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View Full Version : Players declining when past 30. What do you think?



krikkert
22-09-2009, 16:54
Someone agree with me that players very often "decline" too fast in FM ?

Tips often shown on load screens in the game says that strikers usually reach their peak between 26 and 31 and defenders between 27 and 32 (if I remember correctly and has got it spot on) etc. And this is all good I think.

However, personally I think that as soon as a player gets past that age, say a defender that reaches 32, then his stats starts dropping and he's declining too fast. Perhaps not always, but very often. Already the next season I see great players finding themselves out of the team, replaced by some younger player recently bought in. I mean, that players start declining at some point is only natural, I just think that they often do so too fast. If someone's among the best players out there in his position it should take time for him to decline. He might start declining a bit at 32 but he should still be a very good player at 34 or even 35, often good enough to retain his place in the team too. SOMETIMES they're even older than that although they might be singing on the last verse when past 35...

To me this doesn't seem to be the case as much with players already past their prime-period set by the game when you start your first season as those who passes that prime-age 1 or 2 seasons (or more) into the game. Then my experience is that they tend to just suddenly loose their stats too quickly and go from being really great players to become more bench-warmers almost over night in a team where they were just recently considered indispensable.

I like to see the good old familiar football names remain a vital part of their teams for many seasons into the game. Too many changes in other teams in my league too fast ends up alienating the teams a bit, at least to me personally and I might end up playing for only 2-3 seasons before I stop playing.. I mean, there's no reason that players like Rio Ferdinand, Jamie Carragher, Frank Lampard, just to mention a few who are all past thirty shouldn't be able to retain their place in their respective teams till they're 35 years of age, because they are that good. Those were just a few examples of course. There are many players who are good enough or could be good enough in their mid-thrities for their clubs.

So for my part, when players start to "decline" at about 31-32 it would be nice if they generally did so more gradually, over time, a little bit slower. I always find myself hoping that the veteran players (30 years and upwards) will remain essential to their teams for several more seasons, even those who play for my team's most bitter rivals. It's more fun then in my opinion with more familiar names. And it's not at all unusual that players retain their places in a team, even in a top team till their mid-thirties.

Anyone agrees with me?

I remember playing Pro-cycling manager once, and in the game-editor there, one could decide when each rider would start declining by typing his "decline age". That was a nice feature. Wouldn't it be cool to see in FM ?

So am i the only one who thinks about this, or does someone agree with me that when players start declining they very often do so too quickly...?

AcidBurn
22-09-2009, 17:03
It used to happen too much on FM08 but on FM09 players seem to stay good for too long. Players such as Torres, Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldo and so on can still score 25 or more goals a season when they are 36 years old.

I read recently read a post where someone said that natural fitness is the stat that determines how quickly a player will decline in stats as they age.

I think putting a stat in the editor is not a good idea as no one knows when a player will start to decline. Sometimes it can happen quickly and other times some players can last alot longer than people expect.

viola29
22-09-2009, 17:04
When you look at Scholes and Giggs, they're not the players they were 5 years ago. And as for in-game, A 33 year old Fernando Torres just scored 29 goals in the league for my Man City team. Doesn't seem like he's decling to fast. :P

Kenco
22-09-2009, 17:08
I agree with the OP, players who start the game at 36 or more can have reasonable physical stats which then decline, whereas players who start the game in their late twenties never seem to have the physical stats at 36 that those original players had. I was thinking about this myself a few days ago and was going to do some research on it, but couldn't really be bothered!

tomtuck01
22-09-2009, 17:15
They certainly seem to have found it difficult finding a happy medium between the two in the last couple of FM versions. FM08 saw players like Alessandro Del Piero rendered useless after 9-12months, yet as you have already said AcidBurn, players in FM09 perform brilliantly well into their 30's, sometimes even after they have hit 35.

The best example I can think of from a game of mine was when I lead to England to the World Cup final in 2014 with players like Steven Gerrard, Rio Ferdinand, Frank Lampard, (and a few others of todays team), were still making up the majority of the starting XI. We lost 3-2 to Brazil, but that is beside the point.

demodave
22-09-2009, 17:26
to be honset, I dont think the issue is with declining players but with how the AI managers handle them, it seems that as soon as players goes past peak age the AI manager completely and utterly disregards them. I have seen many a 33+ player who still has very good physical stats and good enough stats to be playing in the league they are in but yet are in the reserves with out so much as a single subsistute appearance to there name.

But then again there loss is my gain, I have found them very useful has short term replacements weather for use in the first team or as back up to a young player who needs a break very now and again because of draw backs of playing a teenager in the first team (feeling pressure of expectation, rollacoster morale etc.) There usually available for next to nothing if not nothing and prepared to take a pay cut to play sometimes a massive one too

trekman
22-09-2009, 17:42
When you look at Scholes and Giggs, they're not the players they were 5 years ago.

Don't really have an opinion about Scholes but I have to disagree with you about Giggs. Have you seen him recently? He'll be 36 this November but imo he's playing better than most players 10 years his junior. If they could reflect this properly in the game then I think this would be great. As a pundit mentioned on match of the day at the weekend I too would like to know what he has for breakfast. Perhaps he can give some of it to me!

AcidBurn
22-09-2009, 17:51
Giggs might be a better player mentally than ever, technically he is still as good as he has ever been but physically he is much much slower than he was.

hozhoz
22-09-2009, 18:11
Giggs might be a better player mentally than ever, technically he is still as good as he has ever been but physically he is much much slower than he was.

Well he was a very fast lad, I think he's decling in pace but not in acceleration too much. However, A lot of it will be mental quickness.

I'm really hopeful they've replicated this in this year's edition. Last year's was pretty good for it, yet they kept a little too much technical ability in my opinion.

Marluff
22-09-2009, 18:38
Here's Kaka in 2018. He is far to good in my opinion.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8781/kakazs.jpg

dave byrd
22-09-2009, 19:24
I think that players are far too good late into their 30's on FM 09 but on the other hand they declined too quickly when they hit 30 on previous versions of the game. It's like SI tried to even this out for FM 09 and got it a bit wrong.

viola29
22-09-2009, 19:25
Don't really have an opinion about Scholes but I have to disagree with you about Giggs. Have you seen him recently? He'll be 36 this November but imo he's playing better than most players 10 years his junior. If they could reflect this properly in the game then I think this would be great. As a pundit mentioned on match of the day at the weekend I too would like to know what he has for breakfast. Perhaps he can give some of it to me!
You have a good point there, Giggs is playing differently to how he was 5 years ago, mainly because of a role change. If FM could incorporate role switches as players got older it would be a nice feature.

cezar.sl
22-09-2009, 20:33
Depends on Natural Fitness and Stamina.
A player with high values in those areas will continues to play well in their 30s.

tomtuck01
22-09-2009, 22:16
And as has already been said, "determination" is also a factor.

krikkert
22-09-2009, 22:59
[QUOTE=demodave;3911036]to be honset, I dont think the issue is with declining players but with how the AI managers handle them, it seems that as soon as players goes past peak age the AI manager completely and utterly disregards them. I have seen many a 33+ player who still has very good physical stats and good enough stats to be playing in the league they are in but yet are in the reserves with out so much as a single subsistute appearance to there name.


I think you might have a point there. "Great players around 33+ with very good stats getting disregarded by the AI managers", which again results in them buying new players in their positions and replacing them even though the these veteran players still seem to be better players and could remain top players for 2 or 3 more years.
My experience however is still that players decline too suddenly all too often.

I see some people have had the opposite experience that I have had with FM 09, that players remain good too long, this surprises me, however I see someone mentioning players like Gerrard and Lampard playing for England in the WC in 2014, tbh it wouldn't surprise me the slightest if these two players still are first choices for England in the 2014 WC (the real world cup that is). Those two were probably not the best examples to make your case as they are both among the 4-5 best players in the world. :p

Callumth
22-09-2009, 23:02
I think there just needs to be a development of certain stats. Beckham, for instance, is far better in CM on the game even though he is listed as being best as a right midfielder for the simple reason that he doesn't have the pace anymore. Players like wingers should develop better mental skills and passing abilities so that they can become playmakers later on in the game, like Giggs. With strikers, you'd have to look at someone like Owen, who doesn't have the pace anymore but will (hopefully!) score lots for United this season because his composure, finishing, and movement have gotten so much better.

tomtuck01
22-09-2009, 23:07
however I see someone mentioning players like Gerrard and Lampard playing for England in the WC in 2014, tbh it wouldn't surprise me the slightest if these two players still are first choices for England in the 2014 WC (the real world cup that is). Those two were probably not the best examples to make your case as they are both among the 4-5 best players in the world. :p
When Gerrard is 34 and Lampard 36 in 2014 you think they will both still be main-stays of the England national team? I'd be massively surprised, (and worried), if that proved to be the situation.

So yes, they were probably the best players to make my case.

krikkert
22-09-2009, 23:07
Depends on Natural Fitness and Stamina.
A player with high values in those areas will continues to play well in their 30s.


Hm... I didn't know that. Knowing that now could be useful :D Raising these stats on some players who play for my rivals and also other teams in my league and perhaps even other important teams in europe could perhaps then make them stick around a little bit longer and retain their places in their teams longer, making the game more fun, at least for my part.

I hope you're right about these stats ;)

krikkert
22-09-2009, 23:18
When Gerrard is 34 and Lampard 36 in 2014 you think they will both still be main-stays of the England national team? I'd be massively surprised, (and worried), if that proved to be the situation.

So yes, they were probably the best players to make my case.


I'm not saying it will be the case, but it wouldn't surprise me, certainly not, they're both special players. It will be interesting to see then in 5 years ;)

Anyway, although a few individual names have been mentioned here my topic was about players' decline in general, not only certain players

qwertman
22-09-2009, 23:31
they stay good for too long as far as i've noticed.

deltablue
23-09-2009, 00:06
The first one of fairly few to make it that age for me declined by 33 but a few legends I've kept for a while managed a little longer, to 35/6 as the general trend I've seen, which isn't that early.

Serdar
23-09-2009, 10:30
I think this works fine on FM2009. I believe thay made it so that it depends on players personality, traning and maybe first team appereances. I have seen some top players becoming total rubbish already at 32(which may happen IRL) but I have also seen some good players play consistently until 35 (which may also happen IRL). Of course there is always room for improvement but this was one of the right things on latest FM and I hope they wont do radical changes but only minor fixes if needed.

Menz
23-09-2009, 10:57
Its a tough one to call. IRL some players don't even peak until their mid 30's. Zidane for instance, although physically (i.e. speed, movement wise) may have declined from his Juve days, was still as switched on, if not more so, than before. I remember reading an article about an interview with him and he said he felt he was in better condition technically and mentally than before purely because he had to make up for the fact he was losing it physically, although very slightly.

jayahr
23-09-2009, 11:04
I think it's about right now overall. Just maybe some decline too slowly while other decline too fast. But show me the player irl who at 33 is still as good as with 28. The decline must be noticable with the odd exception as irl (thus you don't need to say Maldini now, I know it does exist).

Maybe it would be a possible way to make the decline or its lack a bit less extreme in either way.

Thebaker
23-09-2009, 11:58
Maldini is an exception although AC milan have a history of getting players to carry on at a high standard well into their 30's. Perhaps it should be more likely to happen at some clubs or perhaps physio's should have a attribute to cover this.

DP
23-09-2009, 12:10
daniele de rossi is actually playing better for me now at 36 than he has for the rest of his career. this was supposed to be his last year but he's performing so well i've given him a one year extension.

RBKalle
23-09-2009, 12:29
If anything, aging players do NOT decline that much in FM09 in my opinion.

Their reputation stays the same, their stats do not drop down dramatically, and it's easy ending up with many 35 years old former Top Stars who just won't go away.

The easiest and quickest way to make money is selling all the 30 years olders in your team and replacing them with younger prospects... You'll get good money for the old geezers and you'll get the youngsters for peanuts...

Everlasting players like Giggs are the exception, not the rule

krikkert
25-09-2009, 17:13
Seeing some of the responses in this topic I think perhaps I failed slightly to make my point, which was not players declining in the team *I* am managing, but the other teams in my league and elsewhere in competetions relevant to my team controlled by AI managers. I don't experience this as a problem in my own team..

There was a post made by Demodave previously in this topic who said that the AI managers are the real problem as players around 32-33 often gets disregarded and replaced with younger players even though these 32-33 year old players still are very good players despite having started to decline. And they end up with barely a game to their name throughout the season despite still having stats justifying a place in the first 11. I think he definitely have a point.
My experience with FM is still that players in too many cases decline too fast and suddenly, but maybe Demodave is right that the AI managers is the real problem.

One example I can use from FM 09 is Martin Laursen, Aston Villa. Of course he retired near the end of last season because of injuries, a shame really. But no one could have foreseen that, and in the game he was Aston Villa's best defender by far but once he had passed that peak-age at 32/33, he was placed on the bench by his AI manager and he never played after that, unless all the other players in his position was injured or soemthing. But he was still the BEST defender that Aston Villa had, even after the AI manager had bought in replacements. So he should have have been playing an important role in the team, and the manager had never needed to buy other defenders (which didn't even match Laursen's standard) to replace him.

So yeah, there must be room for improvement on the AI managers too and their team selection / transfer activity.





to be honset, I dont think the issue is with declining players but with how the AI managers handle them, it seems that as soon as players goes past peak age the AI manager completely and utterly disregards them. I have seen many a 33+ player who still has very good physical stats and good enough stats to be playing in the league they are in but yet are in the reserves with out so much as a single subsistute appearance to there name.