A feature I was told was not possible?

I remember just last year or so, suggesting the idea to be able to pick where we can start our season... i.e. january in the current season with the real life results (obviously when this point of the season would have passed in real life) and was told it wasn't possible... only to find out it's now a new feature in the new CM?

So why is it not possible in FM exactly?

CM is a different game. I doubt FM will copy them.

FM > CM

Nothing needs to be copied.

Its like copying the answers to a test from the worse pupil in class.

You guys totally missed my point, I suggested this feature before FM09 and ALOT of people loved it, only to be told it wasn't possible.. something to do with legal reasons I think. Only for two years later CM to include it in their game. I was curious why FM can't and CM can... not asking them to copy it.

Maybe the way they write the code is different for both games. It does sound like a cool feature but it's not enough to make me want to buy CM

As far as I can make out from other threads, especially the OTF CM2010 one, the pproblem is not coding but a rights issue, as in it would cost SI too much to have actual fixture lists for all their leagues, if EA or Konami would even allow it.

CM would probably be including transfers, injuries (although from the demo this could be doubtful, Hargreaves is fully fit on it), and maybe randomly generating the results, or using fake results to get the actual table data. They could aso be paying a fortune for league rights, but I doubt it 1) for the reason above, and 2) they would have used real images e.g. the real Man Utd crest rather than the red/black monstrosity in the demo.

You guys totally missed my point, I suggested this feature before FM09 and ALOT of people loved it, only to be told it wasn't possible.. something to do with legal reasons I think. Only for two years later CM to include it in their game. I was curious why FM can't and CM can... not asking them to copy it.

CM are claiming it but we are yet to see the feature in action.

I guess its possible they have purchased the rights to be able to do this correctly but we'll just have to wait & see.

maybe CM have purchased the right s to do this, in the hope itll attract players over from FM. same as the "pay as you play" thing. its basically them trying to claw back the huge market deficit they face vs FM.

CM's best chance of beating FM is focusing purely on the gameplay. Look at Fifa vs Pro Evo. Pro Evo dominated for years, but just recently Fifa has edged in front. The benefit the CM developers have is they will not be scared to take risks. Risks are necessary to succeed (e.g. look at the innovative Wii beating Xbox and Playstation). SI might be more complacent as they are already on top.

SI might be more complacent

I suspect the reason it is 'possible' in CM is that they have not thought through the consequences.

At the point where you jump into the season the game has to pick up exactly the same form, moral, tactics, team selection, relationships - basically anything that contributed to the current positions. If that is not correctly modelled then any big team that has struggled will suddenly rise up the table, small teams who over perform will sink without trace and the momentum in the title race will most likely alter too. Basically without a certain level of sophistication in the AI, which neither FM nor CM currently have, the entire fabric of the league will fall apart in front of your eyes.

And for what? A short term fix of a game that is meant to have you hooked for many seasons.

will NEVER happen... theyre businessmen.. before anything else they would have us believe, thats what they are.. pure and simple. theyre in it for a profit, thus theres no room... EVER.. for complacency...

Id suggest SI's last 4 games point to a distinct complacency.

complacent: pleased, esp. with oneself or one's merits, advantages, situation, etc., often without awareness of some potential danger or defect; self-satisfied (dictionary.com)

Changes since 05: team talks, Press conferences, Anti-piracy, 3d.............inspiring. C'mon SI pull a new game out of the bag with 10.

FM > CM

Nothing needs to be copied.

Its like copying the answers to a test from the worse pupil in class.

hahaha

Id suggest SI's last 4 games point to a distinct complacency.

complacent: pleased, esp. with oneself or one's merits, advantages, situation, etc., often without awareness of some potential danger or defect; self-satisfied (dictionary.com)

Changes since 05: team talks, Press conferences, Anti-piracy, 3d.............inspiring. C'mon SI pull a new game out of the bag with 10.

Sorry, but I don't agree.

I think the game overall has taken huge steps forward since 05.

Yes some features haven't been a success while others need improving but the general trend has been in a positive direction.

will NEVER happen... theyre businessmen.. before anything else they would have us believe, thats what they are.. pure and simple. theyre in it for a profit, thus theres no room... EVER.. for complacency...

Without a strong competition (Championship Manager/FIFA Manager), you can never be sure.

SI are in a position where they can release an awful game and still retain top market share when the next release comes out.

I would much prefer Championship Manager to succeed to push SI all the way to ensure they don't become complacent.

Sorry, but I don't agree.

I think the game overall has taken huge steps forward since 05.

Yes some features haven't been a success while others need improving but the general trend has been in a positive direction.

Personally I felt FM2005 was excellent, 06 improved only slightly, 07 was a vast improvement but then 08 was very poor, so much so that I stuck with 07 and then 09 while it improved on 08, still isn't as good as 07. I only ended up playing it because my brother didn't want it either and I couldn't be bothered to update from 07 to 09.

I've been very loyal to FM, but with so many features being more annoying than fun due to lack of depth (press conferences anyone?) CM did actually manage to turn my head with the whole "Pay what you want" campaign making the game cost £2.51 and a few new features like their set plays and drill editors.

I just hope FM10 is a vast improvement or I can see people swaying towards CM11

Personally I felt FM2005 was excellent, 06 improved only slightly, 07 was a vast improvement but then 08 was very poor, so much so that I stuck with 07 and then 09 while it improved on 08, still isn't as good as 07. I only ended up playing it because my brother didn't want it either and I couldn't be bothered to update from 07 to 09.

I've been very loyal to FM, but with so many features being more annoying than fun due to lack of depth (press conferences anyone?) CM did actually manage to turn my head with the whole "Pay what you want" campaign making the game cost £2.51 and a few new features like their set plays and drill editors.

I just hope FM10 is a vast improvement or I can see people swaying towards CM11

CM is, and always will be full of far too many bugs and faults to ever be better than FM. Yeah people will pay £2.51 for it, but you only get what you pay for...

I remember just last year or so, suggesting the idea to be able to pick where we can start our season... i.e. january in the current season with the real life results (obviously when this point of the season would have passed in real life) and was told it wasn't possible... only to find out it's now a new feature in the new CM?

So why is it not possible in FM exactly?

This would be a nightmare to research and test fully. This is one of the reason SI won't do this in FM along with cost and extra licensing required. The database in CM is already very poor in comparison to FM so doing this will only make things worse.

It is a nice idea in theory that you might try a few times, but the amount of work from the games developer and research team to make it accurate is so huge it will no doubt fail.

3 patches and still co-ownership bug = complacency.

CM is, and always will be full of far too many bugs and faults to ever be better than FM. Yeah people will pay £2.51 for it, but you only get what you pay for...

I suspect they did this so tons of people will buy it and they can put on their publicity "best selling management sim on the market."

As for the OP's question, actual fixtures, results etc are the intelectual property of the FA and would require either purchasing or some other agreement before implementing them into the game.

When I first heard about the CM effort I thought "Brilliant, why didn't SI think of this," and promptly began thinking how great it would have been to take over Newcastle instead of Alan Shearer at the end of last season. But the big thing that occurs to me is that for it to be a genuine challenge you would have needed to start the game with a whole new set of attributes for a whole lot of players. Who'd have thought Berbatov would have fared so poorly, who could have predicted Hull's grit or Stoke's teamwork and pure determination? So all that would have to change in the database and histories. In Newcastle's case you'd take over a team with rock-bottom morale but much better technical skills than in real life, plus a whole host of other knock-on issues that will either a) make the game way too unreal to gain any pleasure from, or b) the knock-on effects would generate so many bugs that the game would be virtually unplayable.

I do like the idea, and I think it would be a great addition, but ONLY IF IT WORKS. I'll be monitoring the CM forums to see how much it improves but for this season my next £2.51 will be going toward a pint or some nice wine.

3 patches and still co-ownership bug = complacency.

Or maybe it isn't as easy to fix as you think.

This is a guess - as you know I'm not the right person to provide a technical insight - but -

I believe one of the main reasons is the rights over "real fixtures" - the calendar, believe it or not, is something that in some specific leagues is owned by rights holders.

It's likely be technically possible to start the game at a certain point in time but to make it accurate you'd need real fixtures which isn't something we can do in every league.

I have no idea why or how CM does this, you'd need to ask them.

I suspect the reason it is 'possible' in CM is that they have not thought through the consequences.

At the point where you jump into the season the game has to pick up exactly the same form, moral, tactics, team selection, relationships - basically anything that contributed to the current positions. If that is not correctly modelled then any big team that has struggled will suddenly rise up the table, small teams who over perform will sink without trace and the momentum in the title race will most likely alter too. Basically without a certain level of sophistication in the AI, which neither FM nor CM currently have, the entire fabric of the league will fall apart in front of your eyes.

And for what? A short term fix of a game that is meant to have you hooked for many seasons.

+1, spot on with everything you said.

I suspect the reason it is 'possible' in CM is that they have not thought through the consequences.

At the point where you jump into the season the game has to pick up exactly the same form, moral, tactics, team selection, relationships - basically anything that contributed to the current positions. If that is not correctly modelled then any big team that has struggled will suddenly rise up the table, small teams who over perform will sink without trace and the momentum in the title race will most likely alter too. Basically without a certain level of sophistication in the AI, which neither FM nor CM currently have, the entire fabric of the league will fall apart in front of your eyes.

And for what? A short term fix of a game that is meant to have you hooked for many seasons.

I don't see the problem. If Eidos release a "database" detailing the (quote) form, moral [sic], tactics, team selection and relationships (end quote) of all the teams, then it would have solved your dilemma.

Alternatively, these things could be deduced from league position and things like scoring lists (Chelsea 20th, morale is poor, Drogba averages 4.30, etc.).

Could you include fictional scenarios, Miles? Change the names of the teams and players, possibly unrecognisably? So, can you get your team (IRL Manchester United) from 15 points behind (Keegan's Newcastle/Dalglish's Blackburn) to win the title? Okay, that would be hard to code and research. But could you still do that for the current season?

For example,

IRL, Liverpool are 11 points behind City for a CL place with seven games to go.

In game, Gomsworth City are 11 points behind Fortchurch Rovers with seven games to go.

Copyrights and licensing always confuses me, I find it strange that there would be anything illegal about adding in the real results, I mean that is how the league is. Or is this because the Prem own the rights to all the results?

SCIAG - we could, but it would be horrible, in my opinion! We'd have to use completely made up teams and players... And then there are also "passing off" laws in some countries, so there would still be legal risk.

Very horrible, although could you use the real history and attributes of clubs, staff and players? If so, it's quite a simple edit job, especially if each scenario is "one season, one league". The "passing off" laws though...

What about fictional scenarios with real team names? Burnley are 20 points from safety at Christmas, can you save them?

If you want can't you pay for the rights to use real fixtures in games, I am assuming this is what CM have done. So it makes me think why FM can't pay for the rights to use them.

Everyone knows FM is the best selling Football manager game out there which = lots of sales = lots £.

CM don't sell anywhere near as many copys as FM does, But they could still afford to have the rights to use the real results/tables for 49 major leagues and competitions.

Im just curious to know why?

I remember a few years back the Premieship wanted to charge newspapers an annual fee for showing matchday photos in their sports sections, I seem to remember the figure being at around £10m per annum. They finally backed down when they realised how much the resulting media boycott would cost them.

I have a possible solution to the problem move SI to Israel, as an Israeli court has refused to convict a company based ther of infringing copyright over internet streaming of matches proof

I have no idea about the legal side of things but CM 2010 are doing 6 CM Seasons Live updates from October 15th for just £5.

The idea is you can load up any of the 6 update that will have all the current results, injuries, signings, player form etc right up to date.

In all honesty it is a great idea as it will offer many challenges.

If I'm allowed to paste this, this is what it says on the CM site about CM Seasons Live -

--------------------------------

CM Season Live™ is an exciting new feature coming to Championship Manager 2010 - a series of updates that allow players to experience the entire 2009/10 football season as it unfolds. The first Season Live™ will be available from October 15th 2009.

Each monthly update features full information for 49 competitions across 10 European countries containing all the scores, league standings, and competition placings for every club and full player info including signings, scorers, average ratings, major injuries and suspensions.

To give an example of how these will fundamentally affect your experience of Championship Manager, cast your mind back to the end of last season, when Alan Shearer was appointed Newcastle manager. He had just 8 games to turn their fortunes around and save them from relegation.

But how would you approach the same situation?

Imagine taking charge at that point, with all results, bookings and injuries reflecting real life, even a players’ games/goals and average rating all accurate and in line with real world football. That is the opportunity that CM Season Live™ offers.

With 6 monthly updates available throughout the season, from October 15th, you can start your game & take on the managerial hotseat from varying start dates as the season progresses, and try to change your club’s fortunes for the better. Of course if you wish, you can still start from the beginning of the campaign, or from any other update point.

CM Season Live™ is about offering players a huge choice of gameplay and will radically alter their experience of football management.

Am I the only person who think this feature would just be crap? I can't imagine ever using it.

Perhaps historical scenarios would be intersting though. Would they be affected by he same legal issues?

If you want can't you pay for the rights to use real fixtures in games, I am assuming this is what CM have done. So it makes me think why FM can't pay for the rights to use them.

Everyone knows FM is the best selling Football manager game out there which = lots of sales = lots £.

CM don't sell anywhere near as many copys as FM does, But they could still afford to have the rights to use the real results/tables for 49 major leagues and competitions.

Im just curious to know why?

My guess is that they haven't got all of the rights for it, but who knows? You could ask them.

I know that its a problem for us - it's not just a matter of money. I believe some of those rights simply aren't available.

Without a strong competition (Championship Manager/FIFA Manager), you can never be sure.

SI are in a position where they can release an awful game and still retain top market share when the next release comes out.

I would much prefer Championship Manager to succeed to push SI all the way to ensure they don't become complacent.

As someone that's been playing religiously from the original Championship Manager game in the early nineties, and having seen the steady improvements to the game over the years I find it completely laughable to suggest that the SI team are becoming complacement with the game.

It's blatantly obvious these guys lap the game up probably more than we do, and will continue to keep FM lightyears ahead of CM (tried the demo this year for first time, total garbage, time I'll never get back). The fact they have concentrated on fixing bugs for the new release also shows they listen to what people in these forums.

As someone that's been playing religiously from the original Championship Manager game in the early nineties, and having seen the steady improvements to the game over the years I find it completely laughable to suggest that the SI team are becoming complacement with the game.

It's blatantly obvious these guys lap the game up probably more than we do, and will continue to keep FM lightyears ahead of CM (tried the demo this year for first time, total garbage, time I'll never get back). The fact they have concentrated on fixing bugs for the new release also shows they listen to what people in these forums.

I never said SI have become complacent.

I'm saying we can never be sure but some way of going to ensure they don't is to have a strong competition in the form of Championship Manager.

Competition drives creativity. I hope CM catches up so it can push FM to greater heights. You only need to look at the fierce rivalry between Pro Evo and Fifa to see competition is good for business.

FM > CM

Nothing needs to be copied.

Its like copying the answers to a test from the worse pupil in class.

Hit the nail on the head...

In terms of legality, I know that in the U.S. the major sports (NFL, NBA, MLB) made a push a few years back to try and charge sites like Yahoo and ESPN for the rights to statistics for fantasy sports; it was shot down, with a court determining that the stats weren't proprietary information. Or something like that.

But that's the U.S., so it probably doesn't help.

Am I the only person who think this feature would just be crap? I can't imagine ever using it.

Perhaps historical scenarios would be intersting though. Would they be affected by he same legal issues?

I don't think it's a crap idea, but I doubt I'd use it. I like managing from the start of the season.

Am I the only person who think this feature would just be crap? I can't imagine ever using it.

Perhaps historical scenarios would be intersting though. Would they be affected by he same legal issues?

Crap is a strong word but personally I only play 3-4 careers each FM and given that you would need to start a career each update its not something I would use, evenless pay for.