I am going to do murder soon

Dear SI, (apologies to people who like football)

Look. I know this game is hard to be good at. That is good. I know it is also hard to make a game like this which even partially resembles actual football. But if you are going to claim that you have made the best football management game ever, with the "most realistic match engine ever seen" then it must be true.

Clearly it is not.

Database = amazing.

This is not enough.

Never mind activation. Never mind patches. The problem with this game is about as hard to miss as getting slapped about by a rotten halibut wielded by Sarah Palin: For all the complications you have built in to create 'realism' you have forgotten that football is the best game in the world because it is so so simple. I play in the street sometimes. You don't have to tell me twelve separate things to make me play well, you have to pass me the ball when I call for it, and expect to get it back. This game does not represent football, or tactical genius, or anything close to resembling a realistic transfer market (sorry I had to get that in, but it's true, isn't it), it is a mathematical soup which is so wholly removed from football as to be barely recognisable.

Why don't you release two games next year: you can call one 'Football Manager 2010', and the other 'People Passing A Football On A Pitch Trying To Score Goals'.

And before you all start slagging me, I know what the Arsenal hierarchy said, that the tactical simulation in this game is as close to the real world as any simulation has ever been, but the difficulty with that is that Arsenal get a piece of the Arsenal Edition sales, don't they?

Again, apologies for the rant, but I want a refund. OAO

i do like playing FM 09, but i agree with you fully that the amount of detail that is in the latest release has made the game only playable by people like my self who spend several hours to set the team up before the season starts. Ive had to download tatics from a website because it is almost impossible to make one your self on this without losing 40 games in the process.

I really feel that each year the amount of fun in it decreases, and the amount of time you have to put into it, to have a chance increases. Plus because it so complex SI have made a game full of bugs that they cant fix.

Even though previous versions of the game might have been a bit too easy, i think we would all have to admit that we had far more fun with those early games instead of trying to set up hundreds of slide bars for your team.

I feel that in trying to make the game more realistic they have just turned it all into maths and now it doesnt really feel like football like the old fms and champ mans. My fav is 03/04! so much fun

Simple?

That's the daftest comment I've heard for a while. Real football isn't simple. Never has been, never will be. No manager ever plays exactly the same tactics every match, but in FM you can win 10 on the trot without changing anything, but then one AI manager will crack your tactics and park the bus, score one goal with their only attempt against your 100 attempts and no goals, but that's life.

Previous iterations of FM/CM have been VERY simple, and after 4-5 years it's pretty easy to get through a season unbeaten if you are a big team. In FM07 I took Leeds back to the Prem with relative ease, then with some shrwed freebies and loans in I got them to 4th in my first season and then second then won it 4 times on the trot. I used a 4-3-3 with a DMC, 2 MCs and two advanced wingers with arrows to the ST position, plus one big strong ST. Rarely did I have to alter tactics home or away, although on occasion I'd tweak at half time if I was losing or drawing. I also won the CL twice and became England manager, winning the world cup AND Euro cup. I was LEEDS.

By [real-life] February I was setting myself all sorts of challenges and messing with the editor to make the game more challenging. I took Harrogate Town from Blue Sq North (07 equivilent) to L1 in successive seasons using the same tactic (then the 08 demo came out and I quit).

FM09 isn't as hard as people make out. In fact, I'd say it's way more realistic than previous versions, but it is still way, way simpler than real football. No, it's not easy to take Leeds to the prem then into the CL and then win the treble all in 5 seasons, but it's still easier to get them to the Prem and keep them there, and maybe within 10 seasons get them to the CL... even the most passionate Leeds fan would be over the moon with that in real life, but the only way I can see that happening is with a tycoon takeover.

You only need an unbeatable tactic derived from the tactics bible if you expect to win everything very quickly. Otherwise slightly tweaked default tactics have worked pretty well for me.

Simple?

That's the daftest comment I've heard for a while. Real football isn't simple. Never has been, never will be. No manager ever plays exactly the same tactics every match, but in FM you can win 10 on the trot without changing anything, but then one AI manager will crack your tactics and park the bus, score one goal with their only attempt against your 100 attempts and no goals, but that's life.

Previous iterations of FM/CM have been VERY simple, and after 4-5 years it's pretty easy to get through a season unbeaten if you are a big team. In FM07 I took Leeds back to the Prem with relative ease, then with some shrwed freebies and loans in I got them to 4th in my first season and then second then won it 4 times on the trot. I used a 4-3-3 with a DMC, 2 MCs and two advanced wingers with arrows to the ST position, plus one big strong ST. Rarely did I have to alter tactics home or away, although on occasion I'd tweak at half time if I was losing or drawing. I also won the CL twice and became England manager, winning the world cup AND Euro cup. I was LEEDS.

By [real-life] February I was setting myself all sorts of challenges and messing with the editor to make the game more challenging. I took Harrogate Town from Blue Sq North (07 equivilent) to L1 in successive seasons using the same tactic (then the 08 demo came out and I quit).

FM09 isn't as hard as people make out. In fact, I'd say it's way more realistic than previous versions, but it is still way, way simpler than real football. No, it's not easy to take Leeds to the prem then into the CL and then win the treble all in 5 seasons, but it's still easier to get them to the Prem and keep them there, and maybe within 10 seasons get them to the CL... even the most passionate Leeds fan would be over the moon with that in real life, but the only way I can see that happening is with a tycoon takeover.

You only need an unbeatable tactic derived from the tactics bible if you expect to win everything very quickly. Otherwise slightly tweaked default tactics have worked pretty well for me.

I never said it was hard because ive taken kings lynn to the premier league and champions league in 09. I dont feel it gets harder i feel like it just it needlessly complex. I dont think football is simple but FM has gone too far i think with this now. I dont know how you see the tactics of this game being realistic.

the game is hard and i beleive to be truyl great you need to be a brain box, be able to remember so many small stats and information, real life football is not simple especially when you get to the top.

What the original poster is saying is that in real life you don't have to tell all your players how attacking or defensive to be, you don't have to set your defensive line up at the perfect place on the slider bar that magically coexists with where the mentality bars are, and the creative freedom, and all that. In real life if you're playing a 442, you don't have to put one strikers mentality at the perfect place to make him an FC "defensive," and tell him to hold up the ball. if he gets the ball and there's no one around him, he would already know to hold up the ball in real life. it just depends on the situation. If he has no passing options then of course he dribble it around and wait for his wingers and midfielders to jump in the play.

That being said, the problem is not that you need to use sliders, and the whole mentality thing. No, it makes sense that in real life you might tell one FC to play a little closer to the midfield to act as a bridge between the midfield and the other striker, and the mentality sliders are the way you do that in this game. And same goes with telling one MC to be a bridge between the defense and midfield and one attacking mc to jump in the offensive play. I mean would most professional footballers know to do that on their own anyway? Yes. If the midfield wasn't getting the ball from the defense enough and the distance between them was too long the midfield players would know to go present themselves for the pass. In real life it's called "getting open." You don't have to change their mentality for them to know hey im not in a place right now where my defense can pick me out with a pass, so i need to move and get open for them. But then again that's the point of being a manager and the point of the game that you are supposed to have control over where everyone is. The real problem is not the sliders themselves, but the fact that they need to be so exact.

The way it should be is like so:

If you as a manager have something really specific in mind that you want to do, then you should be able to do it. Thus the sliders. Without them there wouldn't be enough control, and it wouldn't be realistic. So if you want one FC to be a little deeper than the other, than moving one slider lower and one a little higher makes sense. It shouldn't be that you have to count an exact number of how many clicks one slider is than the other. Because how is anyone who hasn't written the match engine supposed to know how many clicks? it should be that if you move the sliders within a few clicks or where it should mathematically be that it works. And if you hae something specific in mind and you execute it then you should be rewarded by it working a little bit better than jsut leaving things be.

But if you have good players, you should also still be a great team if you just leave the mentality and creative freedom and width sliders alone. Should you have to specify long shots and those types of things? Of course, because that is actually self explanatory and makes sense. if someone has 20 in long shots then you put long shots often, and it helps your team. If someone is fast and a great dribbler, then u put run with ball often, and maybe long shots rarely so that he runs more and shoots from distance less. That stuff makes sense and it adds to the game. but with everything else you should really just be able to leave the person tactics alone (IF you have good players), or you should be able to just set DC's to the default DC tactic. Because if that doens't work well at least with good players, then what is the point of the default tactics?

One more thing:

The reason FM was too easy in years past wasnt that the tactics were too easy. It is that in FM there are always loads of young players who turn into stars after a season or three, and who are cheap, and who will come to most premier sides. Yet even though they're so great you can always sign them with no competition from anyone else, even better teams with more money. And it's like if Vagner Love and Zhirkov and Cristian Zapata and Sakho and Criscito and Giovinco or Guardado in FM07 (who magically turned out to be the best ML in the game in his second and third seasons, better than C Ronaldo and Messi even, and who was available for 2million) or whoever are all such great amazing players even in their young age, and if they're going to turn into some of the best players in the world after a few seasons, then why are they available for so little, and even if they are in real life, then why are you so the only manager in FM who makes an offer to sign them???

The problem with FM has always been that there are way too many hidden gem players available for too little money and the biggest problem of all is that after a few seasons these hidden gems become even better than the stars in the game, which is hte most ridiculous thing. When you play FM you learn never to pay 70million to get a player like C Ronaldo or Gerrard because at leasst in years past chances were that the guy you could get for 5 or 10mil would actaully outperform the guy you could get for 70mil.

Also the other huge problem with FM is the whole "this plyaer has no intention of joining your club." Every player has his price but FM doesn't accurately represent that because with players who have no intention of joining... they won't join for anything, no matter what u offer. Also SI has no idea which players would join which clubs. Example. In FM, when Beckham was at real madrid, if you played as los angeles, and offered a contract to beckham, no matter how big the contract offer, he would decline because he had "no intention of joining" in the game. Yet, obviously, in real life, he did have intention, and he did have his price, just like everyone else.

one more note on criscito. He's one of the best 3 or 4 young defenders in FM who will sign with most prem clubs. So why would juventus sell him for 2.7 million? They don't desperately need 2.7 million, and he's one of the top young players in the game. So why would they do that? that's actually what imt alking about.

But then again, if you dont have the hidden gems, and the good known players have no intention of joining your club, how are u supposed to ever build a good team?

that's the problem right there. They either have to get rid of both or just the no intention nonsense and lower the amount of hidden gems, or keep the amount of hidden gems but have more clubs trying to sign them if you make an offer for them.

Football in the street is simple, but this game isn't about playing football, it's about football management. If managing a football team was easy we would all be doing it for real instead of playing a simulation.

BoyledShark22 has put things very well indeed. For everyone else...

I think the point is being missed somewhat. Football is a simple game. There are 17 laws which govern the game (there are many ways to get a card, but those are offenses).

The thing with this game is this. Yes, you can set up a good or 'bad' team well, and get great results. But have you seen what your players actually do? I have played an Arsenal save for a while now, and strikers will try and turn into central defenders EVERY TIME THEY GET THE BALL, because you have 'run with ball' often. What is that? I'll tell you, for free. It is nonsense.

What I mean by simple is that it is actually simple. You ask any central defender in the world, doesn't matter how good they are, as long as they play, and they will tell you that tackling a striker trying to turn into them when they're on that striker's heels is like taking candy from a baby. It is SIMPLE to play football, because players understand these things, so they avoid doing them. In real life anyway. But sliders have not got the capacity to make players play football. It is programming. The players must have some idea of what they should do, regardless of the managers tactical ideas. Tactics are being developed more and more, ever since Brazil invented the back four, really, and turn into very complex issues the higher up the food chain you go, so to speak, but the players themselves still understand how to play football. They just fit the tactics into that understanding.

If the match engine cannot represent the basic ideas behind how a football game is played, ie defending a ball even though you are being used as a fast striker, then the game is just a joke. Sorry, but you can't tell me that Gael Clichy throws the ball in to opposition players three times in a match and says to his manager "but boss, you told me to take them quickly..." That is rubbish.

I still want a refund, not because the game is so awful at representing how football players play, but because it claims to do it excellently. And every single person who has played a season or two of it knows exactly what I mean.

I think the point is being missed somewhat. Football is a simple game. There are 17 laws which govern the game (there are many ways to get a card, but those are offenses).

The thing with this game is this. Yes, you can set up a good or 'bad' team well, and get great results. But have you seen what your players actually do? I have played an Arsenal save for a while now, and strikers will try and turn into central defenders EVERY TIME THEY GET THE BALL, because you have 'run with ball' often. What is that? I'll tell you, for free. It is nonsense.

What I mean by simple is that it is actually simple. You ask any central defender in the world, doesn't matter how good they are, as long as they play, and they will tell you that tackling a striker trying to turn into them when they're on that striker's heels is like taking candy from a baby. It is SIMPLE to play football, because players understand these things, so they avoid doing them. In real life anyway. But sliders have not got the capacity to make players play football. It is programming. The players must have some idea of what they should do, regardless of the managers tactical ideas. Tactics are being developed more and more, ever since Brazil invented the back four, really, and turn into very complex issues the higher up the food chain you go, so to speak, but the players themselves still understand how to play football. They just fit the tactics into that understanding.

If the match engine cannot represent the basic ideas behind how a football game is played, ie defending a ball even though you are being used as a fast striker, then the game is just a joke. Sorry, but you can't tell me that Gael Clichy throws the ball in to opposition players three times in a match and says to his manager "but boss, you told me to take them quickly..." That is rubbish.

I still want a refund, not because the game is so awful at representing how football players play, but because it claims to do it excellently. And every single person who has played a season or two of it knows exactly what I mean.

Talking of blanket statements which simply are not true, i am currently in 2022 managing Braintree Town who i have taken from the BSS to the Premiership. I have won the league in the last 2 years, and have won the Champions league 3 times in a row as well.

My players do not do what you claim they 'all' do, my players do not run into defenders all the time, infact, one of my two strikers is setup to make excellent long runs with the ball, Dentinho and Aguero have done this excellently for me.

In summary, i have obviously played the game for a number of seasons, and i have no idea what you mean.

As for a refund.....get real.

Abu: I think you'll have more chance of a refund if you actually post the game back to SI and write a letter... I can't imagine SI just sending you a cheque on the basis of a forum post.

IMO though, the game is realistic. If you want to be able to recreate the full experience, then you need to slow the game down and micro-manage each and every fixture. You need to be the Martin O'Niell or Sam Allerdyce. Standing on the touchline barking orders every 30 seconds. It's possible and a constant tweaking throughout the match *will* get you this. You would imagine Arsene Wenger would have been screaming at Gael Clichy from the technical area the second time he threw it straight to the opposition.

FM09 is very much a case of getting out what your willing to put in.

You are all, of course, quite correct.

I am wrong to ask for a refund. I am wrong to generalise. i am wrong to voice my discontent in the first place. Oh! Woe is me and curse these inkblack fingers their impetuous freedom!

I just thought that maybe a stat like 'conscious brain activity' might be more useful than 'flair'.

I thought I explained myself pretty well. It wasn't a "you're wrong" reply. I was simply pointing out that I think you can achieve what you're after with a little more work.

I hope you're not just another one who thinks SI is conspiring against its customers to make a huge profit. Of course they are there to make money - but think they feel they have made a valid game. I know there are issues, no-one is denying that, but I don't think it's unplayable.

sorry. I had a bit of a rant and I think I made a valid point, but you are right. No conspiracy.

Au contraire.

Football manager is simple. You take tactics. You draw arrows on the screen. You give team and individual orders. You move sliders. You choose team talk. And you'll see a result on the pitch.

The case is that if you do everything right, you'll be successful. It may take time, but eventually that's gonna happen.

Now, try to imagine yourself as Ferguson or Benitez or Wenger. How would you explain your tactics to players IRL so that they'd understand it correctly? How do they know without sliders, how creative or attacking they should be? Do they understand your point correctly or will miss the point? Are they able to adjust your tactics on the pitch during the game? How do you know what's your real players exact attributes?

FM is just like a math task. It's complicated and has become more complicated during years, but it's still pure maths, in one form or another. That's why it's way easier than real life where's no certain formulas.

I am going to prove how you don't need a downloaded tactic to win games, I don't get how people are like that, saying I must download some "super" tactic (which in my experience, has made me lose more), whereas my 4-2-3-1 with a few tweaks to the bars, set piece takers set up and positions for corners set up, which took me 10-15 only, and I am unbeaten with Liverpool after 10 games. I also got promoted to the BSP with Staines Town without a downloaded tactic. So people who can't get by on their own tactic just need to put a couple extra minutes work. I personally love this version of FM, as it asks for me to use my mind to win a game, and makes the game so much more realistic. If they could make it harder, I would be happy.

As regards to tactics persistence is the key i've tweak my defensive 4-4-2 formation since FM05 each edition what comes out i have to change the formation slightly to get it right,i got it almost perfect on a previous save with Novara in serie c but when i started a new game a couple of days ago with Parma the formation just was'nt clicking the team was very inconsistent but i stuck with it and after 13 league games the team started playing and i am now slowly climbing the table with the best recent form in the league.