Old Players (over 30), Stats and Retires

Hello everybody, I start a new topic because i don't know if anybody has already write about this problem:

In all my careers I noticed that very often happens saome strange things: it's not a bug but just an unrealistic thing.

1) Players over 30 y.o. loose too quick their stats, and if it can be right for physical stats it shouldn't be so for technical and mental stats.

2) Players over 30 y.o., loosing so quick their stats, even their are a top class players, are too quick put in the reserve team or on the transfer list (even when their are the history of the team Totti for the Rome, Del Piero for the Juventus, Scholes for Man Utd, ecc.)and so too often go to play to minor teams (for ex. Henry at 34 to Laval)

3)Too many players retire around 33-35 years, when, i think, a lots of important career end a little later.

So it's not a big thing but i think that woul be a right thing make the player's stats decrease a little later, giving 2-3 years at good level to many players.

Hello everybody, I start a new topic because i don't know if anybody has already write about this problem:

In all my careers I noticed that very often happens saome strange things: it's not a bug but just an unrealistic thing.

1) Players over 30 y.o. loose too quick their stats, and if it can be right for physical stats it shouldn't be so for technical and mental stats.

2) Players over 30 y.o., loosing so quick their stats, even their are a top class players, are too quick put in the reserve team or on the transfer list (even when their are the history of the team Totti for the Rome, Del Piero for the Juventus, Scholes for Man Utd, ecc.)and so too often go to play to minor teams (for ex. Henry at 34 to Laval)

3)Too many players retire around 33-35 years, when, i think, a lots of important career end a little later.

So it's not a big thing but i think that woul be a right thing make the player's stats decrease a little later, giving 2-3 years at good level to many players.

I reply myself just to say sorry for my bad very bad english :S

Your English is better than my Italian.

The aging model depends on the player's position and playing time.

Defenders and defensive midfielders are likely to last much longer. I've had a 38-year-old defender and a 36-year-old DM contribute at the Premier League level.

Strikers and attacking players are likely to lose their edge earlier. I've seen a 30-year-old striker whom I thought was past it .. but I've also had a 33-year-old score goals with regularity.

A 36 year old Juan Roman Riquelme in my game has a 2 acceleration, 2 agility, 1 pace, 3 stamina, 3 strength. He still has atleast 16 points in corners, crossing, free kicks, long shots, passing, penalty taking, technique, concentration, creativity, decisions, determination, and flair, though I don't know what he could really do with those physical stats.

As he said, some positions last longer. GKs obviously last the longest. CBs also last quite long. Gallas for example, at 34, are still top notch.

Sometimes, your training regime can play a part too, but generally as said defenders & keepers last the longest.

I got Gary Neville to 44 on 07 and he was still my first choice and England first choice right back. He had lost his pace and was down to about 4 or 5 but still had the ability well balanced which regens lacked.

It depends on the position really, CM's who sit and hold the ball in the middle can play with little pace as long as their passing, and relative abilities are good, but you don't want a 35+ year old (generally) on the wings because they will struggle to get past the defenders.

My only complaint is strength is not kept separate, if anything players can become stronger towards the end of their career than before - if you see the worlds strongest men contests etc very few are in their 20's most are late 30's early 40's so it wouldn't be as bad if you could convert your veterans to more beefed up holding players as their days drew to a close.

Some players will naturally age terribly due to various stats, others will be like a fountain of youth.

I have the opposite problem on my Atletico Save A 37 year Old Henry is still the top goal scorer of the league and always scores against me

Yeah in my Everton game I bought Riquelme when he had just turned 30 and his stats all fell by one... some of them rose again but the majority stayed down... twas a pity becuase I really bought him for his passing stat of 20.

As I have said in other thread;

Players above the age of 30 loose psycical stats way to fast in FM 08.

If you look at player like Maldini, Cafu, Serginho and Inzaghi they still have good pace and all can play 90 min in reallife.

In FM, as soon as a player get 30 or 31 year old you see pace, acc, stamina and strenght drop so fast its unreal.

Just look at Cafu, hes 37 and he just keep running forward as often as possible all 90 min..

Take anyone in the game who is around 30 year old with high psycical stats then look at him 4 years later - all those stats will be be under 10 .

A high value in professionism and ambition should allow that player to keep hes CA very high even at age above 30 imo!

What I meen is that a player with high professionism and ambition should not peak at the age of 30..there should be some +- variable of 3-4 year on players with very high values so the CA doesnt drop 10-15 points as soon as they get 31 or 32 year old .

Every player in the game who is under 30 will be "useless" when they reach 34.

Even those with 20 professionlism, 20 ambition and a CA above 180 ..the psycical stats will still be under 10 when they get 34 years old - maybe its a bug ?

Just to give you an idea; in my milan game, end of first season; Oddo(from 30 to 31 years old), Nesta(31-32), Ronaldo(30-31) and Ambrosini(30-31) all lost around 15 Points over one year . Pace, acc, stamina, jumping and strength all drop 1 or 2 points. Inzaghi who is 34 and very soon 35 ..is totally useless now since he lost 20 points(from 171 to 150), hes pace is 11 , acc 12, strenght 9, 12 stamina etc

Its to fast SI..way to fast for high professional players..

One thing i have always struggled with in FM is how ageing players are still represented at top level, Gerrard/Lampard/Beckham all still with 150+ caps in Eng team at 35+ in previous Fms.

With this version i think they have done a great job, basically between 30/40 you will suddenly get a report from you Assman saying that he is looking past it, you will notice perfomances and stats begin to plumit and after a year or so the player looks well past it.

This is how i would prefer it and i think its very realistic, not all players flop at 30 some going much longer especially with regualr football, and the above referneces are age record breaking players that defied physics by contuing to play, wheras you will see pro start to dwindle or move down the leagues.

What im trying to say is old players need as much care as youth players, dont throw youngsters in too erly and dont start dropping old players too soon, i have had especially defenders have their best seasons at 33+, as physical stats go down, mental stats will rise...

it's interesting that some users have had an opposite problem.

Well, i Know that aging model depends on the player's position, but I still believe that stats decrease too fast after 30 years.

I repeat, it's not a big problem -this year I find the game very good, sure the best of all FM and CM - but i think it's worth to discuss about every thing that can improve the game.

I was well annoyed when good old Johnny Woodgate was way past his peak at 31!!!

I spent 8 million on him two seasons prior, it needs to be sorted, its an unrealistic problem

I agree that some mental attributes, like Decisions, Anticipation, Influence, Composure should go up even when CA starts to drop.

What we get now in the game is this: all stats drop with old age, even mental ones, although the experienced players still do get to play smarter and more composed. I think SI have done this due to coding issues, but it should be changed at some point.

The same goes for Strength. I am pretty confident that the strongest athletes in all sports are usually above 30yo. I used to be a water polo player, and the strongest ones were always above 30. I do amateur running, and the runners with the strongest legs are again well above 30.

I'm annoyed too, it forces me to sell my players once they reach 30 for the sake of the wage bill.

I think this needs tweaking because there seems to be a massive ability/stats drop once they hit 30.

I have been checking players CA and it's not unusual to lose between 15-20 CA once they hit 30, even if they are playing regular.

I've had Bojinov on my game for years and he's been a goal scoring super star hero every season. He scored about 20 last season, hit 30 and never scored again. Now he is 31 and he has lost about 25 CA.

I haven't had one player who has managed to keep playing above the age of 31. As brazil manager Robinho is the only player I have seen who stayed good until he was 32/33 but in 18 months he has lost about 40 CA and is rubbish now.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have been checking players CA and it's not unusual to lose between 15-20 CA once they hit 30, even if they are playing regular. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have been checking players CA and it's not unusual to lose between 15-20 CA once they hit 30, even if they are playing regular. - each season I mean**

Another problem with this is because of the problem with youth development most players don't actually get anywhere near their CA until they about 23-26 so it means you can only end up getting 5 good seasons out of newgens!

I think the physical statistics shouldn't decrease that drastically, too. Giggs may be slower now in his old days, but he can still outpace full-backs. Zidane, too, just before he retired.

That said, for a lot of these players, they still do extremely well - as long as they stand still.

Hmm. Okay. I don't sell my old players often, preferring to see them through to retirement with my side if I can afford to.

Just looking over my oldest players from a long-running FM'05 game:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Position SC SC ML DR DC DM DC

Age 31 31 32 34 34 36 38

Dribbling 19 16 16 9 11 11 10

Finishing 14 20 18 9 10 4 9

First Touch 18 17 11 11 10 14 9

Heading 13 10 19 14 16 14 17

Long Shots 10 18 19 14 9 19 5

Marking 6 7 13 16 20 13 16

Passing 14 16 15 14 11 15 8

Tackling 5 5 9 15 16 15 13

Technique 20 17 17 13 10 11 10

Aggression 6 5 10 17 16 14 19

Anticipation 16 15 17 16 17 14 14

Bravery 12 7 8 15 15 13 19

Composure 18 17 18 17 15 14 13

Concentration 16 15 19 16 17 14 13

Creativity 14 15 14 11 11 10 8

Decisions 14 15 17 16 15 14 14

Determination 13 14 17 14 17 19 20

Flair 20 14 11 11 10 7 17

Influence 10 6 11 13 15 14 17

Off The Ball 18 19 20 9 12 19 10

Positioning 11 15 11 20 17 15 13

Teamwork 8 10 12 17 15 10 18

Work Rate 12 14 11 18 14 14 15

Acceleration 17 14 17 11 12 10 10

Agility 18 14 15 12 11 11 11

Balance 18 15 11 13 14 11 19

Jumping 16 7 15 13 17 12 15

N. Fitness 15 14 20 17 13 16 20

Pace 16 17 17 12 11 10 8

Stamina 15 18 18 14 13 13 10

Strength 13 8 13 14 13 18 11</pre>

1. I know it's FM'05, not FM'08; sorry, I don't have a long-enough-running FM'08 game to have a good judge.

2. I didn't cherry-pick; I listed every player on my squad or Reserves over the age of 30.

3. Decisions, Concentration, Anticipation, Composure, Determination .. the Mental stats that I'd expect to see stay high have stayed high.

4. The "weaknesses" - basically, any stat which is under 10, for any player listed, have always been weaknesses for those players.

5. They all have very high Natural Fitness, Determination, and Work Rate .. which might translate to the sort of work ethic and physique that you'd expect to see last for a long time.

6. Because I have a strong youth setup, I've tended to "protect" my older players by giving youngsters plenty of games, so none of these players are getting "overworked" .. but except for the 38-year-old, they're still starting plenty of matches - so they're not losing motivation because they're rotting in the Reserves.

7. My training schedule doesn't over-work them.

8. The only things which feel "off" to me are the low Technique, First Touch, and Creativity for the four oldest players .. I'm pretty sure that they were all better at their peak, and those don't seem quite like the attributes I'd expect to drop off so incredibly.

Honestly?

That doesn't look "badly broken" to me...

... unless FM'08 has taken a dramatically large change to that model .. in which case, I'd like somebody to demonstrate that with longitudinal data.

Its nice info Amaroq, but alot has change since fm 05

Fm 08 is different, as you can read in patch notes:

Football Manager 2008 v8.0.1

- Adjusted the physical attributes decline for older players to start earlier

And this IS a problem

Like I said before, very professional players should not loose physical attributes as fast as they do atm. If you have a striker with 20 pace 20 acc, when he get 29-30 years old they begin to drop and 3-4 years later they will be around 10 - even tho he got 20 in professionalism. This is not very realistic is it?

In my opinion the system is representative of approx 75% of players, but it appears it has the same affect on everyone - ie once past 30, every single player gets worse.

I'll take an example - Panucci at Roma - age 34. His CA dropped by about 25 points for me and I'm only in February! His physical stats have seen a huge drop off particularly stamina and pace (about 3-4 points each). It is not my training schedule as generally everyone else has improved, besides Totti and Tonetto who are also past it according to the game!

The main problem is exactly the same thing happens to every player - once they get past 30 they drop off. It doesn't reflect real life at all - Panucci and Totti are arguably at their peaks at the moment, both are in outstanding form and certainly don't seem to be past it.

I don't mind the system as for a large proportion of players e.g. Ljungberg, Hasselbaink etc. generally get worse around or over 30. However there are still some outstanding golden oldies - Panucci, Nesta, Maldini etc. that really aren't represented well in-game. Can't there be an extra attribute e.g. resiliance to ageing!

We dont need an extra attribute. High professionalism should make players keep working hard in training to maintain the physical stats at a high level - even above the age of 30.

F.eks in my game Nesta lost 2-3 points in strenght, stamina, jumping, pace, acc and agility from after he got 32 yeas old... Hello would this happend in realife?

Teddy Sheringham is still a footballing genius, as was Dennis Bergkamp when he just about to retire, mental stats should even increase, especially things like creativity....

I do remember this being a problem on the older CM/FM games but it did seemed to be fixed in FMO5. I've a story/experiment going at the minute where I've put the best over 35's in FM05 (forgot about Bergkamp actully)in one Conference North team, Runcorn. Probably unsurprisingly, they've won all but two games which they drew. More interestingly though, they've beaten two Championship teams by large margins and have reached the fifth round of the FA cup. I started FM08 recently but havn't got very far, it would be very disappionting if something which had been fixed was a problem again.

The problem is the system that SI use to generate the stats. We are led to believe that if someone has a CA of 180 then (for example) they have 180 points to spend on attributes.

So...(Taking a couple of stats for example)

Technical

Finishing....18

Passing......13

Long Shots...11

Tackling.....10

Technique....13 (Total 65)

Mental

Anticipation.12

Composure....14

Decisions....12

Influence.....3

Off The Ball.14 (Total 55)

Physical

Acceleration.15

Agilty.......8

Pace.........15

Stamina......12

Strength.....10 (Total 60)

These stats = 180

Now when a player gets older 'passes' their peak, their CA will start to decline but their Mental attributes continue to increase. Now if the CA drops to say, 165 (a 15 point loss), then the stats will have to reflect that. However because the mental attributes go up bigger losses occur to technical (less likely) and physical.

So...

Technical

Finishing....15

Passing......12

Long Shots...9

Tackling.....8

Technique....11 (Total 55)

Mental

Anticipation.14

Composure....15

Decisions....14

Influence.....7

Off The Ball.15 (Total 65)

Physical

Acceleration.11

Agilty.......6

Pace.........11

Stamina......9

Strength.....8 (Total 45)

These stats = 165

Now obviously because I have taken a small section of stats the results are more glaring but you see my point.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Joor:

Its nice info Amaroq, but alot has change since fm 05

Fm 08 is different, as you can read in patch notes:

Football Manager 2008 v8.0.1

- Adjusted the physical attributes decline for older players to start earlier

And this IS a problem </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair enough, Joor - but I don't have an FM'08 game "old" enough to judge. (I'm a full-time professional with a family and I play very slowly, so there's no way my 18-months-of-game-time 8.0.1 career is worth looking at for a longitudinal aging study.)

Can you - or somebody - please do the same summary for an 8.0.1 squad from game year 2018 or later?

Thank you.

(Err.. and obviously, this won't be useful if you sell all your players at age 30, habitually. )