support for GNU/Linux?

hi,

just wondering if the thought ever crossed someone at SI: how about we make this game support GNU/Linux operating systems?

it should be easier today than ever, thanks to Wine. a bunch of developers actually try to make applications that can easily be used via Wine, as opposed to making a truely native port. this naturally saves a lot of time, since you only have the one (Windows) version to bug fix (and develop altogether).

IMO its not worth it.. Most linux users already dual-boot with either XP or Vista (or win7 now). And Linux only have like 4% of the market..

If dual boot is not your flavor, try a virtualization software which will enable you to run Windows in GNU/Linux. Please remember that you still need all the necessary licenses (Win, FM) for this.

@herter

uh no most GNU/Linux users surely don't use Windows. there are some *Windows users* that dual boot GNU/Linux operating systems (typically Linux Mint and Ubuntu), but that's not the same thing at all.

and as already stated, it's easier now than ever. personally I have a Windows partition due to school-related stuff, but I hardly ever use it. I play my WoW, hack my C, surf my slashdot and listen to my emo in a GNU/Linux environment. I even play CM 93/94, 97/98 and 01/02 in it. and I want to play my FM in it too.

@theguy

virtualization is a pain unless you use a quad core CPU. especially when dealing with resource heavy applications such as Football Manager. Wine on the other hand lets applications run on a compatibility layer, so there's no loss. often games perform better in Wine than they do in a Windows environment. (my triple FPS on WoW is EPIC.)

I agree FM should work on Linux, FM2009 won't run in a virtual machine due to the lack of Graphics capabilities.

It may only have 4% market share but with Windows 7 (aka Vista Service Pack 1) being even worse than Vista, Mac ownership growing and Google lunching an OS next year the days of Microsoft having 90% of the market are going fast.

Mac users already get a rough deal at times because their user base isn't as big as the PC. You think SI are going to stretch their resources even thinner just to accommodate the geek-fest (okay maybe not as geeky as it used to be) that is Linux? Not likely

as mentioned, and as you would have seen if you took the time to read the op: it's easier than ever, thanks to Wine.

as mentioned, and as you would have seen if you took the time to read the op: it's easier than ever, thanks to Wine.

That isn't the point. They still have to support it and it's still likely that many modules would have to be recoded in some way. As I learned in my emerging technologies module, simplicity, ease of use and speed don't make an OS successful and good technology can be beaten by inferior technology (Microsoft prove that), but that's the way it is.

I don't see why what you're saying is relevant to anything though. my point is that it is lesser work than ever, and I'm asking whether SI has considered this and if not - would they consider it in the future.

I'm pretty sure there are no plans to support Linux, even through coding for Wine. It would be nice but unless they get more users, I don't see it happening any time soon.

Actually the market share for Linux on desktop is around 1%. Most users aren't even gamers so its truly a small market to target. I'm actually amazed that the game is made for macs since their user base is also small and most of it is in the US and we all know how they just love soccer. They also don't play a lot of games as they mostly sit in coffee shops writing a book or something cool.

but with Windows 7 (aka Vista Service Pack 1) being even worse than Vista,

I know its OT but I'm interested to know what you're basing this on. My view (and seemingly that of the wider tech press) is that Windows 7 is a far better OS than Vista.

My PC performance on Win7 outstrips my XP performance on the same machine.

awwww... that's too bad. as it is definitely unreasonable that the game isn't ported for all current operating systems (i.e. Windows, Mac OS X, the GNU/Linux family (which would probably work on the BSD family as well) and Solaris). it's excluding people, which really sucks. however I naturally understand that this is "work", and that you might have other priorities.

I know its OT but I'm interested to know what you're basing this on. My view (and seemingly that of the wider tech press) is that Windows 7 is a far better OS than Vista.

My PC performance on Win7 outstrips my XP performance on the same machine.

http://en.windows7sins.org/

I've yet to see a single article claiming Windows 7 is worse than Vista (and Vista's always been pefectly fine for me, but that's besides the point). As long as Windows is the dominant OS, people will make software for it, and while people are making software for it, Windows will still be the dominant OS - I don't see Windows market share dropping significantly in the near future, and that's especially true for gaming.

http://en.windows7sins.org/

What a load of nonsense. You can aim almost all of the criticisms on that site at Football Manager too, yet you're not complaining about that, are you?

yes I am. I am highly critical of the proprietary model and the worship of it as the only way of making money.

@herter

uh no most GNU/Linux users surely don't use Windows. there are some *Windows users* that dual boot GNU/Linux operating systems (typically Linux Mint and Ubuntu), but that's not the same thing at all.

Well in my university, which is FULL of linux-geeks most of them certainly do dual-boot.. as do ALOT of people outside university I know that are Linux users.. - I know there are also many "hardcore" linux geeks around that wouldnt touch windows, but there arent that many of those pinheads, thankfully

But anyhoo I can imagine in the future FM will support linux, but since there are so many distributions they probably cannot support all of them..

yes I am. I am highly critical of the proprietary model and the worship of it as the only way of making money.

Then you were born into the wrong world my friend.. money makes this world go round.. not much you can do about it .. Hippie-times are over

the distributions are the exact same. they just have different system tools. they all use the same kernel.

also resulting to name calling isn't really the way to go. I choose to avoid Windows because it is a proprietary operating system that doesn't even begin to cover my computer needs, and I imagine you have your reasons for using whatever operating system you deem fit.

you don't have to make proprietary software to make money. if you believe there is no money in Free Software, then you need to have a look around. your comparison between Free Software and "hippie-times" just leads to me believing you have no knowledge, understanding or appreciation for Free Software and the battle it does for you as a consumer.

The newest VirtualBox (http://www.virtualbox.org/) has experimental 3D acceleration support.

I successfully run FM2009 using a Windows XP Virtual Machine on Ubuntu 9.04 AMD64. The 3D match engine doesn't work, but the classic 2D dots work flawlessly.

FM2009 runs flawlessly using Wine (Instructions on how to do it).

I have been able to install FM2010 demo, but it wont start. I will work on it this afternoon, but prospects are good

the distributions are the exact same. they just have different system tools. they all use the same kernel.

also resulting to name calling isn't really the way to go. I choose to avoid Windows because it is a proprietary operating system that doesn't even begin to cover my computer needs, and I imagine you have your reasons for using whatever operating system you deem fit.

you don't have to make proprietary software to make money. if you believe there is no money in Free Software, then you need to have a look around. your comparison between Free Software and "hippie-times" just leads to me believing you have no knowledge, understanding or appreciation for Free Software and the battle it does for you as a consumer.

I know the distributions use the same kernel - However that doesnt automatically mean that all software that runs on one distribution can run without any problem on ALL other distributions.

And I never namecalled you.. I said the hippie-times are over.. and they are.. that has nothing to do with you as a person.

Although I agree that non-proprietary software easily can make money I'm just saying how the world works today (although it is changing more towards open software).. Most software developers do not want their code to be accessible to the public nor give it away for free.. thats just how it is.. However I do believe it will change over the years, but it doesnt happen overnight - In most cases there is more money in proprietary software therefor many software-houses go that route..

My reference to hippie-times is more directed at people that tend to think that all software developers that dont offer their software for free are pure evil.. Its every developers right to do as he/she chooses..

yes I am. I am highly critical of the proprietary model and the worship of it as the only way of making money.

Why? - Why do you have to care about what others do? If I choose to develop proprietary software and sell it to customers why does anyone have to whine about it? If you're not happy with proprietary software then dont buy it.. Develop your own product or find some other open software to use..

I know the distributions use the same kernel - However that doesnt automatically mean that all software that runs on one distribution can run without any problem on ALL other distributions.

yes it does. every software runs equally well on every GNU/Linux, unless one of them has a very awkward kernel. the operating systems are the exact same save for some minor differences in choice of tools and kernels. and if some software doesn't support your kernel (which is *highly* unlikely), you are free to compile your own kernel.

And I never namecalled you.. I said the hippie-times are over.. and they are.. that has nothing to do with you as a person.

"pinheads".

Although I agree that non-proprietary software easily can make money I'm just saying how the world works today (although it is changing more towards open software).. Most software developers do not want their code to be accessible to the public nor give it away for free.. thats just how it is.. However I do believe it will change over the years, but it doesnt happen overnight - In most cases there is more money in proprietary software therefor many software-houses go that route..

the tendencies are clear towards Free Software, because most people need that. a business does not want to be restrained by the chains of proprietary software and their hostile patents and copyrights. businesses often need to change software for their own usage. State institutions and schools even more so. and I haven't even mentioned how much money you can save on Free Software.

mor information to be found in Robin Miller's article "Why proprietary software is dangerous for business-critical applications" at: http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/56449

and Richard Stallman's article "Why schools should exclusively use free software" at: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/schools.html

My reference to hippie-times is more directed at people that tend to think that all software developers that dont offer their software for free are pure evil.. Its every developers right to do as he/she chooses..

they might not be evil, but they are pursuing freedom robbery.

Why? - Why do you have to care about what others do? If I choose to develop proprietary software and sell it to customers why does anyone have to whine about it? If you're not happy with proprietary software then dont buy it.. Develop your own product or find some other open software to use..

because proprietary software robs you off your basic computer freedoms and does is inherently "evil", like hippies allegedly call it according to your posts.

http://en.windows7sins.org/

Don't even bother argueing with this guy, someone who worships trash like that can't be changed. Think of them as 70-80 year old grandparents who are racist.

yes it does. every software runs equally well on every GNU/Linux, unless one of them has a very awkward kernel. the operating systems are the exact same save for some minor differences in choice of tools and kernels. and if some software doesn't support your kernel (which is *highly* unlikely), you are free to compile your own kernel.

This is untrue. For example, the process scheduler in linux.

because proprietary software robs you off your basic computer freedoms and does is inherently "evil", like hippies allegedly call it according to your posts.

What are my computer freedoms? I want a source on this.

Think of them as 70-80 year old grandparents who are racist..

That is a fantastic analogy!

Don't even bother argueing with this guy, someone who worships trash like that can't be changed. Think of them as 70-80 year old grandparents who are racist.

I don't know whether I should bother taking the rest of your post seriously, but....

This is untrue. For example, the process scheduler in linux.

as in the scheduling algorithms in the kernel? those are... in the kernel. which can be compiled at will.

What are my computer freedoms? I want a source on this.

the four basic freedoms as stated by the Free Software Definition are:

-The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).

-The freedom to study how the program works, and change it to make it do what you wish (freedom 1).

-The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).

-The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements (and modified versions in general) to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3).

I don't know whether I should bother taking the rest of your post seriously, but....

as in the scheduling algorithms in the kernel? those are... in the kernel. which can be compiled at will.

the four basic freedoms as stated by the Free Software Definition are:

-The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).

-The freedom to study how the program works, and change it to make it do what you wish (freedom 1).

-The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).

-The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements (and modified versions in general) to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3).

So why should this apply to computers, but not to, for example, cars?

So why should this apply to computers, but not to, for example, cars?

You are free to take your car apart, give research on how it works, make a perfect copy of that car (good luck though) and give it to your neighbour and then give this improved product out to the public.

Software is different as it is so easy to copy and modify software - but not a car. You can bet that if making a car was as easy as learning your times tables, there would be "open source cars" or a rough equivalent.

Open source has its weaknesses - a lot of open source projects do not have a centralised chain of command and a functioning support team making it less useful in a corporate environment, for example. Open source is not the solution to everything - closed source has its uses too.

Open source has its weaknesses - a lot of open source projects do not have a centralised chain of command and a functioning support team making it less useful in a corporate environment, for example. Open source is not the solution to everything - closed source has its uses too.

first off, I'm not arguing Open Source software but Free Software.

now that that's out of the way: I disagree. the decentralization is in fact a strenght, not a weakness. a lot of Free Software (and Open Source software) do not offer support lines and such, but they weigh it up by being completely free and offering community based help (forums, irc and so on). I would rather log onto #java and ask for help about IcedTea, than call Sun to get help with my Sun Java - to take a fair example.

first off, I'm not arguing Open Source software but Free Software.

now that that's out of the way: I disagree. the decentralization is in fact a strenght, not a weakness. a lot of Free Software (and Open Source software) do not offer support lines and such, but they weigh it up by being completely free and offering community based help (forums, irc and so on). I would rather log onto #java and ask for help about IcedTea, than call Sun to get help with my Sun Java - to take a fair example.

Yes, but that's you, it's not everyone. Not everyone is a competent computer user capable of logging onto a forum and asking the right question, and that's even before they get around to implementing a fix for it. You repeatedly mention recompiling the kernel, something that's beyond the vast majority of normal computer users. The 7 sins link above mentions windows being intalled as a matter of course on PCs, well that's because most users want Windows installed. They don't want to take a machine home and spend 2 hours installing an OS/drivers/apps/whatever, they want to go home double click on the 'internet button' and go to facebook or whatever.

Yes there are strengths to open source and free software, but the lack of centralisation is a serious issue for mission critical apps. If I am a business user that relies on a piece of software, I need to know that if an issue arises I can be on the phone to the developer and get it fixed there and then and yes I am willing to pay for that ability. I don't want to leave a message on a forum somewhere in the hope that someone will fix it sometime, or have to have devlopment staff on my team incase something arises.

Both idealogies have their strengths and weaknesses and there's no reason both cannot co-exist happily. But stuff like that 7 sins thing is doing no one any favours.

You repeatedly mention recompiling the kernel, something that's beyond the vast majority of normal computer users.

yes. this is why there exist operating systems that do this for you. this has numerous disadvantages, but still - you won't have to do it. they do it for you.

...most users want Windows installed. They don't want to take a machine home and spend 2 hours installing an OS/drivers/apps/whatever, they want to go home double click on the 'internet button' and go to facebook or whatever.

no they do in fact not want Windows installed. they just want to use Facebook. they don't care whether it's Windows or Slackware or Solaris or Haiku. as long as they can go to Facebook. why do you think a computer with Windows is "working"? why do you think you don't have to install drivers/apps/whatever? it's because the hardware vendors did it for you. if they did the same thing with another operating system, you most likely wouldn't care if you had Facebook ready.

Yes there are strengths to open source and free software, but the lack of centralisation is a serious issue for mission critical apps. If I am a business user that relies on a piece of software, I need to know that if an issue arises I can be on the phone to the developer and get it fixed there and then and yes I am willing to pay for that ability. I don't want to leave a message on a forum somewhere in the hope that someone will fix it sometime, or have to have devlopment staff on my team incase something arises.

then you may choose to use Free Software that has support? most do. Red Hat is an excellent example.

Both idealogies have their strengths and weaknesses and there's no reason both cannot co-exist happily.

there are no strenghts to proprietary software which I can think of. of course there are good proprietary software alternatives - but they are not good simply because they are proprietary.

Personally, I love Football Manager and I always have done, it's the only game I play on because I'm a huge football fan.

I also like a good performance operating system where I have full control over every aspect of it, can customise it how I want to and I don't have to worry about viruses infecting my computer. I use Ubuntu 9.04 as my operating system and I do NOT dual boot and I haven't used Windows as my main operating system for over 5 years now.

I really hope SI branch over to Linux, it's such a pain in the ass working with VirtualBox because you can only assign up to half of your computer's memory to it and as FM uses a lot of memory, the game runs very slow in VirtualBox.

Even if someone at SI puts a really complicated tutorial as to what hacks need doing with Wine or even CrossOver Games to get FM working, I'll take that and do it.

SOME support is far better than NO support, which is what we have now.

And kids, please stop bickering, some people will always prefer a computer that does everything for them and is unsecure and not flexible, whereas others will always prefer the opposite, there's no point in offending each other in the process.

And kids, please stop bickering, some people will always prefer a computer that does everything for them and is unsecure and not flexible, whereas others will always prefer the opposite, there's no point in offending each other in the process.

Windows does not do everything for you. neither does GNU/Linux. however there are tools that automate processes available for both operating environments. personally I think the latter has the best choice of tools though.

and Windows is only as unsecure as the user. so is GNU/Linux operating systems.

first off, I'm not arguing Open Source software but Free Software.

now that that's out of the way: I disagree. the decentralization is in fact a strenght, not a weakness. a lot of Free Software (and Open Source software) do not offer support lines and such, but they weigh it up by being completely free and offering community based help (forums, irc and so on). I would rather log onto #java and ask for help about IcedTea, than call Sun to get help with my Sun Java - to take a fair example.

If you are a corporation, you would want much better support than your boss logging onto a forum, to be honest.

Small open source/free software programs generally have inappropriate support teams for a corporate environment. Corporations are willing to pay for much better support and products and this money can be used to make better teams.

Lots of companies have relationships with Sun and bypass the free help as they can get an analyst on the floor to help the company straight away.

If you are a corporation, you would want much better support than your boss logging onto a forum, to be honest.

hence the choice of choosing software vendors with support lines.

Small open source/free software programs generally have inappropriate support teams for a corporate environment. Corporations are willing to pay for much better support and products and this money can be used to make better teams.

businesses geneerally don't use small programs. they use packages of programs. they can get this with support without any trouble.

Lots of companies have relationships with Sun and bypass the free help as they can get an analyst on the floor to help the company straight away.

just like some have relationships with Red Hat or Novell. this is not a strenght of proprietary software, it's a strenght of having a big name.

Having worked in a business, I can confirm that this is not the case - plenty of small programs are widely used.

Even the likes of Firefox - you'd think it's easy to introduce this to a company? Not at all!

Having worked in a business, I can confirm that this is not the case - plenty of small programs are widely used.

Even the likes of Firefox - you'd think it's easy to introduce this to a company? Not at all!

yes. you use plenty of small programs. not one small program. if you have e.g. a Red Hat set up, Red Hat will give you support on all of the small programs.

The newest VirtualBox (http://www.virtualbox.org/) has experimental 3D acceleration support.

I successfully run FM2009 using a Windows XP Virtual Machine on Ubuntu 9.04 AMD64. The 3D match engine doesn't work, but the classic 2D dots work flawlessly.

Same here.

I would suggest that since FM will probably never be made for Linux, why not do something that will make it easier to run with wine or steam or something just to help us out? Since Miles says never for Linux, basically, maybe help by showing us some viable options. It wouldn't hurt your business to know that thousands of Linux users will buy the game if you offer some suggestions as to how to make it run probably with WINE or Cedega or any other assistant.

yes. you use plenty of small programs. not one small program. if you have e.g. a Red Hat set up, Red Hat will give you support on all of the small programs.

I didn't use multiple Red Hat programs. They were free Java programs related to XML, and I used multiple programs by different sets of programmers. In fact, Sun Java aside, I didn't touch anything made by a big free software vendor at all.

The idea that packages are heavily used are also erroneous - all companies are constantly upgrading and tying themselves down to packages is suicide as different parts of this package will evolve at different times. The exception is, of course, Microsoft Office/Exchange/Windows for good reason.

I've said this each time that it's brought up, but there are no plans for us to support Linux now, or in the forseeable future.

Testing the game on the operating systems that the game is available on already takes a huge amount of investment and time. Adding more operating systems (and there are many variations of Linux) into this process, plus the post release support that would be needed, is simply not a viable option as a business or as a developer, let alone the actual cost to convert and develop.

There are lots of ways to get the game working for those on Linux OS', and they are well documented, so the option is there for those users, just like they have the option whether to use Linux or any of it's flavours. However, we do not offer support for those options, as we haven't tested them, nor are we about to.

thanks for your time. /thread

If you need support for FM with linux, FMTux (an affiliates community) is there for you to help you installing and playing FM on linux ! Join us on www.fmtux.net ! This community is for english speaking and french speaking peoples

Does everything work? I think I read somewhere the facegens don't work with linux.

Tried to read a guide over there btw a while back. It was incredibly long, and it looked damn difficult to pull this off. Not for the "common man" that's for sure

The facegen works very well... did you read our wiki ? http://www.fmtux.net/wiki/doku.php?id=en:fm2010:installer_et_jouer_a_fm2010

@IndieTrash:

Hmmm...

You seem to indicate that you believe that all proprietary software is the devil's work (I know you didn't actually say that but that seems to be the point you're trying to get across) and even go as far as to say "proprietary software robs you off your basic computer freedoms"

Why then are you on here trying to get what is (as far as I can tell) proprietary software(FM10) to work on your computer? - is your belief selective? - the only reason I ask is because you make your argument so vigourously.

Although I feel I should add that the idea of open source appeals to me very much and I like the idea of the GNU/Linux operating systems.

I think it is not the place to argue about proprietary/open source programs... This topic is about FM support for linux users... SI doesn't it but passionate people will make every effort to help... That is what we try to offer on fmtux, including being affiliated to SI...

The facegen works very well... did you read our wiki ? http://www.fmtux.net/wiki/doku.php?id=en:fm2010:installer_et_jouer_a_fm2010

I just installed Linux Mint 8 now, and tried to install wine. But I didn't even get that thing going. Never mind getting far enough to do this new guide of yours.

I'm sure I got wine to work on Mint 7, so don't know what went awry this time around. It just doesn't show up anywhere. A "Wine" category is added to the menu, but it's empty.

I then tried to install wine-doors, and that seemed to work, but i've no idea how to use that thing. And now it seems to be F'ed up already.

Could you explain very carefully how to install wine and get it to work so I can go through with your guide, using Linux Mint 8?