Suggestion - Avoid the Sack = Apprenticeship (Quick Start)

After much discussion in this thread and this thread, it seems that opinion is very much divided. How about an apprentice mode, which would be available in quick start, one season long, no chance of the sack as you are an assistant to the manager, who explains all details of the game as you go along.

You will pick teams and formations, under the guidance of an AI manager. This way it's not actually included in the game, per se, and the porspect of relegation etc is avoided as it is only one season long. A glorified, no chance of the sack, tutorial.

Sounds awful. The game has already been made cretin-proof with the addition of the tactics wizard, is wasting time on another such feature really neccessary?

I think this would be a great solution to be honest

This would be an excellent way to learn how to play the game, and as you say would make an excellent tutorial to help players learn the game. Great idea.

Sounds awful. The game has already been made cretin-proof with the addition of the tactics wizard, is wasting time on another such feature really neccessary?

Obviously not.

Btw, do you mind me asking how good the tactics wizard is? I haven't tried it.

Sounds awful. The game has already been made cretin-proof with the addition of the tactics wizard, is wasting time on another such feature really neccessary?

If you'd read the two threads linked in the opening post you would see that there are some good arguments for and against something like this being included.

Sounds awful. The game has already been made cretin-proof with the addition of the tactics wizard, is wasting time on another such feature really neccessary?

That's a pretty ignorant way of looking at it. The tactics wizard isn't 'cretin proof' it simply makes the current system more intuitive to use.

As for this idea I think it's great. What many people on this forum have to understand is there are a lot of people who play FM that don't come on here and who aren't experts, and ways which help them to ease in to the game and get more out of it without needing to read pages of forum threads would be very welcomed.

Also, easier to learn does not mean we are saying "OMG MAY ASWELL PUT A WIN BUTTON IN!" before some smart arse says it

How about an apprentice mode

Definitely not! FM is supposed to be a simulation of real life football management. When was the last time you saw an aprentice football manager?

Obviously not.

Btw, do you mind me asking how good the tactics wizard is? I haven't tried it.

In all honesty the tactics wizard is good at what it does by making tactics easy. Which is why I hate it. If you are incapable of creating a tactic you shouldn't really be playing a football management game, you should be playing fifa or pes.

That's a pretty ignorant way of looking at it. The tactics wizard isn't 'cretin proof' it simply makes the current system more intuitive to use.

As for this idea I think it's great. What many people on this forum have to understand is there are a lot of people who play FM that don't come on here and who aren't experts, and ways which help them to ease in to the game and get more out of it without needing to read pages of forum threads would be very welcomed.

Also, easier to learn does not mean we are saying "OMG MAY ASWELL PUT A WIN BUTTON IN!" before some smart arse says it

That's your opinion, just because mine differs doesn't make it ignorant. I think the game is trying to over simplify tactics and the time could be better spent adding other features or refining existing ones.

In all honesty the tactics wizard is good at what it does by making tactics easy. Which is why I hate it. If you are incapable of creating a tactic you shouldn't really be playing a football management game, you should be playing fifa or pes.

Erm, you have no idea what you're talking about.

I expect many people know what tactics they want to use, the problem is translating that knowledge in to setting up sliders in correct positions, which is exactly what a tactics wizard does.

Erm, you have no idea what you're talking about.

I expect many people know what tactics they want to use, the problem is translating that knowledge in to setting up sliders in correct positions, which is exactly what a tactics wizard does.

A slider has a set number of notches, it even tells you on the right hand side what the current setting equates to. That is pretty intuitive and simple. The tactics wizard has made it even more simple as it sets up everything for you (I have used it on FML).

I don't see how adding yet another option to simplify gameplay can satisfy people who have been buying the game for many years.

You seem to answer anything you don't agree with by accusing me of ignorance or saying I have no idea what I am talking about, when clearly that is nonsense. Come back when you learn to actually debate, rather than dismiss others viewpoints.

Definitely not! FM is supposed to be a simulation of real life football management. When was the last time you saw an aprentice football manager?

When was the last time you saw you as a manager?

If you are incapable of creating a tactic you shouldn't really be playing a football management game, you should be playing fifa or pes.

New feature for FM10, don't let anyone who uses the tactics forum buy the game?

Definitely not! FM is supposed to be a simulation of real life football management. When was the last time you saw an aprentice football manager?

Carlos Quieroz, Sammy Lee, Chris Hutchings, Brendan Rodgers...

A slider has a set number of notches, it even tells you on the right hand side what the current setting equates to. That is pretty intuitive and simple. The tactics wizard has made it even more simple as it sets up everything for you (I have used it on FML).

I don't see how adding yet another option to simplify gameplay can satisfy people who have been buying the game for many years.

You seem to answer anything you don't agree with by accusing me of ignorance or saying I have no idea what I am talking about, when clearly that is nonsense. Come back when you learn to actually debate, rather than dismiss others viewpoints.

Don't undermine peoples intelligence by saying something is simple and intuitive when clearly it isn't, hence the reason it's being added, it makes you come across as obnoxious.

Also you aren't ignorant because your opinion differs from my opinion. You don't understand what the feature is there to do nor how it actually works, therefore you're labelling it as a tool for cretins. You also condemn any feature that is newbie friendly by saying it's dumbing the game down. That is ignorant

Look, can we keep discussion relevant to the apprentice mode suggested?

(I do think the sliders were pretty intuitive, but only if you read the manual, which has a stigma attached to it )

Btw, before people get stuck on the "apprentice" part of it, it os just a tutorial with a fancy name, which lasts for a season. So, rather than say no because of the name it's given, decide whether or not you're against a tutorial for new gamers.

I'm not too keen on that.

Firstly because I wouldn't use it anyways,

secondly because I don't think this it what people want (they want unlimited play without being sacked) and

thirdly because I don't trust the AI to be of much use as a tutorial

edit: As a tutorial it sounds like a good idea. I just don't see how this could be what makes those happy who in fact do not want to be sacked ever. A imited tutorial just isn't the same thing. Then again I'm not sure that too many people need a tutorial like that.

Don't undermine peoples intelligence by saying something is simple and intuitive when clearly it isn't, hence the reason it's being added, it makes you come across as obnoxious.

Also you aren't ignorant because your opinion differs from my opinion. You don't understand what the feature is there to do nor how it actually works, therefore you're labelling it as a tool for cretins. You also condemn any feature that is newbie friendly by saying it's dumbing the game down. That is ignorant

Again you offer insults rather than debate.

The current tactics are intuitive enough that people have used and enjoyed them for many years and previous releases. The game wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it is if people weren't able to just pick it up and play it. If you think that captioned sliders are not simple and intuitive then I really would question your intelligence, I think even Forrest Gump could work out how they are meant to be used.

I didn't label it a tool for cretins, I said that the game has been made cretin-proof, which is a very different thing.

I am all for features which make the game newbie friendly, but with the addition of the tactics wizard, I feel it is as simple as it needs to be, so more time should be spent on other areas.

I think unsackable is an option that SI would never consider, and the majority of people who want it, claim it's because of difficulty, so I suppose you either call their bluff and give them a tutorial that deals with difficulty, or you just ignore them.

Definitely not! FM is supposed to be a simulation of real life football management. When was the last time you saw an aprentice football manager?

This is the most stupid thing anyone has ever said on these forums. A lot and i mean a lot of great football managers start out as an apprentice or as an assistant. May i please tell you about how Jose Mourinho was the assistant at Barcelona before getting his big break. Or how about Carlo Ancelotti who started as Italys assistant manager and then shadowed Roy Hodgson at Inter Milan for 2 weeks before starting off as a proper manager.

Im not one for win buttuns or unsackable button and i suggested a sanbox version of the game. But i reckon your idea of a quick start tutorial one season long guide is brilliant. It could also teach the newbies about how to use the press conferences to their advantage or about how people react in the press as well as tactics and match strategies.

Good idea i feel!

Again you offer insults rather than debate.

The current tactics are intuitive enough that people have used and enjoyed them for many years and previous releases. The game wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it is if people weren't able to just pick it up and play it. If you think that captioned sliders are not simple and intuitive then I really would question your intelligence, I think even Forrest Gump could work out how they are meant to be used.

I didn't label it a tool for cretins, I said that the game has been made cretin-proof, which is a very different thing.

I am all for features which make the game newbie friendly, but with the addition of the tactics wizard, I feel it is as simple as it needs to be, so more time should be spent on other areas.

Considering I've almost completed a degree in computer science I wouldn't question my intelligence, but I would and have questioned how intuitive sliders are to use, and the answer is not very, and obviously enough people agree that SI added a tactics wizard. Something that requires reading a huge guide to understand cannot be intuitive, it defies the very definition.

But anyway this isn't the thread to discuss it, so I'm dropping it.

Considering I've almost completed a degree in computer science I wouldn't question my intelligence, but I would and have questioned how intuitive sliders are to use, and the answer is not very, and obviously enough people agree that SI added a tactics wizard. Something that requires reading a huge guide to understand cannot be intuitive, it defies the very definition.

But anyway this isn't the thread to discuss it, so I'm dropping it.

Some of the stupidest people I ever met were students while I was in Cardiff Uni, so further education isn't the best indicator of IQ!

We may have differing opinions on this, but thats the point of the thread - consider it dropped.

Are you a tester guspjmh?

Are you a tester guspjmh?

For FM10 no. I did the full beta testing for FML though. Why do you ask?

Seems strange that you are so eager to dismiss (and then claim it as fact) the wizard as cretin proof when you haven't actually tried it, but for a testing position on FML that a) used an 08 ME and b) is considerably different (according to SI) to the FM10 tactics wizard.

PS: Should point out, that i'm basing that on recollections from previous threads and apologise if i'm wrong.

Ov confirmed that any changes in the tactical wizard are going to be pretty negligable. FML is at v1.2 and the FM10 version will be v1.3, so we are close to what it is going to be.

Tbh the tactics creator just isn't a tool I'd use, no matter how good it is. I think the whole fun of a football management game is thinking up tactics which can exploit you opponents weaknesses and make the most of your strengths, I was gutted when we lost the player arrows! Having a wizard do all this for you just seems like cheating! I can understand why it could be a useful tool for new players, although I would expect they have a fair grasp of football and would soon be interested in developing their own tactics.

It seems its real value is for the 'lazy' player who just wants to play games and not put a lot of effort into it, which is fine, but I feel any further options to make the game easier should be sidelined until other features with the game are addressed (Media, player interactions, corner exploits etc).

Nevermind new players, what about players who don't have time to develop their own tactic? Players with small children for example? Is it fair to call them cretins or lazy?

Nevermind new players, what about players who don't have time to develop their own tactic? Players with small children for example? Is it fair to call them cretins or lazy?

I have very recently become one of those (player with small child, not cretin)! I didn't mean lazy as an insult, perhaps casual would have been a better word.

My whole point is though, that the tactical wizard is here already so opinions on it are irrelevant, I just think that adding other features which are geared to making the game easier should not be the priority for a while, as a lot of time has already been dedicated to this with the wizard.

Who said anything about making it easier? This feature would explain the game, give insight and help newcoemrs understand the depth and level of input needed. It wouldn't actually make it easier.

Who said anything about making it easier? This feature would explain the game, give insight and help newcoemrs understand the depth and level of input needed. It wouldn't actually make it easier.

All the things the manual already does and you could read it in a tenth the time. Why bother?

All the things the manual already does and you could read it in a tenth the time. Why bother?

An interactive experience is far more enjoyable and bearable than reading a manual, that is best described as lacking. A tutorial could touch on more things and in far more depth than any manual ever could, without being hundreds of pages long.

It is possible for someone with very little knowledge of the sport and with a full-time job, a wife, and a >1 year old child to become interested in the game and want to learn. At least one person in the world fits this description, and that one person loves the wizard idea and would really appreciate a well-done tutorial (like the op's apprenticeship idea), rather than being tossed into the ocean and left to swim to shore himself.

This individual also read the manual and found it lacking in the kind of insight an interactive AI teacher would provide.

An interactive experience is far more enjoyable and bearable than reading a manual, that is best described as lacking. A tutorial could touch on more things and in far more depth than any manual ever could, without being hundreds of pages long.

Agreed, but developers have limited time each new release, is this really more important than many of the other parts of the game which could be improved, particularly when there is an existing manual which does the same thing (albeit not as well)?

"Users don't read manuals" - this is the hard fact in software industry.

Personally I don't mind about changes like 'tactics wizard'. It may be useful for new gamers who otherwise don't play management games. These are optional features and not everybody is bound to use these features. I am not going to use tactics wizard at all. But I am not against it.

PS: I don't play FM in 3D but this was most-sought feature request for long time. Did I whip those gamers @$$ ? never!

The AI managers can be pretty stupid, or should I say cretinous - since it seems to be the buzzword in this thread.

I'm not sure they'd be the best teachers.

I think that new players could get very frustrated if the AI had the ability to overrule their decisions, because the AI can make some stupid ones at times.

It might be better if the assistant manager's function was expanded to give the same kind of tutorial feel for the new players, whilst the more experienced could just ignore him and do what they know to be best.

Problem is, too many people take anything said by the AI as law - it's why you get those threads from people fretting over every last detail of their assistant manager's feedback. If you get the AI commenting on everything, some people might never get round to experimenting, which is the best way to learn.

Agreed, but developers have limited time each new release, is this really more important than many of the other parts of the game which could be improved, particularly when there is an existing manual which does the same thing (albeit not as well)?

Imo it is. Far more important than improvements to training or 3D, but each to their own I suppose. I'd rather more time was spent working on interaction than anything else, but I dare say a lot of people would say the same of 3D.

Progression is no reason to ignore inclusion.

Agreed, but developers have limited time each new release, is this really more important than many of the other parts of the game which could be improved, particularly when there is an existing manual which does the same thing (albeit not as well)?

Well if you actually know where the manual is on Steam...

Interactive tutorials can be valuable tools to absorbing information a lot better than a manual.

And especially with WWSM. There are a lot of soccer fans in Canada and US who would love this game, but not many know a lot about tactics, myself included a couple years ago. A tutorial would ease the learning curve for tactics.

To be honest, the current tactics system is rather restrictive. Some of the additions to tactics sound great, though I'm not positive a wizard is what I need. I frankly find that FM treats me like a child at times (a wizard for adding a manager? really? lol). I can see how it will be useful to many though, so I don't mind.

What I want is the ability to provide my players instructions on where to run/feed the ball as a tendency.

For example, if I have an AML, an AMC, and AMR, I haven't found a way to reliably tell my AML and AMR to make forward runs to the centre, because the tactics thinger right now only lets you draw the arrow straight. It's extremely limiting, I find, in how I can instruct my players to occupy the pitch. They either do so haphazardly, following the ball to some extent, or stand still in many cases. Yes yes, maybe it's my tactics and I just haven't figured it out (please englighten me). But it's certainly not self-evident. If I've got 4 people on a line (def or mid), I can't make them run on angles, I have to just accept where the AI draws the line when I just forward or back. The wizard may fix this, I hope so. I hope I'm able to do so myself though. Yay for arrows.

The addition of better instructions (cut inside, etc...) is extremely welcome. I'm a big fan of part of CMs tactics system, but even that his its rigid points. A combination of the two would be brilliant.

As for the OP, great idea. I'd even suggest being allowed to start as an Assistant Manager on a 1 year, non-renewable contract, at which point you're able to carry on in the game in the next year as if you were unemployed (which you would be!). Many people may not use it, but if it's done properly it could be extremely useful.

I think this is a great idea for any people who need some help getting into the game, the manuel is okay but a hands on experience is better than reading the text in the manuel. I do think rather than a quick start it should maybe be an option when starting a full game that way you could be an assman in Brazil and then start you true adventure around Europe or anywhere else you load up.

Definitely not! FM is supposed to be a simulation of real life football management. When was the last time you saw an aprentice football manager?

When was the last time you saw a completely unkown manager take over Man United, ending Alex Ferguson's 50000000 year spell for no apparent reason?

Brilliant idea, you can learn the ropes, and then maybe take over after a year or so, e.g. John Sheridan taking over at Oldham after Ronnie Moore was sacked (Shez having been the Reserves Manager!).

When was the last time you saw a completely unkown manager take over Man United, ending Alex Ferguson's 50000000 year spell for no apparent reason?

I do it all the time When there's a new fm its the first place I go.

I tihnk it would be a fairly good idea. It would definitely help people new to the game know how to play and what to do.

A very interesting idea. I was on the fence about the "unsackable" option, but I think this packages the useful points from that discussion with a very helpful new feature for those new to the series.

There's always an abundance of people asking for difficulty levels and this would be a way to satisfy some of that crowd as well. As someone suggested, after one year with the club you're offered the chance to take over as manager or leave as unemployed looking for your next position. If you want to take the apprenticeship as purely a tutorial, you can start over. If you want to use it as a springboard, that option would be available too.

I'd comment on the arrows/tactical wizard remarks but I think there's better threads for those discussions (for example, crouchaldino's post a few down the page polling about the FM08 arrows).

Carlos Quieroz, Sammy Lee, Chris Hutchings, Brendan Rodgers...

Jose Mourinho.

When was the last time you saw a completely unkown manager take over Man United

Just this summer I've seen rookie managers take charge at Juventus and Milan, both of whom are more successful clubs than United.

Just this summer I've seen rookie managers take charge at Juventus and Milan, both of whom are more successful clubs than United.

Lets not forget Pep Gaudiola (sp) at Barcelona, I think you could say he's been successful

Lets not forget Pep Gaudiola (sp) at Barcelona, I think you could say he's been successful

To a certain extent.................LOL

Lets not forget Pep Gaudiola (sp) at Barcelona, I think you could say he's been successful

Guardiola's overrated, he's no Phil Brown. I mean, I've never even seen him bark out orders into a Bluetooth.

Guardiola's overrated, he's no Phil Brown. I mean, I've never even seen him bark out orders into a Bluetooth.

Is this a feature that will be covered on the tutorial? I certainly hope so as I long to emulate the achievements of Phil Brown

(I do think the sliders were pretty intuitive, but only if you read the manual, which has a stigma attached to it )

We're men we're not supposed to read the manual, it's against the law:p