A(nother) controversial opinion on FM09....

Tonight I loaded up FM06 - the FM that has given me most actual total hours of pleasure over the years. I havent played it for about 2 years but....

....I noticed that (in my opinion) the match engine is more realistic than the FM09 match engine, ie the match action is more believable, and the players seem more in my control - they do pretty much as I instruct them.

I would be interested if anyone loaded up the old game now and gave their opinions. NB. This isnt meant to be either,

A/ a "let's all slate FM09" thread

or

B/ "lets execute the non-believer" thread

So to anyone who has current comparable knowledge of the 2 games....

Discuss.......

:-)

NB. I am only relating to FM06. FM05, 07 & 08 had their own weaknesses that dont make the FM09 ME look like backward step - but, sadly in my opinion, compared to 06 it does.

Discuss what? Could you provide some examples? Then we'd have something to discuss.

enjoy... i quite enjoy this years to be fair, just getting into 3D and im liking now.... cant wait for FM10

Discuss what? Could you provide some examples? Then we'd have something to discuss.

Its imposible to describe really, matches & player actions just look more "real" - that says it as it is, in my opinion. You have to load up the old game and play a match or two (I should have made that more clear in the OP - which I now have done).

Discuss what? Could you provide some examples? Then we'd have something to discuss.

GillsMan, I have clarified now, I hope that makes for the dicussion that I intended and not for a negativity fest.

I wish I still had my older FMs to play but most of them are in half after frustration at losing or they are simply missing, very strange.

I wish I still had my older FMs to play but most of them are in half after frustration at losing or they are simply missing, very strange.

Talking allSI games, generally, even back to CM days, I couldnt get rid of them! Maybe CM4 being the excrable exception.

Sold FM07 and have FM08. Really enjoyed the older versions. Don't think the m.e was better, I just think it was more fluid which gives the impression that it was better. If the FM09 M.E. was as fluid and less 'robotic', I am sure the we'd not be discussing this.

FM06 was my first FM and so I know I am absolutely biased. I had the best experiences with the game that year but I chalk most of it up to a combination of:

1. It was my first FM experience

2. It was quite easy to do well in both tactics and the transfer market without it feeling too easy.

I formed most of my opinions about where I thought the game should go in the future from that edition as well, and wrestled for a long time with the fairly conservative changes from year to year after that.

Bias notes aside, I will say this: FM06 was extremely fun. I've felt that each iteration after that has gone some way towards diluting the fun in pursuit of various features that have added to the gaming experience in other ways, or attempted to do so.

I sincerely think this dilution-o-fun is unfortunate for the franchise and that a serious fun-based overhaul of the game is overdue. What makes FM fun? What elements create the 'just one more day' addiction?

Thankfully, we have FM06 to compare with. A streamlined, rewarding gaming experience of the 1st order.

FM09 is, I would say, technically as good a game overall as FM06 (technically as in "ranking a game", not in technology). I would have hoped, in 2006, that FM09 would be a marked and obviously superior game, but it just isn't. That isn't to say that improving on FM06 would be easy, no matter the additions, refinements and improving areas of technology. Creating a fun experience seems as much a process of art as it does empiricism and requires probably as much luck as genius to achieve in the medium.

That said, it can be frustrating to see the series move in what appears to be the 'wrong direction', from a personal point of view, even while understanding the reasons and sympathizing with them. The most frustrating part though, personally, is the 'add to success' formula of change for the game. Adding:

Fun + Other Fun doesn't necessarily equal More Fun

F + OF /= MF!

Yet, that is the most safe way to advance the concept. The original Fun is there (technically), so it can only be a ++good thing, right? Right? Riggghhht?

If the franchise would give up this additive methodology and really do a top-down fun-overhaul there would be a chance of FM10 being an improvement (in fun). But until that risk is well and truly taken I can only imagine that each year will be some variation of the max fun achieved so far, with a high chance of diluting features interfering with that possibility. This isn't to say that as an overall game it won't continue to improve with a conservative model, just that max fun is limited in this approach.

So is it a bit like PES 2009?

i.e. PES 2009 isn't a poor game, but it just feels a whole lot less fun than PES5/6 and feels a bit dated? Upgrades for the sake of upgrades?

Replaces "PES" with "FM".

The only reason PES will be better this year than it has been for a number of years (which from the screenshots and stuff on the internet looks like it will be) is because on the 09 incarnations FIFA didn't just beat them, they left them looking like anyone who walked into the ring with mike tyson at the age of 20.

Its a common trait with games, when they're unchallenged - as FIFA initially was it stagnates and then gets overtaken, which PES did to it, PES became unchallenged for a few years then FIFA did it to them. In our sub-niche of the football managing market, FM doesn't really have a competitor, LMA manager could have posed a challenge about 7/8 years ago, premier manager went to the gimmicky extreme; and EA have never been too bothered about really pushing the boat out in this area of the market, until FM gets a serious contender that actually outshines it and gets people moving away from it, then they can actually afford to be more lax than needed to win the customer base back.

It isn't just limited to these kinds of games, I've seen it happen with numerous others, the fight night series is a good one to look at, had no real contest so after FN1, FN2 and 3 were quite lazy in terms of developments, but then they picked it up again with 4.

When Pro Evo was king to every football fan wasn't Fifa selling just as many if not more copies than it still anyway, because of the licencing and so on? I've always thought Fifa was the best seller regardless of how good the games actually were. If what I'm saying is true how could it be that Pro Evo just rested on their laurels? Thinking about this further, the Japanese have always preferred Winning Eleven and given that the game is Japanese how can Pro Evo's demise be blamed on people preferring Fifa all of a sudden?

Personally regardless of what is said I think Konami have laid all this on themself tinkering with everything to do with how the games are played year after year until they lost sight of what made it so good in the first place, but that is just my thoughts.

As for Fight Night, Round 4 took on new developers from the EA stead and that led to a massive change in the game itself, some still prefer Round 3. EA as a company are the worst offenders at changing very little in all of their games every year until something comes along that forces them to change.

This discussion is going off on a tangent a tad, but I don't remember FM06 so I can't input anything to do with that.

Sold FM07 and have FM08. Really enjoyed the older versions. Don't think the m.e was better, I just think it was more fluid which gives the impression that it was better. If the FM09 M.E. was as fluid and less 'robotic', I am sure the we'd not be discussing this.

Maybe you have hit the nail on the head there, and Smac's views are pretty spot on too. Shame the thread has morphed into a Pes vs FIFA fest though.

I should note that CM0102 is my very fave CM/FM game. For a while I thought FM09 may be but finally the following spoilt it for me:

1 in 1000000 player errors happening match on match, sometimes more that 1 in a game.

AI Odds underdogs ALWAYS giving me a hard game!

Pathetic ball physics, bullet headers that fly over half the length of the pitch.

Corner bug.

Shakey screen syndrome.

Yesterday I was thinking of how I missed a 2d FM/CM worth playing, as the 3d FM is just not fun enough, and then I realised that FM06 was THE game that lasted me until the new FM (07) was released - which I hated.

It wasn't me making it a pes v fifa fest, I was using it as an example to look at game development and how much actually changes in one product when its on 'top' compared to the others. Right now FM is on top which means it has less to do each year, if/when the time comes that something outshines FM I would be pretty certain the next year we would have our best FM since the series began in its current version.

Interesting opinion there tigerhgrrrrrr and I happen to agree with Peter-evo's comments too.

Like you, I am finished with FM09 and I have reverted to an older version that I particularly enjoyed (in my case, this is last year's FM08).

Why have I gone back to FM08? Well, quite simply, I thought it was an awesome edition of the game. It works quickly and smoothly on my machine, and when I watch matches, I feel that the experience is better than on 09. The play looks more fluid and thus the player movement looks more natural. It seems to me that there is far less repetition in the FM08 match representation than there is in the FM09 one. So you can see, I enjoy this version for many of the same reasons you prefer FM06.

I recently played around on FM07 and created a thread discussing my 'walk down memory lane'. You can see it here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=137818

Essentially, I reached some similar conclusions to those stated in this thread. I realised that FM has both come a long way and stalled along the way to FM09. For instance, there are lots of things to make a manager's life easier in FM08 and FM09 but the progression in tactics and team talks in those versions is extremely disappointing. In addition to this, somewhere along the line the simple functionality of FM07 has been lost. While playing FM07, I felt that it was dynamic and quicker but I also found myself craving that little bit more detail that is in FM08 but also glad that there wasn't so much detail as in FM09. That, along with the match representation, is probably why FM08 is my favourite version at the moment.

Regards,

C.

It wasn't me making it a pes v fifa fest, I was using it as an example to look at game development and how much actually changes in one product when its on 'top' compared to the others. Right now FM is on top which means it has less to do each year, if/when the time comes that something outshines FM I would be pretty certain the next year we would have our best FM since the series began in its current version.

Apologies - that will teach me to comment on something I only skim-read!

Agree with Crouchdinho too, for me its the lack of control in FM09 that kills it for me. Was loving how player personalities came alive though.

Rose tinted glasses mixed with nostalgia when loaded up.

I still feel CM03/04 was the best game SI have produced so far... but that's because I have emotional investment in it, and I know that.

While Konami have undoubtedly taken Pro Evo backwards in recent years, as confirmed by a recent play of PES5, the same can't be said for FM.

I admit that I didn't enjoy FM2008 as much, but apart from that each new game has been an improvement. FM2009 is the best of the series and I've never felt like going back to an earlier game with it. During a point of severe frustration with FM2008 I did go back to FM2007 briefly, and at the very most 08 wasn't an improvement on 07. Otherwise though imo it's been constant improvement from SI.

So is it a bit like PES 2009?

i.e. PES 2009 isn't a poor game, but it just feels a whole lot less fun than PES5/6 and feels a bit dated? Upgrades for the sake of upgrades?

Replaces "PES" with "FM".

I agree with this, actually. Great metaphor, I just wish people wouldn't expand and argue the point!

The day I loaded up the 08 demo, I felt the ME regress. I couldn't put my finger on it. Passing isn't as intelligent or smooth, players make bad decisions- n.b. I don't mean they have poor decision making, but they do things no player does- there's no longer the element of control (with regards to tempo, passing style, d-line), tactics are counter-initiative most of the time, removal of arrows has made players act worse instead of better. I was told that these things would be improved upon for 09, but they weren't. It no longer feels like I'm watching football. It's boring and unengaged.

07's ME had none of these faults. There were a few it did have- centre backs couldn't mark lone strikers very well, headers were too accurate. But all in all it was a much better ME than this one. If you were to reduce the accuracy of headers and improve that marking system, then there'd be no need for any tweaks to the ME after 7.0.2.

I agree with this, actually. Great metaphor, I just wish people wouldn't expand and argue the point!

The day I loaded up the 08 demo, I felt the ME regress. I couldn't put my finger on it. Passing isn't as intelligent or smooth, players make bad decisions- n.b. I don't mean they have poor decision making, but they do things no player does- there's no longer the element of control (with regards to tempo, passing style, d-line), tactics are counter-initiative most of the time, removal of arrows has made players act worse instead of better. I was told that these things would be improved upon for 09, but they weren't. It no longer feels like I'm watching football. It's boring and unengaged.

07's ME had none of these faults. There were a few it did have- centre backs couldn't mark lone strikers very well, headers were too accurate. But all in all it was a much better ME than this one. If you were to reduce the accuracy of headers and improve that marking system, then there'd be no need for any tweaks to the ME after 7.0.2.

Exactly. In FM09 even worldclass players regularly make schoolboy errors. In FM06, with the excusable exceptions, players generally do the "right thing" - and I have only played at lower league levels with 06! Have pondered GillsMans reply to my OP, you really do have to load up and play to compare the 2 games but one "sticks out like a sore thumb" comparison is when a full back gets pressured on his own goal line. In FM09 mostly the result is a corner (needlessly surrendered, often by dribbling the ball the wrong way!), in FM06 mostly the result is a throw in, the good old "hoof for touch" (as it would be in real life, hence my perceived need for the OP).

Has anyone tried this comparison today, I mean 06 & 09 specific?

I've done 07 and 09 comparisons, but not 06. Reason being, I liked 07 more.

I went back to playing 03-04 a couple of months ago. To be honest it isn't that much different from 09 and considering that was 4-5 versions ago its pathetic the amount of changes and improvements that have actually happened.

Have just realised I Havent even patched FM06 when I re-installed! - though I shall now. A good game that plays well straight out of the box, what a walk down memory lane that is!

I entirely agree with sucks. I too recently went back to 03/04 which along with 99/00 is my favourite version. The reason is simple. All the added features from 07 onwards seem designed to 'wind me up'. I played over 500 matches on 07 with three clubs in League 1, 2 and Conf. Two promotions and three relegations. But at no stage could I ever get in control. I was always in a run of winning 10 games out of 12 or losing 16 games out of 20 !! And no realistic reason for the change in fortunes. And I gave up counting how many games 'I really should have won.............'. Generally responses to most of the features only end up shooting you in the foot. My favourite is the one where you comment on the effect of an injury to a good player (in both 07 and 08 ). If you say he will be badly missed, his understudies lose all their confidence. If you say you have adequate cover he gets a strop on and it takes 6 months after his return from injury to get him back to normal. Thats just one add on of many that is there just to wind us up.03/04 is largely featureless by comparison but at least you seem to get response (albeit over time) when setting instructions to players and the team. I can play the game and analyse what I am doing right and what I am doing wrong and slowly but surely move my team and club forwards. Yes I miss the added features of the last few versions but frankly few of them appear to be there other than as a trip up. I am going to stick to 03/04 and just go back to using a little imagination.

(Perhaps I should point out that in over 10 years of playing Champ/Football Manager I always start in the lower leagues and never share/steal others tactics, preferring to work it out myself).

Is there any good updates for 07, as i think thats the last playable version

Is there any good updates for 07, as i think thats the last playable version

There are Weegie updates, Google "Weegie updates FM07"

the last one seems to be from 2007 tho mate

They had them from Jan 09 iirc. Regardless, why do you need an update?

So that i can start a new season of fm 07, anyone seen the jan update around, cnat find it myself.

cheers

I went back to FM 08 after the final 09 patch.If Id have continued with 09 I would probebly have needed a new screen by now as the poor representation of football delivered by the "3 D expierience" was frustrating to say the least!

In my opinion the 3 D element of the game is its downfall as even after 2 patches it appears to be barely up to "beta" standards with it failing to show even a semi-accurate representaion of the commentry & world class players doing stupid things,repeatedly, that would see them dropped from a sunday league team.Add to that the strange physics engine that can see a header off the woodwork rebound 1/2 the length of the pitch!

Compared to 08,which has its faults,the overall match engine offers a poor expierience aswell giving the user no feeling of being "in control" during the match i.e looking for a late goal?....play "all out attack".........& pass back to your own keeper from inside the opponents half so he can "pass" it out for a throw in.......realistic NOT. Oh & the offside model is seriously flawed aswell but thats another thread!Co-ownership issues still not fixed either but hey,who cares,the disk makes a good "coaster" so alls not lost

To sum up IMO 09 was a major backward step where the most important part,the match itself,is the major let down failing as it does to even look like football a lot of the time.