Discussion over the new tactics wizard

Personally I am not a fan, I think the biggest pleasure in Fm is designing your own winning tactics. I didn't like it in FML, but tried using it in the demo and am still not won over. I am glad to see that you can still use the classic tactics, but I cannot seem to remove the annoying touchline instruction button on matchday.

Am I the only one who thinks it's a pointless feature or are there lots of fans of it on here, if so - why?

I think the whole of FM10 is like marmite, you either love it or you hate it, thankfully I like FM10 and the tactics wizard, adds another dimension to the game and more advance situations/plays in games.

im impressed with every aspect of the game, and the only reason i wish i didnt get the demo is now ive played it i want the real thing, but unfortunately gota wait 2 more weeks for it hahaha. love the new layout aswell, feels like a totally new game!

I think the whole of FM10 is like marmite, you either love it or you hate it, thankfully I like FM10 and the tactics wizard, adds another dimension to the game and more advance situations/plays in games.

I do wish SI would spend a bit more time developing features like the media and training for long-term fans, rather than focusing too much on new players with features which make the game very simple (tactics manager), or gimmicks like 3D.

I'd love more in depth media, player interactions and training, but I still enjoy the game (albeit not as much as I enjoyed some of the older versions).

CM is definitely catching up, but still has some distance to go - they actually seem to be heading towards each other in many ways.

I'll just quote a post from another thread

SmurfDude is exactly right.

Before you had to understand the sliders to understand the tactics. It didn't make sense in football terms, it didn't really use footballing vocabulary.

If you play a 4-4-2 with the two wide players with "Winger" roles and the one striker as a "Trequartista" then while it's 4-4-2 on paper, visually on the pitch and in terms of tactical work it'll more often resemble a 4-2-3-1.

It would be very time consuming to get this to happen previously, you'd need to fiddle with the sliders for every individual role, moving it all over the place, now it's an easy drop down menu.

You can also change easily from and to different strategies. It's easy to build one formation with different situations in mind without spending hours at a time.

It just feels right and that is coming from somebody who'd been very cynical of the Tactics & Training forums main theroies for several years.

http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=4014967&postcount=9

Think about it, does it not make more sense to think in football terms instead of fiddling around with sliders? You now tell a player their position, role and duty, makes much more sense than the sliders did.

I love the new tactic wizard. Its more realistic and much less mechanical. You can really tell your players and team how you want them to play! I don't see how more control and a more 'hands on approach' can be seen as a bad thing.

I do wish SI would spend a bit more time developing features like the media and training for long-term fans, rather than focusing too much on new players with features which make the game very simple (tactics manager), or gimmicks like 3D.

I'd love more in depth media, player interactions and training

My hunch is that these issues will be prioritized for FM11.

Personally I am not a fan, I think the biggest pleasure in Fm is designing your own winning tactics. I didn't like it in FML, but tried using it in the demo and am still not won over. I am glad to see that you can still use the classic tactics, but I cannot seem to remove the annoying touchline instruction button on matchday.

Am I the only one who thinks it's a pointless feature or are there lots of fans of it on here, if so - why?

I agree that if you use Classic tactics that the touchline instruction button should disappear.

The whole "touchline instruction" development is, for me, a major plus, and I use it constantly. One of the issues I've had with former versions is the fact that it's a balancing act, utilising sliders, to get the results you want. Management, irl, isn't like that. Much can be changed by a bellow from the touchline, rather than having to use logarithms and algorithms to achieve the necessary balance by sliding faders to and fro.

I've used the wizard too, and love it. Contrary to the opinions of many on here, I felt that FM DID have to be simplified, somewhat, without losing the challenge, simply because it felt like it was becoming a chore rather than a past-time.

Personally, I'm loving it. Telling the player what his role is and how you would like him to play it, rather than tinkering with slider positions is totally more realistic, in my opinion. I like to set up the same formation and basic tactic in friendlies with different instructions for the players starting the game, then watch how those instructions change the shape of the game during the 3D match. Priceless.

I also must agree that I'd love to see the media aspects inhanced. As for training, several years ago they tried a system where the manager micromanaged the training sessions, but it really didn't work. They could try again, but I believe that failure led them to the more generic approach they've used the past few years.

yeah i'm really unsure about this. The idea of the new tactics creator is great, and as that quoted post highlights, it certainly makes more sense in footballing terms than the old slider system. But i dunno, for the first time i find myself going back to FM09 rather than playing for hours on the new demo (and its not because i've got a good save going on 09...in fact i've just started one). Maybe i had just gotten used to the sliders of old, but combined with the other new features (especially the backroom advice which i find to be far too prescriptive) it feels overall to me that the game has been 'dumbed down' a bit. Now don't get me wrong i'm not necessarily saying that's defintely a bad thing, and i'm not trying to bag the game as I'm sure it will be as dangerously addictive as ever, but as i said for the first time i find myself going back to the previous version. Hell i've even thought about cancelling my pre-order. It's not because i don't think the game will be great overall, but probably moreso because i'm not convinced that its enough of a leap forward to justify a whole new game.

I think i'll have to give it more of a go and see if i get sucked in!

touchline instruction is a great feature and its good for people who wants managing to imrpove and makes matches more exciting since there are lots of shouts ect and are able to make quick subs i think this feature is useful very useful

The new touchline instruction is a add on you don't have to use it but its something that wasn't in 09 , its something that will help you in matches, its something that answers people when they said I cant be Bum going to tactic page then going to page then going to tactic page every time I need to change something its a feature that it improves management and should be in a management game.

i love fm10 <3

Bear in-mind you can ignore the tactics creator completely if you want - just use the 'Convert To Classic...' option and you'll get the old UI exactly as it was before.

So that really shouldn't be a reason to go back to FM09

i'm assuming this was in response to my post, if not, just ignore me;)

The change to the tactics creator isn't by itslef something that would make me not get the new game. Like i said, i still think the game looks great. I'm just not sure if its enough of a leap forward to make me shell out another $100 AUS (yes i am getting older and tighter!). THere's nothing i think is bad about the new game per se (well apart from the terrible job done on the arsenal research ) it's just that the new features aren't really grabbing me as much as they seem to be most others. Don't worry though, i'll keep giving the demo a go:thup:

I'm liking the new wizard and giving it a good go in the demo. No corner options seems a little odd though.

The tactics creator is my favourite new feature. I never could be bothered faffing about with all those sliders. Now I don't even look at the damn things unless I need to change a players individual instructions a bit

Personally I am not a fan, I think the biggest pleasure in Fm is designing your own winning tactics. I didn't like it in FML, but tried using it in the demo and am still not won over. I am glad to see that you can still use the classic tactics, but I cannot seem to remove the annoying touchline instruction button on matchday.

Am I the only one who thinks it's a pointless feature or are there lots of fans of it on here, if so - why?

Actually once you get used to it you will find it of tremendous benefit.. This was first introduced in Football Manager Live and people were initially put off because they didnt understand it, once they figured it out people started using it to great effect.

Basically the wizard creates the base of a tactic, the touchline instructions work a treat to changing how your team behaves in this tactic. So instead of having several copies of the same basic formation you only need one and change between the playing styles. Ie standard for normal play, contain to close out a match and overload to come back.

What you need to understand though is if you want to use the touchline instructions do not change too many of the individual instructions as the touchline instruction wont change anything you put in yourself (leave em grey).

As you point out the classic formations are still there so you can keep your 100 tactics tailored for each situation.. I like having mine limited to 3 or 4 which I can change on the fly.

It's superb, and it is a fantastic addition to appeal to a bigger portion of gamers. While the original "classic" system was very extensive, I think the amount of requests in the tactics subforum is proof that a rather large percentage of people just can't be bothered to spend hours/days to create a decent tactic. It's not always down to laziness, but sometimes such as in my case, i have a full time job and juggle between game and family/friends/social life, i simply can't be bothered to test tactics by tweaking the slders one notch at a time.

I am loving this new system so far, it makes those 'casual' games that much more fun and realistic. Of course, should i ever wish to torture myself with a LLM game i could always revert to the classic system and spend a few nights toiling away in the basement. Well done SI.

I'm going to give it a fair chance before deciding. At the moment I'm enjoying it, but I've only played a handful of matches. I'm hoping to play a few saves on the demo before I decide on it's effectiveness.

It really helps with immersion - as someone perfectly summed up on another thread, which manager explains tactics to his team via sliders?? I feel much more like the head man on the touchline now. Unfortunately, the bottom-line is the wizard is ultimately not as effective sliders then there's a fair chance it'll be ditched.

I think the new tactics wizard is very good, as others have said you can now tell a player exactly what you want him to do and if it needs any adjustment you can click the advanced tab and change something if it needs to, for example if the roll you have selected for the player has a lot of running with the ball but the players skill is quite poor at this for his level then you can lower it etc.

the total trial and error of the old system was good in some respects but the time it needed to make a good working tactic if you were not used the system or could not work it out was way to high, im not 100% sure but i would imagine that even when using the the new tactics creator there will still be some trial and error involved as to what type of roll suits what player and what "minor" adjustments need to be made.

gets a big thumbs up from me and is probably the main reason why i will be getting FM10 where as i sometimes miss a year depending on my impressions of the new games demo, as for the game not being that much different from 09 well isnt that the case each year, 08 was not that much different from 07, 09 was not that much different from 08 etc etc

Found the corner options hidden away in Advanced options for the tactics wizard.

Personally, I love this new feature. Don't have to deal with confusing sliders anymore.

It's more newbie friendly and makes the game more appealing for casual playing and it shows the main attributes for the particular role, excellent!

Would be great if set-pieces can be more developed, have more control over it. As of now, I can only set my players to 1 specific instruction.

I like the idea a lot: it's a whole lot more intuitive

That said, unless they've slightly "detuned" the sensitivity of the tactic engine to tiny slider movements, it'll still be inferior to a sophisticated set of formations built using sliders. There doesn't seem to be much justification for hiding the team corner settings and the "focus passing" settings under an "advanced" tab, for example.

One default tactical setup they don't seem to have implemented is the standard strategy used by a reasonably dominant team to close out a game with minimal effort (low tempo, short passes, reasonably attacking and wide positioning and moderate timewasting). The low tempo slider setting for the standard counter-attacking side seems a bit odd as well.

The biggest tactical boon is the individual wide play settings for each player though.

Actually once you get used to it you will find it of tremendous benefit.. This was first introduced in Football Manager Live and people were initially put off because they didnt understand it, once they figured it out people started using it to great effect.

Basically the wizard creates the base of a tactic, the touchline instructions work a treat to changing how your team behaves in this tactic. So instead of having several copies of the same basic formation you only need one and change between the playing styles. Ie standard for normal play, contain to close out a match and overload to come back.

What you need to understand though is if you want to use the touchline instructions do not change too many of the individual instructions as the touchline instruction wont change anything you put in yourself (leave em grey).

As you point out the classic formations are still there so you can keep your 100 tactics tailored for each situation.. I like having mine limited to 3 or 4 which I can change on the fly.

Yeah i was wondering about that. I haven't had enough time this week to have an indepth look at the new tactics engine, but was wondering what kind of effect changing individual player instructions the 'old way' would have on the default tactic and the touchline shouts. IE how much 'tweaking' can you get away with before you basically compromise the original tactic set up, or the impact of a touchline shout? Has anyone tested this much?

What the wizard basically does is massively speed up the implementation and alteration of tactics.

You can't really do anything that you previously couldn't, it's just much easier and faster to use.

Didn't read through everyone's comment, but I personally think it's a major improvement in the reality of the game. No manager sits there and counts out how many tickets on a 20 tick slider he wants his team's mentality to be. The tactics wizard is much more like a conversation with your players about how you want them to play. In real life, if you tell Luka Modric to play on the left in an advanced playmaker role, or Robbie Keane to play on the right but cut inside and attack the box, they are going to know exactly what you want from them. Kudos, SI. best improvement to the game in a lonnnnggg time.

I like it, I've already gotten used to it, making the template formation with the settings and the wizard then fine tuning it with the advanced button and the sliders. Best part about the manager shouts is that you know that you're doing something, unlike how fifa manager was when I last played it.

am defo a fan of the tactics wizard can finaly get my team to play i want it to without having to click a slider by 1 or 2 notches never really understood what i was doing love the descriptions to just makes tactic building a whole lot more fun and you can get on with progressing in the game

Bear in-mind you can ignore the tactics creator completely if you want - just use the 'Convert To Classic...' option and you'll get the old UI exactly as it was before.

So that really shouldn't be a reason to go back to FM09

Hi Ov,

I do convert to classic tactics, but you still see the touchilne shouts box in-match.

Actually once you get used to it you will find it of tremendous benefit.. This was first introduced in Football Manager Live and people were initially put off because they didnt understand it, once they figured it out people started using it to great effect.

Basically the wizard creates the base of a tactic, the touchline instructions work a treat to changing how your team behaves in this tactic. So instead of having several copies of the same basic formation you only need one and change between the playing styles. Ie standard for normal play, contain to close out a match and overload to come back.

What you need to understand though is if you want to use the touchline instructions do not change too many of the individual instructions as the touchline instruction wont change anything you put in yourself (leave em grey).

As you point out the classic formations are still there so you can keep your 100 tactics tailored for each situation.. I like having mine limited to 3 or 4 which I can change on the fly.

I used it in FML, I did the beta testing and really enjoyed the game until this aspect was introduced. I prefer the classic system and think this wizard takes much of the fun of devising great tactics away.

God i love it .. LOVE IT!!!!!

I can build a tactic that actually works most of the time.

There is still the possiblity of going with counter when standard/defence might be better choices, so it's not an instant <I WIN!> button.

I hated the sliders .... thier ambiguity, thier lack of clarity ....... it was far too easy to build a tactic that was only destined to fail, and it was too easy because of thier ambiguity..

I know the sliders arent dead, and understand that they are tucked away underneath a nice clear tidy interface, and im relieved i will never ever have to deal with them again.

I love the tactics wizard but some things i just dont understand. On the slider system there were 20 or so notches for each criteria such as tempo. Now there are just 3 options, reduced, normal or extended. I like to play with lots of widemen, i dont think at any point in the wizaerd it asked where i wanted to focus my passing it just seems to know somehow? Does it make educated guesses from my formation and player roles?

personally, I love the new wizard. I struggled a bit with the 09 tactics and although I have a good football knowledge I felt as if that wasn't rewarded and to be good at the game you had to learn how the tactics system worked rather than understanding real tactics.

I think the new wizard is great. You know what you want a player to do and you can pick exactly what the player needs to do.

The only advance I could see is some form of arrows to highlight exactly what you are saying to a player but I think the fact it has cut down having to spend hours on a non football term is brilliant.

I love the tactics wizard but some things i just dont understand. On the slider system there were 20 or so notches for each criteria such as tempo. Now there are just 3 options, reduced, normal or extended. I like to play with lots of widemen, i dont think at any point in the wizaerd it asked where i wanted to focus my passing it just seems to know somehow? Does it make educated guesses from my formation and player roles?

You can focus your passing. Go to team instructions and click on the Advanced tab and you will find focus passing in the Specific Instructions. Also in the same place as focus passing there is the Tempo slider, just click on the box and then you can adjust it to suit your tactic. I have mine set on 15 notches which is Quick. Hope this helps.

You can focus your passing. Go to team instructions and click on the Advanced tab and you will find focus passing in the Specific Instructions. Also in the same place as focus passing there is the Tempo slider, just click on the box and then you can adjust it to suit your tactic. I have mine set on 15 notches which is Quick. Hope this helps.

What i really meant was,

The wizard asks about your passing style and gives you direct, short and normal. My point is there must be more than 3 different passing variations in the game so evidently other stuff you select must be effecting your passing style and i imagine same with a lot of other options

Sorry Paul, just me being not thinking straight.

Sorry Paul, just me being not thinking straight.

No problem, i probably didnt expalin myself very well

I love the tactics wizard but some things i just dont understand. On the slider system there were 20 or so notches for each criteria such as tempo. Now there are just 3 options, reduced, normal or extended. I like to play with lots of widemen, i dont think at any point in the wizaerd it asked where i wanted to focus my passing it just seems to know somehow? Does it make educated guesses from my formation and player roles?

It would appear, if you play about with the settings while looking at the 'advanced settings' (ie, what you used to see on FM09) that passing focus is set to mixed, regardless of your formation or settings.

So I guess they're leaving it down to you, with your touchline instructions. If you want to play down the wings, 'exploit the flanks' will presumably set passing to both flanks.

(That does suggest you can't focus passing to one particular wing within the wizard, though!)

Otherwise, you're right that individual settings like passing, mentality, closing down, etc. and team settings like defensive line, tempo, etc. are affected by a whole host of inputs. Your basic formation, the different player roles, whether they're defend/support/attack, your fluidity settings and of course the match strategy (as well as all the shouts).

I have to say, I love the new tactics creator as well as the touchline shouts, quick substitution etc in-game. But I think the way the touchline shouts box appears UNDER the team name is a minor visual distraction during the matches - especially on sideline or touchline view. Is there any way to move or minimise it but still keep it useable?

Any comment from SI on that one?

I havn't gone onto the advanced settings yet and my team seems to be focussing down the wing without me telling to do it on the wizard, don't get me wrong, I wanted them to its just confusing me a little.

I did set my right and left midfielders to wingers though and they are very attacking, i play a pretty much 4-3-3 with the tow wide strikers as wingers and a little further back, maybe it also worked out thats how i'd want to play from the formation as all the central midfielders are quite far back

I've just been playing with various settings, and it doesn't seem to matter what formation/strategy/philosophy/roles I put in, the passing is always focused to 'mixed'. Of course, if your formation has out and out wingers, your players are going to use them as passing opporunities anyway. But my guess is that your passing is actually set to mixed

I think strategy will effect passing. Judging off wwfan's work on tactics, which clearly has influenced the new wizard, i would assume that a Defensive strategy will have more direct passing in the defence and shorter passing in the attack; in contrast, an Attacking strategy will have shorter passing in the defence and be more direct in attacking positions.

I haven't played the demo too much as i can't get into a game that i know i'll not be carrying on with. My initial impression on the wizard is a skeptical one, but i am open-minded. I do have 3 concerns though:

- Customising a created tactic is difficult if you want the shouts to work properly. Any team or individual instruction that has been edited yourself, i.e. you have ticked the box of that instruction so it is no longer greyed out, will not be effected by the touchline shouts. This is a big flaw on the system in my opinion and something which puts me off.

- The wizard seems to me a reactive solution to peoples lack of understanding of the classic tactical system. If a person does not understand the balance between the sliders, then they are going to be completely at sea when their wizard-created tactic isn't working. The wizard is good in that it allows people to make a tactic without having to play with the sliders themselves, but what happens when that tactic doesn't work? They have bypassed understanding the slider system by using the wizard, so they are going to struggle putting things right manually.

- Simplification was probably needed, but a retention of the depth and managerial responsibility with respect to tactics is also important. It is the big lure of Football Manager. So many possibilities to create a team playing how you want them to. Now, that has been lost; the wizard uses pre-sets, so the variation offered by the very in-depth slider system is no more. You can not modify the pre-sets too much else the touchline shouts will not work. So essentially the tactic is created for you by the game, which lessens the sense of achievement. I suppose on the flip side it puts more emphasis on playing players in a way which suits their attributes, and putting focus on a manager making changes via shouts/strategy changes which some may argue is more appropriate for a manager simulation. I think the conclusion here is that there is a big change in approach with the wizard (for better or worse, we'll see).

As i say, i'm open-minded. I think if the touchline shouts were sorted out in relation to the changes you may want to make to the pre-set tactic then it would potentially be a very good feature, because the theoretical argument in support of the wizard/shouts still holds firm and the potential for variation and individuality is retained from the freedom of the classic slider system.

I think strategy will effect passing. Judging off wwfan's work on tactics, which clearly has influenced the new wizard, i would assume that a Defensive strategy will have more direct passing in the defence and shorter passing in the attack; in contrast, an Attacking strategy will have shorter passing in the defence and be more direct in attacking positions.

I haven't played the demo too much as i can't get into a game that i know i'll not be carrying on with. My initial impression on the wizard is a skeptical one, but i am open-minded. I do have 3 concerns though:

- Customising a created tactic is difficult if you want the shouts to work properly. Any team or individual instruction that has been edited yourself, i.e. you have ticked the box of that instruction so it is no longer greyed out, will not be effected by the touchline shouts. This is a big flaw on the system in my opinion and something which puts me off.

- The wizard seems to me a reactive solution to peoples lack of understanding of the classic tactical system. If a person does not understand the balance between the sliders, then they are going to be completely at sea when their wizard-created tactic isn't working. The wizard is good in that it allows people to make a tactic without having to play with the sliders themselves, but what happens when that tactic doesn't work? They have bypassed understanding the slider system by using the wizard, so they are going to struggle putting things right manually.

- Simplification was probably needed, but a retention of the depth and managerial responsibility with respect to tactics is also important. It is the big lure of Football Manager. So many possibilities to create a team playing how you want them to. Now, that has been lost; the wizard uses pre-sets, so the variation offered by the very in-depth slider system is no more. You can not modify the pre-sets too much else the touchline shouts will not work. So essentially the tactic is created for you by the game, which lessens the sense of achievement. I suppose on the flip side it puts more emphasis on playing players in a way which suits their attributes, and putting focus on a manager making changes via shouts/strategy changes which some may argue is more appropriate for a manager simulation. I think the conclusion here is that there is a big change in approach with the wizard (for better or worse, we'll see).

As i say, i'm open-minded. I think if the touchline shouts were sorted out in relation to the changes you may want to make to the pre-set tactic then it would potentially be a very good feature, because the theoretical argument in support of the wizard/shouts still holds firm and the potential for variation and individuality is retained from the freedom of the classic slider system.

I'm probably the kind of person you mean by this. I'd say i know lots about football and tactics but always struggled to translate it into the sliders. I know what they mean individually but not releative to others when combining them. I assume the touchline shouts are the tweaks you can add if its not working. If you save the tactics after the shouts then it sticks I believe

I have my own reservations about the wizard, but lack of variation isn't one.

The combinations are endless. You have seven different playing style inputs, your philosophy and match strategy; combined with choice of formation as well with numerous different player roles for every position, which can be set to defend/support/attack; and then finally tailored with a wide variety of touchline shouts.

I think it's fair to say that no two players or AI managers are ever likely to have exactly the same settings.

Personally I am not a fan, I think the biggest pleasure in Fm is designing your own winning tactics. I didn't like it in FML, but tried using it in the demo and am still not won over. I am glad to see that you can still use the classic tactics, but I cannot seem to remove the annoying touchline instruction button on matchday.

Am I the only one who thinks it's a pointless feature or are there lots of fans of it on here, if so - why?

Is no different to downloading a tactic. Sad because it's going to become more and more like that due to their incorporation of it into the game.