Lower league player physical atts way too low

I cannot understand why 99% of lower league players physical attributes are extremely low. In reality, in the real world they are no where near as low as they are in the game. Its just a joke. Most of the players in non-league (i.e. Blue square) are under 10 for all of their physical attributes. This completely unrealistic. Their mental or skill attributes aren't in the same league as premiership players I agree, but physically they are around the same and I'm sure some players would be just as strong if not stronger and faster than a lot of players in higher leagues.

I agree that it's a problem. Usually if a player is playing in the lower leagues it's because they don't have the right set of skills to be successful...but for the game to limit them to an 8 for speed and 6 stamina is sad. The vast majority of lower league players are fine athletes that simply lack the polish of their bigger league brothers. A perfect example is American players. There's no denying that we have incredible athletes, but this comes at the cost of our game emphasizing speed and physicality over technical skill. Hence, we usually struggle when playing in the bigger European leagues (goalies excluded, of course!) Eddie Johnson, anyone?

BSP etc. don't have the kind of facilities the EPL has, most Prem sides have specialised training and fitness coaches for their players, if you put an average BSP player up against an average Prem player their fitness will be much lower 99% of the time.

Yeah, I agree with that. There should be more chance to develop those physically gifted players even with lower potential.

In real life, a player with physical talents can improve on their footballing skill, whereas a skilful player cannot probably become and 11.00 sec 100 metre runner, so to speak.

The game, however will just give them low potential. You don't see the Jimmy Bullards and DJ Campbells and Jermaine Beckfords in FM very often. Players that have worked hard to become better than anyone thought they could be.

I agree it is not very realistic.

There are some very strong and some very quick players at lower league level who don't have much else to their game. As many have pointed out before for example, look at Michael Owen's physical stats - there is no way he is stronger physically then some of the bruisers in the lower league - in fact he would get murdered at that level - but this is not reflected in the game. It is because of the CA/PA system that they just can't give LL player high stats in any category otherwise it would unbalance the game since there is no distinction to where potential ability gets assigned.

Alot of them aren't strong though, just stocky. There are some real bruisers though

Alot of them aren't strong though, just stocky. There are some real bruisers though

Are you saying they are short and fat? lol

A lot of these guys are very strong and very fit. It's their lack of talent which prevents them from playing at a higher level.

I watch BSP every week, yes quite a few of them are stocky, theres honestly not that many that are fitness machines like most Prem players have ended up.

Agreed. Although the OP still has a point that their physical stats are always low whereas some of the players should have much higher.

BSP etc. don't have the kind of facilities the EPL has, most Prem sides have specialised training and fitness coaches for their players, if you put an average BSP player up against an average Prem player their fitness will be much lower 99% of the time.

I disagree. So your saying every non league player is lazy and unfit. I don't think so. I used to run in marathons and I can assure I would last far longer in a game than 99% of English prem payers. Just because they don't have the facilities doesn't mean they aren't as fit nor as fast nor as strong. There are local gyms you know.

A prime example, I used to play football for my local area one player could run the 100 meters in less than 10seconds and ran for Scotland in competitions. So what your saying is completely wrong.

BSP etc. don't have the kind of facilities the EPL has, most Prem sides have specialised training and fitness coaches for their players, if you put an average BSP player up against an average Prem player their fitness will be much lower 99% of the time.

I agree it is not very realistic.

There are some very strong and some very quick players at lower league level who don't have much else to their game. As many have pointed out before for example, look at Michael Owen's physical stats - there is no way he is stronger physically then some of the bruisers in the lower league - in fact he would get murdered at that level - but this is not reflected in the game. It is because of the CA/PA system that they just can't give LL player high stats in any category otherwise it would unbalance the game since there is no distinction to where potential ability gets assigned.

There is a distinction - its in their skill level. Their physical atts should not be compromised because of that.

I think you have to look at the attributes of a player more on a sliding scale than just as realistic features of a player. Its more a way of quantifying a players ability than "actual" attributes. I think.

Look at it this way, a player with speed and acceleration 1 & 1 and another player with 20 and 20, doesn't mean that the second player is 20 times faster than the first player. Its more an "adjusted" or sliding scale, so for example the game may have set that the slowest player could run the 100m in 15 seconds and the fastest player could do it in 10 seconds flat. So, in theory, the faster guy will have pace of 20 and the slower guy, his will be 1. But in reality, the slower guy is not as slow as a Tortoise, but for purposes of the game mechanism, he is "quantified" as such.

I think you have to look at the attributes of a player more on a sliding scale than just as realistic features of a player. Its more a way of quantifying a players ability than "actual" attributes. I think.

Look at it this way, a player with speed and acceleration 1 & 1 and another player with 20 and 20, doesn't mean that the second player is 20 times faster than the first player. Its more an "adjusted" or sliding scale, so for example the game may have set that the slowest player could run the 100m in 15 seconds and the fastest player could do it in 10 seconds flat. So, in theory, the faster guy will have pace of 20 and the slower guy, his will be 1. But in reality, the slower guy is not as slow as a Tortoise, but for purposes of the game mechanism, he is "quantified" as such.

I understand what your saying but I still feel that their phsycial atts should not be compromised because of that. Their other atts yes but not their physical. It should be based on skill and mentality level not all levels/atts. SI need to sort this out to make it more realistic.

Although it is unrealistic, it has to be this way for game balancing purposes because there isn't any way of keeping the CA locked into physical attributes. It would need a radical overhaul on the CA/PA system so that the physical attributes are separate from the other attributes and that is unlikely to happen in the immediate future.

Another thing is the effectiveness of physical abilities according to the match engine. It simply overrates them. Even a powerhouse with low technical ability can do his job decently in the Premier League. I'm sure there are some technically skilled players with low physical ability and fitness playing in the BSN. For example, 12 technique in comparison to 3 technique a powerhouse might have. However, according to what the OP is suggesting, then the powerhouse might have 17 str, pace, jumping, in comparison to the 3 str the technically skilled player has. Even though the technical player might be much more effective in real life, it's not the case in the match engine.

Now for the argument that this system should be changed. Let's say you buy a muscular BSN player for the Premier League, there's no way he should be out-muscled by Michael Owen.

I disagree. So your saying every non league player is lazy and unfit. I don't think so. I used to run in marathons and I can assure I would last far longer in a game than 99% of English prem payers. Just because they don't have the facilities doesn't mean they aren't as fit nor as fast nor as strong. There are local gyms you know.

A prime example, I used to play football for my local area one player could run the 100 meters in less than 10seconds and ran for Scotland in competitions. So what your saying is completely wrong.

When did I say every player is?

In real life, a player with physical talents can improve on their footballing skill, whereas a skilful player cannot probably become and 11.00 sec 100 metre runner, so to speak.

Surely the other way around is more likely? If you're crap at football, you're crap at football and although you can probably improve a bit with proper training you won't ever be very good. If you're very good at football but a bit fat and slow, you can shed a few pounds and do some sprint training and still be very good at football (probably even better since your balance would be improved and you'd be more explosive).

Anyway, your analogy is a bit off. Since 11 sec 100m-runners are pretty rare, could your average "player with physical talents" improve on their footballing skill to the level of, say, a good premiership footballer? That'd be the rough equivalent of your average "skilful player" becoming an 11.00 sec 100 metre runner. I'd say the latter is much more feasible.

I know that in America there is a saying in sports that "you can't teach speed" -meaning, if given the choice of a technically skilled but physically limited player or a raw genetic freak, you take the freak and try to teach him how to play. There really isn't going to be much difference in terms of athleticism between 95% or so of lower league and Premier League players -it all comes down to talent and skill, which is where the Premier League has the advantage with better coaches and facilities.

I disagree. So your saying every non league player is lazy and unfit. I don't think so. I used to run in marathons and I can assure I would last far longer in a game than 99% of English prem payers. Just because they don't have the facilities doesn't mean they aren't as fit nor as fast nor as strong. There are local gyms you know.

A prime example, I used to play football for my local area one player could run the 100 meters in less than 10seconds and ran for Scotland in competitions. So what your saying is completely wrong.

Dwayne Chambers PB is 10 flat. He is currently Britains quickest 100m runner i believe. And you are saying you know someone quicker. The person you are on about would have finished 7th in the Olympics with 10 flat. Also you say under, which implies 9.9-9.95ish. This is bronze medal to 5th place.

To cut to my point, i think/know you are lying to make your point.

However i agree with your point.

Dwayne Chambers PB is 10 flat. He is currently Britains quickest 100m runner i believe. And you are saying you know someone quicker. The person you are on about would have finished 7th in the Olympics with 10 flat. Also you say under, which implies 9.9-9.95ish. This is bronze medal to 5th place.

To cut to my point, i think/know you are lying to make your point.

However i agree with your point.

Yes, although he is now in a wheelchair (car accident) and has been for many years so he isn't exactly going to run anymore is he. Before he ran in any major competition he sadly was involved in a serious accident. A shame really because this guy was bloody fast and very tall. It was like seeing a dadly long leg running at lightning speed. He's about 32 years old now. My brother also ran for Scotland back in the mid 90s although he did just under 11secs at the time and although he was fast, not fast anough because at the time there was two other Scottish runner quicker than him in under 11 seconds I think one of them runs for Britain in competitions or did anyway. The junior record for Scotland is very fast and I know for a fact brittish runners have done way under 10secs. And NO im not lying.

Dwayne Chambers PB is 9.87 seconds. Get your facts right. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/3203743.stm

I think 10 is his yearly best for 08, sorry.

Way under 10 secs?

The world record is 9.72. And the British record is about 9.85 (guess). I guess this as the world record was 9.79 in 2005 and we haven't beat that.

yeah the physical differences are far more drastic than they should be, especially with jumping and acceleration. however on the wholesome i think it's fair to say top level players are a little bit fitter than ones below.

British record is 9.87 actually, my mistake.

There is a significant difference in the physique of Blue Square-level players and Premiership-level players. Even the likes of Rooney have significantly bulked up since moving from Everton to Manchester United.

While there are people out there who can run 100m in 10 seconds, can they do such a thing in football gear; wearing studs; while being tackled, scratched, headbutted, shoved, jumped upon, kicked, hassled, shoulder-barged and under pressure? Even Theo Walcott struggles against significantly slower players sometimes.

Which is why, yes, there is a big difference. I don't watch lower-league but in terms of fitness, even weaker teams in the Premiership can't use their "lower-league battering rams" to full effect - the likes of Ricardo Fuller, for example. There is a big difference. A Blue Square Premier "strongman" - heavily built, used as a targetman - will struggle in the Premiership against even the weaker centre-backs. Yeah, Strongman is pretty strong and well-built, but so are Premiership centre-backs.

Just use Rooney as an example. Back with Everton, he didn't quite have the fitness to hold off defenders and finish whole games for sustained period of time. Now, several years later, he's a physical powerhouse.

since moving from Everton to Manchester United.

You comparing us to the BSP?!

;-)

Dwayne Chambers PB is 10 flat. He is currently Britains quickest 100m runner i believe. And you are saying you know someone quicker. The person you are on about would have finished 7th in the Olympics with 10 flat. Also you say under, which implies 9.9-9.95ish. This is bronze medal to 5th place.

To cut to my point, i think/know you are lying to make your point.

However i agree with your point.

I think 10 is his yearly best for 08, sorry.

Way under 10 secs?

The world record is 9.72. And the British record is about 9.85 (guess). I guess this as the world record was 9.79 in 2005 and we haven't beat that.

What I mean by way is somethlng like 9.96. I dont know the exact times he clocked and I couldnt have cared less. All I remember is that he ran for Scotland and was about to enter a competition. Theres a story in one of the papers about it. Just like the young hurdler who ate a sandwich which cotnained traces of peanut in it and he died. He was Scottish and touted to be the best in the world and he smashed the indoor Scottish records. I take it im lying about that too.

I don't think so. I used to run in marathons and I can assure I would last far longer in a game than 99% of English prem players

Don't talk crap mate

Don't talk crap mate

Excuse me? Just cause your someone who sits in front of the telly and wouldnt last 5 seconds in a Marathon never mind walking to the nearest McDonalds.

Here's the first bit of evidence. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sport/371534.stm

Im going to try and find the article about the runner and me entering of the Marathon competition. Then those that call me a lyer can stick where the sun dont shine.

I know that in America there is a saying in sports that "you can't teach speed" -meaning, if given the choice of a technically skilled but physically limited player or a raw genetic freak, you take the freak and try to teach him how to play. There really isn't going to be much difference in terms of athleticism between 95% or so of lower league and Premier League players -it all comes down to talent and skill, which is where the Premier League has the advantage with better coaches and facilities.

I think the opposite, there's a big difference. Also, there are a lot of cases that happened the other way arround. Players with great talent, skill if you like, but not so developed physically, with proper training and guidance improved a lot in that area. I remember Toni Kukoc-a well known European basketball player- before he signed for the Cicago Bulls (NBA), was very thin but skilfull player. In Europe he was one of the best, but there was no way he could compete against the NBA "monsters". But following a special training regime he gained weight and muscles ,thus the power to compete face to face with his opponents.

Same goes for football players who want to compete at a higher level. They might be fast and strong, but can they mentain their skills for 90', sprint after sprint, tackling after tackling, at an axhausting tempo, against better trained opponents? Do they have the "explosion" needed to beat the offside trap? Why a lower level team when competing a top one seem to be playing in half speed than their opponents? Why LL teams seem to collapse after 60-70 mins against a top team? So, imo the better training facilities, schedules, coaches, even nutritionists, make a big difference in player's fitness and not just in their skills.

Excuse me? Just cause your someone who sits in front of the telly and wouldnt last 5 seconds in a Marathon never mind walking to the nearest McDonalds.

Oh really? Got any proof or is that just frivolous accusations? And fwiw I ran cross country last week, a bit longer than a walk past mcdonalds.

My point still stands, premier league footballers are trained to last 90 minutes sprinting, last I checked marathon runners jog (not saying that completing a marathon isn't a feat though)

I agree. Its all well and good saying that better clubs have better training facilities but to suggest that say C.Ronaldo is stronger than most lower league players is stupid.

Its a case of the higher level players get better stats, end of.

Ronaldo is pretty strong, he just doesn't act like it.

Ronaldo is pretty strong, he just doesn't act like it.

What I'm saying is I'd like to see him in a rl fight with your average lower league centre back who according to fm has less strength than Ronaldo.

I have no doubt they'd beat him in a fight but short of fouling him most of them would have trouble getting him off the ball.

The problem with this is the players aren't up to a particularly high standard in the lower league, and because of how each attribute is 'weighted' if players have good physical stats then they'll struggle elsewhere. If a player has a CA of about 25, they can't be expected to have pace of 20. This is an area we're always looking into, thanks for bringing it up, but the way the game is currently designed this is how it's supposed to be.

That's actually a really good point and one I hope that SI looks into. It may come down to requiring two sets of abilities -one for technical skill, the other for physical attributes- or else not factoring the likes of pace, jumping, etc. into the CA formula.

Just use Rooney as an example. Back with Everton, he didn't quite have the fitness to hold off defenders and finish whole games for sustained period of time. Now, several years later, he's a physical powerhouse.

Rooney was still maturing into a man during his Everton days, though, and nowhere near his prime. It's unlikely that his current body would look significantly different had he stayed at Everton or played in a lower league. There isn't some secret exclusive to the top teams of football wherein they can make players bigger, stronger or faster -rather, they have top-notch coaches that are able to extract every last bit of talent from a player, and that's where the differences between leagues come in.

as irl, the physically strongest fighters aren't always the best. It gives them an advantage but it's the more skillful and faster fighter that usually trumps. Talking about boxing and MMA not handbags between two morons at the local mall.

Ali vs. Foreman or vs. Joe Frazier is a good example.

See midgets Messi, Pele, and Maradona. Some of the shortest people you'd ever see on a pitch.

Rooney was still maturing into a man during his Everton days, though, and nowhere near his prime. It's unlikely that his current body would look significantly different had he stayed at Everton or played in a lower league. There isn't some secret exclusive to the top teams of football wherein they can make players bigger, stronger or faster -rather, they have top-notch coaches that are able to extract every last bit of talent from a player, and that's where the differences between leagues come in.

True, although the development is still there, and fairly significant in itself.

Look at the slowest centre backs in the prem and how they get roasted on occasion, imagine a player 5 times slower. This is the average standard of physical ability for League 2 and down. 40 year olds with no stamina/pace/strength can and do make a living at this level. There is no comparison between the premiership and even the championship, let alone non-league footballers.

edit: I'd argue the real point is stamina, NO non-league player could play a game at the pace of a premiership game, I reckon they wouldn't last 10 minutes.

as irl, the physically strongest fighters aren't always the best. It gives them an advantage but it's the more skillful and faster fighter that usually trumps. Talking about boxing and MMA not handbags between two morons at the local mall.

Ali vs. Foreman or vs. Joe Frazier is a good example.

See midgets Messi, Pele, and Maradona. Some of the shortest people you'd ever see on a pitch.

The fighting example wasn't the best maybe.

I'm just saying that the level of football a player is at seems to directly influence his stats - no matter if they are relevent to footballing ability or not.

I'd argue the real point is stamina, NO non-league player could play a game at the pace of a premiership game, I reckon they wouldn't last 10 minutes.

It's decision making, anticipation and concentration that separate a top level player from an average one.

Look at the slowest centre backs in the prem and how they get roasted on occasion, imagine a player 5 times slower. This is the average standard of physical ability for League 2 and down. 40 year olds with no stamina/pace/strength can and do make a living at this level. There is no comparison between the premiership and even the championship, let alone non-league footballers.

edit: I'd argue the real point is stamina, NO non-league player could play a game at the pace of a premiership game, I reckon they wouldn't last 10 minutes.

And I'd argue that the reason those 40 year-olds can still play in the lower leagues is thier reliance on skill and awareness, not physical tools. The highest levels obviously require both, and the lower leagues one or the other.

Regardless, nbrocky already mentioned that this a result of the game's structure and not real-life differences in physical ability, so the whole argument is moot.

And I'd argue that the reason those 40 year-olds can still play in the lower leagues is thier reliance on skill and awareness, not physical tools. The highest levels obviously require both, and the lower leagues one or the other.

Regardless, nbrocky already mentioned that this a result of the game's structure and not real-life differences in physical ability, so the whole argument is moot.

So,because nbrocky mentioned it, should we all admit that there's no real life difference to the physical abilities between LL and top club players? That is, semi-pro players can play 90' at the same tempo, speed, intensity with their pro counterparts. They just luck the skill. Then I guess all the bigger clubs could stop investing in methods, staff and equipment to enhance their player's fitness speed and stamina, as it seems that some personal training is enough. A la Rocky-against-the Russian guy style.

remember to take into account what leagues in the world require different skills.

like in spain they play a more slow technical game, which would suit the slower players with more skill.

in englands prem, being physically powerfull would be of advantage.

It's decision making, anticipation and concentration that separate a top level player from an average one.

That is true, but you can be the most intelligent player in the world for all you care - if you have the physical strength of a midget, you still won't succeed.

Like it or not, there are physical "requirements" for the Premiership - like the ability to last 90 minutes.

So,because nbrocky mentioned it, should we all admit that there's no real life difference to the physical abilities between LL and top club players? That is, semi-pro players can play 90' at the same tempo, speed, intensity with their pro counterparts. They just luck the skill. Then I guess all the bigger clubs could stop investing in methods, staff and equipment to enhance their player's fitness speed and stamina, as it seems that some personal training is enough. A la Rocky-against-the Russian guy style.

I didn't realize that the lower league teams didn't have the energy to run around the field for 90 minutes...I guess they just walk around all game? Must be rather boring to watch... Or are you inferring that all semi-pro players are old and decrepit? In which case yes, they wouldn't be able to keep up. Face it: a 23 year-old in a lower league isn't going to be significantly less athletic than a top-tier 23 year-old. Skill-wise? Yes. Speed and stamina? Unlikely.

That is true, but you can be the most intelligent player in the world for all you care - if you have the physical strength of a midget, you still won't succeed.

Like it or not, there are physical "requirements" for the Premiership - like the ability to last 90 minutes.

We're talking about players of similar size here, not midgets.

As for stamina, it's important, but players can be substituted.

The OP is correct - the physical attributes of many players in lower leagues should be on par with those of in EPL and in many cases even higher. There is a huge problem with CA/attributes assignment at the moment, it's good that SI acknowledges it, but they really need to start working on it and fix it.

I didn't realize that the lower league teams didn't have the energy to run around the field for 90 minutes...I guess they just walk around all game? Must be rather boring to watch... Or are you inferring that all semi-pro players are old and decrepit? In which case yes, they wouldn't be able to keep up. Face it: a 23 year-old in a lower league isn't going to be significantly less athletic than a top-tier 23 year-old. Skill-wise? Yes. Speed and stamina? Unlikely.

Are you serious? thats like saying theres no difference between top international sprinters and people who sprint for a local/county/regional team.

You think Premiership and bsp/n/s players have the same(or even remotely similar) fitness/agility/pace/stamina?