FM09 is not a game

FM09 is not a game. A computer game is supposed to challenge you, and reward you when you do things right. Take ANY good video game and this rule will always be there. I can't name many good games where things are random occurences. All good games make you improve, make you think, make you improve on SOMETHING and then reward you for doing so. Take COD for example. Improve your ability to sneak around, improve your reflexes, improve your occuracy, improve your stragedy and you will then kill the opponent.

FM09 is not like this. In FM09, there are WAY too many random occurrences that I think have already been proved. Forget graphics, forget bugs, forget whatever...If a game is mostly built on random occurrences, then there is no point playing. The purpose of playing has been defeated. Of course, randomness will happen in all games but it will be limited.

Take a game in which one level you have to guess the correct door to pass through the next level. One door leads to your death, one door leads to your completion. This is NOT A WELL MADE LEVEL! Randomness is in place. A level in which you have to successfully navigate through using your navigational skills and following a pattern (as in a maze) is much better because technique and a hint of randomness is involved.

A football game (take FIFA or PES for example) in which you have to improve your knowledge of the game, and your effeciency with the buttons to beat the opponenet. It would then not make sense if when you press shoot, your player passes. This is RANDOMNESS.

Let's translate this to FM.

A football management game in which you have to improve your knowledge of the game, how tactics work, how opponents work ect is far more successful than a game in which no matter WHAT tactic you use, you could get completely different results. One tactic will bring you success for 5 games but then may NEVER EVER work again. This is RANDOMNESS. That same tactic on another save will work for you the whole of your career. THIS IS RANDOMNESS! There is NO skill required in either of this. Your tactic "might" work, or your players "might" run around like *******, letting players half as strong as them muscle them off the ball, and fluffing open goals despite having 18 Finishing and 14 Composure.

Research has been done PROVIING randomness, please don't argue this.

Some games are horrible, but some are just not games at all. SI have failed to make a proper video game, because the one basic rule of "improve your skill, be rewarded" is not there.

[/RANT]

Football is random full stop.

Football is random full stop.

No one is denying this.

But if in real life, Arsenal play West Brom 10 times using the same tactic and same players, they will probably win 8-9 of those times.

I honestly think the point of fm has been missed here. It's a management simulation not a traditional video game, The reward is in knowing you've done a good job at the end of the season

I honestly think the point of fm has been missed here. It's a management simulation not a traditional video game, The reward is in knowing you've done a good job at the end of the season

EXACTLY, but I'd like to know that I MYSELF have done well.

Not I've done well cause of randomness, winning the premiership but next season I might finish 15th cause of randomness.

EXACTLY, but I'd like to know that I MYSELF have done well.

Not I've done well cause of randomness, winning the premiership but next season I might finish 15th cause of randomness.

In almost no situation will you win the premiership then come 15th the next season (unless you deliberately sabotage the team).

more like you might come 5th if you're really unlucky all season.

In almost no situation will you win the premiership then come 15th the next season (unless you deliberately sabotage the team).

more like you might come 5th if you're really unlucky all season.

If FM? I think you'll find as low as 7th is possible.

The fact of the matter is, you would feel that you yourself had done well if you didn't read too much into what was going on. If you just played FM for what it is and did well, which many people do, you would take pride in that

The fact of the matter is, you would feel that you yourself had done well if you didn't read too much into what was going on. If you just played FM for what it is and did well, which many people do, you would take pride in that

These random occurrences are obvious whether you read up about them or not.

These random occurrences are obvious whether you read up about them or not.

I didn't say read up on it, I said read too much into it. If you just sat and played FM without thinking "That would never happen IRL" or "That was a random occurrence, that can't be right" then you would get the sense of accomplishment you so yearn for

I guess my current run of 120 unbeaten league games is just a result of pure randomness then. Not a result of carefully scouting, nurturing and promoting youngsters for a decade - or a creating a solid tactic.

If its just randomness, I sincerely hope that FM will be the same for years to come...

I struggle to see your point about randomness being limited - surely if randomness has a limit then it isn't random? Look at the last internatioal fixtures - NI vs Poland - i'm sure boruc would like randomness to be limited but IRL it isn't hence poland lost, FM is nothing more than an attempt to replcate as exceptionally random sport (Hull vs Arsenal this season, Liverpool vs Stoke, Hull vs Utd at old trafford, Liverpool vs Utd, Barca's last defeat etc etc etc) there are so many upsets and results you wouldn't expect that to describe football as anything other than random would be daft.

If you look at whole seasons then generally randomness will be minimised e.g. the league usually has 3 of the big four in the top 4 - how your team perform is more directly governed by your ability than by randomness.

TBH this sounds like a winge by someone who after winning a league hasn't been able to adapt to the AIs tactical changes and is struggling to understand why he isn't continuing to win.

*oh and your analogies are utterly laughable - next thing you'll be comparing FM to a car....

The only random things in FM are things that are random IRL - it is nothing like playing PES and having a player randomly shoot/pass.

Football is semi-random. It is neither completely deterministic nor completely random.

Why not contribute to this serious discussion:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=115020

instead of starting a thread with a numptie rant?

Why not contribute to this serious discussion:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=115020

instead of starting a thread with a numptie rant?

Agreed.

Alot of people have alot to say about this game, yet alot of the players of the game

just don't care about what you have to say..

Is there a 'nobody-cares' forum anywhere?

Also, where can I find the results of this 'research'?

I'd like to see the stats before making my final decision on whether I should keep playing this 'game' or not.

Football is random full stop.

Football is NOT random, but like all elements of life it has random occurences.

dont like it dont play it............as simple as that, God im so clever can i have a gold star please

Why not contribute to this serious discussion:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=115020

instead of starting a thread with a numptie rant?

phnompenhandy show some respect if you dont agree with the thread just say you dont agree no need for making fun of people for expressing an opinion.

" I guess my current run of 120 unbeaten league games is just a result of pure randomness then. Not a result of carefully scouting, nurturing and promoting youngsters for a decade - or a creating a solid tactic." utterly pointless supersaint.

dont like it dont play it............as simple as that, God im so clever can i have a gold star please

Not that black and white, though, is it? Are people not allowed to criticise the game or be frustrated with it now? Perhaps he likes the game but thinks it could be made a lot better. People don't want to just stop playing it.

Despite that, I agree with pretty much nothing the OP said.

I guess my current run of 120 unbeaten league games is just a result of pure randomness then. Not a result of carefully scouting, nurturing and promoting youngsters for a decade - or a creating a solid tactic.

If its just randomness, I sincerely hope that FM will be the same for years to come...

Sounds more like cheating, 120 games without losing, yea right lol. Something in your game is wrong thats for sure.

not necessarily cheating as you know nothing about his game, the further into the game you go the less competition there is, i had a very similar run myself with no cheating!

i dont get what people want with thread like this, you want a game that is the same day in day out. if you choose team x you will more then likely win every game against teams a, b, c, d..... or visa versa. What would be the point. So we could have threads about "Remember back in FM09 when the game was challenging and you had to work for results, i say bring back those days..."

The fun is not at winning, it is at managing.

Come on, football is not all about winning. Ask Pools fans ;p

its just peoples personal opinion. To me id rather spend 5+ seasons developing teams and youth etc and then starting to win and move up the leagues, but some want to start with anyone they like and just win. If they could do this they would be happy, i personally would be the one then posting it should be harder, column A/column B

I didn't say read up on it, I said read too much into it. If you just sat and played FM without thinking "That would never happen IRL" or "That was a random occurrence, that can't be right" then you would get the sense of accomplishment you so yearn for

Spot on that comment!

FM09 is not like this. In FM09, there are WAY too many random occurrences that I think have already been proved.

Research has been done PROVIING randomness, please don't argue this.

Unfortunately your arguments fall down right here. Where has randomness in the game been proved? I've done some of my own tests, not that they were by any means perfect, and have found that the so called 'Butterfly effect' is pretty well balanced.

I've seen nothing on these boards that has even come close to proving there is too much randomness in the game. If I've missed this proof then please link me to it.

Football is a random game. Ched hit the nail on the head for me further up. You only need to look at certain results this season to see that football is a random game. Liverpool vs Stoke is the perfect example, Liverpool should have beaten stoke on both occasions with ease and yet they didnt. Whether the players thought it was a walk in the park or Stoke just upped their game, Liverpool should have won.

Liverpool's Champions League win back in 2005 is also an ideal example. They were not only off the pace in the league but they were struggling to beat the teams lower down and yet they beat a host of great European teams to win the competition.

I do disagree with the opening post however i dont think its fair to ridicule the opening poster just because he has an opinion. This forum is full of helpful people who are more than willing to help and advise where ever they can. However there are some people who seem to look for an opportunity to put someone down and dismiss their opinion.

No one is denying this.

But if in real life, Arsenal play West Brom 10 times using the same tactic and same players, they will probably win 8-9 of those times.

And, I'd imagine, if you played the same game on FM09, Arsenal Vs West Brom, using the same players and tactics, Arsenal would win 8 or 9 times as well?

So, I don't see where that point has any credence in your argument.

Not constructive.

We're all over criticism when it's not a) made up and b) a rant.

Cheers

Matt