The "Loose Wiring" of Football

I play a lot of Poker, and there's a phrase used to explain why some players do the inexplicable from time to time - it's called "the loose wiring of Poker" and it's the random human factor that occurs whenever people have to make a lot of decisions. I think it's a great phrase, and it's clearly not just Poker that it applies to.

One area I think it applies more than most is football. There's something about the game that lends itself to insanity. From Sven taking over at Notts County, to the total implosion of a side like Leeds who went from Champions League to League One in a matter of a few years. Signings that surpise the hell out of you - Sol Campbell to Notts County is a good example, Darren Anderton going to Bournemouth (my personal bias there), Matt Jansen opting to stay at Crystal Palace rather than sign for Man Utd back in the day, Keegan going back to Newcastle and walking out against just as quickly...that's only a few examples off the top of my head. I'm sure everyone can think of plenty of managerial appointments and signings that make you wonder aloud "what were they thinking?".

I think that aside from all the great new features in FM and the innovations in the game and the 3d engine, there's also been a move away from the old style of the Champ Man games where, often, strange and wonderful things would happen. I once built a Bournemouth side in the Championship that had Rivaldo, Shearer and Rio Ferdinand at it's heart. OK, they were a little long in the tooth, but it's still surprising. Nowadays I find it much, much harder to achieve that kind of thing.

Footman has perhaps become a little too predictable. Generally you can tell which players are going to sign for you and which won't. Most teams seem to play the optimal tactic against you, pick the best side, sign the best players they can - there's not the same number of mis-steps there are in real life. People don't make mistakes the way they should. The wiring is all a little too perfect. I'm not talking about on the pitch where we've all seen players make mistakes, I'm talking about off the pitch.

I just wonder if the game is trying too hard to model some imaginary optimal world. That it's not taking into account the loose wiring.

Looking forward to FM10, keep up the good work.

I think the game of football itself has moved on over the last 10-15 years making the things you describe less common.

Yes, Football Manager needs to move away from creating a perfect football world to a real football world.

I understand what you're saying, and to an extent i do agree. But think of all the posts we get on here saying the game is unrealistic. can you imagine what it would be liek if SI tried to program in the "loose wiring" element ?? it would be a nightmare...

Yeah things like the world player if the year could sign for a mediocre prem team or championship team. I feel if SI attempted it they would possibly exaggerate it

I just wonder if the game is trying too hard to model some imaginary optimal world. That it's not taking into account the loose wiring.

If it is SI are doing a horrifically poor job. The game is far, far more random than rl and with far, far more extrme/unbelievable examples of "loose wiring".

actually.. now i think about it.. the "lose wiring" could be said to alrady be in place. thats what happens when we take over our clubs... the signings we make, the formations we play, the staff we sign.. for example, when i manage liverpool, the first thing i do is shift out almost the entire first team squad. thats not predictable (well, ok, maybe it is)

Yeah you hit the nail right on the head their teddy bear , the only thing is that football manager is just a game at the end of the day and however realistic the game ever gets it will never fully be able to ever imitate real life

actually.. now i think about it.. the "lose wiring"

I hope to god this isn't added, I find it hard enough to win already

I hope to god this isn't added, I find it hard enough to win already

Excuse typos, I blame the tiny netbook keys.

I had the good sense to get my excuses in early

lol well, i would have done the same, but you pinched my excuse!!

All I'm asking for is for, occasionally, players to make decisions that don't add up. Not for bedlam, not for widespread madness, but for it to be possible for the unusual to occur. This is not about teams losing when they "shouldn't" and so forth, but perhaps more about factoring in human error. I feel that the computer controlled teams and pretty much all the players and staff out there are operating under some identical series of instructions i.e. I am this age, this good, and therefore I will only sign for these clubs.

Just to add one more point - I think it's also important in the transfer market. Think how hard it is to sign a player in Foot Man, then think how liberally players move clubs in real life. Even players who you would think were actually quite important to a team. I think the influence of money on clubs is diminished in FootMan. It seems only astronimical sums will move chairmen to intervene.

but how do you program a computer/AI to act like a human ?? which human do you base it on ?

All I'm asking for is for, occasionally, players to make decisions that don't add up. Not for bedlam, not for widespread madness, but for it to be possible for the unusual to occur. This is not about teams losing when they "shouldn't" and so forth, but perhaps more about factoring in human error. I feel that the computer controlled teams and pretty much all the players and staff out there are operating under some identical series of instructions i.e. I am this age, this good, and therefore I will only sign for these clubs.

Just to add one more point - I think it's also important in the transfer market. Think how hard it is to sign a player in Foot Man, then think how liberally players move clubs in real life. Even players who you would think were actually quite important to a team. I think the influence of money on clubs is diminished in FootMan. It seems only astronimical sums will move chairmen to intervene.

Again, I disagree. This is already in the game and strange occurances happen quite often. Players signing for teams that don't play them, players signing for smaller teams than you would expect, players signing for bigger teams than you would expect, it's all in there, no need for change.

I would love to see more cup shocks, there has been quite a few in recent years in England but I never seem to see many at all on the game. Apart from that players signing for random clubs and other examples of loose wiring happen enough for me.

I personally like the orginal posters suggestion, but the obvious flaw would lie in programing how you would get the "loose wiring" to occur.

I'd love it, the football world is nowhere perfect! Isn't that one of the reasons we love it!?

I would love to see more cup shocks, there has been quite a few in recent years in England but I never seem to see many at all on the game. Apart from that players signing for random clubs and other examples of loose wiring happen enough for me.

thats a good point. i dont think there are many "giant-killings" atm. could maybe be toned up a lil bit.

i believe theres a thread a lil llower down the page bout a certain dutch amc. sold by his club to an italian side, and, 6 months later, bought back by that spanish side for almost 4x what they sold him for.... that make sense ? no? someones wires must be loose then...

The 'loose wiring' effect on FM would create bedlam, even if this was done well i could see hundreds and hundreds of people whinging, moaning and complaining about how how FM because (using an exaggerated circumstance) of one move of Cristiano Ronaldo to Bolton Wanderers making the game 'unrealistic'.

Also the OP mentioned Notts County's recruitment of Sven Goran Erikison and Sol Campbell, Is this really loose wiring or the effect of having an ambitious chairman? For instance in Kipfish's latest experiemnt (of which i have lost track of) The Sheffifs i think it was made a couple of suprise signings of better reputation players, Perhaps not of the same ilk of Sol cambell, but Marcus Bent was one and had signed on a huge salary for a League Two Club.

i just wonder If it is the loose wiring effect or an cause and effect process of an ambitious rich chairman in the lower leagues, which FM as already perhaps slightly unwittingly already created.

p.s please excuse any typo's here too, Im an idiot :-p

Real Madrid sold me Van der Vaart for £8 million after he played zero games for them, I sold him onto Sampdoria for £12 million who gave him 3 starts before selling him to Madrid for £16 million. Thats loose wiring enough for me. He is now transfer listed for £8 million after playing no games at all.

Real Madrid sold me Van der Vaart for £8 million after he played zero games for them, I sold him onto Sampdoria for £12 million who gave him 3 starts before selling him to Madrid for £16 million. Thats loose wiring enough for me. He is now transfer listed for £8 million after playing no games at all.

same player i was trying so hard NOT to name... lol

lol, maybe I should of put spoiler tags on his name.

lol how do you do that, anyways??? you can tell i havent been here in a while....

[ spoiler] Text [/ spoiler]

Just remove the spaces.

I don't think naming Van der Vaart matters too much most people know what sort of player he is anyway. I still have to remind myself how to do screenshots lol.

lol ta muchly for that.. never knew how to do that one!!

No problem, I didn't until people started using it in the good player forum.

seems an odd place to use it! never really seen it til last few weeks altho i have been away a while. didnt figure id be useful if i didnt own 09... now i just seem to be picking on Nomis... which is quite fun

The second SI do this there will be thousands of people clogging up this very forum with "OMG SVEN JUST WENT TO NOTTS COUNTY, THIS GAME IS SH*T" etc.

People moan about everything and whilst this could be an interesting addition, it will receive far more critics than people who appreciate it. I've seen people moaning on here because Ronaldo went for more than £80m in their game even though he only cost that much in real life, everyone seems to demand ridiculous realism and hate everything out of the oridinary.

Would be nice to see some cup runs though, I'm always disappointed I never get drawn with a non league side to obliterate because they have all gone before round 3.

Hooray for bitter posts.

I think they find it hard enough to model people's rational actions. To model people's irrationalities, they'd have to be able to pass the Turing test.

As someone has already touched on, with Notts County's ambitious chairman, FM actually seems to be looking to model player's personalities more and more.

If you have a deeply unambitious and highly loyal player who has lots of favoured personnel at hsi current club, then perhaps he would turn down a big move to Man Utd.

Players view of themselves can also differ - I sometimes sign players for my first team who think they are only worthy of a back-up position, and price themselves accordingly, sometimes I sign young players who rate themselves too highly, price themselves out of big moves and end up at inferior (but accommodating) clubs.

The "loose wiring" has to go through the number-crunching like everything else, and I like the path they've taken - though, of course, it could use a lot of work.

You can please some of the people all of the time or all of the people some of the time, but as long as people are winning and feel like they've earnt the win it doesn't matter.

There needs to be anomolies, just like in real life. Every now and again something ridiculous should happen that defies belief.

Loose wiring in FM: takeovers of unexpected clubs with big cash injections.

Us as human managers working the transfer market in ways no real-life manager does.

People giving the examples of players signing for clubs and never being used - for me that's a bug in the AI that has no bearing on real life. Clubs rarely if ever spend as much on a player they never use in real life as the do in FM.

And yes, Notts County obviously have an ambitious chairman, but in FM I think the problem would be that you wouldn't ever get Sven or Campbell to play for you because they would hit the reputation wall.

As I said - this is not about creating bedlam, but about making sure that errors are made by the computer intentionally in order to better model real life. I just think the random factor needs to be upped a little bit in FM. A lack of Cup shocks is a good example.

People will always moan. I don't think SI make it a policy to listen to the moaners on these forums since as anyone who has gathered marketing data will tell you - people are always far more vocal in criticism than in praise.

Absolute nonsense in this thread. I totally agree with Nomis - there is enough 'loose wiring' in the game already. Probably too much!

I guarantee that most of the people asking for 'loose wiring' in this thread would also be up in arms shouting 'BUG' at the top of their voices if any of this so-called 'loose wiring' appeared in the game! The irony of people wanting a bug free game and for it to be 'loosely wired' is not lost on me.

Please SI, I would like a 'firmly wired' version of FM.

Any football simulation which allows me to get two consecutive promotions with St. Albans City is suitably 'loosely wired' as far as I am concerned anyway!

As for a couple of the 'issues' brought up.

1) Unlikely player signings

- I've seen Robbie Fowler plying his trade in the Conference and I, myself, have signed an aging ex-Premier League star for a Blue Square South side.

- I've seen a Conference South team taken over by a consortium and spending big to bring Championship standard players to the club.

- Playing as a League Two side with a lower reputation than Notts County, I would have been able to sign some big name veteran Premier League stars (Danny Murphy is one example) if I had the budget.

- As for managers, I've seen Paul Merson managing Team Bath (who had a takeover) in the Conference South!

I think there is more than enough 'loose wiring' in this respect, perhaps too much!

2) Cup shocks

In recent years, we've been treated to quite a few non-League cup runs beyond the average, which may skew people's understanding of how often such a run happens. There is very rarely a Havant & Waterlooville situation. Even when Havant & Waterlooville did make it to the 3rd round, there was only two other non-League teams who also got that far, and they were both knocked out of the competition, just as Havant & Waterlooville were, at the third round hurdle. The season before that, only two Conference teams made it that far. In fact, looking back through the years, the average is for around 2-3 non-League teams to make it to 3rd Round of the FA Cup, which is actually pretty well simulated in my FM09 game. It's something that I kept an eye on during FM09 beta testing and my opinion is the level is just right.

I've seen Conference South teams make it to the 3rd round on more than one occasion in FM09. In fact, I made my first ever 3rd round with a non-League team (in my FM history) while managing St. Albans City while I was in the Blue Square South, which I was particularly proud of!

As Nomis says, what you are looking for is in the game. You just have to open your eyes and look.

Regards,

C.

Just in case people were wondering about non-League teams in the 3rd Round of the FA Cup, here is the record (by league) for the last five years.

2008/09

6 Conference

1 Conference North

1 Northern Prem

2007/08

1 Conference

1 Conference South

1 Southern 1 Midlands

2006/07

2 Conference

2005/06

2 Conference

2 Conference South

2004/05

1 Conference

1 Isthmian Prem

Regards,

C.

Its not just the conference teams though Crouchy, it seems to me anyway that there are not enough shocks at all. Even things like Port Vale knocking out both Sheffield clubs would not happen in FM. I have never seen a team like Barnsley beat a team like Chelsea.

In my opinion cup shocks only happen when the user is controlling the team that produces a win over another side alot higher up.

If this "loose wiring" was introduced you would just get droves of people complaining about the lack of realism, SI can't win either way really.

I think the way they are going (100% realism) is the right way to go.

Its not just the conference teams though Crouchy, it seems to me anyway that there are not enough shocks at all. Even things like Port Vale knocking out both Sheffield clubs would not happen in FM. I have never seen a team like Barnsley beat a team like Chelsea.

In my opinion cup shocks only happen when the user is controlling the team that produces a win over another side alot higher up.

I've not played on FM09 for some time now but one of the biggest shocks I remember seeing when I was playing it was Conference South side Hampton & Richmond Borough (computer controlled) reaching the FA Cup 3rd Round, beating a couple of league sides on the way. So shocks do happen to the computer teams too.

Regards,

C.

If this "loose wiring" was introduced you would just get droves of people complaining about the lack of realism, SI can't win either way really.

I think the way they are going (100% realism) is the right way to go.

But it's not 100% realism if people don't make enough mistakes.

And like I said, people moan no matter what, and who cares anyway? You get people posting threads with things like "I AM MAN U AND I LOSE TO DERBY COUNTY THIS GAME IS A BROKEN PIECE OF CRAP I WANT MONEY BACK THANKS FOR NOTHING SI" but does anyone read them?

It's not nonsense or loose wiring when your team gets promoted back-to-back, since that happens a lot in football. However, as someone pointed out, Barnsley beating Chelsea would just not happen because in FM the game models the players as performing optimally most of the time. If you watch a lot of football, and I'm sure we all do, then you know that more often than not there really isn't much difference between two teams, especially near the top level. It's almost always one or two bits of luck or brilliance, whereas I find in FM it tends to be a whitewash one way or the other.

I would like to see more loose wiring even in the movement of the ball. Richochets, glanced headers, waywards shots that are stabbed in, a ball pinging through a crowd of players before finding an unmarked striker....the game is a little too predictable a lot of the time. The ball tends to go where people want it to, or it goes miles wide. If you look at passing - and I am not talking about through balls, just passing in general - how often do you see a player passing to where he thinks a player is about to be? There seems to be an awful lot of to-feet passing, which means the ball tends to have a far more predictable flight path. I find this to be regardless of passing style.

It's typical of these forums that opinion has to be divided hugely one way or the other. It's a shame, but then these forums have never really been a bastion of logical thinking which is a shame because the game deserves better.

It's not nonsense or loose wiring when your team gets promoted back-to-back, since that happens a lot in football.

Actually, it may happen at the lower levels of the Football League (e.g. Peterborough) but it certainly isn't likely at non-League level for a team to get two consecutive promotions into the Football League. Just as it isn't likely that a team from the Championship would go and win the Premier League the next season.

Anyway, plenty of random stuff happens in this game tedder_road. Have you been playing with your eyes shut or something?

In my time on FM09, I've seen all kinds of shock results and several types of 'loose wiring' that I wish I hadn't seen (e.g. Paul Merson managing Team Bath in the Conference South and signing Championship rated strikers for record breaking fees!) I have so many examples, I'd be happy to share some with you if you need convincing!

However, as someone pointed out, Barnsley beating Chelsea would just not happen because in FM the game models the players as performing optimally most of the time.

Just checked FA Cup Third Round in one of my saves.

Following shock results occured:

- League Two Morecambe beating Premier League Bolton away

- Premier League Chelsea beaten at home to Championship Reading

- Premier League Tottenham beaten by League Two Bradford

That's just from one year of the FA Cup, randomly selected!

If you watch a lot of football, and I'm sure we all do, then you know that more often than not there really isn't much difference between two teams, especially near the top level. It's almost always one or two bits of luck or brilliance, whereas I find in FM it tends to be a whitewash one way or the other.

So now we're talking about teams at the same kind of level. So in my long-term save, I picked Manchester United and Arsenal. No sign of 'whitewash' one way or the other. Both sides have the same record against each other with most games decided by a single goal, which seems just fine to me.

I would like to see more loose wiring even in the movement of the ball. Richochets, glanced headers, waywards shots that are stabbed in, a ball pinging through a crowd of players before finding an unmarked striker....the game is a little too predictable a lot of the time. The ball tends to go where people want it to, or it goes miles wide. If you look at passing - and I am not talking about through balls, just passing in general - how often do you see a player passing to where he thinks a player is about to be? There seems to be an awful lot of to-feet passing, which means the ball tends to have a far more predictable flight path. I find this to be regardless of passing style.

So now we're talking about the match engine instead? In the opening post, you said you were talking about 'loose wiring' off the pitch. :confused:

It's typical of these forums that opinion has to be divided hugely one way or the other. It's a shame, but then these forums have never really been a bastion of logical thinking which is a shame because the game deserves better.

It's not a matter of being divided over this one way or the other. It's just that everything you have said about off the pitch 'loose wiring' (i.e. strange player moves, strange manager moves, shock results) already happens. I find myself constantly asking 'what was the AI thinking?' What actually needs to happen here is there needs to be less loose wiring and more realistic wiring in my opinion!

Your comment in the opening post about having Rivaldo, Shearer and Rio Ferdinand at Bournemouth sort of sums it up really. You want to be playing Championship Manager 2.

As I said earlier, plenty of random things occur in the game, too many in fact. I think realism is the way forward, although the game must include a large dose of fantasy, of course (i.e. the ability for the manager to take his club far beyond what they could achieve in real life, amongst other little touches).

Regards,

C.

I just checked Round 3 of the FA Cup on my current game the only team eating someone higher was Burnley now in league 1 beat Sheff Wed now in the prem 2-1.

As I said earlier, plenty of random things occur in the game, too many in fact. I think realism is the way forward, although the game must include a large dose of fantasy, of course (i.e. the ability for the manager to take his club far beyond what they could achieve in real life, amongst other little touches).

Regards,

C.

But random stuff happening IS realism. That's what real life is. It seems you're looking for the game to be much more methodical and predictable. Obviously, we couldn't disagree more.

You are missing the point tedder_road.

I'm looking for the game to be a realistic simulation of football management. However, that does not mean that I want it to be predictable.

Shock results and surprising player movements are part and parcel of football, of course, but they are in the game already. I've given you several examples!

I don't think we disagree at all. I just think that you are describing something that is already sufficiently portrayed in the game. And there has to be a level of control, of course, because otherwise the game would descend into farce.

Some of the stuff you describe is actually quite predictable anyway.

From your opening post:

From Sven taking over at Notts County,

This is actually quite predictable as is the Sol Campbell signing. Aging manager and veteran player signing for a League Two side who have a huge budget! Maybe the Sven example wouldn't work so well in FM but the Sol Campbell one would. As I said before, I've seen non-League teams who have been taken over signing up famous managers and players way beyond their usual expectations due to the money they have got. Furthermore, there are plenty of older players who I have seen plying their trade in the lower leagues towards the end of their careers. I could post up several examples of things happening in the game that mirror the Notts County situation.

to the total implosion of a side like Leeds who went from Champions League to League One in a matter of a few years.

This one surprises me because people have frequently posted up screenshots of small clubs who have suddenly become a big force in football in the future, or bigger clubs who have fallen from grace. It's even more likely to happen in FM09 with takeovers making things even more unpredictable (and too unpredictable in my view when a club like Team Bath are taken over and have Paul Merson as manager and Championship quality strikers in the Conference South!)

If you want to sign Rivaldo, Shearer and Rio Ferdinand for Bournemouth in FM, then I disagree with you entirely. In that case, you don't want to play a simulation of football, you want to play a fantasy football game. However, if you want realism with a hint of the random, then I agree and I believe you'll find it all in FM09. From surprise takeovers in the lower leagues, to big clubs falling from grace. From FA Cup shocks to bizarre managerial appointments. From poor signings at big clubs to veterans playing out the remainder of their careers in non-League football. It's all in the game! I'm not sure what else you want. :confused:

My point is that the AI currently does all kinds of crazy things and that it actually needs to be more 'firmly wired', to alter your metaphor slightly, first and foremost.

Just out of interest, how much have you played FM09 and have you played past the first few seasons?

Regards,

C.

I totally disagree and still think you get some cracking events - AFC Hornchurch having over £15 million injected into them is my favourite.

I made a custom league in Asia once in FM2007 where nothing major ever happened. However, after a few years the Brazilian player Savio retired from Spain and coached one of the new teams in my league. Slightly ruined the game for me.

Thats not it though. I think having ex-Spain international, FC Barcelona midfielder and Real Sociedad manager Jose Mari Bakero managing.... HEDNESFORD TOWN has to be the greatest 'WTF' I've ever had with Football Manager. It was strange since he spoke no English and was actually employed as an Assistant Manager before being promoted - apart from the fact that in other saves he became manager of Spain for a while.

You are missing the point tedder_road.

Just out of interest, how much have you played FM09 and have you played past the first few seasons?

Regards,

C.

I've played every single version of the game going back to when it first came out on the Amiga. When SI posted that thread recently that said the average person had spent 240 hours playing FM09 I thought "blimey, I probably logged three or four times that much". Back when CM2 first came out I was at University and me and my mates spent pretty much all our spare time playing it. I added it up and between 1995 and 2001 I spent around 10% of my waking life playing Champ Man. That's around 200 days.

I guess what I see in the game is a gradual but inevitable move away from being a bit barmy. I find that the big teams are just too good and the bad teams are just too bad and it's very, very hard to get the kind of results I used to get on previous versions of the game. I suppose you do still get weird stuff happening, but more often than not the things people are describing seem more like horrible bugs. I'd like a few more events hard-coded into the game, and which the game itself recognises as being weird. All in all, I guess it's hard to put into words, but basically I think the game is moving too far away from what I percieve as the good old days.

tedder_road - I do understand what you mean but I think the direction the game is heading in is a good one. I'm glad to say that it's not 'a bit barmy' very often.

I guess you could say that in real life the big teams are too good (Manchester United etc.) and the bad teams are just too bad (St. Albans City ). But FM still allows me, admittedly with a lot of hard work, to take St. Albans City up the leagues to a position they could never achieve in real life. If I spent long enough on FM, I would be able to make St. Albans City the richest and best club in the whole world (also, have a look and see what Dafuge has done with Dartford!) Now that is barmy!

The game has become more realistic in its portrayal of football, which is good. It has therefore become slightly more difficult to play, which is good or bad depending upon how you look at it, I suppose. But it is still possible to do 'barmy' things such as take a small team to the top and sign the best players in the world. In my opinion, there is still plenty of fantasy in there, which keeps us all interested.

Regards,

C.