Player's stats: Assists are counted wrong. Listen up SI

Having played the FM series year after year when it comes out I think it's time I state my opinion on something that have bothered me more and more and more every year, with every new release.

It's the ASSISTS. Just like probably every other FM enthusiast I love keeping track of my player's stats. Seeing how many games they've played, how many goals have they scored and how many assists have they given, and then comparing their goal-points to the amount of games they've played etc. etc.

But the numbers of assists given by the top-assist-givers both in my own team and the opposite teams are most often ridiculous come the end of the season !!!

And why is this??? It's because every year FM counts assists from everything! If a player is fouled and wins a penalty, and the penalty taker scores - Then this is not counted as an assist in the real world football. But FM gives the fouled player an assist anyway. And if a player shoots, the keeper saves and another player slots the rebound into the net, then the player who shot the first shot is counted in FM as an assist-giver, which is totally wrong. It is not an assist. It is a goal without an assist-giver. Likewise with the penalty. And it's just the same with freekicks. If a player is fouled and your team scores on the following freekick then FM grants an assist to the the player who was fouled. Again, this is wrong. Of course, if it is not a direct freekick, and instead your freekick-taker crosses the ball into the box and a player scores with a header etc. then it should be an assist to the freekick-taker, but when scoring on a direct freekick then the fouled player should NOT be counted as having given an assist. Simply being fouled NEVER means that you have given an assist.

And there's more : If one of my players recieve a pass from, say the left back deep in his own half and then he goes on a crazy solo run dribbling past several opposite players and scores, then hello hello, the left back should not be counted as having given an assist. It was a SOLO effort.

To sum it up, MANY goals are scored without having an assist giver, many of which I have mentioned; penalties, direct freekicks, solo efforts where a player brings himself into scoring position on his very own without recieving a vital/deciding/crucial pass.

Football manager is mostly very realistic, and lots of lots of fun but this have been a weak point for as long as I can remember and I have been a FM player for more than a decade. I really hope that the game developers can see this and try to fix it in this year's release so that the assists becomes realistic, and so that they are counted just like in the real world of football.

It's a very annoying thing, as it is incorrect.

If a player is fouled and wins a penalty, and the penalty taker scores - Then this is not counted as an assist in the real world football. But FM gives the fouled player an assist anyway.

Where are you looking at these real world assists stats?

In the fantasy football league I play, assists do go to players who win penalties.

Look at Sebastian Larsson, he got an assist for winning the penalty that won Birmingham the game 1-0 against Portsmouth.

Definitely see your viewpoint, but from SI's perspective, you can also see why it's easier to credit the last teammate to touch the ball, with an assist in every scenario. Lazy coding? sloppy coding? perhaps. It could be very difficult for the match engine to determine that the fullback shouldn't be credited with an assist after the winger goes on a mazy run and scores.

What criteria should be determined? How far the winger has run with the ball? how far up the pitch he received the pass? the position of the fullback? What if the winger is on the half way line and breaks from a fullbacks pass from the penalty area, he might have a clear run on goal with only the keeper to beat, so should number of players beaten be taken into consideration?

It's a bit odd crediting every goal with an assist, agreed on that point. But you also need to see that from open play, it's not quite so easy determining who gets assists and who doesn't.

If a player is fouled and wins a penalty, and the penalty taker scores - Then this is not counted as an assist in the real world football. But FM gives the fouled player an assist anyway. And if a player shoots, the keeper saves and another player slots the rebound into the net, then the player who shot the first shot is counted in FM as an assist-giver, which is totally wrong. It is not an assist. It is a goal without an assist-giver. Likewise with the penalty.

I disagree with these 2 statements, in real life and pretty much every fantasy football game, these are classed as assists.

I think theyve done it right, I want assists for someone who was brought down in the area or would have had a goal but for it being handled on the line, same goes for shots saved by the keeper.

Are you denying these players helped with the goal?

Actually, reading the Premier League website and Actim who do their statistics, players fouled and awarded Free-kicks or Pens are credited with assists

I'm ready to corrected but as far as I'm aware, in real life there is no such thing as an "official" assist. It is a concept that has been introduced by unofficial organisations to feed football supporters.

Every goal scored will have an official scorer which is recorded by whichever association is in charge of that game but they don't record who provided assists.

It's the same thing with lots of other stats such as possession, shots on/off target etc. The referee is not required to record these details and thus no official record exists, so the definition of these stats is always liable for interpretation.

kenco and Dafuge ; Every fantasy game you've played ? So your responses to my post is simply based on Fantasy games? because you have seen it in other football manager games that means it is simply so?

Whatever the case, it is wrong from a "real world of football" point of view. The game should reflect as best as possible the real world of football.

Where have I seen these kind of stats? All the leagues count these things, and the bigger the league are, the more stat-oriented it probably is. For example, The Premier league keeps very good track of these things, probably more so than any other league I believe, it is very stat-oriented.

Swisso, you make many good points and what you say makes lots of sense, but I think this is something that SI should make an effort to figure out. In open play, I agree, it might be more challenging to make the game engine figure out when to give and not to give an assist to the player with the last pass, but surely it is possible. And to have some sort of boundary is probably better than having none. As for freekicks/penalties etc. these should not be difficult to fix.

I'd classify both of the examples as assists.

I think key passes are a much better and fairer stat though, I wish they'd be recorded over the season as well as or instead of assists.

kenco and Dafuge ; Every fantasy game you've played ? So your responses to my post is simply based on Fantasy games? because you have seen it in other football manager games that means it is simply so?

Whatever the case, it is wrong from a "real world of football" point of view. The game should reflect as best as possible the real world of football.

Where have I seen these kind of stats? All the leagues count these things, and the bigger the league are, the more stat-oriented it probably is. For example, The Premier league keeps very good track of these things, probably more so than any other league I believe, it is very stat-oriented.

That fantasy football league is on the official website of the Premier League and uses stats provided by Actim, who provide the Premier League with their stats. Outside of agencies like Actim and other stats providers, assists are not officially recorded.

Saying that though, some stats providers may decide to record them differently, it just depends which one you want to go with. I think the official statistics for the Premier League is a pretty good one to judge it on.

I'm ready to corrected but as far as I'm aware, in real life there is no such thing as an "official" assist. It is a concept that has been introduced by unofficial organisations to feed football supporters.

Every goal scored will have an official scorer which is recorded by whichever association is in charge of that game but they don't record who provided assists.

It's the same thing with lots of other stats such as possession, shots on/off target etc. The referee is not required to record these details and thus no official record exists, so the definition of these stats is always liable for interpretation.

Agreed, the Premier League and Actim (which record statistics on their behalf) have running tallys of assists on the Premier League website, but i doubt whether we can take that to mean assists are part of the laws of the game. Obviously it's a major decision to make in FM because not every Association around the world and their respective partners will record Assists and it'd be a nuisance to allow assists in some countries and deny them in others.

Easier just to include assists for every country

Does the MLS officially record assists? How do they do it?

I know that in ice hockey the last player to touch the puck automatically gets an assist, is it the same in 'soccer'?

Whatever the case, it is wrong from a "real world of football" point of view. The game should reflect as best as possible the real world of football.

Please explain what you mean by this. The game is reflecting the real world of football, as has been shown above.

Does the MLS officially record assists? How do they do it?

I know that in ice hockey the last player to touch the puck automatically gets an assist, is it the same in 'soccer'?

I doubt theres nothing they don't record

Judging from the official MLS site, they do indeed record assists. I get the impression after watching early morning MLS on Channel 5 years ago that they like to over-analyse games so it doesn't surprise me that they rate assists as a key statistic

Please explain what you mean by this. The game is reflecting the real world of football, as has been shown above.

Theres nothing to explain, hes been proved wrong and the examples he gave are officially assists.

As for hockey, its the last 2 people to touch the puck who get assists, even if it comes back off the goalie.

even if

A passes to B

B passes to C

C passes to B who scores.

Both A and C get assists.

looking at the Actim Index it seems to me, although I am not sure, that they have indeed counted the fouled player earning a penalty as an assist-giver when it results with a goal. if I have been mistaken on that part I have no trouble putting my hands in the air admiting I might have been wrong. But i still know for a fact that many of the other points I pointed out, like someone shooting, seeing the keeper save the shot and another player comes and taps in the rebound doesn't earn the first shooter an assist.

And what has first and foremost made this whole thing an issue is that up to several players in the same team can stand with up to 20 or even more assists come the end of the season in FM and this is somewhat over the top, you know. And that is in addition to the lots of goals they have often scored. Like players having scored 20 + league goals and ALSO having 20 + assists. That's not something you're likely to see in modern football.

Sure, you have maybe 4-5 players out there who is able to contribute with ridiculously many goal-points (goals and assists) in one season. Players like Messi, Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard and maybe just a couple more players. But even they wouldn't make that big an impact, and for sure not year in and year out.

But i still know for a fact that many of the other points I pointed out, like someone shooting, seeing the keeper save the shot and another player comes and taps in the rebound doesn't earn the first shooter an assist.

FIFA used these rules (page18 of the PDF) when they calculated assists during Italia 1990:

1 . The player who was the last to pass to the eventual goalscorer receives an assist point.

2 . In the event that the penultimate pass may have decisively influenced the play leading up to the goal, the player who executed this pass may also be allocated an assist point.

3 . The player whose shot led to the rebound that enabled the goalscorer to successfully complete the action was also granted an assist point .

4. Where goals resulting from penalties are concerned, the player who is fouled in the area receives an assist point (unless, that is, the player who is fouled subsequently executes the penalty himself .)

5 . For goals which are the result of solo efforts (dribbling runs, etc .) no assist points are given.

6. No assist point is allocated in those cases where a goal is scored as the result of a mistake made by the opposing team.

Which covers the rebounded shot saved and falling to another player scenario.

I doubt theres nothing they don't record

Judging from the official MLS site, they do indeed record assists. I get the impression after watching early morning MLS on Channel 5 years ago that they like to over-analyse games so it doesn't surprise me that they rate assists as a key statistic

We Americans love our stats; frankly, I think it's part of the reason the sport's not as widely followed here. There's virtually no statkeeping for footie; we like to break our sports down into ratings and rankings and let those make our arguments for us, whereas soccer's nature doesn't allow for that. Without getting too dull, baseball stats in particular have a cult following amongst the more mathematically inclined; the game is basically a series of one-on-one contests (pitcher vs. hitter), with something like 27 different "states" (i.e., runner on first with one out, runners on first and second with two outs, etc.); once you figure out the proper weighting, it's very much open to analysis through statistics without ever watching a game.

In soccer, the exact opposite is true. There's far more ambiguity with stats, and so it really comes down to watching a match and figuring out who the best is from that. If you watched baseball, the stats folks would be able to tell you what to look for and what's valuable in a player; in soccer, there's no "hard and fast" rules like that, which makes it a little harder for a neophyte to get into. JMHO, of course.

I'd like to see screenshots of where your team has more than 1 player with 20 assists! Without the corner bug, of course.

For perspective, Soccernet has last season's Real Madrid team with 66 assists for 94 goals. Sevilla had 42 assists, 53 goals. Juventus had 53 assists for 81 goals. Manchester United had 82 assists for 114 goals - and this was with the selfish Ronaldo!

So I would not say "many" goals are scored without an assister. It looks more like less than 25%.

And there's more : If one of my players recieve a pass from, say the left back deep in his own half and then he goes on a crazy solo run dribbling past several opposite players and scores, then hello hello, the left back should not be counted as having given an assist. It was a SOLO effort.

Of course the left back should get a assist then just as he would in real life.

less than 25 % could be much. 20 % is much, I would say. But it depends on the eye that sees I suppose.

I would have given a screenshot if I could, but I have no FM game installed so there's no pic to take ... I'm only awaiting FM 2010

I am keeping stats for the Blue Square South this season, and particularly for my favourite team (St. Albans City), and I am counting assists as swisso indicates above. As far as I know, that FIFA definition is still widely used by newspapers/journalist/official stat sites.

If you look up the definition of 'assist' on Wikipedia, you get the same ruling from FIFA for football assists. Read the entry here.

I think FM pretty much has it spot on, except maybe in instances where a player has done it all himself (solo dribble, long-range effort etc.) which are generally recorded as assists on FM and may not be in real life depending upon the perceived impact of the last pass.

Regards,

C.

Maybe the OP should've checked the qualifications for an assist before posting.

MLS includes secondary assists, but doesn't include assists for penalties/free kicks drawn. Like ice hockey, basically.

All the OP's examples are counted as assists in real life.

As to the notion of disaggregating data for soccer much as is done for others sports; I recently read an article where a "power ranking" might theoretically be assigned in soccer for such things as scoring chances, corner kicks, throw-ins in the attacking end, time of possession, etc. I am NOT here to argue the validity of these as a statistical measure. What I find interesting is that it attempts to use the same principles applied by Billy Beane in the book Moneyball (about baseball to the non-Americans) which uses the theory of SABRmetrics to identify statistically robust players who might otherwise slip through the cracks. If this were done for soccer, it would, no doubt, change the way the game was played as players and coaches would begin emphasizing "power" statistics more. That soccer has been able to keep its position above the statistical in-fighting is probably part of its universal appeal. Just a thought...

With regards to the solo run assist, IIRC, an assist only counts if the scorer has taken 3 touches or less before scoring.

"Listen up SI"? How arrogant... you make it sound as if you know more about football than people who have sold literally hundreds of thousands of games about ... yes you guessed it ... football

"Listen up SI"? How arrogant... you make it sound as if you know more about football than people who have sold literally hundreds of thousands of games about ... yes you guessed it ... football

Gotta love the overly-aggressive, arrogant thread title, followed by the completely mistaken description of a non-existant issue, and finally the complete back-track when the facts are explained

Textbook SI forum thread really! What would we do without them?

I had a player passed to about thirty yards out. He ran unopposed and scored. The passer didn't get an assist. I don't know if that would be counted IRL, it's a very specific case because the man didn't actually have to get past any defenders.

Likewise, I believe IRL sometimes you get two assists awarded if a player touches a ball but does not make a significant change in the direction or power of the pass. Both the original passer and the second player would be credited with assists. However, that's an extremely rare occurrence.

krikkert, this issue is simple, really: Assists aren't a real stat. Your 'proper' way to tally a phony stat is no better or worse than Actim's or SI's ways of tallying a phony stat. This isn't ice hockey, where assists are a real stat in the rules of the game, it's soccer, and assists aren't a real thing.

As to the notion of disaggregating data for soccer much as is done for others sports; I recently read an article where a "power ranking" might theoretically be assigned in soccer for such things as scoring chances, corner kicks, throw-ins in the attacking end, time of possession, etc. I am NOT here to argue the validity of these as a statistical measure. What I find interesting is that it attempts to use the same principles applied by Billy Beane in the book Moneyball (about baseball to the non-Americans) which uses the theory of SABRmetrics to identify statistically robust players who might otherwise slip through the cracks. If this were done for soccer, it would, no doubt, change the way the game was played as players and coaches would begin emphasizing "power" statistics more. That soccer has been able to keep its position above the statistical in-fighting is probably part of its universal appeal. Just a thought...

Billy Beane actually does some work for the San Jose Earthquakes, and was a key figure in San Jose's partnership with Tottenham last year; they were presumably going to work on this a little, but the merger happened like a week before Juande Ramos got the sack and hasn't appeared to go anywhere.

If you could find a way to evaluate talent effectively, though, than you'd have the ability to bring in unrecognized players on the cheap to a lower level club; once people figured out what you were doing it'd be over (as was the case with Oakland; once Boston applied the same theories and added their budget it, Oakland's market exploit became the market standard), but you could probably get a bottom table team into the Europa League that way. You could also probably get a team in a less-noticed country to go far in the Champions League, where the exploit would be less noticed because nobody's watching your league.

We Americans love our stats; frankly, I think it's part of the reason the sport's not as widely followed here. There's virtually no statkeeping for footie; we like to break our sports down into ratings and rankings and let those make our arguments for us, whereas soccer's nature doesn't allow for that. Without getting too dull, baseball stats in particular have a cult following amongst the more mathematically inclined; the game is basically a series of one-on-one contests (pitcher vs. hitter), with something like 27 different "states" (i.e., runner on first with one out, runners on first and second with two outs, etc.); once you figure out the proper weighting, it's very much open to analysis through statistics without ever watching a game.

In soccer, the exact opposite is true. There's far more ambiguity with stats, and so it really comes down to watching a match and figuring out who the best is from that. If you watched baseball, the stats folks would be able to tell you what to look for and what's valuable in a player; in soccer, there's no "hard and fast" rules like that, which makes it a little harder for a neophyte to get into. JMHO, of course.

I'm quite a big baseball fan nowadays, and I've been a hockey fan for about 8 years. I enjoy the goal and assist stats in hockey, and basketball for that matter, because they are recorded through a fairly foolproof method. Assists are a big part of rating a player's performance in hockey. In basketball a good assister is easily picked out by the stats, as the assist only goes to the last player who passed the ball to the scorer, in other words, it's a direct assist from one guy to another.

The only stats I really pay attention to with baseball is AVG, HR, RBI, vsLHP, vsRHP, BB, and K for batters, and then ERA, BB, K, H and WHIP for pitchers . I think that broadcasters in general make too much of stats like Slugging Percentage. The number is a direct result of what the player has done, however commentators seem to think that the Slugging Percentage stat governs how good a guy is in a certain situation. It depends on the pitcher's mentality, the pitches he gets, whether or not they are pitching around him or challenging him, if he gets a good swing or not, the list goes on. You might be crap with no runners on base, and then HAPPEN to get hits with runners on base. That doesn't automatically make you a good slugger.

With football, I believe that people have tried to add assists as a legitimate total in order to Americanise it, and that's my honest opinion. To me, goals are the only tally that really needs to be paid attention to. An assist in my opinion is always a subjective category.

For FM purposes, there does need to be some clarification as to what an assist is. I like the stats such as Fouls committed and Fouls against. As long as the stats we are given can give us an accurate picture of the players in question, I think that's all that matters.

With football, I believe that people have tried to add assists as a legitimate total in order to Americanise it, and that's my honest opinion. To me, goals are the only tally that really needs to be paid attention to.

Assists are surely worth paying attention to, as they give an indication of a contribution outside the actual scoring of the goal.

An assist in my opinion is always a subjective category.

Not necessarily. See the FIFA guidelines.

If you have an official panel to make the decision on assists then I don't see the problem in them as a useful stat and indication of attacking player contribution beyond just goal scoring.

It's only really as subjective as decisions made on goals by the dubious goals panel where the scorer of a goal is disputed. Most of the time, it would be pretty clear to identify an assist as per the classification above.

For FM purposes, there does need to be some clarification as to what an assist is.

FM is clearly based on the official FIFA definition.

Regards,

C.

in terms of the game i like assists to reflect any fouls and rebounded shots. it allows you to see which players are involved in the goals and creating chances.

I agree tomfawcett.

I'm quite a big baseball fan nowadays, and I've been a hockey fan for about 8 years. I enjoy the goal and assist stats in hockey, and basketball for that matter, because they are recorded through a fairly foolproof method. Assists are a big part of rating a player's performance in hockey. In basketball a good assister is easily picked out by the stats, as the assist only goes to the last player who passed the ball to the scorer, in other words, it's a direct assist from one guy to another.

The only stats I really pay attention to with baseball is AVG, HR, RBI, vsLHP, vsRHP, BB, and K for batters, and then ERA, BB, K, H and WHIP for pitchers . I think that broadcasters in general make too much of stats like Slugging Percentage. The number is a direct result of what the player has done, however commentators seem to think that the Slugging Percentage stat governs how good a guy is in a certain situation. It depends on the pitcher's mentality, the pitches he gets, whether or not they are pitching around him or challenging him, if he gets a good swing or not, the list goes on. You might be crap with no runners on base, and then HAPPEN to get hits with runners on base. That doesn't automatically make you a good slugger.

Slugging percentage, by itself, isn't really a measure of anything; On Base Plus Slugging (OBS), however, is. You're right to notice the problem (it's the result of one possible positive outcome of an at bat: the hit); adding in the on base percentage, however, corrects that stat (because there's really no difference between a single and a walk in terms of the overall scope of the game).

Same thing with pitching stats; ERA, really, is a flawed measure of a pitcher's talent because it makes the pitcher accountable for things he can't control. Let's say Pitcher A and Pitcher B are equivalent, but Pitcher A's centerfielder is fast and agile while Pitcher B's centerfielder is slow and lumbering. Pitcher A's defensive backing is will mean that his ERA is higher than Pitcher B's even though their ability is identical; it's fine to say that Pitcher B's TEAM is worse than Pitcher A's, but if their DIPS (Defense Independent Pitching Stats) are the same than Pitcher B is going to be undervalued if ERA is the only stat you're using.

Every once in awhile you can apply these stats to soccer, too; last season, during van der Saar's shutout run, it was mentioned that he made very few saves during that time. If the defense was keeping teams from even shooting at him, than those shutouts aren't really a measure of his keeping ability (I think the stat was that Shay Given made more saves in Newcastle's 5-1 loss to Liverpool than van der Saar did through that entire ten game run, but I may be remembering that wrong).

The statistics are one of the reasons I've often considered picking up the baseball version of FM; they're really fascinating, even if the game isn't (as an American, I still don't understand how this became our national pastime; it's about as boring as golf to watch).

If you have an official panel to make the decision on assists then I don't see the problem in them as a useful stat and indication of attacking player contribution beyond just goal scoring.

It's only really as subjective as decisions made on goals by the dubious goals panel where the scorer of a goal is disputed. Most of the time, it would be pretty clear to identify an assist as per the classification above.

I think myself that the advend of the dubious goals panel was a bad idea IRL,it just seems to have lead to the elimination of the own goal. I have often seen goals which are obviously scored because of a deflection off an unknowing defending/attacking player when the player who takes the shot gets the credit. This has happened even in cases where the ball has been deflected from one side of the goal ot the other. It was far better I feel when the Reuters man had the final say on disputed goals.

Back on topic, there are a lot of ways in which to gather assists, changing from association to association. In the MLS Twellerman one year got the golden boot equivalent by one assist which was credited to him for being the attacking player closest and utting pressure on to the player who scored for an own goal from a corner in which he had absolutely no part except he was in the box at the time. So assists have been given for crazy reasons, and the examples the OP lists are mild in comparison.

That doesn't match with the FIFA rules on assists Brian Shanahan, so I can't say why the MLS counted that assist.

See FIFA guidelines above: No assist point is allocated in those cases where a goal is scored as the result of a mistake made by the opposing team.

There is a standard for assists. I have a piece of software that I record my stats on and it won't allow you to give an assist when the goal type is a mistake by the opposing team, as per the FIFA guidelines.

Regards,

C.

That doesn't match with the FIFA rules on assists Brian Shanahan, so I can't say why the MLS counted that assist.

See FIFA guidelines above: No assist point is allocated in those cases where a goal is scored as the result of a mistake made by the opposing team.

There is a standard for assists. I have a piece of software that I record my stats on and it won't allow you to give an assist when the goal type is a mistake by the opposing team, as per the FIFA guidelines.

Regards,

C.

That wouldn't be the first (or most blatant) time MLS didn't follow FIFA standards; they just finally made the decision to not play through the 2010 World Cup, which is the first time that's happened (in years past they've played through; there were even matches scheduled during the 2006 World Cup final). They also used to allow a fourth "keeper only" substitution, and would stop the clock (instead of adding on for injury time at the end).

Slugging percentage, by itself, isn't really a measure of anything; On Base Plus Slugging (OBS), however, is. You're right to notice the problem (it's the result of one possible positive outcome of an at bat: the hit); adding in the on base percentage, however, corrects that stat (because there's really no difference between a single and a walk in terms of the overall scope of the game).

Same thing with pitching stats; ERA, really, is a flawed measure of a pitcher's talent because it makes the pitcher accountable for things he can't control. Let's say Pitcher A and Pitcher B are equivalent, but Pitcher A's centerfielder is fast and agile while Pitcher B's centerfielder is slow and lumbering. Pitcher A's defensive backing is will mean that his ERA is higher than Pitcher B's even though their ability is identical; it's fine to say that Pitcher B's TEAM is worse than Pitcher A's, but if their DIPS (Defense Independent Pitching Stats) are the same than Pitcher B is going to be undervalued if ERA is the only stat you're using.

Every once in awhile you can apply these stats to soccer, too; last season, during van der Saar's shutout run, it was mentioned that he made very few saves during that time. If the defense was keeping teams from even shooting at him, than those shutouts aren't really a measure of his keeping ability (I think the stat was that Shay Given made more saves in Newcastle's 5-1 loss to Liverpool than van der Saar did through that entire ten game run, but I may be remembering that wrong).

The statistics are one of the reasons I've often considered picking up the baseball version of FM; they're really fascinating, even if the game isn't (as an American, I still don't understand how this became our national pastime; it's about as boring as golf to watch).

I'd never really thought of ERA in that way. But when you think about it, the defense has a big impact on it. I was playing MLB The Show today, and my shortstop made two consecutive errors, plus another one which I thought was an error, from which the opposition managed to score 2 runs. Ricky Nolasco's ERA will have suffered, especially from the one that went of the SS' glove that he should have fielded. While the errors won't have impacted on his ERA, the runs scored as a consequence of them.

That's why I like the WHIP (walks and hits per inning pitched) stat for pitchers, because it is a figure of tangible measures that can't be disputed, walks and hits. This is usually a good indicator, because I guy could be giving up no walks or loads of hits, or vice versa, but a really good pitcher will give up less of both.

It is a fair point about Van der Sar's run of clean sheets, and I'd compare it to a baseball team only pitching to a guy like Pujols when there is nobody on base, and walking him the other times.

In reponse to Crouchaldinho, I said that I don't think assists really mean a lot in real life football, just the games to help you track your performance. I don't think football needs a 'most assists' trophy to go with the golden boot or whatever.

krikkert, this issue is simple, really: Assists aren't a real stat. Your 'proper' way to tally a phony stat is no better or worse than Actim's or SI's ways of tallying a phony stat. This isn't ice hockey, where assists are a real stat in the rules of the game, it's soccer, and assists aren't a real thing.

That pretty much sums up what I was trying to say, but I missed the post when I read through earlier.

Assists should be in FM, but they are not NEEDED in real football.

Why are they not needed in real football? I think assists are fine as a stat to give some measurement to attacking contribution.

It's not a 'phony' stat either. There are official guidelines from FIFA.

It's a perfectly valid stat in real life and one that I keep track of in my Blue Square South statistics.

Regards,

C.

I'd never really thought of ERA in that way. But when you think about it, the defense has a big impact on it. I was playing MLB The Show today, and my shortstop made two consecutive errors, plus another one which I thought was an error, from which the opposition managed to score 2 runs. Ricky Nolasco's ERA will have suffered, especially from the one that went of the SS' glove that he should have fielded. While the errors won't have impacted on his ERA, the runs scored as a consequence of them.

That's why I like the WHIP (walks and hits per inning pitched) stat for pitchers, because it is a figure of tangible measures that can't be disputed, walks and hits. This is usually a good indicator, because I guy could be giving up no walks or loads of hits, or vice versa, but a really good pitcher will give up less of both.

It is a fair point about Van der Sar's run of clean sheets, and I'd compare it to a baseball team only pitching to a guy like Pujols when there is nobody on base, and walking him the other times.

In reponse to Crouchaldinho, I said that I don't think assists really mean a lot in real life football, just the games to help you track your performance. I don't think football needs a 'most assists' trophy to go with the golden boot or whatever.

DIPS (there are several of them) are a little more accurate than WHIPS because hits can also be subjective based on the relative skill of a fielder. In fact, sometimes errors also lie; getting to the ball is half the battle, after all, and if a player's positioning is correct but he makes a technical error it's still a sign that he did the right thing.

For the DIPS numbers, usually only walks, batters hit, and home runs are taken into account; everything that happens once a ball is hit then becomes the responsibility of the fielders, and it's had a little more success than WHIPS at analyzing pitchers.

Where this really comes in (and, honestly, I think top managers at least have someone who's doing some sort of stat work, even if they aren't talking about it; the amount of money thrown at transfers is far too high to not have every possible element looked at) is where you're either comparing two players or comparing price. If Pitcher A and Pitcher B are roughly the same on DIPS, but Pitcher B's outfield sucks and his ERA and WHIPS are high, chances are Pitcher B will cost less (either in salary or in trade value). If Pitcher B costs less than Pitcher A but is essentially the same pitcher according to independent stats, than you've identified a market inefficiency that you can exploit.

And if this is at all interesting, you should read "Moneyball"; it's a fascinating book, whether you like baseball or not (I don't, actually, but the statistical side is endlessly fascinating).

Why are they not needed in real football? I think assists are fine as a stat to give some measurement to attacking contribution.

It's not a 'phony' stat either. There are official guidelines from FIFA.

It's a perfectly valid stat in real life and one that I keep track of in my Blue Square South statistics.

Regards,

C.

Ok fair enough you do have a good point.

Why are they not needed in real football? I think assists are fine as a stat to give some measurement to attacking contribution.

It's not a 'phony' stat either. There are official guidelines from FIFA.

It's a perfectly valid stat in real life and one that I keep track of in my Blue Square South statistics.

Regards,

C.

The guidelines from FIFA relate to recording assists at a World Cup. They did this to increase interest/publicity etc.

Do FIFA record every assist made in every international, as they do for goals? No.

If you wanted to know who is the most capped player in history or who has scored the most international goals you could find out via official FIFA channels.

If you wanted to know who has provided the most assists in history (or even since 1990, as this is when the guidelines you refer to came out), you couldn't find the answer as there's no official record.

Whilst the Premier League collect assist data (which is collected on their behalf by an outside company), this does not make it an "official" statistic. They also collect possession %; shots on target; shots off target etc, all of which are to greater or lesser degree subjective. I don't see anyone claiming these are "official" so why should assists be any different?

The only "official" stats in football are:

Goals scored (and scorers)

Yellow cards

Red cards.

These are the stats that are fed back by the referee to the association responsible for running that game (note, in England the association responsible for running the game and feeding into UEFA/FIFA is the FA not the Premier League - an important difference), any other stat is therefore subject to be interpreted in different ways by different organisations/individuals who choose to collect them.

The guidelines from FIFA relate to recording assists at a World Cup. They did this to increase interest/publicity etc.

Do FIFA record every assist made in every international, as they do for goals? No.

If you wanted to know who is the most capped player in history or who has scored the most international goals you could find out via official FIFA channels.

If you wanted to know who has provided the most assists in history (or even since 1990, as this is when the guidelines you refer to came out), you couldn't find the answer as there's no official record.

Whilst the Premier League collect assist data (which is collected on their behalf by an outside company), this does not make it an "official" statistic. They also collect possession %; shots on target; shots off target etc, all of which are to greater or lesser degree subjective. I don't see anyone claiming these are "official" so why should assists be any different?

The only "official" stats in football are:

Goals scored (and scorers)

Yellow cards

Red cards.

These are the stats that are fed back by the referee to the association responsible for running that game (note, in England the association responsible for running the game and feeding into UEFA/FIFA is the FA not the Premier League - an important difference), any other stat is therefore subject to be interpreted in different ways by different organisations/individuals who choose to collect them.

The point I was trying to make is that it is a perfectly valid stat, which the international governing body of association football (FIFA) have defined with a widely accepted criteria used in the majority of cases, as far as I am aware.

The Actim brand collect statistics on behalf of the Premier League and would appear to doing so according to the FIFA criteria. Equally, the stats are collected by Actim for the Football League and the Scottish League.

As you point out, FIFA officially record assists at the World Cup. Whether they started to do this for publicity or, more likely, because it is an interesting stat with which to judge attacking contribution, is irrelevant. Furthermore, a number of top European leagues record assists, with the French league (Ligue 1) even having an award for the player with the most assists. As far as I know, they use the accepted FIFA definition.

You make a valid point that assists aren't 'official' in the same way as the essential statistics that are fed back to the FA in England, for instance, regarding goals scored and disciplinary matters. However, my point is that the definition of the assist is commonly accepted and widely recorded in the modern game. It is a useful statistic and one that should be represented in Football Manager, where the current definition in the game matches with the widely accepted criteria as defined by FIFA and which is used in the majority of cases.

Regards,

C.

The point I was trying to make is that it is a perfectly valid stat, which the international governing body of association football (FIFA) have defined with a widely accepted criteria used in the majority of cases, as far as I am aware.

The Actim brand collect statistics on behalf of the Premier League and would appear to doing so according to the FIFA criteria. Equally, the stats are collected by Actim for the Football League and the Scottish League.

As you point out, FIFA officially record assists at the World Cup. Whether they started to do this for publicity or, more likely, because it is an interesting stat with which to judge attacking contribution, is irrelevant. Furthermore, a number of top European leagues record assists, with the French league (Ligue 1) even having an award for the player with the most assists. As far as I know, they use the accepted FIFA definition.

You make a valid point that assists aren't 'official' in the same way as the essential statistics that are fed back to the FA in England, for instance, regarding goals scored and disciplinary matters. However, my point is that the definition of the assist is commonly accepted and widely recorded in the modern game. It is a useful statistic and one that should be represented in Football Manager, where the current definition in the game matches with the widely accepted criteria as defined by FIFA and which is used in the majority of cases.

Regards,

C.

I agree that it is a useful stat, and I agree that FM should follow the definition outlined by FIFA.....

....so it looks like we're in agreement!

I agree that it is a useful stat, and I agree that FM should follow the definition outlined by FIFA.....

....so it looks like we're in agreement!

Jolly good.

Regards,

C.

You're all wrong - listen up guys. *flex*

Where are you looking at these real world assists stats?

In the fantasy football league I play, assists do go to players who win penalties.

Look at Sebastian Larsson, he got an assist for winning the penalty that won Birmingham the game 1-0 against Portsmouth.

Agreed. The fouled player does get an assist in every official statistic I know.