I Really Have Tried to Enjoy This Game (My last word on FM09)

Since the last patch(9.3.0) i have just not been able to get into this game at all.

I'm not going to whinge on about not buying another FM ever again, or that the game is crap, or that i hate SI, or that i think the game cheats etc, etc, so keep your knives to yourselves, but it has been the least enjoyable for me of the whole series, dating back to god knows when?

I think we are at a juncture now between the game becoming a time consuming, strategy defined, tweak reliant monstrosity, that is craved by the few and completely unintelligible to the many? rather than the fun and enjoyable yet often difficult and exasperating game that we have loved since it was first introduced all those years ago.

My own recent saved game has become like each before it since the last patch, an inconsistent nightmare of good bad or indifferent performances that leave me shaking my head and reaching for the quit button.

I'm going to add my most recent difficulties from a post i made on the T&T Forum.

Hey Tyler

Decided to have another go using your V6 Tester Tactic with Wigan in a brand new game.

Our Media Prediction was 16th - Here is the Final Table

Absolutely brilliant and with a little more luck in the last few games we could have actually nicked 5th.

I'm actually a little way into the 2nd season now and things have not gone as well as last season, despite bringing in much better players with the £31M the Board gave me to spend(for qualifying for a European spot i guess?)

In the first season i brought in 10 players and we were "operating well short of a unit" yet started the season with W 9 D 5 L 1

In the 2nd season i brought in 8 players and we were "players blending well together" and started W 6 D 4 L 5

I'm hope you realise i am NOT blaming your tactic in the slightest, this looks like exactly what happened in my West Ham save that i stopped playing.

When this happened in my West Ham save i was told that it was because teams were playing differently against me in the 2nd season due to overperforming?

Well, in my 2nd season at Wigan my Media Prediction is 10th which just happens to be the same as West Ham's Media Prediction in season 1, yet i had a great season with West Ham when predicted 10th, but struggling with Wigan with the same Media Prediction?

Surely if Media Prediction is a factor then teams should be lining up very similar against me in my predicted 10th spot with Wigan as my predicted 10th spot with West Ham? the only difference is that in my Wigan game its the 2nd season as opposed to the first.

This tells me there is a bigger underlying issue here than re-ranking, the evidence suggests that depite the big denial, the AI DOES actually become wise to your tactic, which CAN then render it useless.

Yes, i am aware that there may well be an issue with the fact that i use an untweaked single tactic to play the game and i am willing to accept that.

This does not though fully explain what i am experiencing above, a tactic that epitomised consistency with West Ham when predicted 10th in the first season, yet as i said, has become an inconsistent nightmare of good bad or indifferent performances in my Wigan save when predicted to finish in a identical position in season 2, after also being massively consistent in season 1?

Now, i fully understand that the game has to have a random element to it, but the very fact that this is a game and not the real thing should guarantee an air of consistency once you have mastered most of the important elements and should you continue to make your decisions based on what you know of the game, this should not lead you very far from the path you had previously walked?

In real life terms, this would be similar to Man Utd winning the title one season, only to end up in a relegation struggle the next, survive and then win the title the following year. If the game actually was as inconsistent and as random as that then it is falling way short of being the fun, enjoyable, difficult, but ultimately rewarding game that it should be?

Oh dear christ above.

Did not read it tbh, i already know this will be a replica of your previous threads.

All i could think of was Justin Timberlake

TLDR, but I can get the gist of what you probably said from the many identical threads you have posted in the past

FWIW, I do hope that in the future you can get the enjoyment out of FM that you desire

I would love that FM frustration and an inconsistent team right now.

You should appreciate the ability to make the game work.

you continue to say things like this in most of your posts "that is craved by the few and completely unintelligible to the many" but on what do you base this on? yes there are lots who struggle but there are other an equal if not greater amout that really enjoy and do wellat the game, to say just because a tactic was succesful one year then it should be the same the next is borderlne crazy. There are tons of clubs the world over season after season that think they are improving their squad pre season only to find themselves at the end of said seaon far worse off than the seaon before, and the fact that you've admitted you never change tactics says it all. Any manager worth his his salt would figure your team out pretty quickly and set their team up to nulify yours!

For gods sake, what you are saying is that a tactic you use, every game for over a season does not work now? Well it happens all the time irl. Look at Man Utd and how they got beat by Liverpool and they use the same tactics as they always do. Look at how Liverpool got beat by Chelsea and they always use the same tactic. The AI as for as I know can learn your tactic which means you have to change your tactic to your oppositions weakness. In other words, it's best to have more than 1 tactic.

but the very fact that this is a game and not the real thing should guarantee an air of consistency

It sounds like you expect one tactic to work on all games if it works on one. FM is a simulator and I beleive that is what the players like about it. It would be stupidly easy if all it took was one tactic and buying better players. The fact that we can see all players stats means that no one would ever fail. All it would take is a bit of luck with getting a tactic right then you could beat everyone.

Look at Everton, great team but had a really poor start to the season. Football isn't always clearcut and thats the beauty of it - the fact that FM replicates this is a good thing IMO.

Are you trying to say that no matter what team you play as you have 1 tactic it should get similar results each time?

...Every team has 20 different players of different abilities, personalities, and countless other variables that it would prove impossible to guarantee the same results with different games

I would wonder how well the players that you buy in the off-season before you lose consistency fit in to the tactic?

Also.....why would you want to have a tactic that you never change?? You are playing football manager, and tactics are pretty much 90% of the job......hell they don't even choose the players or coach these days.

I think tl;dr probably takes the prize for the most irritating internet meme of all. I myself like these kinds of long posts, because they show the poster has taken the trouble to compose something detailed about his issue.

(It is, however, the same expletiveing issue that Hammer always shows up with. Hello again, Hammer. And wwfan, SFraser, and Rupal, who I'm sure are waiting in the wings.)

Where do you get the idea that the "majority" isn't catered for? If people are happy with the game they get on with it and play.

It's more time consuming, but it's not as difficult as many people make out. No, it's not as easy to take Harrogate Town to the summit of the Premier League as previous editions, but bigger clubs are as easy as they've ever been - with a bit of thought, of course.

Anyway, each to their own I suppose.

If I have trouble getting into a game I like to take a bit of a hiatus.

Some people don't seem to consider this. Like it's FM or Bust

So what most of you are trying to say here is that it is perfectly o.k. that i use a non tweaked single tactic and ALWAYS massively overachieve in Season 1, but on the same note i should not be able to expect similar performances in Season 2 with better players and a more gelled team?

As far as i'm concerned it should'nt matter whether i'm using a single tactic or a set of 15 tactics, if you find something that works, then based on the quality of your players and the decisions you make as a Manager(which going by Season 1's efforts appear to be the right ones?) then you should be able to expect some semblance of success or at least consistency?

If this is not the case, then all that it means is that the game is coming up with scenarios to test you with? so instead of having a semi realistic Football management game, you have a Age of Empires like game, in which you start a campaign and have to complete a number of scenarios like "gather 50000 Gold and build a Town Centre" surely this is not comparative of what we want FM to be?

I only choose to play the single tactic way because like over 60% of FM'ers here on the Forums(God only knows how high that % will be amongst non Forum members???) i do not understand the workings of the ME?

There is no point me blindly tweaking my tactic/s when i have no idea what it will achieve? I have read TT&F dozens of times and even tried tactic sets created by the Guru's, but all to no effect? I am told that it may take me up to 3 seasons to work out how to switch tactics correctly, but by this time the game has become infinitely easier anyway, due to AI teams being so poor at strengthening their squads?

I agree with you in the fact that you're better off using fewer tactics (I use at most 4 and they're just variations)

And I would be upset if the tactic worked well season 1 then failed in the following, but then as the season progressed I'd try figure a way to fix it. If that fails then I'll be at a loss, but I find some enjoyment in it if a succeed.

Admittedly I haven't ever finished higher than 5th in the EPL EVER!! yet I am content

So what most of you are trying to say here is that it is perfectly o.k. that i use a non tweaked single tactic and ALWAYS massively overachieve in Season 1, but on the same note i should not be able to expect similar performances in Season 2 with better players and a more gelled team?

As far as i'm concerned it should'nt matter whether i'm using a single tactic or a set of 15 tactics, if you find something that works, then based on the quality of your players and the decisions you make as a Manager(which going by Season 1's efforts appear to be the right ones?) then you should be able to expect some semblance of success or at least consistency?

If this is not the case, then all that it means is that the game is coming up with scenarios to test you with? so instead of having a semi realistic Football management game, you have a Age of Empires like game, in which you start a campaign and have to complete a number of scenarios like "gather 50000 Gold and build a Town Centre" surely this is not comparative of what we want FM to be?

I only choose to play the single tactic way because like over 60% of FM'ers here on the Forums(God only knows how high that % will be amongst non Forum members???) i do not understand the workings of the ME?

There is no point me blindly tweaking my tactic/s when i have no idea what it will achieve? I have read TT&F dozens of times and even tried tactic sets created by the Guru's, but all to no effect? I am told that it may take me up to 3 seasons to work out how to switch tactics correctly, but by this time the game has become infinitely easier anyway, due to AI teams being so poor at strengthening their squads?

I look forward to season 3 onwards if the game is going to become easier then! - but doubt it will. For me using the T&TF guide I have been relatively OK and happy with my save game. I think it would be great if SI told us exactly how the ME works, instead of leaving it to the multi contradicting input of Posters here to advise on that, seems they (SI) will do anything to prevent a Supertactic breeding (which I dont care about, personally, anyway). You do have to change tactics, that seems undeniable and the excuse given for that is that real managers constantly change things to suit. Well I use Sam Allardyce's Bolton as proof negative to that, he used a near identical methodology each game and was extremely over successful, IMO. Also Ferguson spend a few years sticking with the proven not-to-suit-Man-U-tactic of 451, he still finished as runners up. Pick the wrong tactic in FM and 2nd place will be a well out of reach goal.

I love the game, I also think it is too "complicated" and I think SI should guide us more - but I also do think that they listen, and the FML tactical development preview seems to be bang on for the correct future direction of FM's tactical side I feel.

Hammer - have you put yourself forward for beta testing in FM Live? It's a good chance to see what they're working towards with the tactics wizard, which goes some way to dealing with your complaints about the level of detail involved in slider management. You don't have to have an FML account to sign up.

The game has definitely changed so that the AI teams adapt their setup to the opposition, to the match situation, etc. That's generally a good thing, but the tactics screens aren't set up to allow in-game adjustments very easily. From what I've seen on FML beta, I'm pretty sure there'll be big, positive changes for FM10: you should be able to design your basic tactic without much fuss and just make one-click changes to it for each game/in-match situation.

Hammer - have you put yourself forward for beta testing in FM Live? It's a good chance to see what they're working towards with the tactics wizard, which goes some way to dealing with your complaints about the level of detail involved in slider management. You don't have to have an FML account to sign up.

The game has definitely changed so that the AI teams adapt their setup to the opposition, to the match situation, etc. That's generally a good thing, but the tactics screens aren't set up to allow in-game adjustments very easily. From what I've seen on FML beta, I'm pretty sure there'll be big, positive changes for FM10: you should be able to design your basic tactic without much fuss and just make one-click changes to it for each game/in-match situation.

Hey RT, i'm not down for FML no, but i have put myself forward for FM2010.

I have high hopes for the aforementioned Tactical Wizard, my only concern is that we are still left with no clue as to just what to tweak and when?

I understand that the game must move on and that in game tweaking IS realistic in relation to Real Life, but the game and the ME in their current state are just nowhere near good enough to pull this off?

Thank you for your reply, your about the only person so far who has attempted to understand what it is i am actually getting at and i appreciate it!

Hammer,

Good post pal I too have had big problems adjusting to the time consuming monster the tactics in Football manager have become. I wrote a post about a month ago entitled 'death of Football Manager'. Unfortunately the wording of the title was in hindsight very harsh and a little bit stupid. Whilst Football Manager continues to sell like it is it could possibly live forever. However this is how I felt at the time and the title should really have read Football Manager dead to the old skool? As I think it has now become too complicated for gamers who do not play games frequently. It has already been addressed by SI that they may be looking into the tactical side of the game for future releases, which is a huge step in the right direction. In my opinion here are a few things that I think need to be addressed in future releases:

1. Press conferances. Can these be removed or worked on as I am often petrified of saying the wrong thing incase I upset a player. I also don't really notice a difference in saying different things. Quite often I will say I will attack and this will elicit a positive response from my squad. Yet when I say I aim to defend I get the same response. Hence does it really matter what I say for most of the questions?

2. Tactics. The dreaded tactics! I have spent many hours reading different tactical advice from the likes of Crouchaldinho and WWfan but am still unable to get to grips with it. Although fair play lads these have been enjoyable reads and seemed to have helped a lot of people. A lot of people say these add realism but I argue the opposite. Would it not be easier to add instructions in such as 'cut in', 'play off the shoulder of the target man' and 'overlap' to name just 3 that could be used. I just think that in order to play a game you should not need to spend hours and hours readinf frameworks etc.

3. Team talks being revamped as with point 1 the team talks often leave me in fear of the half time whistle as there are circumstances when it seems impossible to say the right thing.

4. This is linked to tactics but the ability to play the game and understand where you are going right and wrong without the need to either trawl through the endless amounts of stats or watch the game in full to work out the match engine would be great. What a lot of posters recommend is to watch the full game I did this and I played 2 games over 2 nights doing this and it took me about 45 minutes to play 1 game. Which unfortunately is too long.

There are some very good points in FM however. I like the transfer system, training seems to work OK, I enjoy the 3D highlights, the rating system has been improved and the hard work from the guys SI is admirable. I'm referring to 3 patches being released to enhance our gameplay and fix bugs. Whether it did enhance your gameplay or not is a different matter but at least they sorted as much as they could for us.

An idea that I have had to potentially keep everybody happy would be to port a version of Football Manager handheld onto the PC. So there would be 2 versions on the PC. 1 for the people who want to and enjoy spending hours and hours a week on the game and enjoy the depth. And another that is available for people who used to enjoy older less complicated versions. As i have the PSP version I can confirm that it is like the older versions of football manager without the sliders and this makes in my opinion a more fun easy to use sim.

Hammer,

Good post pal I too have had big problems adjusting to the time consuming monster the tactics in Football manager have become. I wrote a post about a month ago entitled 'death of Football Manager'. Unfortunately the wording of the title was in hindsight very harsh and a little bit stupid. Whilst Football Manager continues to sell like it is it could possibly live forever. However this is how I felt at the time and the title should really have read Football Manager dead to the old skool? As I think it has now become too complicated for gamers who do not play games frequently. It has already been addressed by SI that they may be looking into the tactical side of the game for future releases, which is a huge step in the right direction. In my opinion here are a few things that I think need to be addressed in future releases:

1. Press conferances. Can these be removed or worked on as I am often petrified of saying the wrong thing incase I upset a player. I also don't really notice a difference in saying different things. Quite often I will say I will attack and this will elicit a positive response from my squad. Yet when I say I aim to defend I get the same response. Hence does it really matter what I say for most of the questions?

This is one part of the game i leave completely untouched and if somebody was to say to me that this might be an issue for my repeated 2nd season syndrome, then why do i have absolutely no issues regarding this in any 1st season i have played?

2. Tactics. The dreaded tactics! I have spent many hours reading different tactical advice from the likes of Crouchaldinho and WWfan but am still unable to get to grips with it. Although fair play lads these have been enjoyable reads and seemed to have helped a lot of people. A lot of people say these add realism but I argue the opposite. Would it not be easier to add instructions in such as 'cut in', 'play off the shoulder of the target man' and 'overlap' to name just 3 that could be used. I just think that in order to play a game you should not need to spend hours and hours readinf frameworks etc.

This is where i happen to think that our issue holds the most water. To be able to make the required tweaks and changes to our tactics we MUST have some idea of what we are doing via the ME and a poll that i started asking "Who understands the ME?" shows that between 60-65% of Forum dwellers DO NOT, so where does that leave us?

3. Team talks being revamped as with point 1 the team talks often leave me in fear of the half time whistle as there are circumstances when it seems impossible to say the right thing.

I agree, i often feel better off being a goal down at HT rather than 2-0 up, i think team talks should only be linked to morale instead of making a direct impact on a teams overall performance.

This is linked to tactics but the ability to play the game and understand where you are going right and wrong without the need to either trawl through the endless amounts of stats or watch the game in full to work out the match engine would be great. What a lot of posters recommend is to watch the full game I did this and I played 2 games over 2 nights doing this and it took me about 45 minutes to play 1 game. Which unfortunately is too long.

I have neither the time or inclination to play the game in such depth and if this became an absolute necessity? i would not be in a position to continue buying and playing this game.

There are some very good points in FM however. I like the transfer system, training seems to work OK, I enjoy the 3D highlights, the rating system has been improved and the hard work from the guys SI is admirable. I'm referring to 3 patches being released to enhance our gameplay and fix bugs. Whether it did enhance your gameplay or not is a different matter but at least they sorted as much as they could for us.

Personally i'm not impressed with training. All i end up doing is making 15-20 clicks to the left of the default training to reduce injuries? whereas IRL training is probably the very most important aspect of Management, as this is where he is able to get a visual perspective of what his players are capable of?

I sort of understand where ur coming from. I have hardly played fm 09 that much played fm 07 and 08 for thousands of hours quite literally. Its the tactics that annoy me. I know it shouldn't be obvious what you do but then You should have some idea of what you have to do. It just seems random to me. For example i played like 11 games witha certain tactic played like stirling albion in 9 of them. change focus passing from mixed to down both flanks and its like im playing like barca or man etc now. To me that doesn't seem the type of thing that should have taht much effect. Maybe a slight effect but not to the effect that took place. I just feel a lack of undertsnading when it comes down to what to do. Maybe its just the lack of time i've played the game but ive read the guides and stuff and thay pretty much go along liek the other versiosn of fm's do except for a few differences. FM 09 is still a good game whether it is as fun as the previous versiosn is debatable.