Defense is horribly coded in this game

This game really infuriates me, I can overlook this stuff when I have a world class team and this bs doesn't happen as much, but as a worse team, the flaws in the coding of this game are ubiquitous and, for me, make the game unplayably hard.

Here's what I have a problem with:

1. Wingers are impossible to defend against

What the hell am I supposed to do to stop them? If I play with a high defensive line, the AI always puts lobbed through balls over my fullbacks and the wingers run onto it. OK, so I play with a deeper defensive line. Now instead of lobbed through balls, the AI just passes it to the wingers and they literally run by my fullbacks. This doesn't happen only with poor (relatively) fullbacks, at my last game as Udinese, I had Mazzarani and Sakho at fullbacks and both of their CAs were anove 170, yet we had the same problem. The only difference was that my centerbacks could defend crosses better so it didn't really matter that those 2 were beat all the time. It's like Wynne and Beasley in the USA-Costa Rica game, the fullbacks are USELESS on defense. They rarely, if ever, block crosses even though I have induced carpal-tunnel syndrome on myself (hint- make it a 1-click option to always close down wingers) with all the clicks it takes to close down the wingers and show them onto their weaker foot. Who cares, the wingers just dribble by. And don't get me started on the egregiously obvious bug where the wingers don't cross immediately but instead try to dribble down the byline and get a shot on goal. Ridiculous, how was this not noticed? It happens EVERY GAME.

2. Centerbacks are mentally challenged.

Both me and the AI always have unmarked players in the box. Do I really have to "tight mark" every single player on Opposition instructions? If so, that's ridiculous. CB positioning is also atrocious; whenever a winger escapes from a fullback (which is often), the centerback moves over to mark the winger and thereby leaves a forward completely unmarked. Surprise, the cross isn't blocked anyway and the open forward is hit.

And don't get me started on the "XXXXX misses the interception". When does this ever happen in real life? I've rarely seen a defender have a chance to intercept a pass/cross and fail, leading to a goal. You stick a foot out or you jump up and head it, jesus. I'm a horrible soccer player, but whenever a pass came my way which I had a chance to intercept, I stick my foot out and the ball hits the foot. In this game, the defenders apparently have massive mental issues and forget to intercept the cross or something. Goals are not scored off of missed interceptions, they are scored by poor positioning. Maybe it's poor coding, maybe you should say "XXX was not positioned correctly, he was responsible for the free header" or something like that, but not "XXXX missed the interception". That should never happen.

3. Long shots are overpowered.

I'm sure you agree with me. I would understand if Gerrard or Lampard regularly scored them (and they do), but random players who are not famous for shooting long will come up with absolute blinders against me. In my most recent game, Tuncay and Alfonso Alves both scored 30 yard strikes against me. Alves perhaps has the ability, but I've never seen Tuncay have a successful long shot (although, I admit, I don't watch Boro much, but I do watch a lot of Turkey games).

I'm going to respond now to some of the arguments which will be made:

"it's your tactics"- well duh, thanks. I'm using the most successful tactic set for this version and this stuff is still happening. The only changes I make is to set my defensive line to deep (if i don't do this, i concede 4-5 goals every time due to the wingers getting away) and sometimes to make the passing more direct if they are misplacing many passes.

"well in my game as Hull City, I won the premiership my first season and conceded 3 goals the whole season so obviously it's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with your tactics"- The problems which I have noticed are general game flaws or problems with coding. They affect everyone but to different degrees.

"teams talks blah blah blah"- I always check the effects after the match and my team talks are fine. This isn't the problem.

An additional question: I watch on key highlights. If a highlight begins, will it always end with the same result depending on whether or not I make a tactical change during the key hightlight?

Let's say I make a tactical change during the highlight- will it affect the outcome of the highlight or is it pre-determined? I fail to see how highlights are not predetermined because how would they be chosen otherwise? The game must know if you're going to score or concede and starts the highlight at an appropriate time.

If this is true, a tactical change during the highlight which changes the course of the highlight can thwart the predetermined result.

If this is not true, the player has no control over the outcome of the highlight, once the highlight has started.

Please, can I get some clarification on this, specifically on how the match engine decides to show which highlights.

Thanks for listening to me, I still think this is a great game but I get so frustrated when bullcrap stuff happens and it works against me. I really want to be a bad team (Im trying Sunderland) but these match engine issues make it impossible for me to keep a clean sheet. The AI manages to stop me some of the time, how do they do it?

it's your tactics

it's your tactics

Nice spam. So what am I supposed to do, geniuses?

Nice spam. So what am I supposed to do, geniuses?

One thing I have to say is that just 'cause a tactic works for someone else, it may not work for you, and/or may not suit your players.

Why not have a go at trying some other tactics to see if they produce better results? I've found, if using someone else's tactic, the "popular" tactic packs rarely work for me.

Oh, and attack (and possession) is the best form of defence.

You can't do a tactical change during a highlight. A highlight starts, you change something, then after a few minutes it will say Making tactical changes instead of commentary. That's when the tactical change happens

2. Centerbacks are mentally challenged.

Both me and the AI always have unmarked players in the box. Do I really have to "tight mark" every single player on Opposition instructions? If so, that's ridiculous. CB positioning is also atrocious; whenever a winger escapes from a fullback (which is often), the centerback moves over to mark the winger and thereby leaves a forward completely unmarked. Surprise, the cross isn't blocked anyway and the open forward is hit.

And don't get me started on the "XXXXX misses the interception". When does this ever happen in real life? I've rarely seen a defender have a chance to intercept a pass/cross and fail, leading to a goal. You stick a foot out or you jump up and head it, jesus. I'm a horrible soccer player, but whenever a pass came my way which I had a chance to intercept, I stick my foot out and the ball hits the foot. In this game, the defenders apparently have massive mental issues and forget to intercept the cross or something. Goals are not scored off of missed interceptions, they are scored by poor positioning. Maybe it's poor coding, maybe you should say "XXX was not positioned correctly, he was responsible for the free header" or something like that, but not "XXXX missed the interception". That should never happen.

Tight Marking is only ever effective for someone with a great 'Marking' and 'Concentration' attributes, generally a world-class player with 17 or higher for those attributes otherwise i just wouldn't bother.

I'm not sure what games you've watched, but watching the Premier League every week at Everton i've seen numerous times where the centrehalf has been dragged out of position to close down the attacker because the attacker has beaten a man, if he backs off and backs off, you're just inviting a long shot ( ). The worse a defender is, the more likely he is to do this. So short of playing with perfect defenders, this scenario will happen.

And as for missed interceptions... i can think of a dozen goals where the defender hasn't reacted, or hasn't reacted fast enough to jump or tackle. You'd mentioned already 'Mental issues', have you looked at the defenders 'Anticipation' attribute? his 'Decision' making skills and his 'Concentration' levels ? Even the best centrehalfs have bad days.

And as for missed interceptions... i can think of a dozen goals where the defender hasn't reacted, or hasn't reacted fast enough to jump or tackle. You'd mentioned already 'Mental issues', have you looked at the defenders 'Anticipation' attribute? his 'Decision' making skills and his 'Concentration' levels ? Even the best centrehalfs have bad days.

Agree with the other stuff. Maybe my problem is the commentary. "Missing" an interception, to me, is going for an interception and then failing to intercept the pass/cross. I still think it's too common, it seems like 1/2 of the goals are someone's fault. I think the defenders all have an unrealistic lack of talent in the game whereas the attackers have an unrealistic amount of talent.

best example maybe is the 'a instant reply' code... Ive turfed the times when i score and then the opponent scores within the next 5 minutes... In a 70 game season it happend 56 times! Now im playing LLM so i know my defense isnt that great but come on! Even in RL i am more concentrated on a footy pitch and i dont play that high! There is something terribly wrong with the match engine...Goals get scored far and far to easy. Even in matches like Barcelona - Man Utd in the semis of the CL you get scores of 5-1 or 6-2. FM09 has probably the worst match engine ever....and thats from a huge fan who still loves the game despite the lacky match engine

I'm assuming by the most successful tactic set in the game you are referring to TylerBode's set. This largely achieves success by using an exploit to dominate possession, which then guarantees chances as you simply have so much of the ball. However, it doesn't have good defensive settings and instead simply relies on keeping players back en masse to stop the opposition from scoring.

When I played TylerBode in FML, I simply used some OI/Specific Marking settings to deal with the possession exploit, from which point on I ripped his defence apart. It usually ended up 25 shots to 1 or 2 in my favour. That kind of dominance is impossible against really good defensive settings. If you want to sort out your defence, you need to read some of the good tactical theory threads. TT&F is obviously the starting point, but Heathxxx, SFraser and Loversleaper all understand how to construct a good defence and have their own ideas and variants on a theme.

Going slightly off topic here, I'd like to point out that good defense isn't represented well in key or extended highlights.

I'd really like to see more goal opportunity saving tackles and key interceptions in the said highlights (perhaps the ai could identify these by the quality of chance that would have been available had such a good tackle not been made)

The OP really must take wwfan's advice on board. What's the point making a long post which already anticipates and rejects the only sensible advice available? It really is, quite simply, your tactics.

This is a sorry state of affairs. There are two groups:

A) Those who find some bothersome issue with the game, and feel that their actions are not having the desired and/or logical effect; and

B) The match engine cultists who thwart any attempt to discuss flaws in the almighty match engine, which never has, never could, and never will have anything wrong with it.

I understand that a lot of complaints are uncorroborated and anecdotal in nature, but why doesn't anyone offer, for example, to try and replicate the OP's problems and see whether there is some credibility to his objection?

Nay, the match engine is good, the match engine provides, we are of zombie-level intelligence compared to the match engine, it's not the match engine, it's us... etc.

Why don't you. Maybe the rest of us have better things to do when we know the solutions (his three gripes are all easily countered by appropriate tactics) but he won't accept them. Nobody's saying the ME is perfect anyway.

We've all seen poor tactical settings and realise what kind of football they produce. However, the problem is always in the tactical settings and decision making of the poster, not in the ME itself. That it is too difficult to design decent defensive settings is the fault of the slider system and manual, not the ME.

As soon as the target is the ME, the answer will always be 'it's your tactics' because it always is. There are enough of us that are perfectly happy with our defence and knowing why/how certain settings work for it not to be an ME issue.

1. Wingers are impossible to defend against

What the hell am I supposed to do to stop them? If I play with a high defensive line, the AI always puts lobbed through balls over my fullbacks and the wingers run onto it. OK, so I play with a deeper defensive line. Now instead of lobbed through balls, the AI just passes it to the wingers and they literally run by my fullbacks. This doesn't happen only with poor (relatively) fullbacks, at my last game as Udinese, I had Mazzarani and Sakho at fullbacks and both of their CAs were anove 170, yet we had the same problem. The only difference was that my centerbacks could defend crosses better so it didn't really matter that those 2 were beat all the time. It's like Wynne and Beasley in the USA-Costa Rica game, the fullbacks are USELESS on defense. They rarely, if ever, block crosses even though I have induced carpal-tunnel syndrome on myself (hint- make it a 1-click option to always close down wingers) with all the clicks it takes to close down the wingers and show them onto their weaker foot. Who cares, the wingers just dribble by. And don't get me started on the egregiously obvious bug where the wingers don't cross immediately but instead try to dribble down the byline and get a shot on goal. Ridiculous, how was this not noticed? It happens EVERY GAME.

I agree with this. I actually went on this forum today because annoyance of this specific point. That said: at the moment i'm winning most games because I have the best wingers in the league doing exactly this!

A good way to prevent conceding from this is to have your defense sit higher up the pitch.

FAO the OP:

Your 1st paragraph highlighted to me where your going wrong with opposition wingers: I hardly ever use the "close down always" option on wingers. If you do then the wingers will usually use their dribbling skills and pace to go past your defenders. Just have your full backs closing down set fairly low on the sliders then they will tend to only close them down once they get towards your penalty area. Works great for me and my full backs get plenty of blocks in against crosses.

My question is: How can you watch only the key highlights and expect to know where the root of the problem lies? You have to see the overall shape of the game - what your players do during the mundane sections - to understand where the problems stem from.

I find that the best way to deal with troublesome wingers is to man mark their playmaker or employ a hard pressing game in midfield, then stick a hatchet man at fullback set to Hard Tackle those 50-50 balls. I managed to break Ashley Youngs ankle inside 25 minutes last time I played Villa using this method. You don't get many more effective tackles than that.

A less violent and more "Continental" method would be to man mark your opponents wingers with your own wingers and set your Fullbacks to a relatively high Closing Down in comparison to their low defensive depth, but with Easy tackling so that they only commit to a challenge when the odds favour them. This way they will have to outpace your winger to get in a cross or dribble past your winger and fullback to cut inside.

Ideally you want to defend with your midfield first in every case. Your defence should never be where you first try to stop attacks unless you vastly outclass your opponent.

Point number 2 in the original post sounds to me like over enthusiastic closing down on all counts. It is not only okay, but tactically sound to back off all the way to the edge of your box against players that poses a dribbling and overloading threat. Not only does this minimise space and multiply bodies between ball and goal, but it gives your midfield a chance to finish the job they were supposed to achieve in the first place, deal with the opponents midfield.

I'm sorry to say but I agree with the general sentiment of the replies to this thread. Your tactics do not seem very well constructed. If you are going man for man with fullback against winger and trying to win the ball at the first available opportunity then you shouldn't really be complaining about end to end football.

It's a tough game, but it's not the ME that's at fault here.

must be your tactics

FAO the OP:

My question is: How can you watch only the key highlights and expect to know where the root of the problem lies? You have to see the overall shape of the game - what your players do during the mundane sections - to understand where the problems stem from.

This is actually a very important point of constructive criticism.

I find that the best way to deal with troublesome wingers is to man mark their playmaker or employ a hard pressing game in midfield, then stick a hatchet man at fullback set to Hard Tackle those 50-50 balls. I managed to break Ashley Youngs ankle inside 25 minutes last time I played Villa using this method. You don't get many more effective tackles than that.

I must agree with the hard tackling bit. I've been making sure my fullbacks are on hard tackle for years now (RL ) and it certainly keeps those wingers a bit quieter.

I'd like to point out that good defense isn't represented well in key or extended highlights.

I partially agree.

Key = Definately not.

Extended = I find this depends on the tempremental highlights system. You can usually work out defensive solidity from extended, but not always.

Full = But of course.

The thing is that you can defend well for - say - 79 minutes against all forms of your opponents' attack and then suddenly concede from a simple ball over the top. That's just the nature of football.

I also agree with the hard tackling part. each match, i will often single out one or two their most dangerous players while physically rather weak (e.g. Deco), and order my players to take him out with hard tackle. more often than not this will result to their main man being hurt in a match and significantly weaken their side.

well, it may be a dirty tactic, but to win at all cost is my motto! i think Alex Ferguson did the same against Reyes a few years back anyway.

remember though dont' set the TEAM instruction as hard tackling, it won't work. cos we want to take out their main man, so just focus on their main man in opposition instruction as hard tackling.

remember though dont' set the TEAM instruction as hard tackling, it won't work. cos we want to take out their main man, so just focus on their main man in opposition instruction as hard tackling.

It works! Well, providing the players are good at decisions and other mental atts.

I feel suitably chuffed that I have managed to move a topic regarding complaints against the Match Engine towards an appreciation of the merits of Physical Violence. What else can be expected from a Scot living in Ireland that supports an English football team?

I'm assuming by the most successful tactic set in the game you are referring to TylerBode's set. This largely achieves success by using an exploit to dominate possession, which then guarantees chances as you simply have so much of the ball. However, it doesn't have good defensive settings and instead simply relies on keeping players back en masse to stop the opposition from scoring.

Hey wwfan, I know you're a busy man but I'm not familiar with Tylerbode's tactics. Could you summarize why you go as far as calling it an 'exploit' and why it's so effective at dominating possession?

Love it, more "its your tactics" nonsense

That doesn't address any points in the OP's opening post.

Why do tactical settings increase the amount of times that defenders miss interceptions?

Why do tactical settings make fullbacks utterly useless at tackling and marking regardless of stats or instructions?

Love it, more "its your tactics" nonsense

That doesn't address any points in the OP's opening post.

Why do tactical settings increase the amount of times that defenders miss interceptions?

Why do tactical settings make fullbacks utterly useless at tackling and marking regardless of stats or instructions?

Because they are setup wrong.

Well done on missing the point

Tactical settings should not have the abilitiy to make defenders miss interceptions, particularly from crosses or passes that go 1 inch away from them

More to the point, the vast majority of goals in FM seem to be down to some sort of player error, which is also clearly nonsense.

Well done on missing the point

Tactical settings should not have the abilitiy to make defenders miss interceptions, particularly from crosses or passes that go 1 inch away from them

More to the point, the vast majority of goals in FM seem to be down to some sort of player error, which is also clearly nonsense.

And how are goals scored in real life? Missed interceptions, not closing down quick enough, missing a tackle, etc.

Missed interceptions? Every game or every other game? I don't think so. Missing a tackle is fine, as well as the not closing down, but not missed interceptions and passing to the opposing striker who is 5 yards away from you and nowhere near another one of your players.

Sometimes, football teams score good goals too, that is not the fault of the opposition in any way. Doesn't happen nearly enough in 09.

Why do tactical settings make fullbacks utterly useless at tackling and marking regardless of stats or instructions?

When viewed in highlight mode, you only get to see the effective runs. It seems like wingers skin full backs more often than they should because you are not seeing the whole match. A winger running at a defender, getting tackled, defender clearing the ball, isn't a highlight. It's just something that happened.

I'm not saying the ME is flawless, I don't think even the most ardent fan can do, but the deficiencies often quoted as "always" and "unlpayable" are simply not so.

You will never, ever please everyone, no matter how far into the future we go or how many developers work on it. Sorry, but if you want perfection, a computer game isn't the place to look.

High creative freedom, Defender tries to kick it back over his head or something oops, straight to an attacker. Or having nobody to pass to because they all have an attacking mentality, therefore dwelling on the ball and giving it a way. If you have a good enough team but are losing a lot of games, it is either tactics or motivation

Not after perfection, but for me, watching a full match in 07 is so much more realistic than a full match in 09.

it's your tactics

J/K

Not after perfection, but for me, watching a full match in 07 is so much more realistic than a full match in 09.

Are you watching in 3D?

2d or 3d, makes no difference, both show the same ME.

Yeah but I find that it is easier to believe the 2D ME, when I can put my own interpretation on what the commentary tells me

Missed interceptions can be a result of a player having low balance or agility. He can't get his body shape right even though the ball skimmed by him. And even crap players score from long range every now and then it's all about getting the right contact. Players like Gerrard and Lampard have the proper technique to do it often.

I managed Chesterfield in one of my saved games I had the same problems you have. What everyone is saying about it being your tactics is right. You need to keep them simple (for crap teams) and always have plan b's. I used to concede a lot of goals from long range and headers because wingers kept on crossing the ball in.

My solution to the long shots was to use an AMC. They generally close down people who are 30 yards out because they don't drop to the edge of the box. My solution to stop the wingers was to have my winger close down. If their winger passes my winger my full back would come in he'd act as plan B. It was a double team solution and it worked.

Just develop your own tactics through playing a lot of friendlies with similar or better opposition. Don't change your tactic dramatically every time you lose. Choose a tactic that suits your team best then hone it. Place emphasis on defence first then sort out your attack.

Nice spam. So what am I supposed to do, geniuses?

You seme to forget that midfielders have defensive obligations too. Get your own wingers in on the defensive act before your full back has to.

it's your tactics

J/K

But you're right tho!

Lose a game and 99 times out of 100 its a tactical fault, not a software fault.

I read the tactical theorems and frameworks in 09 and ive built a tactic using that mainly and many different guides in the "tactics bible", yes its a long read but its better than moaning on here.

"Missed interceptions" really is a commentary problem. It ought to read something more like:

"X should have dealt with that better", or "X's lapse of concentration led to the goal".

To the OP's .. op? .. defensive tactical instructions can take care of the wingers; I like using explicit man-marking from my wingers to theirs, keeps my guys tracking back .. and has a knock-on effect in that, if the first tackle is missed, its the *fullback* who slides wide to help out, leaving both centre-backs in the centre to deal with the cross.

Also, I've had a lot better luck marking those forwards in the centre with my centre-backs on Man Marking instead of Zonal; it seems to work much better for my money.

Hard tackling certainly has its place, I hardly think of it as "intentional violence" though; I had my entire side set on Hard tackling by default all of last season (BSP level) and yeah there were some injuries on both sides, but we only got two reds (one straight, one for two yellows) and my yellow-card count didn't top the table. We did tend to give away more free kicks than you might want to at the EPL level, though; at the BSP, the free-kick takers aren't quite as dangerous.

Although I have seen missed interceptions in real life(Arsenal vs. Roma anyone? I mean, it literally went between his legs), I agree that it could be a bit more descriptive.

It is most definately your tactics. I mean no on eelse has this problem so...

out of interest, what is the possession exploit?

Not after perfection, but for me, watching a full match in 07 is so much more realistic than a full match in 09.

I couldn't agree more, Wakers. There seems to be a lot of denial of that. It could come down to opinions, I suppose, but that would indicate that the person with the minority opinion has not watched many full football matches.

I plan to create a thread in T&T where I address the shortcomings of 09 compared to 07 in quite a good way, if I say so myself. Hopefully it will open a few eyes.

I personally love this game, but it does make me wonder sometimes that to be succesfull the player must 'read up' on online articles like TT&F. I dont think the ingame help is upto much at all, as a slight tweak in a basic 442 can mean the difference between success and failure. In future versions it would be better if the assistant manager would offer more tailored information about tactics being used.

Not after perfection, but for me, watching a full match in 07 is so much more realistic than a full match in 09.

I couldn't agree more, Wakers. There seems to be a lot of denial of that. It could come down to opinions, I suppose, but that would indicate that the person with the minority opinion has not watched many full football matches.

I plan to create a thread in T&T where I address the shortcomings of 09 compared to 07 in quite a good way, if I say so myself. Hopefully it will open a few eyes.

Are you joking? FM07 had more attractive matches but I wouldn't say they were more realistic. Not by a long, long, long shot. Frankly the match engine was so predictable and easy to master in FM07 that it was laughable.

FM08 was an improvement but was buggy while FM09 is a vast, vast leap forward that's taken place as the AI of individual players has improved and the variety of potential situtions has been greatly expanded. It isn't the finished article but i'm sure it will improve: Just like it has every year.

I don't usually like to outright slate other peoples opinions but I think the idea that FM07's match engine is better than FM09 is simply ludicrous.

PS - Watching 'A' Full Match? What does watching 'A' Full Match do? You've got to watch hundreds of full matches, in many different leagues in many different levels with many different teams.

One of the best things about the FM experiance is that it varies greatly on which team you play as. The frustrations you experiance at one club are likely to be very different to those you go through at another.

Couldn't disagree more. In 07 you could get clearly different matches if you changed your tactics, if you managed in different leagues and so on.

FM09 has the habit of producing cookie cutter matches if you play in the lowest spanish division and the championship for instance. Matches were invariable terribly similar.

Couldn't disagree more. In 07 you could get clearly different matches if you changed your tactics, if you managed in different leagues and so on.

FM09 has the habit of producing cookie cutter matches if you play in the lowest spanish division and the championship for instance. Matches were invariable terribly similar.

I partially agree with your first point there: Matches in different leagues don't seem as distinctively different in FM09 as they were in FM07 where there was a definate jarr between, say, the Serie A, Championship, Turkish First Division and French Ligue 1 (my favourites).

I also agree that tactics were more intuitive and responsive in FM07 than they are in 09. However I don't hold this to be essentially realistic, given the large variety of other factors that affect a team and every one of the 22 players on the pitch.

However I disagree that matches in FM09 are invariably similar. Mine certainly haven't been!

All said: I think FM09 is more realistic, although I hold FM07 in much higher regard as the better 'game'.

I'm assuming by the most successful tactic set in the game you are referring to TylerBode's set. This largely achieves success by using an exploit to dominate possession, which then guarantees chances as you simply have so much of the ball. However, it doesn't have good defensive settings and instead simply relies on keeping players back en masse to stop the opposition from scoring.

When I played TylerBode in FML, I simply used some OI/Specific Marking settings to deal with the possession exploit, from which point on I ripped his defence apart. It usually ended up 25 shots to 1 or 2 in my favour. That kind of dominance is impossible against really good defensive settings. If you want to sort out your defence, you need to read some of the good tactical theory threads. TT&F is obviously the starting point, but Heathxxx, SFraser and Loversleaper all understand how to construct a good defence and have their own ideas and variants on a theme.

How can you make the exploit?I only want to know so i understand the ME better.And if the ME is good how can there be exploits?