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The point of a Youth team coach??


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Well, a youth coach only has the responsibility of coaching your youth team. Of course, in every aspect, just like a Goalkeeping coach would only do training involving goalkeeping.

Your youth coach will not be involved with your reserves or senior team. However, your normal coaches will also coach your youth team.

Maximize your youth coaches by letting them train your players at what they are good at. If your coach or youth coach is good in training defense, then thats what you let him concentrate at.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gubbs:

Uh icon_rolleyes.gif he coaches youth players? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think about it for a second instead of rolling your eyes... it's not a stupid question at all, probably something a lot of people have wondered.

The one thing in favour of using Youth Team or First Team coaches would be for the sake of realism, but from what I know that's it. They demand lower wages, but still more than 50% of what a "Coach" would require, and as such it seems it's a better deal financially to hire them as just coaches.

That is, of course, unless there's something hidden in there. However if a coach focused solely on either seniors or youth did have a better efficiency; why not just come out and say that? Or is the effect something else, like having Youth Coaches improves the quality of "Freds"?

Heck, I don't even know if "Working with Youngsters" applies to coaching young players (And if so is "young" classified as in Youth training, or a certain age?), or if it has to do with bringing youngsters through.

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As Bongo says.

I haven't seen any evidence that having a youth coach is any more advantageous to coaching youths than a normal coach, but there may be financial advantages to hiring a coach as a youth coach (ie he may ask for lower wages as a youth coach).

Of course, it's arguably cheaper to pay the higer wages and have him as a coach rather than higher a second coach to do that role. This is especially true considering the strict quotas on coaches, and the lack of evidence that a youth coach is any more effective than a coach.

Imho, youth coaches counting as one of the number of coaches you can employ is a bit rubbish.

If the club has a youth academy, that Academy will most likely have a full range of staff that are completely independent from the senior (first and reserve) teams.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lathund:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gubbs:

Uh icon_rolleyes.gif he coaches youth players? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think about it for a second instead of rolling your eyes... it's not a stupid question at all, probably something a lot of people have wondered.

The one thing in favour of using Youth Team or First Team coaches would be for the sake of realism, but from what I know that's it. They demand lower wages, but still more than 50% of what a "Coach" would require, and as such it seems it's a better deal financially to hire them as just coaches.

That is, of course, unless there's something hidden in there. However if a coach focused solely on either seniors or youth did have a better efficiency; why not just come out and say that? Or is the effect something else, like having Youth Coaches improves the quality of "Freds"?

Heck, I don't even know if "Working with Youngsters" applies to coaching young players (And if so is "young" classified as in Youth training, or a certain age?), or if it has to do with bringing youngsters through. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think it would be nice, if we had this clarified. Good post. icon14.gif

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I don't believe that having a youth coach, coach, or first team coach, makes any difference on the level or quality of training they provide. That's down to the staff member's attributes and reputation IMO, although there's evidence in the Tactics and Training forums that suggest that players playing helps them progress more than training alone.

Personally, I just have an Assistant Manager, then as many coaches who can perform both 1st team, reserve and youth coaching, as possible. Youth Coach, First Team Coach are therefore pretty pointless to me, but I understand that in "title" alone, they perhaps add somewhat to the "realism".

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I was wondering about as well, but understood when I decided to play a low club in a low league as Servette is at the beginning of the game.

The point with youth coaches is that they will allow a small club to prepare correctly young prospects, obviously, but also:

- in a small club you can’t have 9 coaches hired at the same time to hope the 7 stars with your senior team anyway

- youth coaches with good “working with youngsters†will better train players than if only senior coaches are present in the club

- in a small club you can afford to keep promising youngsters more easily than stars in your first team, training them well two seasons almost in anonymity may just be enough for you to keep them with you and begin a legendary run for your club

- in a small club it’s likely the board will prefer invest in youth infrastructure

- in a small club well trained youngsters are a good way to get instant money

If you’re playing with a top team, the youth squad can be left to other clubs. It’s up to every one, depends on the trip you’re having while playing FM. I used to play with Chelsea in my previous game and the amount of money, the power of attraction and the quality of the training you can set (7 stars all) made the youth team really useless. I mean, Chelsea has all needed to attract anyone in no time, this doesn’t mean it’s cheap, but you hardly have any problems signing wonderkids. This is far from truth with medium or small clubs, and therefore the only hope lies in youth training which is cheaper, hoping you’ll be able to train a batch of medium potential players, sell them and keep the wonderkids for you. But this scenario requires you stay about 3 seasons in your club, fighting as you can with your first team, while lazy little youngsters slowly improve their stats (I’m watching this every 3 days).

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I have quite often messages from my Ass. Manager about the progress of my future wonderkids with Servette, where I didn't had any while playing with Chelsea and only senior coaches during 4 seasons, in fact my youth team was only there to provide me with the needed amount of "Players trained at club" for the CL.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gubbs:

Uh icon_rolleyes.gif he coaches youth players? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read the question again.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> What does a youth team coach do that a normal coach can't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A normal coach can coach youth players icon_rolleyes.gif

I don't think it makes any difference. I always have my coaches as just normal coaches so they can do youth and senior.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jsheard:

What does a youth team coach do that a normal coach can't. And once you have one how do you maximise his use?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In FM gaming terms , I think they're pointless. Especially in 8.0.2 when you're restricted in the number of coaches you can employ, I would never bother with a youth coach. Many coaches have 20 or a high rating in 'coaching youngsters' so it's more effective to have one set of coaches coach the whole squad.

Having youth and fitness specialists might be a touch of realism, but SI need to make them work effectively in the game, i.e. actually provide an effective difference, which is that the OP was asking about. icon_smile.gif

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Aye, they seem a bit pointless and just mean you have fewer coaches to spread around your senior team.

On a similar note I've just taken over Sampdoria and they have 2 specialist goalkeeping coaches! What on earth is the point of that when I am limited in how many total coaches I can have and I could only get rid of one of them if I paid £500k compensation icon_mad.gif To add to the irritation I had an utterly useless Assistant manager who was no good at training anything, but was on a 5 year contract and demanded £1 million to be released!

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by glamdring:

Aye, they seem a bit pointless and just mean you have fewer coaches to spread around your senior team.

On a similar note I've just taken over Sampdoria and they have 2 specialist goalkeeping coaches! What on earth is the point of that when I am limited in how many total coaches I can have and I could only get rid of one of them if I paid £500k compensation icon_mad.gif To add to the irritation I had an utterly useless Assistant manager who was no good at training anything, but was on a 5 year contract and demanded £1 million to be released! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fulvio Pea (in-game Sampdoria assman) is the Sampdoria U-20 manager, not the real ass-man. The real one is a french one but i can't remember his name. Another fault of the italian researcher...

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As many others have said there is no point. Perhaps SI designed a more complex model of training that actually had a use for youth, gk and fitness coaches, but then they implemented a mush more simple model.

The whole staff section of the game is a bit ***** if you ask me. Why do physios have coaching stats, or why do scouts have them, or why do coaches have physio stats etc etc. It just makes no sense.

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Try looking at this another way chaps. If you are managing in the Premiership or other top division outside the top 6 or so clubs you will have difficulty stealing the top coaches away from them but I have found that if you look at the top teams youth coaches there are some good ones there who will come to your lesser rated team on a full time coaching contract.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lathund:

The one thing in favour of using Youth Team or First Team coaches would be for the sake of realism, but from what I know that's it. They demand lower wages, but still more than 50% of what a "Coach" would require, and as such it seems it's a better deal financially to hire them as just coaches.

That is, of course, unless there's something hidden in there. However if a coach focused solely on either seniors or youth did have a better efficiency; why not just come out and say that? Or is the effect something else, like having Youth Coaches improves the quality of "Freds"?

Heck, I don't even know if "Working with Youngsters" applies to coaching young players (And if so is "young" classified as in Youth training, or a certain age?), or if it has to do with bringing youngsters through. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been wondering about these staff position, but I'm sure that it's not totally about wages or have anything to do with "Working with youngster"

1. I agree youth coaches cost less than normal coach, but about first team coaches, that's not true. You can find many 1st team coaches that earn way more than normal coaches (Boro Primorac in Arsenal is an ideal example).

However, even in this financial point, Youth coaches still seem to be pretty useless. Here's why:

1A. They only train youth players which means players who are having youth contract. As soon as the youngster is eligible for a professional contract and is handed one. He's no longer be trained by Youth Coach. This leads to 1B

1B. Usually at the start of the game, you often look to snap a lot of youngsters from other team to your club and of course you have to offer them a full time contract (not youth contract) to attract them to your club. So as soon as they turn 17 and become professional, Youth Coaches no longer train them. This proves "Working with Youngsters" is not really something like a must have for a Youth coach, because it does not have much use.

So you might less for Youth coaches but they are almost useless.

=====

2. "Working with Youngsters" IMO is not something to help the youth coaches to train youth players better. It's something that guide you to train youth players better. Take a look at a youngster's coach report. You will find comments from your coaches about the player's training and development. If your coach have at least 18 "Working with Youngsters" attribute, he will tell you the player should learn from who among senior players. Usually the default coach report is from you Ass.man., so high stat of "Working with Youngster" is somehow required for ass.man. If your assistant doesn't have good stat at this, you can still find out by asking coaching report from other coaches (those who have high stat of "Working with Youngsters").

========

3. My opinion about Youth Coaches is generally the contrary with those above. I don't think Youth coaches are for purpose of training Youth players better because they train only youth players. First-team coaches are for this purpose, Youth coaches not! Youth coaches are for purpose of offloading the heavy work of coaches. This makes more sense because if otherwise, there would also be Youth Fitness coach and Youth GK coaches as well to train youth players better icon_razz.gif

If I have a good youth coach in my team, I will surely offer him a coach contract so that my senior players can benefit his coaching quality.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TFS:

Perhaps better youth coaches mean better players promoted through the academy? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All young players are automatically promoted when they are too old to play for youth team. Of course better coaches will produce better players, but that goes for coaches and 1st team coaches too, it does not make youth coaches any more special. Normally when you have a good youth coach, you will want him to train your senior players too, except that you have already had an excellent coaching team for senior players.

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I think you have mis-interpreted what I said, by better players promoted through the academy I don't mean the u18's getting promoted to the reserves, I mean players entering the U18's (i.e. the new regens). If this isn't the case then I really think SI should evaluate the current system.

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Edit: if this is the case, they should make it clearer. Too many features that SI may or may have not included are too ambiguous on their effects, I know there has to be a element of unknown in the game but in these situations the player allways presumes the worst. If a manager has a choice between full star coaching or not (without indication of improved regens) they're allways going to choose more stars. It's a matter I believe needs clearing up because at the moment it appears to be lack of effort on SI's part.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TFS:

I think you have mis-interpreted what I said, by better players promoted through the academy I don't mean the u18's getting promoted to the reserves, I mean players entering the U18's (i.e. the new regens). If this isn't the case then I really think SI should evaluate the current system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt that's the case - why would having a dedicated U-18 coach improve the Academy?

(Note the U-18s is not the Academy).

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scotty Walds:

I've employed a Brazilian youth coach, and just had a Brazilan newgen come through into the youth team... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's interesting.

It seems to support TFS' theory.

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I've just had a look through my save for teams with foreign youth Coaches in britain but I haven't seen any regens of the same nationality at their club. However teams with foreign regens do tend to have staff (could be any staff, including non coaching) of the same nationality. So that evidence doesn't really it.

However, it could just be coincedence but my first year of regens back when I still had good youth coaches (at newcastle) had a couple of could be stars, whereas there have been none since I fired/resigned-them-as-coaches and the potentials generally seem lower despite significant improvements to the training facilities.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Half-time Orange:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scotty Walds:

I've employed a Brazilian youth coach, and just had a Brazilan newgen come through into the youth team... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's interesting.

It seems to support TFS' theory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats something that is well known that if you have a foreign member of staff you are more likely to get a young player of that nationality.

The main point should be does having better youth coaches imporve the chances of getting better regens? Otherwise where is the point in youth coaches?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lathund:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gubbs:

Uh icon_rolleyes.gif he coaches youth players? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think about it for a second instead of rolling your eyes... it's not a stupid question at all, probably something a lot of people have wondered.

The one thing in favour of using Youth Team or First Team coaches would be for the sake of realism, but from what I know that's it. They demand lower wages, but still more than 50% of what a "Coach" would require, and as such it seems it's a better deal financially to hire them as just coaches.

That is, of course, unless there's something hidden in there. However if a coach focused solely on either seniors or youth did have a better efficiency; why not just come out and say that? Or is the effect something else, like having Youth Coaches improves the quality of "Freds"?

Heck, I don't even know if "Working with Youngsters" applies to coaching young players (And if so is "young" classified as in Youth training, or a certain age?), or if it has to do with bringing youngsters through. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that "Working with youngsters" is an important attribute (used in conjunction with "Hard training") in getting the right shape for a younger (Under 21) player's attributes. I have noticed a difference - but not massive - when coaches have a high rating for this attribute.

Having said that, the database doesn't seem to reflect the correlation between youth coach and being good with youngsters.

There are 80 coaches with 20/20 for "Working with youngsters".

There are 120 youth team coaches with 20/20.

But more tellingly, there are hundreds and hundreds of youth team coaches with less than 5 out of 20 for "Working with youngsters".

So, either the database has tons of crap youth team coaches, or the "Working with youngsters" score isn't related to training at all. You choose.

icon_smile.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bomjr:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lathund:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gubbs:

Uh icon_rolleyes.gif he coaches youth players? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think about it for a second instead of rolling your eyes... it's not a stupid question at all, probably something a lot of people have wondered.

The one thing in favour of using Youth Team or First Team coaches would be for the sake of realism, but from what I know that's it. They demand lower wages, but still more than 50% of what a "Coach" would require, and as such it seems it's a better deal financially to hire them as just coaches.

That is, of course, unless there's something hidden in there. However if a coach focused solely on either seniors or youth did have a better efficiency; why not just come out and say that? Or is the effect something else, like having Youth Coaches improves the quality of "Freds"?

Heck, I don't even know if "Working with Youngsters" applies to coaching young players (And if so is "young" classified as in Youth training, or a certain age?), or if it has to do with bringing youngsters through. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think it would be nice, if we had this clarified. Good post. icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I second that. Someone from SI should answer to this.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TFS:

I think you have mis-interpreted what I said, by better players promoted through the academy I don't mean the u18's getting promoted to the reserves, I mean players entering the U18's (i.e. the new regens). If this isn't the case then I really think SI should evaluate the current system. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you meant the new in-take youth players. In this case, it's not specifically chosen by youth coaches. New in-take youth's nationality varies depending on scouting knowledge. At the moment of having new in-take youths (July, start of season), new youth players' nationality will be based on your scouting knowledge during last season. If you scout a lot in South american, chances are that you will have several more south american youths arriving.

And as it's said in the game, the scouting knowledge is based on staff personels nationality and scouts' works. That's why it's best to have scouts of different nationalities to benefice their scouting knowledge.

Again, youth coaches play no major part in the new in-take youth players selection.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawshiels:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lathund:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gubbs:

Uh icon_rolleyes.gif he coaches youth players? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think about it for a second instead of rolling your eyes... it's not a stupid question at all, probably something a lot of people have wondered.

The one thing in favour of using Youth Team or First Team coaches would be for the sake of realism, but from what I know that's it. They demand lower wages, but still more than 50% of what a "Coach" would require, and as such it seems it's a better deal financially to hire them as just coaches.

That is, of course, unless there's something hidden in there. However if a coach focused solely on either seniors or youth did have a better efficiency; why not just come out and say that? Or is the effect something else, like having Youth Coaches improves the quality of "Freds"?

Heck, I don't even know if "Working with Youngsters" applies to coaching young players (And if so is "young" classified as in Youth training, or a certain age?), or if it has to do with bringing youngsters through. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that "Working with youngsters" is an important attribute (used in conjunction with "Hard training") in getting the right shape for a younger (Under 21) player's attributes. I have noticed a difference - but not massive - when coaches have a high rating for this attribute.

Having said that, the database doesn't seem to reflect the correlation between youth coach and being good with youngsters.

There are 80 coaches with 20/20 for "Working with youngsters".

There are 120 youth team coaches with 20/20.

But more tellingly, there are hundreds and hundreds of youth team coaches with less than 5 out of 20 for "Working with youngsters".

So, either the database has tons of crap youth team coaches, or the "Working with youngsters" score isn't related to training at all. You choose.

icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've also found that a common occurance is that coaches who are happy being youth coaches often have poor working with youngsters and vice versa for 1st team coaches. In my view this is mainly yet another gimmicky feature intended to add realism but with no real effect. Personally I'd only use 1st team coaches or youth coaches as cheap 'pressure relieving' solutions to reduce the workload of my top coaches, and only if I was a top club with a big 'budget' for coaching staff.

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Well, as an experiment I decided to hire two excellent youth coaches this season, John Park & Piero Bosaglia on my newcastle save (just finished 5th season) and low and behold I have by far and away my best group of regens since the first season, in fact a 15 year old Am/Fwd who looks to be the best 15 year old regen I have ever had across any FM2008.

Screen of new regens

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9374/newyouthdv6.jpg

Screen of Darren Wyatt (touted as the next Wayne Rooney)

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/8967/dwyattlf4.jpg

I've got, according to the board, "one of the best youth academies in the world". But I've had it for a few seasons. I have never across any FM2008 save seen a regen have more than 5* potential. Exciting times for newcastle and england! If only I had better role models for him (but then, it wouldn't really feel like Newcastle). Coincedence?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TFS:

Well, as an experiment I decided to hire two excellent youth coaches this season, John Park & Piero Bosaglia on my newcastle save (just finished 5th season) and low and behold I have by far and away my best group of regens since the first season, in fact a 15 year old Am/Fwd who looks to be the best 15 year old regen I have ever had across any FM2008.

Screen of new regens

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9374/newyouthdv6.jpg

Screen of Darren Wyatt (touted as the next Wayne Rooney)

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/8967/dwyattlf4.jpg

I've got, according to the board, "one of the best youth academies in the world". But I've had it for a few seasons. I have never across any FM2008 save seen a regen have more than 5* potential. Exciting times for newcastle and england! If only I had better role models for him (but then, it wouldn't really feel like Newcastle). Coincedence? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think not. Very interesting indeed. Do tell us what kind of academy intake you get next season too. Hmmm.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na3c0:

1. I agree youth coaches cost less than normal coach, but about first team coaches, that's not true. You can find many 1st team coaches that earn way more than normal coaches (Boro Primorac in Arsenal is an ideal example). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's because he already has a job, and is perhaps earning that much in real life. Try offering a contract to an unemployed coach, and they'll demand less as First Team or Youth coaches.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

However, even in this financial point, Youth coaches still seem to be pretty useless. Here's why: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You say that as if I was claiming that youth coaches were a good deal financially...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TFS

Coincedence? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. Try saving just before your regens pop up, and then do it over and over again. You'll get different results each time. Sometimes very poor players, sometimes great etc. It's possible that having great youth coaches matter (Or that they don't), but it is still a matter of chance. Any crappy club CAN produce an amazing talent, they're just very very unlikely to.

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