Wizard Tactics Vs Sliders - Step in the wrong direction?

Is going to a PRE set tactics option a step in the wrong direction for FM? Didn't we have a similar system in previous games and it evolved into a slider options? (Could be wrong).

Having a slider system means you could define how each player plays eg how attacking or defensive a player plays on a scale of 1 - 20. Now it seems that you can only set a player on 5 pre set scale. I was so used to having the sliders as a 100% rule, so setting a player on 8 clicks means I want that player to play 40% defensive and 60% attacking mentality.

Also does the formation setting have a custom formation where I can have say the wingers on to Attacking wingers position and the full backs on to wing backs? Or is everything preset?

It's not really versus, the sliders are still available and you don't have to use the wizard.

Seems to me the tactics wizard is just a layer on the slider system. So it's actually just the same, but made a bit easier to understand.

everything is fully customisable after you have used the tactics wizard. I use Football manager live and its on there and it is easy to use teams play the way you want too.

In my opinion, it is definately the way to go.

You can still use the old slider system if you dislike the new tactics crator which in my opinion is awesome

You can either use the slider system or the tactic creator, so its a step forward.

IMO definately a step in the right direction.

The pre-set tactics in all previous versions I found to be too rigid and not what I wanted. I have also heard they didn't function that well.

Then we moved to sliders which was good and gave us plenty of options but was too complicated for many users, including some who understood football but had difficulty transferring that knowledge into "slider speak."

The wizard just changes the way we communicate with the sliders which should make things clearer and easier for users to understand. It should also minimise the conflicts between different instructions that have been seen by many over the last couple of versions.

I see so the sliders are still there. Expect they put a wizard on top of it. So I presume the wizards create the tactics for you and you can individually set the sliders accordingly ?

Is going to a PRE set tactics option a step in the wrong direction for FM? Didn't we have a similar system in previous games and it evolved into a slider options? (Could be wrong).

Having a slider system means you could define how each player plays eg how attacking or defensive a player plays on a scale of 1 - 20. Now it seems that you can only set a player on 5 pre set scale. I was so used to having the sliders as a 100% rule, so setting a player on 8 clicks means I want that player to play 40% defensive and 60% attacking mentality.

Also does the formation setting have a custom formation where I can have say the wingers on to Attacking wingers position and the full backs on to wing backs? Or is everything preset?

Yes I think fine tuning via the Wizard only gives 5 increments instead of the 20 slider increments, but:

A/ It prevents (in theory!) contradictions that break the user made tactic at a tweak

B/ Sliders are still there for those that feel they give more control (I felt they gave less "usable" control).

I would ask, if you set up a wizard tactic, which as indicated would be "smoothed"/ "wwfan'd" to work without being "broken" at creation, if you then went under the bonnet to tweak one or two sliders that may make an even better tactic but how many tweaks could it take to render this new tactic broken?, in other words, how "adjustable" by slider tweaking is a wizard-created tactic?. I think, and hope, with wizard I will NEVER use sliders again - I really dont want to!

I see so the sliders are still there. Expect they put a wizard on top of it. So I presume the wizards create the tactics for you and you can individually set the sliders accordingly ?

Yes the wizard sits as a layer on top of the sliders which seem to be fairly much the same as last year with maybe a couple of additions.

You go through a series of options on the wizard (layout of formation, style of formation etc) and the wizard then sets the sliders to the correct positions for the options you have chosen.

You can then micro-manage the slider settings if you wish.

Just take a look at the latest blog thread (day 7) - people are talking about football, not settings. It cannot possibly be a step back if you can achieve that.

I think it's wrong to call it a wizard in some ways - it's a new User Interface that allows you to choose slider settings based on your footballing answers to some footballing questions, essentially.

My experience of it in FML is that it produces a rounded, balanced tactic to the manager's specifications that can then be very easily and quickly tweaked for specific matches/scenarios.

It is in no way comparable to the old presets. And you can fully customise tactics still - if you want to vary from the formations listed, you can do that. If you want to adjust the sliders after the UI has set them, you can do that (though I've not touched them once since getting the new UI in FML). If you want to ignore the new UI altogether and continue as in the old days - you can do that.

It cannot be considered a step back or in a wrong direction in any way at all, on any level.

The example in the OP about mentalities - the player mentalities will most likely be set by a combination of the team instructions, the player roles, the player duties and then adjusted by any shouts made. Saying that it is on some preset 5 point scale is garbage - it's on the same old scale it always was. The UI will just choose the slider notch logically, rather than by licking a finger and sticking it in the air like I used to have to.

It's like saying 2D vs 3D. Well both are available, so arguing the case for why one is better than the other is pretty much a redundant issue. You use whichever you enjoy most. But for the record I'll bet any money most people will use the creator and never look back.

The Wizard Tactics is the application of Tactical Theorems and Frameworks in game

So,a player assigned to,let's say 'Complete Forward'Role will have the exact same settings as ones included in TTF 09 Specialist Position' Theories

I think this is a very good idea, many people did not fully understand the sliders and how they worked even I was one of them until I spent a lot of time studying and figuring out how each slider worked. (This was not fun at all for me and felt like a burden)

With this new system it will be much more easier for people who don’t want to spend too much time on the sliders but still could develop a strong effective tactic for their team.

And for people who still want to use the sliders that will also be availible. so no problem there.

The Wizard Tactics is the application of Tactical Theorems and Frameworks in game

So,a player assigned to,let's say 'Complete Forward'Role will have the exact same settings as ones included in TTF 09 Specialist Position' Theories

I would doubt it very much - there have been plenty of posts by wwfan, millie, PaulC etc stating that TT&F09 was only the starting point and that the UI has undergone a lot of changes and development since then.

I've certainly used both TT&F09 and the new UI in FML to try and create similar tactics - and with very different results. The FML-UI tactics were far better.

Well, I'm in favour of the wizard because it can add a layer of honest ambiguity - i.e. with sliders you can tweak it exactly; from the look of it with the wizard, the slider setting can be more imprecise and maybe that'll allow a range of other factors to come into play.

Now, maybe that's not the case...but IMO putting some in a position and giving them orders - and then having them not quite do what you think they should - is more realistic than saying 'Right, you've got this slider set to there but this one set to there, so you do this and that AT ALL TIMES'.

Even a passing acquaintance with football IRL will show you that the game isn't so precise (viz. Capello doing his nut on the touchline early in the 2nd half vs. Croatia, his look of disgust at the lapses in defence, etc).

Football Manager = yes.

Football Micro-manager = no.

If I want stroppiness over the least little thing and analysis of the tiniest facet of detail in how a certain action is performed, I'll go and work for my old boss.

After what I've read about the "Tactics Wizard" I regard it as a step in the right direction. I have in the past had trouble myself understanding the exact function of each tactic slider. When I buy FM10, I'll still use the sliders to fine-tune my strategy, but I'll create my tactic through use of the Wizard. Sometimes I previously felt like I was just guessing what part of my tactics to change when my team were going through a bad patch for eg. I didn't really know what the outcome of that specific tactic change would be. Now however I believe this should happen much less often.

Thank you SI for the 'Tactics Wizard!'

I think its a positive move to being more user friendly and frankly more realistic. After all does Fergie say to Berbatov, "look I want you to drop off the front man and roam" or does he say Berba - "come here I've made you a list of things to do out of 20 for your mentality, creative freedom so you know what to do today". I think the former. It sounds to me that it will feel more like being a football manager again.

I also believe that it will mean you have more time to focus on other things which previously you (I certainly did) may have ignored due to already focusing on your own team's tactics - notably what the opposition is doing and I believe because of this it will make us more realistic (and better) managers as we'll react to the opposition more.

This brings me onto a couple of additional things I'd like to see in FM - firstly, the ability to see, in a little more (but not total) detail, the oppositions tactics. Currently all you can see is formation. But surely it is realistic for you to be able to see team instructions (not sliders but from teh new "wizard") so you know if they are playing long ball, tioght marking etc. Further depth could be added by you ebing able to see certain players instructions for the previous game if you have sent a scout and looked at that player (or a few of them - but there is no way a single scout could glean player instructions for the whole team - maybe on 2 or 3).

Secondly, and a little more off topic here - the pre-set instructions I would like to be able to set up a player - take C Ronaldo as an example and set his default player instructions and save them. Then do the same for Park Ji Sung. Then when I swap them I can easily change player instructions as we all know you need to as these players play in a different way and perform different functions for the team.

Definately on the side of Wizard here.

Building tactics shouldn't be about building one tactic or a set that works (or downloading), it should be tweaking constantly to focus on your strengths and the oppositions weaknesses. The wizard makes this possible for the lazy amongst us.

For the first FM in years I'm really looking forward to the tactics side of the game.

Wizard/User Interface/Tactic Creator, its in football language and more complete.

Sliders are mechanic, and managers dont talk to players writing sliders in a notebook and telling them to attack this much, close down this much,etc... Definitely a step in the right direction and Im reeeeaaaalllly looking forward to it.

I'm looking forward to the wizard. I had nightmares with those damn sliders and found it far to much of a chore to set up tactics when I wanted to be scouring the earth for undiscovered talent, hopefully this brings back some of the fun element of the game for me.

I have been following the blogs from day 1. I have not seen that Miles' said slider-settings will be gone. As long as I can do the fine tuning using sliders, I am happy with it. Wizard is fine for those people who otherwise don't dare to make their own tactics and download others' tactics to play.

I would say this is an welcome move.

They need to tone down the importance of tactics (and tone down the power of the morale/motivation system even more, it is a completely broken system). In reality the team with the better players will succeed more often than not.

As it is now it feels like you are playing small puzzle mini-games in regards to tactics and motivation. It is cumbersome and unintuitive, both the theory behind it and the implementation.

If the wizard manages to produce a suitably potent tactic in an easy way, it is a big step forward. I mean, I want a 4-4-2, how bloody advanced does it have to be for it to be a decent way to play football and no, I don't want to create a separate formation to handle the hulk-like rush my opponent makes the last 20 minutes. That thing is just stupid also.

The brokenness of the systems is the reason people chase after super tactics, just to avoid having to bother with the messy system in the first place.

I think its a positive move to being more user friendly and frankly more realistic. After all does Fergie say to Berbatov, "look I want you to drop off the front man and roam" or does he say Berba - "come here I've made you a list of things to do out of 20 for your mentality, creative freedom so you know what to do today". I think the former. It sounds to me that it will feel more like being a football manager again.

I need people to stop using this example, it makes me want to throw up every time. In fact I doubt that Fergie does either of the two. I doubt he uses a tactical wizard with preset settings for player positions either. The sliders have always been an interpretation of what the manager wants the player to do, any slider settings could have been converted into a real life instruction with a bit of imagination. I don't mean to single you out, but it's just really really stupid.

They need to tone down the importance of tactics (and tone down the power of the morale/motivation system even more, it is a completely broken system). In reality the team with the better players will succeed more often than not.

As it is now it feels like you are playing small puzzle mini-games in regards to tactics and motivation. It is cumbersome and unintuitive, both the theory behind it and the implementation.

If the wizard manages to produce a suitably potent tactic in an easy way, it is a big step forward. I mean, I want a 4-4-2, how bloody advanced does it have to be for it to be a decent way to play football and no, I don't want to create a separate formation to handle the hulk-like rush my opponent makes the last 20 minutes. That thing is just stupid also.

The brokenness of the systems is the reason people chase after super tactics, just to avoid having to bother with the messy system in the first place.

I don't think having a wizard means that you can slack off and ignore tactics. As cumbersome and unintuitive as it is, they give you an instruction manual to understand it, what more can you want?

I have been creating tactics on FML and exporting them to FM09 and I've already seen how much more realistic and how must faster I can make a tactics even when I have to import the tactics from game to game. It really is much, much better and I find that I still have to tweak the sliders so that the players perform better. I am looking forward to the shouts because as many players would agree, it is not so realistic to have to pause the game in the last 10 minutes to make big changes, disrupting the flow you were playing at.

I hope that the wizard only appears when you want it to and that you can turn them off permanently because I eventually found switching between wizard and slider on FML very very annoying.

I've been hating the sliders since they have been implemented. I was the fan of the old Men behind ball/Defensive/Normal/Attacking/Gung-ho settings. Now, with the new FM2010 tactics system, the FM seems to get close to real life.

I am aware that the new tactics system will also translate into sliders, because the computer won't understand a thing of "hug the line" or "press more" or things like that. But me, as a manager I want to tell the players "press more" or "hug the line" rather than setting some sliders.

Why? Because a slider goes from 1 to 20, which means from 0% to 100% in 5% steps. If I take a look at passing in FM2009, from 1 notch to 6 we have short passes, from 7 to 12 mixed from 13 to 19 direct and 20 means long. But how can I really see the difference between 14 and 15 notches. Does it have any real effect? The same thing with mentality. How does 60% attacking translates into real life? And what happens if I increase from 60% to 65%? Is something really happening on the pitch or it's just happening in my head? That's why I find those sliders stupid. Maybe I'll find them really useful for fine tweaking the tactics created with the new system, but I'm not so sure and I'll have to wait for the new game to confirm this statement.

And now, I have an idea for the fans of sliders: maybe you can ask SI to implement some sliders for the team talk also. You are pleased with the team? Just move a slider few notches up. Are you angry? Put it to notch 1. But wait! You are not really angry. You are something between angry and disappointed. So you set it to notch 3. Just imagine!

Actually it's a step in the RIGHT direction...

In a way, a manager doesn't say to his players "ok, I want you to play as MC, with forward runs at 12/20. Run with the ball 10 times out of 20 and a closing down ratio of 15/20"

A "play CM with defensive playmaker approach" is much more likely and realistic.

Sliders are more or less an overcomplicated rendition of a series of instructions and decisions that should almost come "bundled" with the specific position of the player, with the global tactic and with the player's personal skills.

If the new "tactical wizard" is a more user- and football-friendly way to set the sliders, it's just awesome.

-> check posts of Oliver Collyer at end of page : http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=147902

Is going to a PRE set tactics option a step in the wrong direction for FM? Didn't we have a similar system in previous games and it evolved into a slider options? (Could be wrong).

Having a slider system means you could define how each player plays eg how attacking or defensive a player plays on a scale of 1 - 20. Now it seems that you can only set a player on 5 pre set scale. I was so used to having the sliders as a 100% rule, so setting a player on 8 clicks means I want that player to play 40% defensive and 60% attacking mentality.

Also does the formation setting have a custom formation where I can have say the wingers on to Attacking wingers position and the full backs on to wing backs? Or is everything preset?

Isn´t 8 clicks 60% defensive and 40% attacking, maybe this wizard IS a good thing for you?

I need people to stop using this example, it makes me want to throw up every time. In fact I doubt that Fergie does either of the two. I doubt he uses a tactical wizard with preset settings for player positions either. The sliders have always been an interpretation of what the manager wants the player to do, any slider settings could have been converted into a real life instruction with a bit of imagination. I don't mean to single you out, but it's just really really stupid.

I don't think having a wizard means that you can slack off and ignore tactics. As cumbersome and unintuitive as it is, they give you an instruction manual to understand it, what more can you want?

I have been creating tactics on FML and exporting them to FM09 and I've already seen how much more realistic and how must faster I can make a tactics even when I have to import the tactics from game to game. It really is much, much better and I find that I still have to tweak the sliders so that the players perform better. I am looking forward to the shouts because as many players would agree, it is not so realistic to have to pause the game in the last 10 minutes to make big changes, disrupting the flow you were playing at.

I hope that the wizard only appears when you want it to and that you can turn them off permanently because I eventually found switching between wizard and slider on FML very very annoying.

A/ This example will be used time and time again because it is true & correct.

B/ The instruction manual is next to useless regarding in depth tactics, you needed wwfans guide or similar to "understand" properly the game mechanics. Even then, many felt more than a little lost. The wizard screenshots suggest a smoothing of overall adjustments to prevent tactic breaking slider position conflicts which the manual would not have made clear / prevented, and even the forums would only have helped with if you had been correctly selective about which opinions you did / did not heed.

C/ Contradiction?, you seem to suggest that the wizard in FML form has helped you, why should it not help others in its FM10 incarnation?

D/ Yes, wizard should be switch-offable, if only for what I predict will be the tiny minority that cant get into it.

For what its worth, I have already learnt a couple of tweaks for my FM09 tactics, purely from the No. 6 blog & screenies where certain "if you do this, then do this" tactical tweaks became apparant.

Isn´t 8 clicks 60% defensive and 40% attacking, maybe this wizard IS a good thing for you?

Indeed it's easy to find the percentage by halving the number of notches and x by 10 (so 7 notches up would be 65% defensive 35% attacking), but not everyone wants to do that, not everyone can do that, and more importantly, it is a world away from how real tactics would be given to players.

The wizard is a good thing for many of us, even if we can translate notches in to maths, which is ridiculous in itself

Sliders is micromanagement, like in Civ 3 it drove 80% of users, the casuals to dispare, the wizard removes micromanagement making the game more usable for the casual. The retention of the sliders allows more advanced users to micromanage if the want or need to.