Regens and bravery

Being disillusioned by the long-term flaws in this game, I took it upon myself to correct some of its problems myself, primarily the infamous one-footedness. To rid the game of extremely one-footed elite footballers I began to use the Genie Scout and FMRTE in combination to first locate these players and then alter them in the editor. I filtered so that only players with 2 or lower in their weaker foot would appear. To not spoil the game by knowing the PA of all these players, I first got rid of the PA rating in my FMRTE and Genie search fields and then I cleverly positioned the FMRTE window so that I could only see CA and attributes, with the PA field effectively hidden by the lower side of my screen. Then I set to work, giving these defective regens much more realistic values for their weaker foot, balancing between Weak and Reasonable, sometimes giving Fairly Strong and the odd Strong. Now, I can't play the game without using this method even if I tried. It's part of my playing experience now, even if it's somewhat gruelling (and unnecessary). Every time there's a new batch of regens in the game, I restart this process, before continuing. This, I guess, is one of the curses and blessings of being a perfectionist.

One of my newer games lasted all the way to 2014, where I played as Chelsea, Leverkusen and lastly Liverpool. Through all these seasons I altered all the handicapped regens I could find with my Genie and the results turned out quite good. I got a pretty balanced game in the end, with no inflated one-footed regens anywhere to be found. Only balanced players. So I was happy that I could find a fix, such as it was.

That is not why I've created this thread, however. My latest gripe with regens is Bravery and the lack thereof. As an example, I've just started a new game with PSG, and if I use the Genie Scout (filtering down regens with 6 or lower for Bravery) I come up with over 500 players, some of them being DCs. I have the English, French, Italian, German and Spanish top-leagues loaded and nothing else. If I had other leagues loaded, such as the second-tier leagues (like I had last time), there would be near or perhaps over a 1000 of utter cowards. My question is whether these regens will improve on their Bravery (some of them anyway) as they get older and progress? Because it is annoying and somewhat game-breaking, I find. I remember I had a French DM with high Aggression and Determination - a real firebrand and full of potential. I grabbed him as Chelsea and was excited by my bargain purchase. The only problem was that he had a 4 for Bravery and I couldn't find any way to improve it. Maybe there is something I've missed with man management, I don't know. I'm an avid user of tutors to develop my youngsters and the results have often turned out good, but the Bravery attribute has always remained unchanged, even when other attributes like Determination has skyrocketed.

Anyone out there with any answers (maybe from SI) or perhaps theories on this?

Im guessing their all taking a page out of Didier Drogba's book from real life, flower style pansy football.

Did you check the Injury Proness, if my theory is correct all them 500 players would be "20", but they all magically recover a few seconds later.

Good post, valid points and all that.

Slightly off topic, but did you find as well that almost every single regen has amazing +16 Acceleration/Pace? Even most DC, DMC, and MC which really aren't known for their blistering pace in real life!

Determination is one attribute that I've found to be fairly malleable in a young player, using tutoring. It's one of the first attributes to go up when I assign a tutor to a youngster - if I'm lucky. Bravery, on the other hand, just stays the way it is, so there isn't any discernable connection between the two. If there is a very promising defender or DM with good all-around abilities, but with extremely low Bravery, he is, essentially, quite useless: all of his talents are sabotaged by his out-of-place cowardice and reluctance to go in to challenge for the ball. Newgens formed at a club are less extreme in this matter, I've discovered, than those already developed players that appear in countries that I haven't loaded, like Chile, Peru, Egypt etc. They can have really good attributes but are sabotaged by perplexingly low Bravery.

Newgens and regens form the foundations of a good long FM game, because they will build up the world later on. They should be the highest priority, in my opinion. Even though I'm disheartened that Bravery is pretty much static, I will continue on playing like usual, altering those extreme Bravery-cases as I spot them and mending the one-legs. I shouldn't have to, though. That's what I'm saying. Not in the 09 edition.

Plenty of brave players, and not too many at the same time.

Most important things in FM that need fixing are the 3D match engine (mostly just goalkeepers though) and realism among AI clubs.

peh ,, editing is for girls

Decisions has been and at the moment still is a problem with my regens, i am only in 2012 and this could improve, but there are numerous potentially would class players who have 5-8 for decision making, which is really poor for players with high technical ability.....

Natural fitness seems to be a problem with class players on mine. No good players have over 11

Likewise the 'one-footedness' issue was addressed in the 9.3 patch.

I agree.I rearly find regens in first leagues who are one-footed only.

Natural fitness seems to be a problem with class players on mine. No good players have over 11

I find the opposite, actually. In my current game a disproportionate amount of regens are popping up with 20 Natural Fitness. Not that I'm complaining, they make amazing wingers and wing-backs.

My main problem has been decisions (though I haven't played for more than a couple of seasons on most games).

How much do decisions rise? Because I see plenty of otherwise quality regens with decisions of 3 and below, and wonder how likely they are to improve.

My main problem has been decisions (though I haven't played for more than a couple of seasons on most games).

How much do decisions rise? Because I see plenty of otherwise quality regens with decisions of 3 and below, and wonder how likely they are to improve.

In my experience, they're one of the main areas to improve. I usually make sure I have the best tactical coach I can, even if I have to comprimise in other areas. Mmost of the mental stats, from what I've seen, seem to develop a bit later anyway.

What a bunch of whiners... Learn to work with what players that's available. If you don't like one-footed-players: hoover the world after two-footed-talents, don't whine about it or go editing.

After all, how many players are really equally adept at using both feet? Not many.

And you can't find youngsters with high enough bravery or decisions? Well, take a moment and think... The AI-teams will have the exactly same problem. So what's the motivation to edit that or whine about it? None. If you have any skills, you can build a good team anyways, especially if your opponent have the exactly same problem.

Personally I always make sure to sign up a great deal of talent (as many as I can afford) and then try all of them to see who's best suited for my tactic. It's not always a guy with high bravery or decisions. It's fully possible to build a kickass team without having players that's good at EVERYTHING.

"And you can't find youngsters with high enough bravery or decisions? Well, take a moment and think... The AI-teams will have the exactly same problem."

Thats exactly what i was thinking jirki, and if the Ai doesn't have the same problem, then pinch their brave players!

What a bunch of whiners... Learn to work with what players that's available. If you don't like one-footed-players: hoover the world after two-footed-talents, don't whine about it or go editing.

After all, how many players are really equally adept at using both feet? Not many.

And you can't find youngsters with high enough bravery or decisions? Well, take a moment and think... The AI-teams will have the exactly same problem. So what's the motivation to edit that or whine about it? None. If you have any skills, you can build a good team anyways, especially if your opponent have the exactly same problem.

Personally I always make sure to sign up a great deal of talent (as many as I can afford) and then try all of them to see who's best suited for my tactic. It's not always a guy with high bravery or decisions. It's fully possible to build a kickass team without having players that's good at EVERYTHING.

But it's bad for the realism of the game that regens are usually either too bad or too good at certain attributes.

But it's bad for the realism of the game that regens are usually either too bad or too good at certain attributes.

How would you know? Are you a prophet or seer of some kind, that can see what football-players will be good and bad at in the future? If not, I find it quite odd to talk about "realism" here.

I think it's quite realistic that players will be good at some things and bad at other things. Especially when there is regens that's good at everything and regens that's bad at everything.

So a defensive midfielder who isn't brave is a bug? Surely it's just the way the player has developed? That's like saying an attacking midfielder who can't dribble is a bug. It's just the way they are - if he's a player in such way I would suggest either moulding him into a player who can play in a different role, or sell him. Editing a player because he isn't how he 'should be' doesn't really strike me as the way to go.

Likewise the 'one-footedness' issue was addressed in the 9.3 patch.

Yup got an either footed regen right now.

Again a point I reiterate in almost all the Newgen/Fred threads regarding player progression and development. There are some areas which are by no means perfect which we are aware of, however the player balancing is an incredibly difficult thing to do - it's not like every good defender can be identical - that's what makes footballers individual.

Bravery is one such area (like determination) which doesn't really change much from the start and end of a players career, so these need to be relatively high to start with. Some players do, some don't - it's not quite right in terms of what is there at the start of the game, but it isn't a million miles off and is an improvement from earlier versions of this and previous games.

To say almost every single 'newgen' has 16+ acceleration/pace is very wide of the mark. Some of the better ones will have high acceleration/pace - absolutely - and probably the majority users go out and sign as it's an area they'll look for. But there are many good players with acceleration and pace much lower. We do a vast amount of spreadsheets and anaylsis over Newgens and these areas are all ones which we are still working to get the balance right.

Obviously we appreciate areas being highlighted, but we do have a very good idea of what areas need tweaking. Thanks.

Thanks for the reply!

How would you know? Are you a prophet or seer of some kind, that can see what football-players will be good and bad at in the future? If not, I find it quite odd to talk about "realism" here.

I think it's quite realistic that players will be good at some things and bad at other things. Especially when there is regens that's good at everything and regens that's bad at everything.

First, accept that the game is not perfect and that regens are flawed. It's probably a known issue in SI that regens are oftenly coming with low bravery. And there are many more flaws also. It seems just that you don't want to see that and is trying to believe regens are absolutely fine.

Everything can get better, of course, but they're nowhere as flawed as people like you want to make us believe.

I've seen regens with high bravery and decisions as well as regens with low bravery and decisions. Likewise, I've seen one-footed regens as well as double-footed regens. Personally I don't really see any big problem. Sure, it'd be nice if it was perfect, but it ain't perfect and will never be perfect, and I think it's working quite fine as it is now.

And I'd suppose it's like you say: then both the human player and the AI teams have the same problem, which balances out.

Alright, so, just out of curiosity I did a little search through my youth players (U18, since I'm at 2012). This is their values in Bravery-Decisions.

First, the players I've bought or found good enough to have in my first squad:

14-8

4-7

14-6

16-9

11-16

13-11

3-6

16-10

9-16

13-14

7-8

15-10

15-8

10-12

So, anyone gotta say this looks unbalanced to be regens? I don't think so. Looks quite well balanced to me. Some is good, some is not so good. It balances out.

Then, the players in my actual U18-team which I don't find good enough:

2-3

3-11

2-6

5-3

4-3

9-7

5-7

15-9

12-8

15-3

Those numbers are pretty much junk since this is the youths rated 1-2 stars by my coaches, meaning completely useless players. Most of them have barely any attributes above 10. Yet, there's a couple that have high bravery and some with decent decisions.

So like, idk about you, but I don't see a problem here. I can find plenty of regens with high bravery; 129 U17-players on player search with 15 or higher bravery.

However, it seems like only 3 U17-players on same player search have 15 or higher decisions, but that's possible to train, since most of my players have green arrows at that.

Anyhow, as I've stated: I don't see a problem here. You just have to optimize development of young players, as well as find the few with high values in some attributes. I guess you just gotta make your scouts work a bit harder, as well as spending more money on your own youth players.

If the game industry was thinking like you, we'd still be playing in DOS mode. Problems are to be highlightened and solved, if posible and asap.

Here's some more statistics to compare with: the rest of my first squad which mostly is 24-29 years old players:

18-10

7-10

10-13

4-3

13-12

7-15

13-12

9-9

6-9

14-12

9-12

10-11

17-14

15-16

11-11

11-13

13-14

14-13

14-16

10-13

13-11

6-9

13-9

17-15

Quite balanced there too, and I can definitely see most of the youth players in my first squad reaching those values within a couple of years (some of them already got it).

Now like... Do you people have some more convincing statistics or will you keep throwing around generalizations?

I'll talk about the bravery issue, as it's been mentioned in a couple of other threads. I'm in 2016, playing with attr making off. Let's see your "balance".

Search players under 21 >9504 found.

Search players U21 with bravery 15 or more>776 found. (8%)

Search U21 players-bravery 18 or more>71 found. (0,75%)

Search U21 players-bravery 10 or less>6957 found. (73%)

Search U21 players-bravery 5 or less>2901 found. (30%)

In my U18 squad there's no player-brav over 10.

In all PL U18 squads there's a total of 9 players-brav over 15.

Of course we should take under concideration the fact that bravery is an attr that increases as the player grows older, however imho there's room for improvement there.

I'll talk about the bravery issue, as it's been mentioned in a couple of other threads. I'm in 2016, playing with attr making off. Let's see your "balance".

Search players under 21 >9504 found.

Search players U21 with bravery 15 or more>776 found. (8%)

Search U21 players-bravery 18 or more>71 found. (0,75%)

Search U21 players-bravery 10 or less>6957 found. (73%)

Search U21 players-bravery 5 or less>2901 found. (30%)

In my U18 squad there's no player-brav over 10.

In all PL U18 squads there's a total of 9 players-brav over 15.

Of course we should take under concideration the fact that bravery is an attr that increases as the player grows older, however imho there's room for improvement there.

Of this, I'd put the U21 with bravery 15+ vs the U21 with bravery 5-. If we do that, we notice there's about 3 5- on each 15+. Is it unnatural that there's more bad players than good players?

It's not a scientific experiment, of course, but is an indication of a slight problem. It's just unnatural that there's less than 1% really brave players U21 there.

It's not a scientific experiment, of course, but is an indication of a slight problem. It's just unnatural that there's less than 1% really brave players U21 there.

Is it, really? I mean, 20 bravery indicates players like John Terry that'd throw his own head in the way of a kick without thinking twice about it, all for the benefit of the team. Is there really that many players like that?

For me it is, for you it isn't. As for John Terry's Chelsea, in 2016 they have 8 players with bravery>15 in their first team squad (total of 25 players). Do you know how many of those are regens? 0. That's zero. Their bravest regen (out of total 5) has 12, the others less than 10. Anyway, if you think there's no problem it's ok by me.

Is it, really? I mean, 20 bravery indicates players like John Terry that'd throw his own head in the way of a kick without thinking twice about it, all for the benefit of the team. Is there really that many players like that?

Yeah but thinking the other way, how many defenders in the game are shrinking violets, afraid of the ball and getting into a tackle? Low bravery for wingers, attacking midfielders and strikers should be pretty standard, but for a defender or DM, not being afraid to go in hard is pretty much a prerequisite to get to the standard where you're thinking about turning professional.

I'm not saying all defenders should have 20 bravery, obviously there's got to be some grading, and obviously not every person who has tried to become a defender will be brave, but they probably wouldn't have gotten past Under 14 level still playing as one if they're afraid to put a tackle in.

For me it is, for you it isn't. As for John Terry's Chelsea, in 2016 they have 8 players with bravery>15 in their first team squad (total of 25 players). Do you know how many of those are regens? 0. That's zero. Their bravest regen (out of total 5) has 12, the others less than 10. Anyway, if you think there's no problem it's ok by me.

Alright, now that's some solid facts that I can't dispute.

Central defender regens never seem able to jump.

Now like... Do you people have some more convincing statistics or will you keep throwing around generalizations?

Copy pasted from another thread where i mentioned that regen defensive players have low "Aggression" and "Bravery"

Of the 26 most valued players of the following positions:

In 2009: Full-Backs with "Bravery" attribute over 16: 10

In 2027: Full-Backs with "Bravery" attribute over 16: 1

In 2009: Center-Backs with "Bravery" attribute over 16: 19

In 2027: Center-Backs with "Bravery" attribute over 16: 2

In 2009: DM's with "Bravery" attribute over 16: 11

In 2027: DM's with "Bravery" attribute over 16: 0

Decisions has been and at the moment still is a problem with my regens, i am only in 2012 and this could improve, but there are numerous potentially would class players who have 5-8 for decision making, which is really poor for players with high technical ability.....

Decisions and mental attributes in general seems to be an issue with my regens, by the time they get alter on in their careers where they've learnt more about the game and mental attributes would most likely go up, they've already spent all their CA points on technical stats

Central defender regens never seem able to jump.

I have loads of regen DC's that have 18+ jumping in all of my saves, i have never had this problem

I have loads of regen DC's that have 18+ jumping in all of my saves, i have never had this problem

Same here, never had this problem with CB regens.

I have two CB regens with 20 jumping/20 heading and 18+ strength

They are utter beasts

One of them has 198 PA and a CA of 163 at 20

One of them has 198 PA and a CA of 163 at 20

This isn't your dafuge's challenge save you're talking about, is it?

Nope it isn't alan, it's my Wycombe save None of my defenders would be that good in my Dafuge's save anyway

Nope it isn't alan, it's my Wycombe save None of my defenders would be that good in my Dafuge's save anyway

Right, sorry about that. Found it strange that you'd be openly admitting to using genie scout while doing the challenge, 'tis all.

No problem, everyone has been asking recently, but it is my Wycombe save where i have been Champions League winners for the past 8 years