Question on the relation between attributes and CA

I would like to understand why (at least until FM09) some attributes are "controlled" by the player's CA and some are not...

Looking at the attributes we can see:

Aggression - I can see it not being weighted into CA, as it can sometimes be good, as it allows players to win more balls, but it can also be bad, by making it more likely to foul other players and possibly be ejected.

Flair - I can also understand this attribute not being weighted, as it can be a good thing, if you have the skill to use your flair, but be a bad thing if you have a lot of "flair" but no skill to actually use it, and end up just wasting possession.

Now, what I don't understand, is why a attribute you can see, determination, and a few that you cannot see, like important matches, pressure and consistency, don't factor into a player's CA.

Being more determined is surely always a good thing, just as being consistent, doing well in important matches or playing well under pressure... So why would two players with the same attributes for all the weighted attributes (pace, passing, etc) and diametrically opposite levels of determination, consistency, etc have the same CA?? They surely are not AS good.

I have a theory for this, but no inside information into the workings of the ME, so I would appreciate comments from those who do... Maybe this is the case because these variables only affect the in-game motivation/morale of players (the thing you can see in the player motivation screen), but do not affect in game situations through any other channel - for instance players with high determination are more likely to be fired up, or players with high pressure rating less likely to feel nervous. If this is the case, the disconnect between these ratings and CA would make sense to me, as CA tells how good two players with the same morale are, but then the morale/motivation (which we can observe) can make one play better.

Also, in a related question, I would like to ask to the ones who know, if there are some ratings that only affect morale/motivation in-game, and some that only affect it between games, for instance determination boosting motivation after the team suffering a goal, and adaptability affecting the morale of a player, in between games, as it affects how he feels when arriving at a new country.

Well, I wish someone who actually knows would comment, but I would also welcome everyone's opinions and theories.

Educated guess is it has to do with the model design choice. CA is allowed to develop naturally outside of match practice (with a decreasing impact as a player gets older, roughly stagnating around 23/24). Attributes that don't increase 'naturally' with training are therefore disconnected from CA. It's a fair question you have and depends on perspective, but a line has to be drawn somewhere in terms of the mathematics of the system and CA is the elegant choice with regards to what a user experiences without knowledge of what goes on under the hood.

Very interesting OP. Maybe SI feel that the hidden attributes are hidden for a reason and it is our judgement as to what these hidden attributes actually are from our experiences with these players. But then when buying a player this would be harder. Maybe the core attributes can change in time where as the hidden attributes are more static as they are more inheritated/personality of the player in terms of naturally. Going into the match and when a team is behind you look at your players and are they the sort of players to thrive under pressure and to make a comeback or are they to wilt and not want the fight.

I would like to think that they are considered but how far do you go and how sopistcated is SI in playing out the match and looking at every possible variable and then comming up with a result? Do we give too much credit to SI in terms of this and do we think that as much as we want FM to reflect real life how many flaws does it have. As FM is a game and per programmed as SI have said there are so many codes etc then is there a certain blue print for success in FM e.g. tactics but maybe not so much now with the new tactics creator.

Also in terms of the hidden attributes, you cannot train everything. E.g. you cannot train somebody to have the mentality of Roy Keane, you are born with, i.e. a born winner etc. Pressure is down to the idividual and the manager cannot make a player to thrive under the pressure if hes generally has a weak mentaility.

isuckatfm: Maybe the connection with the training module is indeed the reason behind some attributes being weighted toward CA and some not being, but then it is weird why Flair and Natural Fitness, which are not weighted in CA, can be trained, while influence and bravery, which are weighted in CA, cannot be trained.

If indeed determination, consistency, imp matches, etc have a consistently positive effect on the match proceedings (and not through the channel of say morale), it makes the whole scouting of a player ability a little less useful, as you can no longer use it as a reliable way to sort players.

nev147: I have no qualms with some attributes being hidden, or non trainable (although I'm not so sure what is the criteria for some attributes being hidden and not others, for instance not so long ago penalty taking was a hidden attribute, did that make any sense??), what I think is that all the all attributes that have a unmistakeably positive or negative effect on the player playing skill should be weighted on the players CA, to make the scouts and assistant manager reports more useful.... as well as making the AI choose better players!! because I feel that now the AI will choose largely according to the players CA (and perhaps form and morale), ignoring the effects of all these unweighted hidden or not hidden attributes.

It's something I've often wondered as well, lance.

Determined, brave, naturally fit, professional players are always going to be better in FM because of the effect that those attributes have on motivation, CA development and maintenance, etc.

I think isuckatfm is probably close to the answer, though.

Tutoring players often results in very short-term jumps in things like determination and bravery, and other hidden attributes like 'dirtiness' seem to be modified through fining players. Perhaps it's just too complex to have these things linked to CA, because of that. The game works in a way that means it's always CA that goes up (through match experience, etc) and then that extra CA is distributed across attributes according to various weightings (some of which we can effect through training, some of which we can't). So it's never a case that attributes go up and then CA is adjusted, if you see what I mean.

You're right to point out that it disadvantages AI staff, though, whether that's your own scouts and coaches, or opposition managers, who rely very heavily on CA. I think there's a misconception that scouts will find out these hidden attributes and build them in to their star-ratings, when in reality they seem to go on CA and perhaps reputation and a few other variables.

Another indirect side effect of their being unweighted is that high-CA newgen players often have seemingly random values for some of these attributes. In FM09, natural fitness and bravery were far lower in top players 25 seasons in (ie, newgens) than they were in top players from the original database, for instance.

Just a quick question that has been brought up regarding scout reports. Do our scout reports base their star ratings on the current ability i.e. do they know the CA figure of that player when giving us a reccomendation. And also when our scouts rate a player on potential can they effectively see thier PA aswell? I thought that there recomendation was soley based on the stats. And can the scouts see the hidden attributes too I guess they can as they sometimes will say player x's strength is that he is a consistant perfromer? Cheers guys.

I don't think they use attributes.

It'll be some sort of formula which uses CA and perhaps reputation, and then takes in to account the scout's Judging Ability score (star ratings are always relative, of course, depending on your which club you are)

They report personality attributes in strengths and weaknesses, like you say, but I don't think they affect the star rating (because they don't affect CA).

Potential ability will be along the same lines, but will probably also take age in to account.

I don't think they use attributes.

It'll be some sort of formula which uses CA and perhaps reputation, and then takes in to account the scout's Judging Ability score (star ratings are always relative, of course, depending on your which club you are)

They report personality attributes in strengths and weaknesses, like you say, but I don't think they affect the star rating (because they don't affect CA).

Potential ability will be along the same lines, but will probably also take age in to account.

Ok cheers RT, never really thought about CA and PA in terms of numbers as they were not available to be in the game!

I have done some testing in FM08 that led me to believe that our assistant manager will not look into any kind of reputation when assigning his "stars"... The CA star assessment was affected by the players CA, and I believe it is also affect by form, as often I see the assistant assessment of the CA of a player jump due to the player playing well, even when no change in CA occurred. In terms of the star assessment of a player's PA, I can assure that the assistant will look at the players PA, the players CA!!, and the players age. Even when players are very young, the players CA factors heavily into the assistant manager assessment of his PA, I guess because it heavily influences if he will ever reach that limit.

I have not done similar tests regarding scout reports.

Assistant manager attributes that played a role in the stars given to players, besides JA and JP, are level of discipline, ambition and determination, although these 3 attributes have small effects in the precision of the assistant report.

There was some great research either last year or the year before where a guy looked into this statistically and worked out the formula for weighting. The players position comes into it from what I remember - so for example there are some generic free attributes for all positions (defenders, goalies, forwards etc) that don't count towards the CA, then take a central defender - the main attributes that affect his central defending ability obviously count towards his CA but then other attributes like a strikers eg finishing doesn't (for a DC). It works in that way for all the positions. I remember the post turning into a brilliant study. Obviously this is an old version of FM that was studied so it may have been tweaked since then who knows - it was quite possibly FM 08.

Check this thread out : http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=18848&highlight=current+attribute+research

The top link desn't work I think so you will have to go through the post but it is a very interesting post.

I know very well about that thread, I've posted some times on it... it is because I know which attributes are weighted and which ones are not that I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind this distinction.

I know very well about that thread, I've posted some times on it... it is because I know which attributes are weighted and which ones are not that I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind this distinction.

Fair enough lance101, it wasn't clear from your post if you had read this article and seeing as I last read it quite some time ago I had no idea you had posted on it previously. I had to search for it to leave the link, it's been that long.

Perhaps attributes which you are "born" with so to speak (some personality feature and stuff like natural fitness) and attributes not related to your player position don't affect the CA but ones that are more important to the players position are more crucial to the players ability to play that position and tell where he is at in terms of current ability to play in his particular position on the pitch.

As you are no doubt already aware other personality attributes like ambition and professionalism for example are more important in dictating how quickly a player is likely to improve his CA (or how close he can get to his PA).

Happy football managing!

To partly answer your question, lance:

Consistency is how many matches out of 25 a player plays to his CA. Whilst consistency does have some effect on CA, it is minimal. Anyway, I think it makes sense to not relate it to CA necessarily. A player who is brilliant every 5 matches but otherwise useless will need higher technical attributes than one who is workmanlike 4/5 matches.