Determination, teamwork and Work Rate - more important than I thought *Player Naming*

Ok, I have played this game since CM4 and ever since I started I always thought that better stats elsewhere always outweighed high determination, work rate and teamwork.

Only today did I realise quite how wrong I have been all these years.

In my Sunderland game at the moment I have 2 decent right wingers.

They are Steed Malbranque and Dean Whitehead.

Malbranque is technically superior so when he got injured I was a bit worried about playing Whitehead as his technical stats are nowhere near as good as Malbranque's.

However Whitehead plays infinitely better than Malbranque. He has Teamwork 20, Work Rate 20, Determination 19 and despite not being great physically or technically just does amazing things.

He constantly reaches balls I thought were going out of play, never stops running, his average distance per 90 minutes is 11.9 km and he is the best performer in my entire team from the first half of the season.

Malbranque played 12 games and got 1 goal and 3 assists, Whitehead has played 9 games and got 3 goals and 8 assists.

Moral of the story, don't be an idiot like I was and just assuming that certain stats are not important because you could regret it, like I would if I kept playing Malbranque.

Interesting!

Thank you for sharing. Will now keep an eye on those as well

The most important stat is consistency - it determines how often a player plays to his full CA. Hard to find out though without repeatedly scouting.

The most important stat is consistency - it determines how often a player plays to his full CA. Hard to find out though without repeatedly scouting.

Yeah, shame its a hidden attribute. Scout reports are often overlooked, due to people hunting the 7* potential / Current players, when in reality, a 5* player could be much better use for the team, if you read the scout reports properly.

I knew determinition was a key factor in how good a player was but I didn't know it could result in this much (a player with poor stats easily outplaying a player with good stats). Intresting

consistency, not determination

consistency, not determination

Do you mean that I should have said consistency rather than determination?

If that is what you mean then you are wrong.

I meant determination because he constantly chases balls down that most would leave and when he loses the ball always fights to get it back when a lot of players would just give up.

I'm not wrong, and yes I mean you should say Consistency.

If you have someone with 20 Determination, but 5 Consistency, it means he's determined to get the ball, but wont try often. (Hence the inconsistency.) However, if you have someone with 20 consistency, but say, only 10 determination, he's chase that ball down a lot more often, because he is more consistent in the "10" of determination.

If you do multiple scout reports on a player, you can find out the consistency?

Not always. If a player has 20 consistency you might get it on the first go, but if its somewhere in the middle they'll never say "he's averagelly consistent.

If you have someone with 20 Determination, but 5 Consistency, it means he's determined to get the ball, but wont try often. (Hence the inconsistency.) However, if you have someone with 20 consistency, but say, only 10 determination, he's chase that ball down a lot more often, because he is more consistent in the "10" of determination.

Mmmm... I'm not that convinced, NepentheZ.

I agree that Consistency has a major impact on performances. However, I'm not finding, from my experience, that it impacts psychology as you've described.

I find that that 20 Determination/20 Work Rate player is going to go all out for the ball all the time - that he's the player I'm most easily able to get to be "Playing With Confidence", "Looking motivated", or "Looking fired up" with my team-talks.

When I see him as "Inconsistent", he's the guy who will look like he's trying too hard.

I've a striker who looks like this:

- He'll start game #1 "Looking motivated" thanks to my team-talk.

- His hard work nets him a ball in dangerous territory in, say, the 15th minute; he scores.

- Now he's "Playing with Confidence" and goes on to post a 2-goal, 1 assist, 8.0-rated performance in a 3-0 victory.

- He starts game #2 "Looking motivated" thanks to my team-talk

- The opposition scores in the 10th minute. Now he's "Looking fired up"

- He appears to be working *even harder*, and his hard work nets him the ball in dangerous territory in the 15th minute.

- This time, he shoots too early, and blazes it over the bar.

- Over the rest of the game, he continues to waste his effort - blazing shots high and wide, mis-hitting passes, and taking shots when he had an open man to pass to.

- However, even in the 90th minute, he still looks like he's working harder than anybody else on the pitch, even though we're down 3-0 and the rest of the lads have given up on the game.

good story - I'm always a sucker for technical stats :o

mackem is right up to a point but ....

This is the classic debate surrounding Tevez at Man U - he's has great DET, TMWK and WKRATE, but lacks the highest technical attributes. Similarly, for all the outstanding mental attributes of Park, he was played off the 'park' by the Barcelona midfield. In other words, at the highest level you do need great technical skills to complement the mental attributes. For all that Ronaldo has lower workrate than Tevez and doesn't track back, there's no doubt which one SAF prefers to keep at Old Trafford.

Speaking from my personal experiance:

I have always thought that Teamwork is the single most overlooked attribute in FM09. I don't subscribe to any one set of tactical play with my teams, but all of my most successful teams have been those that were built around this stat.

My normal minimums for players (bearing in mind I always start off unemployed):

Teamwork: 14

Technique: 12

Passing: 12

Natural Fitness: 13

Pace: 12

Off the Ball OR

Positioning: 13

I'm not so sure I agree with the Determination-loving. Conversely I think it's the single most overrated stat. If you have a team that is sufficently creative and mentally gifted you tend to create chances and get yourself back into the match anyhow.

I find that individually, determination shouldn't be neccesary in Defenders because if you've got them set up correctly they really shouldn't have to track back and retrieve the ball in the first place. Determination is strikers is much more useful.

I’m sure SI have said that consistency means the likelihood of a player playing to his maximum CA or something along those lines.

Speaking from my personal experiance:

I have always thought that Teamwork is the single most overlooked attribute in FM09. I don't subscribe to any one set of tactical play with my teams, but all of my most successful teams have been those that were built around this stat.

I'd suggest that teamwork is crucial for defenders and midfielders, but it's okay to have an individualist goalkeeper or a selfish striker.

I'd suggest that teamwork is crucial for defenders and midfielders, but it's okay to have an individualist goalkeeper or a selfish striker.

It depends on ones take on what 'Teamwork' means really. Some assume Teamwork refers to how likely he is to pass to his teammates etc, which would fit with your 'Individualist' mentality of a striker etc.

But i've taken 'Teamwork' to mean how often he helps his teammates out on the pitch, how often he tracks back to help defend, how often he covers for a teammate out of position etc.

It depends on ones take on what 'Teamwork' means really. Some assume Teamwork refers to how likely he is to pass to his teammates etc, which would fit with your 'Individualist' mentality of a striker etc.

But i've taken 'Teamwork' to mean how often he helps his teammates out on the pitch, how often he tracks back to help defend, how often he covers for a teammate out of position etc.

Usually I find it has more to do with passing and movement, but not only that - It works as a kind of alternative/addition to squad cohesion.

I agree with the striker bit. Selfishness in strikers is often a good thing. I usually buy one fairly friendly striker and one mildly selfish one.

Well, I'm somehow convinced that there's not so much as hidden consistency attribute, but the game gives player a certain form attribute, depending on his match fitness, training etc.

I very often see following happen: my first team player gets injured for longer period and I have to give more playing time to my sub. I always rotate players enough, so sub player is match fit and blended to team anyway, but now he'll get to play 90 minutes at least 5-10 games in a row.

It's usual that he doesn't perform well, but usually for 5th or 6th game (if not earlier) he pulls out very good 8-9 rating performances (attacker) or at least maintains comforatbel 7+ rating level. It's like he's got into form now.

But, of course, he can't maintain it forever. If I have a key player in squad who plays every league game, I have noticed that he performs great for some period, let's say in autumn, but for some reason his performances fall to average during Spring. Perhaps he needs more rest (although it doesn't show), perhaps he's feeling too comfortable with his granted first team position without competition, I don't know.

Either way it seems there is like a hidden form attribute and form goes up and down. You can impact it with your team talk for specific game, however the background graph of the form will go on as the game calculates it.

In conclusion it's pretty hard to keep your player in high form for the whole season.

Dirk Kuyt is really good upfront and he has amazing mental stats including 20 teamwork and 20 work rate, his physical stats are quite good also but he isn't nearly as good with his technical attributes, yet he outscored torres in my first season.

Dirk Kuyt is really good upfront and he has amazing mental stats including 20 teamwork and 20 work rate, his physical stats are quite good also but he isn't nearly as good with his technical attributes, yet he outscored torres in my first season.

I just brought up on another thread the Man Utd debate: Tevez is brilliant on teamwork, but lacking in technical skills; Ronaldo is the opposite - he doesn't track back and help out his teammates. Which one is SAF willing to let go and which is he determined to keep?

Dirk Kuyt is really good upfront and he has amazing mental stats including 20 teamwork and 20 work rate, his physical stats are quite good also but he isn't nearly as good with his technical attributes, yet he outscored torres in my first season.

I've had similar experiences at Barca, my regen Sergio (FC) had an astonishing 20/20 for Teamwork and Workrate, didnt stop him scoring for fun though, 35 goals in all comps in 1 season.

Mmmm... I'm not that convinced, NepentheZ.

I agree that Consistency has a major impact on performances. However, I'm not finding, from my experience, that it impacts psychology as you've described.

I find that that 20 Determination/20 Work Rate player is going to go all out for the ball all the time - that he's the player I'm most easily able to get to be "Playing With Confidence", "Looking motivated", or "Looking fired up" with my team-talks.

When I see him as "Inconsistent", he's the guy who will look like he's trying too hard.

I've a striker who looks like this:

- He'll start game #1 "Looking motivated" thanks to my team-talk.

- His hard work nets him a ball in dangerous territory in, say, the 15th minute; he scores.

- Now he's "Playing with Confidence" and goes on to post a 2-goal, 1 assist, 8.0-rated performance in a 3-0 victory.

- He starts game #2 "Looking motivated" thanks to my team-talk

- The opposition scores in the 10th minute. Now he's "Looking fired up"

- He appears to be working *even harder*, and his hard work nets him the ball in dangerous territory in the 15th minute.

- This time, he shoots too early, and blazes it over the bar.

- Over the rest of the game, he continues to waste his effort - blazing shots high and wide, mis-hitting passes, and taking shots when he had an open man to pass to.

- However, even in the 90th minute, he still looks like he's working harder than anybody else on the pitch, even though we're down 3-0 and the rest of the lads have given up on the game.

I guess its how you view it. After some long talks with crouchaldinho! (Who is the St. Albans researcher and has a little "inside knowledge" on some things) - I came to the conclusion that have in 20 player with consistency, just means he will play to his full potential (being Currant Ability, not Potential Ability) on a consistent level. However, a player with low Consistency, will not player to his full potential on a regular basis. Meaning, if you had the following 2 players : (We'll use strikers as an example)

Player 1 :

Consistency : 20

Finishing : 13

Technique : 13

Composure : 13

Player 2 :

Consistency : 10

Finsihing : 19

Technique : 20

Composure : 20

That player 1 would actually be the more successful player over the year, because he conistently achieves that "13" in each striking area. (Playing to his full C.A Each game). Where as Player 2 may only play to 50%, 75% or even 25% of his Current Ability in some games, because he is inconsistent.

In the example you've given, this reflects what I assume perfectly. 1 Game he's hitting everything, and doing well. (Playing to a high % of his CA) - In another game, he's trying hard (which has no reflection on the consistency attribue) - But isn't hitting the target, and has a general lack of technical ability on the field (no playing to his full CA).

I'm not saying I'm right, but thats pretty much the vibe I got from my talks with crouchy.

That player 1 would actually be the more successful player over the year, because he conistently achieves that "13" in each striking area. (Playing to his full C.A Each game). Where as Player 2 may only play to 50%, 75% or even 25% of his Current Ability in some games, because he is inconsistent.

In the example you've given, this reflects what I assume perfectly. 1 Game he's hitting everything, and doing well. (Playing to a high % of his CA) - In another game, he's trying hard (which has no reflection on the consistency attribue) - But isn't hitting the target, and has a general lack of technical ability on the field (no playing to his full CA).

I'm not saying I'm right, but thats pretty much the vibe I got from my talks with crouchy.

That's much more how I envision it working, yes - that its impacting his technical ability, basically, impacting his percentage chance of pulling off a move, more than that it impacts his decision-making or his mental outlook.

I think we're in agreement, my friend.

Yeah, I think so.

my favourite stat (alongside the usual lot we've all mentioned several times in this thread already) is decisions, now that i find very crucial in choosing players.

Why do people feel a need to overcomplicate this game?

Work Rate of 20 is useless if his stamina is 2. Common sense does occasionally work in FM.