Suggestion - Tactical Evolution

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I’m reading “Inverting the Pyramid” and much as it pains me to say it, it’s a bloody good read. Anyway it’s got me thinking about tactical evolution in real life football and the lack of representation in game.

Atm it seems that tactics and football played at the beginning of the game are almost be all and end all, they rarely change and usually a team will only try something different under the guidance of a new manager. I’m sure everyone will admit that this isn’t representative of real life football and I was thinking that perhaps the game should have a preset tactical evolution setting, in which the AI evolves through time, so we end up playing against various tactical styles through the ages, rather than the start of game settings.

Examples:

Manchester United of 90’s played a standard attacking 4-4-2 and had success with it.

Schmeichel - Parker, Bruce, Pallister, Irwin - Giggs, Ince, Kanchelskis, Sharpe - Cantona, Hughes

Manchester United of the early 00’s played a controlling 4-5-1.

Barthez - Neville, Ferdinand, Blanc, Neville - Giggs, Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Veron - Van Nistelrooy

Manchester United of the late 00’s played a radical 4-5-1 that merged into 4-3-3, with deep lying forwards.

Van Der Sar - Neville, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra - Fletcher, Giggs, Carrick - Rooney, Ronaldo, Berbatov

All under one manager. Irl there is no need for a change in manager to influence a change in approach. Of course, only certain managers can do it with such aplomb, but to play against one team and one manager for such a length of time, all the while playing against one tactic (but for the infamous 4-2-4) is unheard of and unrealistic.

My suggestion is that as time goes by in the game, the AI managers tactics evolve and change, offering us different challenges. I don’t want to play against Joe Blogs in 2010, against his bog standard 4-4-2 and then come up against him 30 years later, with little to no change in his tactical approach. I want the AI managers to have dynamic and fashionable tactics, top keep me on my toes and offer a variety of challenges.

No doubt this is in the game, to a certain extent, with managers picking a formation based on players available, but I don’t think it’s tricky enough. Yeah, it might make it harder, but it will also give AI managers a personality and an edge, as if we really are getting one over them, ot just cracking it and hoping they don’t make good signings.

Excuse typos, I blame the tiny netbook keys.

While the idea appeals to me, I don't like it after thinking about it.

We can be sure that the game of football will evolve during the next decades (and managers will adapt). We just don't know how though. It will evolve in a way which will be regarded to be better, but if we knew how today, it would be changing today already. So how should it evolve in the game when we don't know how today? Which improvements shall SI make up if we don't know them yet?

And where to stop? What about inflation? What about changing competitions? What about whatever?

FM represents football as we know it and doesn't try to predict the future as it would almost necessarily fail to live up to that task.

I'd prefer if it was kept 'simple' and properly reflected today's football.

I personally love the idea of the world your managing in changing around you. The idea of the tatical side of football changing is an incredible thought. Adapting formations, adapting tatics and adapting to suit the world around you would make the game more "interesting". I couldn't say realistic there because who knows what would be realistic twenty years down the line!

Competitions adapting would be superb, slight rule changes would be great etc etc!

But to code that!? Wow!

The example stated isn't an evolution into completely original styles, 4-5-1 existed, as did 4-3-3 before Alex Ferguson employed them. IMO the OP is stating the managers should gradually be moulding their teams to be playing in new styles over time, not necessarily creating amazing new tactics, but just changing it around every few years as the player pool changes

The example stated isn't an evolution into completely original styles, 4-5-1 existed, as did 4-3-3 before Alex Ferguson employed them. IMO the OP is stating the managers should gradually be moulding their teams to be playing in new styles over time, not necessarily creating amazing new tactics, but just changing it around every few years as the player pool changes

Well, managers should not be static in tactics and react to what kind of players they have their disposal, true. But seeing which book inspried the suggestion I understand the suggestion to refer to the broader tactical approach to football as such. And there I don't see how we could be able to predict developments. It's like the stock market: Any future development of the worth of an enterprise is/should already included in its share value today, so the share value development should be fairly unpredictable. Same with tactical improvements. We used them today if we knew them.

I read about 4-6-0 being the tactic of the future. Whether we'll ever see that, either rarely or commonly, remains to be seen...

I think Taytaz is right, and if he is I agree. I would definitely like the AI to change tactics as the player pool changes.

If it turns out jayahr is correct then, well, can't see it being applied because the AI would actually need to think like we do.

well,i think we could ask to AI to be more..I!

for example,if juventus in my save league plays a narrow controlled short passes low tempo style..and then they buy alexis sanchez from me..does it make sense not changing a little they game style?or play sanchez as AMC,then sell him after a year for 20millions less the amount they paid for him?

i think that evolving tactics for AI should be linked with evolving transfer market..buy what you need for your gamestyle,and if you want to buy ronaldo and messi,please start playing on both sides very wide..

I read about 4-6-0 being the tactic of the future. Whether we'll ever see that, either rarely or commonly, remains to be seen...

How does that work?

we'll never know...until we see the future XD

The example stated isn't an evolution into completely original styles, 4-5-1 existed, as did 4-3-3 before Alex Ferguson employed them. IMO the OP is stating the managers should gradually be moulding their teams to be playing in new styles over time, not necessarily creating amazing new tactics, but just changing it around every few years as the player pool changes

Even so much as a preset change in preferred tactic e.g. 5 years of management, change from preset 4-4-2 to preset 4-5-1, would provide a different challenge and far more variety. Atm there's no change, that I can see, and a manager can manage a club for 20 years, never changing his style of play.

4-6-0 is kinda like United without Berbatov last season. VDS - Rafael, Evra, Ferdinand, Vidic - Fletcher, Carrick, Scholes, Rooney, Ronaldo, Giggs. Think of 4-3-3 with the front three occupying deep positions a lot of the time.

No takers?

I'm sorry but Nomis07 and Simon07 in the same thread is either a huge coincidence or something fishy is going on.

i like the idea. we know the football world will evolve over the next few years, so theres no reason why the AI managers in FM cant evolve too. The human managers evolve, we all try different tactics and formations and players, so why cant they? look at the formations Rafa has used whilst being in charge at Anfield. he's used a 4-4-2, a 4-3-2-1, and even a 3-5-2 plus im sure various others. no manager will use the same formation their entire carees, as they will sometimes be limited by budgets/players available etc, so theyres no reason why FM shouldnt implement this.

I don’t want to play against Joe Blogs in 2010, against his bog standard 4-4-2 and then come up against him 30 years later, with little to no change in his tactical approach. I want the AI managers to have dynamic and fashionable tactics, top keep me on my toes and offer a variety of challenge

couldnt agree more. theres no challenge there at all if you know who they used to play. the challenge should be theyre developing and evolving their tactics, just like the human manager is.

Simon07 is just a pretender.

Rinso, it might be asking too much to have managers actually adapt in the same way that we do. I'm thinking along the lines of a preset that automatically comes into effect after a deignated period of time e.g. Chelsea play preset 4-4-2, 5 years in the game automatically changes their preset to preset 4-5-1 etc. It isn't ideal and probably doens't make a world of difference, but it does add some variety and makes it feel like we are having to pit our wits agaisnt real managers.

Simon07 is just a pretender.

Rinso, it might be asking too much to have managers actually adapt in the same way that we do. I'm thinking along the lines of a preset that automatically comes into effect after a deignated period of time e.g. Chelsea play preset 4-4-2, 5 years in the game automatically changes their preset to preset 4-5-1 etc. It isn't ideal and probably doens't make a world of difference, but it does add some variety and makes it feel like we are having to pit our wits agaisnt real managers.

agaisnt?! damn netbook keys!!!

i know where you're coming from with that idea.. but there are a lot of things that you have to take into account, and weigh up. what if the manager changes? is it the team that evolves? is it the manager himself? if the manager changes club does the time-line reset itself? i agree we do need the variety, but its gonna be tough to implement properly...

edit: should also bear in mind the managers tactics will evolve differently depending on the league he is managing in. certain formations/styles of play will be more successful in Italy or Spain or Portugal... I'm not intentionally trying to shoot your idea down here...

edit: should also bear in mind the managers tactics will evolve differently depending on the league he is managing in. certain formations/styles of play will be more successful in Italy or Spain or Portugal... I'm not intentionally trying to shoot your idea down here...

No, I enjoy the debate and the point raises something interesting. All managers, in FM, have a preferred tactic, does this change when they take over a club in a different league? Is it based on players available? There a lot of issues with this, but I think we're raising a lot of issues with the current system as well. I think we can agree, this suggestion would be difficult to implement, but the sentiment, i.e. AI tactics, is something that could be worked on.

It would be nice, but it has to have its limits. For example, I could never imagine Rafa Benitez playing gung-ho attacking football, or Pep Guardiola playing cautious football at Barcelona.

It would be nice, but it has to have its limits. For example, I could never imagine Rafa Benitez playing gung-ho attacking football, or Pep Guardiola playing cautious football at Barcelona.

Of course, but I could never imagine Benitez or Guardiola managing a team for 15 yrs plus either. This is a feature that would only affect your Roux's and Ferguson's who have ample time to adapt and change over a lengthy managerial spell.

It would be nice, but it has to have its limits. For example, I could never imagine Rafa Benitez playing gung-ho attacking football, or Pep Guardiola playing cautious football at Barcelona.

agreed. but how would Pep manage at liverpool?? he wouldnt do the same as at Barca!

No, I enjoy the debate and the point raises something interesting. All managers, in FM, have a preferred tactic, does this change when they take over a club in a different league? Is it based on players available? There a lot of issues with this, but I think we're raising a lot of issues with the current system as well. I think we can agree, this suggestion would be difficult to implement, but the sentiment, i.e. AI tactics, is something that could be worked on.

Again, i agree. there a re a lot of issues that need to be ironed out but i suppose its the same with any new feature. im not sure how things work atm, when managers change clubs. do they just play their preferred formation no matter what? if so then its definitely something that needs working on.

to use the previous example, theres only one club that plays "the barcelona way" so what happens if Guardiola leaves and moves to AC Milan?!

I think Pep would play attacking football wherever he goes. He is an ardent follower of Johan Cruyff's attacking football philosophy. Maybe it would be more restrained in another league, but it'd still be attacking.

Simon07 isn't a pretender

I like the idea of managers being forced to adapt formations over a long period of time.

But surely there would have to be a media representation of this in the game, for example if for one season you play a 4-5-1, do well, then sign a new striker, you then change your formation to a 4-4-2 and then don't perform so well, the media should be commenting on the adapt formation to cater a certain player, etc.

That does happen for human managers. I had a successful 4-4-2 and changed to 4-5-1 in the CL, got thumped and the media remarkked on my strange decision to revert to a previously untried tactic in such an important match.

Simon07 isn't a pretender

I like the idea of managers being forced to adapt formations over a long period of time.

But surely there would have to be a media representation of this in the game, for example if for one season you play a 4-5-1, do well, then sign a new striker, you then change your formation to a 4-4-2 and then don't perform so well, the media should be commenting on the adapt formation to cater a certain player, etc.

and conversely comment if you signed another striker but continued to play 4-5-1...

afaik, Guaridola's "mandate" as manager was to make sure the club played "the barcelona way".. if he moves to AC Milan, will he try to mnake them play the same way, or will he adapt his coaching style to the Italian league. What if he's the next manure manager? will he try and play the same way in the premiership?

and yes.. the comments come if the human managers change formation and it goes tits up.... or indeed if they stick with the same formation when on a losing run...

and conversely comment if you signed another striker but continued to play 4-5-1...

Correct!

I have had a comment when I changed a formation for one game and lost that a "tactical gamble didn't pay off". So its kind of in, but not!

I think something like this needs to be in the game, over the history of football different tactics have come to the top. In the 90's and earlier 4-4-2 was the most common tactic in England easily but now alot of people play 4-5-1/ 4-3-3. I think it would be good to see managers taking on a certain formation that becomes more and more popular once you get further into the game.

Correct!

I have had a comment when I changed a formation for one game and lost that a "tactical gamble didn't pay off". So its kind of in, but not!

Its more down to the fact that the press conferences are dull and boring. I won 16 games and drew 1 in my season I then didnt win for 4 or 5 games. The press should have asked me if I feel other teams have figured out how to beat us and if I will change tactics in the next game.

I think something like this needs to be in the game, over the history of football different tactics have come to the top. In the 90's and earlier 4-4-2 was the most common tactic in England easily but now alot of people play 4-5-1/ 4-3-3. I think it would be good to see managers taking on a certain formation that becomes more and more popular once you get further into the game.

Its more down to the fact that the press conferences are dull and boring. I won 16 games and drew 1 in my season I then didnt win for 4 or 5 games. The press should have asked me if I feel other teams have figured out how to beat us and if I will change tactics in the next game.

its not just down to the press conferences, i dont have FM09, but ive come across similar comments in 08....

I just meant that you only get this question/message rarely but with the edition of press conferences it would be better if we were asked more about how and why we played like we did.

ooooh i see, my bad...