mental attributes: a suggestion

This post is really just to throw out an idea. I have thought through the idea but i recognise that there are some flaws to what I propose (for one it requires a complicated system) but i also think there are flaws with the current system. So essentially here's what I've thought about. I'm not 100% sure I think it should be implemented in game so seeing what you guys think.

I've thought for some while that there are some massive flaws in the way mental attributes work. Take, for example, determination. It is ridiculous to suggest that a players determination remains largely the same throughout a career, even throughout a season. I think a player's determination fluctuates depending on his surroundings, his love for his club, how his club is doing etc. I doubt whether Steven Gerrard would be so determined at any other club. I also doubt whether Etoo would be as determined playing for Man City as he would for Barcelona.

Let's take teamwork as another example. Players play with different levels of teamwork depending on who they're playing with. I know this isn't a perfect example but I play for a hockey club. When I play for the 2nd team I play more selfishly because I'm one of the best players and don't necessarily trust all my team-mates. When I play for the 1sts I recognise that I'm one of the worst players and tend to move the ball on for other players to work their magic. I think the same can be said for footballers. When they play in better teams they play less selfishly (I realise this is a generalisation and not true for all footballers).

I think I can make a similar case for every single mental attribute. They don't stay the same. I appreciate that changes in motivation are included in game and I don't fully understand how they affect the match engine, but i believe the changes to individual attributes are minimal and this doesn't properly represent real life.

I propose that all mental attributes become hidden (although assistant managers comment on the mental side of the game should increase) and become variable (within limits). This would make man management all the more important and greatly influence the way a manager can shape a developing player. When a player moves club the mental attributes would be revised. perhaps their composure would fall because they are worried about not impressing straight away but as they become established composure rises again. Maybe their work rate would increase because they want to impress but as they become more established they get lazier. The attributes would also change with manager interaction and change slowly over time depending on situations at clubs.

I feel this would more accurately portray the true world of football and increase the importance of man management. However, I think this idea should be approached with caution. I do not want mental stats to wildly fluctuate from week to week and a manager's influence to be overplayed. For example, I might want to tell Adriano that he needs to be more of a team player if he wants to make the first team. In some circumstances he might improve (teamwork increases 3 points and after a few weeks my assistant notes that Adriano is playing more like a team player in training), in others he might be stubborn and disagree, become unhappy and ask to leave. It might even produce a fall in teamwork. I don't want to tell Adriano to be more of a teamplayer and him to immediately have 20 for teamwork.

I hope I've explained this well maybe I've lost the idea with too many examples so I'll quickly summarise it here:

Hidden mental attributes with the capabilities to fluctuate depending on circumstances.

thoughts?

This is one of the best ideas I've heard on here, but you're probably right it's too complicated to implement.

It's definitely something SI should think about.

Truly a work of genius.

Fantastic:thup:

I totally agree with everything you say - hope SI read this

YES! this is a good idea/

Your idea certainly has merit and would be worth considering.

However, as you point out, it could be quite tricky to implement and code, particularly in terms of the variations depending on circumstances (as some of these stats could have quite a high number of influencing factors).

Also, I don't think that all of the current mental stats are suitable to be treated in this manner, which would then result in the need to necessitate another distinct category of stats.

Finally, the reality is that some players will always be harder working, more determined, or a better team player than others. I feel this is what those mental stats are meant to indicate; a 20 in determination indicates that the player is one of the hardest workers in the footballing world, driven to succeed, while a 10 indicates he's pretty average in terms of drive. The circumstantial aspects of his teammates, his manager, and whatever other factors that influence are supposed to be captured in other areas, most notably morale. In that sense, you can still have a 20 Team Work-stat player that refuses to link well with his teammates because he has half of them listed in his 'hated players'.

Yes defs some good ideas there and it would be interesting to know what SI think about these.

I do find however that players dont always perform to their maximum ability in terms of mental stats (and indeed their technical and physical). It all depends on circumstance already; whether the player is consistent (this is a very important factor) and many other things such as morale, motivation, general happiness, faith in their manager, fitness, importance of match etc.

For example, when Gerrard is enjoying playing for the club he loves, has a superb morale and is in top condition for an important game, you can be sure he will give his all and his elite determination and mental drive will shine through. However, if he is unhappy for whatever reason it may be, maybe an unknown manger has taken control and he is worried whether he can take the club in the right direction, or even if he just isnt at full fitness, his drive and hunger will not be as evident as it otherwise would in ideal circumstances.

This is what I think anyway and so I do believe (to a certain extent) that your ideas are actually already in place in FM with such attributes as "consistency and important matches", and such factors as happiness, motivation and fitness. I might be wrong. What you think?

Very good idea Makes perfect sense too.

As an adition to this I think current ability should be shown and potential ability should be free to fluctuate depending on your suggestions of the hidden mental attributes. If professionalism and determination is up then the player will get better much faster. If someone is given the chance to play a a high level they will get better faster.

At the minute, if a player is playing for a non league team he will be very limited to his progression even if he was to transfer to man utd he would never make it.

Just an idea and i do apolgise for taking over your thread for a minute

lol if they implement this there will be 24467555754 bugs since were talking about SI

Hidden mental attributes with the capabilities to fluctuate depending on circumstances.

As Maran says, doesn't this already exist?

Check your motivation screen in match (Home Stats or Away Stats, choose the toggle button in the top right hand corner of that screen to get the motivation screen), and you'll see it can fluctuate widely for each individual player both in one specific match and over time. Your man-management ability can provide an impact to alter motivation - whether for the better or the worse. Morale is obviously easier to track, and that has a function in this too.

So what you want is a visual fluctuation of stats?

Motivation and such already have a huge impact on player performance which indicates that his mental stats drop, although it's not visual because as a manager you only have the base idea of how good a player's capabilities. You don't see the mental stats drop, but a player with a Determination of 19 might only be able to perform up to, say 9, in a period where he has "Very Poor" morale and motivation.

Mental stat changes based on environmental and personal issues are already in existence. Making it visible will only make the game even more simple to get a grip of, and harder to get an overview of.

I do not support this suggestion as I simply don't find it necessary, or even an improvement.

You just have to look at Newcastle last season to see a squad of players for whom determination and workrate plummeted due to upheavals behind the scenes. I'd like to see over-interference by the board/chairman or bad management affecting the players in this way. Good suggestion!

I think I'm with C-Mon on this: motivation, morale, favoured personnel, happiness, and "gel" with the club are all tremendous modifiers on the mental aspect of the game. So I don't think that all Determination 19 players demonstrate their 19 Determination all of the time.

However, I think being able to look at that and say "Yes, in general, this is a Determined player who works hard during training, responds well to criticism, and doesn't give up when we're a goal down" is a very useful thing. That's the sort of thing my scouts could tell me after chatting with some former teammates, coaches, etc, and surely something my coaches should be telling me about.

Many of the other attributes are even more visible in-game: Decisions. Anticipation. Off the Ball movement. Positioning. These are all very important, and I don't think you'd be doing us a service by making them all hidden.

I'm much more in favour of Dave C's "Slow Reveal" suggestion, namely, that when you start a game, ALL attributes are hidden, and that it requires multiple scoutings of a player and even some time with the player on your squad before every attribute is revealed. In his idea, physical stats were the easiest to spot, with the technical ones later, then the mental attributes after. (If I recall, he had each separated into two different categories, as well, based on how easy they were to identify, based on his experiences as a researcher.)

Very good idea mate

Very good post!

I appreciate the feedback guys.

I do realise that in game morale etc does impact the way mental attributes influence the match engine and one of the problems with my suggestion is that I don't understand how this really works.

But I think when a player has low morale I think it just results in a general fall in effectiveness across the board whereas in reality it would have very specific influences on individual attributes, as would moving club, falling out with a team-mate etc.

I also understand that the mental attributes represent a general level for this player's mental character. However, I feel something like work rate can really change over the course of a career and this isn't represented in game.

I also understand that it's quite an ambitious change that would take a lot of work and could cause a lot of bugs.

Keep the feedback coming!

Also Dave C's slow reveal idea does sound good (and I would support that as an improvement) but it still doesn't reflect the way a player's mentality can change.

Maybe determination was a bad example because you're right that in general a 19 determination player is determined and always will be, despite his surroundings having some influence. And this is replicated in game.

But I think teamwork, flair, work rate, aggression, bravery can all be influenced by a manager and yet in game can't.

And don't also forget that "outside" the club make real players happier or miserable

Imagine if you had a barney with the "wag" would you be happy the next day!!!

I also think that the players that the individual plays with week in, week out affects this, along with team talks etc...

Great post

Imagine if you had a barney with the "wag" would you be happy the next day!!!

Well I know if I was Ashley Cole I'd always be a happy man with a wife like that. Ahhh Cheryl:rolleyes:

I don't like OP's idea at all, i prefer to just have hidden 'insert right word here' (sorry my english is shitty) affecting player's mentality in game rather than having something so obvious as seeing their mentality attributes changing all the time.

This is a very good idea, and would go a long way towards responding to that perennial problem that every FM save feels essentially the same.

Well I know if I was Ashley Cole I'd always be a happy man with a wife like that. Ahhh Cheryl:rolleyes:

Or If I was Peter Crouch I'd score 3 a game...

Seems like a good idea, right now I can spot a superstar after 1 scouting assignment and then its just a case of buying him for whatever extortionate fee Mallorca FC want (usually 3-50 times his value). Yeh while your at it SI change transfers. Maybe a new game sometime? This one you keep reskining is nice and all but its like 5 years old now.

Seems like a good idea, right now I can spot a superstar after 1 scouting assignment and then its just a case of buying him for whatever extortionate fee Mallorca FC want (usually 3-50 times his value). Yeh while your at it SI change transfers. Maybe a new game sometime? This one you keep reskining is nice and all but its like 5 years old now.

Troll