Too many arrows.

It needs like 4 freaking clicks to go from team selection to the start of the match , no "start the stupid game with 1 click " button .

Yes, but I'm alsmost sure that if you increase a little bit the distance from when the closer player should reactt will change the match and give the CPU more chance to use creativity and less expected actions.

I think it will be hard for S.I to make the A.I more unorganized and more human like , like what i said before is FM match's are not the same as Real life matches , and if FM trys to change the A.I there will be lots of bugs faults ect so might as well put up with it.

I agree with the instructions overload. There's somethings we shouldn't need to tell a profissional player in a big club. It feels at times, that we are managing an under 13 team with alzheimer's

I think it will be hard for S.I to make the A.I more unorganized and more human like , like what i said before is FM match's are not the same as Real life matches , and if FM trys to change the A.I there will be lots of bugs faults ect so might as well put up with it.

Well, I am sure things will improve in the future! If SI does not do any major changes as the years roll by, FM would just be a boring game to play. In order to survive, changes are an absolute necessity!

anyone here knows why si always gets the managers age wrong, mainly ours. if i play in italy i have my real age of 25 but in France i have 29. Why?!

It needs like 4 freaking clicks to go from team selection to the start of the match , no "start the stupid game with 1 click " button .

Go to "Preferences" and untick the box next to "Match day experience" and viola, you are in "start the stupid game with 1 click" mode

I don't understand tha argument of SI telling that because of licence, they could not implemente a closer view to see the player.

CM has done a closer view, why not SI !!!

I doubt that the real arguement is not here, but in the quality of animations.

You've just turned my (useless) brain on.

I've noticed this weekend with analysis tools so few interceptions.

But I need to check more games analysis at home.

You will see also :

- so less missed passes

- less tackle

And all this in a full 90min of a football match, no way, it's not real !

SI has to see the result and correct the engine match with more player reaction !!!

You've just turned my (useless) brain on.

I've noticed this weekend with analysis tools so few interceptions.

But I need to check more games analysis at home.

Go to "Preferences" and untick the box next to "Match day experience" and viola, you are in "start the stupid game with 1 click" mode

Hey thanks for the tip , next time i will PM you all the questions i have

Can I just ask, are you watching highlights or the full match?

this is a very good point, if its key moments then the chances are it will be a good move and good passing, try watching a full game and you`ll see the real side of footy more and some bad passing lol

See just the analysis tool and see the intercepted passes, tackles and missed passes in a full 90 min match. You will noticed that it's not possible so less !!!

It just means that there is no phisical contact with opponents and no move enough.

And you will notice it in the match.

We have to increase the reactions of CPU.

this is a very good point, if its key moments then the chances are it will be a good move and good passing, try watching a full game and you`ll see the real side of footy more and some bad passing lol

In the feed back my assitant always tell me we are doing some bad passing, and i said how am i ?(this is when i was watching Key ) so i watched full highlights and i agreed with him totally,i did do some bad passing.

but there was not that much interceptions and tackles.

(edit) in real life there arnt that much one on one steals , it depends what tackle's you mean, nowadays you might see bullying off the ball , or on one on shoulder barging for the ball, ect and that you will never see in FM . i think its cause of the match Engine .

What about the number of inteceptions, it seems very less.

If a parameter exists to change the reaction of the player, it will increase the number of interceptions and you will have a more diffciult match with ball going in one cap to another more often, like in reality !! ( you fight to get the ball !!! )

In the feed back my assitant always tell me we are doing some bad passing, and i said how am i ?(this is when i was watching Key ) so i watched full highlights and i agreed with him totally,i did do some bad passing.

but there was not that much interceptions and tackles.

(edit) in real life there arnt that much one on one steals , it depends what tackle's you mean, nowadays you might see bullying off the ball , or on one on shoulder barging for the ball, ect and that you will never see in FM . i think its cause of the match Engine .

I definitely agree with the OP's point on players not really jostling for position on corners. There should be more movement than what is there presently, but it's not game-breaking and as with so many of these little details, it doesn't make any tangible difference to final results. Not that I can see anyway.

More movement means more chance to catch the ball and to turn the match in more difficult, more imagination and creativity for the player having the ball, in my opinion...

So it's not useless, each player will move to catch the player and be prepared to an unexpected actions, great no ? ( the more you will have interceptions, the more the match will become interesting )

I definitely agree with the OP's point on players not really jostling for position on corners. There should be more movement than what is there presently, but it's not game-breaking and as with so many of these little details, it doesn't make any tangible difference to final results. Not that I can see anyway.

personlly i think if the players was jostling then it would look ga-y... it would be like cardboard moving up or down or left and right like shaking or something . it will look kind of embarrassed on the detail of the jostling.