FM 2009 - Please Make the Game Fun Again!!!

Management Simulation vs Playability - How to make the game fun again.

If you are like me and have played Football Manager / Champ Manager for at least 10 years, I am sure you will remember the days when you could easily spend a whole night playing the game just to get through a season or rebuild our team for next year. However the latest versions of the game have felt more like a 9-5 desk job rather than something I would sit down to play after I finished work. I would like to give my opinion on how to improve the playability of the game and would hope others will do the same as I believe these forums to be a place for constructive criticisms and positive attitudes rather than just here to have a rant about the game.

First of all, I would like to point out to all the anal forum inspectors out there that I have searched through other topics and I know this debate has been raised numerous times. The idea of the post is to once again highlight these issues and make my own thoughts known.

Secondly, I am in no way trying to put down anyone who works for the game. The simple fact is that they have made the best Football Management game ever created and continue to do so, but I hope that they continue to listen to the customers and look to meet the needs of their customers.

With that in mind I would also like to say that I am a very experienced player and have exhausted each game that has came out including FM 2008 and there is no button, setting or preference I havent clicked on. So, smarmy comments to the question Why is the Game so slow? such as Detail Level Too High or Computer not fast enough are not appreciated.

Ok, introduction done.

Like I said I have been playing FM 2008 and there are just too many things that bore me about this game now. I absolutely love the feeder club stuff, I love most of the new features each year it is released but yet there are too many things in the game which just don't make it fun anymore.

Such as:

Team Talks - Good Idea, but when I let my Asst Manager do it, especially on 8.02 he gives random team talks or none at all. Simple Answer: better the Asst Manager, better the team talks.

Media - Yawn Yawn Yawn - "Berbatov to feature against old club" REPLY, "Media looks forward to upcoming fixture" REPLY, Tottenham to bid for 38 year old I forgot was on my shortlist REPLY ZZZZZZZZZZZZ Simple Answer: Get on with it!!!! If I want to comment I will go to Player> Media Interaction and select my own media interactions, or again why not ASST MAN do this e.g Poyet at Spurs

Game Level - Ok so I admit, going back to the Diablo and 4-1-3-2, Robbie Keane, Tonton Zola Moukoko, Andri Sigporrson supertactics is not the way, but having played the game 10 years and yet having to scroll through hours of shortlists, best players, tactics and whatever forums just so I don't get beat by W.B.A again is just annoying!!!. There is no pick up and play value to Football Manager anymore and it makes it yawn!

Bugs....: Yes, I know that as each thing is changed in the code 1000 other things change and it is impossible to make a bug free game. But personally I don't care if the Indonesian second division has too many subs, I want to be able to do proper team talks and not have to download stuff just because some prat makes Defoe earn $1m a week. urgh come on!!!!!

TRAINING: I just played 3 seasons of CM01-02 and enjoyed it a hell of a lot. The main reason was because players actually improved when you signed them. Like I dunno, the obsurd thought of buying a highly rated youngster and him actually reaching his potential when you have state of the art everything and the best coaches in the world. Simple Answer: No game Sports Interactive have produced has gotten training right, they overhaul, overhaul, overhaul and get it wrong again and again, so just build a simple system that works, CM 01-02 was close.

There are many many more ideas I can give to the game and I hope people take this seriously and put their own pointers in too. My main arguement is the Fun Factor.

Football Manager is a GAME. It should feel like a game when you play it. Management simulation is fun to a point, but when it takes you 3 days to do a season it is fun no more. Here are the guidelines I would like to see applied to FM 2009 to make it fun again!

Average Season - should take no more than 8 hours continuous play.

Assistant Manager - Let the computer do all the things you find tedious e.g Media, Team Talks etc and do them to the standard of Assistant Manager that you hav hired

In Game - Very Fast Commentary should mean Very Fast, maybe even simulate game option?

Training - Anything that makes your young PA players actually reach potential in a good environment

Team Talks - 8.02 Asst Manager For the Fans or None every time is not a team talk, No Major bugs in FM 2009 PLEASE!!!

Media - Detail options, I do not want to have to click through 300 players signing new contracts because my shortlist has to be so big because the game is too hard for me not to miss a player

Simple Answer- Make the Assistant Manger do all the crap you don't want to do to speed the game up and make it playable again. The boffins who have 20 hours a day to do everything themselves can still have the option to do so, and the 95% of the rest who want to pick up and play the game because their team in real life simply isn't as good as they would like to be, well we get our game back!

Thanks SI, and I hope many more customers will produce their own ways of making the game playable again.

Congrats to you!

Anyways two more reasons things need to change.

In how many editions now has the Penalty Shoot out bug been?

Here we go, one of the most fun and dramatic and ultimately playable features of the game ruined!

GOAL FOR TOTTENHAM!!!!

..............pause................ (oh well I've missed!)

SAVED!

zzzzzzzzzzzz

And 'CORNER BUG' How does this happen!!! So I put my Centre Back to Challenge Goalie and I get an extra 40 goals a season.

Must do Better.

Although i find the game stupidly addictive and fun i sort of see the point. I played Fm 05 the other day and i loved it. It was the most fun i have had on a game in ages. Even though it may be techincally and graphically better to navigate and play i think the main reason behind the fun factor on 05 was the speed at which a season went. It was alot quicker, this meant the youth talent developed properly and a career could be played better. When an (actual) week of playing meant a few seasons rather than a few months. To get far on a game now a-days it takes weeks and weeks of effort , and in the past it was simply easier to get along way.

Either that or i'm growing up more than i thaught and slowly loosing more and more time

Please don't forget the fun from football itself. where does it come from. I think as a fan we'd love to watch the matches of our favourite team. So playing the football management simulation game we should feel fun from both managing the team/contribute to the club and watching the nice performances of your lads on the pitch through 2D match engine. So it is always frustrating and boring when noticing some flaws or absurd events happen on the 2d screen and when pressing continue button with no more excitment cos everything is commonly get used to and just repeating.

Real life management would be a hundred times more repetitive than FM is.

Well OK Fine! Just as if I hadn't said anything. Let's repeat! Oh yeah.

Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:

Well OK Fine! Just as if I hadn't said anything. Let's repeat! Oh yeah.

Well how do you propose to make it not repeditive without quitting after a season or two every game?

Should add I agree the media is far too repetitive, but overall management is always going to be about routine.

Game too slow - I agree, unless you have Dual Core and 2gb of RAM. Then it's fast.

I too am sick of having to talk about a former player before a game 3+ seasons after he left!

8 hours!?

8 hours!?!?!?!?

I take 24 and it's fine

You've obviously taken the time to write this, but not sure what the point is. None of hasn't been said and debated before. Mostly answered with "it's your tactics". If you have a grasp of the game you don't really need the tactics forum to beat WBA or "grey" teams - just a bit of thought and patience.

I should say I AGREE with most of what you've said about media etc (an option to have ass man do it, or just more options in replies to make it interesting). Just want to ask:

1) What penalty shootout bug? I've never seen it but will look out for it.

2) If you don't like the corner expoit why set it up? I get around 15-20 goals from corners a season which isn't unreasonable, and that's without challenging the GK.

I find this game hugely entertaining and playable. The fact you HAVE to think about each game instead of setting up one tactic and winning everything is what makes FM08 so superior to FM07 and previous versions. The little bugs and quirks are merely gnats nibbling at a very succulent rump.

Strangely enough, i came on the boards this morning to start a new thread on why i dont find the game fun anymore?

I do tend to agree with the OP on some points, but for me, there is just ONE major factor when it comes to the game having become completely devoid of fun, so here goes...

...Simple really, i just NEVER get anything out of 50-50 games or games in which i might have been ever so slightly outplayed. This has meant that it has become completely pointless watching any 2D rendition of a game that i am not completely dominating, because i already know the outcome, wheres the fun in that?

On top of that, i still draw and lose games in which i have outshot my opponent as much as 20-1, losing or dropping points to some bizarre goal or other, whilst the opposing GK of often questionable ability miraculously saves every point blank effort my star striker in dazzling form can muster, often giving said GK his first and only 9 rating of his season to date and maybe even his first clean sheet to go with it?

I'll come clean and say that i do still find the game particularly easy, probably too easy in fact? as i always tend to overperform over the course of each season, but this thread is about the lack of FUN and my point is, how can you grasp any measure of fun out of a game in which the only way you ever win games(as often as that might be) is under the exact same circumstances, game after game after.....YAWN

I agree with your points about the media, particularly commenting on old players facing the club; and those about points of controversy in a match, e.g. a dubious penalty. I guess it's when you have been playing for some time and the same questions and responses keep popping up every ten minutes. Also, team talks; although I tend to look after those myself, as you say the ass man generally can be a bit clueless and just keep suggesting "for the fans" and if you go with him, the team more often than not get upset and feel you don't give them enough credit.

I still really enjoy the game, more so, however when playing in network games online than alone these days.

...Simple really, i just NEVER get anything out of 50-50 games or games in which i might have been ever so slightly outplayed. This has meant that it has become completely pointless watching any 2D rendition of a game that i am not completely dominating, because i already know the outcome, wheres the fun in that?

Well not everyone has that problem - I certainly don't - so it must be tactical.

i still draw and lose games in which i have outshot my opponent as much as 20-1

Hundreds of threads on this. Basically if you are outshooting but not scoring your chances are not of sufficient quality - despite how they appear. You need to make minor tweaks to your tempo or passing style and 9 times out of 10 you'll win 1-0 or 2-0. At least *I* do.

In general relation to this thread, SI will never please everyone. I guess they'll lose some customers and gain others.

The game has become alot more realistic, and I think that is not necessarily a good thing. A bit more of the "game" side could be used to make the game a bit more relaxing and easy to play. This game is as close to real life football management as there is though, and sometimes I do agree you want to just do your bits in the game and play it easier.

Originally posted by backpackant:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...Simple really, i just NEVER get anything out of 50-50 games or games in which i might have been ever so slightly outplayed. This has meant that it has become completely pointless watching any 2D rendition of a game that i am not completely dominating, because i already know the outcome, wheres the fun in that?

Well not everyone has that problem - I certainly don't - so it must be tactical.

i still draw and lose games in which i have outshot my opponent as much as 20-1

Hundreds of threads on this. Basically if you are outshooting but not scoring your chances are not of sufficient quality - despite how they appear. You need to make minor tweaks to your tempo or passing style and 9 times out of 10 you'll win 1-0 or 2-0. At least *I* do.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhhh as expected, the old "its your tactics" chestnut!

Not being funny mate, but i have won the EPL within just a few seasons with Derby County and the like, so this is not a tactical issue of any kind!

Its more like i've cracked the game and so the AI has to keep coming up with even the most unscrupulous and ridiculous scenarios, just so that i dont just go out and win every game by a cricket score as the stats would suggest?

And as for Tempo being the reason Strikers miss easy chances and lowering the quality of the effort, well thats just the funniest and stupidest thing i've ever heard?

Especially in a fast tempo'd league like the EPL where Strikers often only have a split second to make a decision or take a shot, most efforts are rushed, they have to be, how many times do you see any Striker in the EPL having 5 or 10 seconds to think about what he's going to do before he does it?

IRL it does'nt matter whether you play at a very slow or very quick tempo, the created effort still has to be decided on within a split second!

Who comes up with this crap about Tempo and Strikers missing?

How did get this idea that one season should be 8 hours of playing time?

My seasons are at least 2 days of playing time and I like that.

First of all, I hope everyone will understand that every paying user may have different expectations from game and they have right to raise their concerns if they are not satisfied. Just because you are happy does not neccessarily make the game perfect. In the end SI will never be able make everyone happy in the same time but at least they can try to understand different views.

I do agree in most parts with AMCGovern. Obviously some people are happy with more micro-management even if it becomes very repetative and its outcome is exteremely minor but on the other hand there as many if not more people who dont even want to spend time here to write but still likes a solid and rapid gameplay. If many say they want to complete a season in less than 10 hours, it should not be ignored. Maybe as suggested advanced asisstant manager options could provide this.

My personal preference;

- Match day tactics are fun

- Buying/selling/loaning players are fun. Although selling players has become very painful in recent versions.

- Light financial management is fine. Wage budget and transfer budget is reasonable but even after sticking with these if my my club still loses lots of money due to extra expenses which I have no clue about, it is not fun anymore.

- Investment on traning facilities and deciding which player should focus on which traning(= which stats) is fine. Having individiaul traning levels for each player and completely rubbish way of increasing/decreasing stats are not fun.

- Match day talks, media interaction, etc... is a good idea in theory but current implementation if far away from being fun. I would leave to leave them all to Asisstant because I dont enjoy doing it but somehow each time I rely on him my players start to complain.

- Feeder club was one of the best addition made in recent years. Please improve it further more; I want to more word on team selection, I want to have an option to force feeder club to field my player or I cancel offer. On the other positive impact if financial feeder clubs are very unclear.

- There are lots of in-game bugs and I dont expect to receive a %100 working match engine ever. However I would appreciate a bit better Beta testing to nail some more obvious problems

Originally posted by backpackant:

I find this game hugely entertaining and playable. The fact you HAVE to think about each game instead of setting up one tactic and winning everything is what makes FM08 so superior to FM07 and previous versions. The little bugs and quirks are merely gnats nibbling at a very succulent rump.

actually you can set up one tactic and win everything and without the use of OI or in game twekaing. ive done it on numerous occasions. but just to note you obvioulsy have to have or be a very good team

Originally posted by AMcGovern10:

Football Manager is a GAME.

I disagree with this point. I think FM has always been a simulation and has never pretended to be otherwise.

I think it'll stay that way to, from what I've heard about FM Live, that'll fill the void of a Football Management game.

I am pretty certain this is the last year I buy the game. I just dont see what else it can offer me, apart from a few more pointless features, that will mainly never be used on a large scale.

Well again, just wanna say I didn't take it so seriously so please just relax. I just wanna have fun from the game like everyone else here. Only that the way that we feel fun from the game is some kind of different. I think the match engine itself is most important so I pay more attention to the performance of players on the 2d screen - whether they act some kinda like irl. So when match engine has flaws I would feel disappointed and lose fun. Maybe many others would be happy to take lower league teams to EPL within 2,3 years. So that's 'an entertaining game' attitude and that's different. For that you can other football management game to get fun as well.

Originally posted by DarthInsinuate:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AMcGovern10:

Football Manager is a GAME.

I disagree with this point. I think FM has always been a simulation and has never pretended to be otherwise.

I think it'll stay that way to, from what I've heard about FM Live, that'll fill the void of a Football Management game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not that I disagree that FM is quite a serious game, but it still is a GAME. A simulation game, to be sure, but a game none the less.

And I agree that it's a bit less fun than the old 01/02 and 03/04 were, but it's still fun enough. I don't encounter most of these bugs people talk about. My corners are rarely scored from (I suggest it may be that the keepers in Serie A are a fair bit better than those in BSN ;p ), I never saw any issue regarding penalties, and I never get 20-1 shots, it's always a lot more equal for me.

And I don't get how people manage to go through a season in a few days' time... it takes weeks, if not months, for me. In fact, I rarely make it past more than 3 seasons before a new FM is out.

I fully support the suggestion to have the ability to let the assistant handle other stuff... if I can let him take control of renewing contracts and team talks, why not training? That would be very helpful, with a good assistant.

And I'm still rooting for a "quick result" option. Unlike some, I don't particularly like watching the matches, I much prefer setting up the team.

i agree with the media problem. 5 years on i'm still getting media about guthrie coming back to play against liverpool.

the training thing i'm not sure about though. you say you liked cm01/02 because the players actually improve.

they improve in 08 as well though. although i can't remember any of my players improving any of their stamina stats.

the reason why you may notice player improvements in cm01/02 more could be becauuse the improvements were too fast.

hell some people may have considered that a bug.

football manager is a game. it's also a simulation.

i enjoy it as such. i dont enjoy extremely anal flight sims with manuals 5 inches thick so i dont play them. but then alot of people do.

in fact there are lots of games i dont enjoy. the majority of the "RPG" genre for one. dont particularly enjoy the "RTS" games either.

but i accept that because they are made for people who DO enjoy them.

FM08 is fun. it is a football sim and is made for/by people who like football sims

Ahhhh as expected, the old "its your tactics" chestnut!

Not being funny mate, but i have won the EPL within just a few seasons with Derby County and the like, so this is not a tactical issue of any kind!

Wait, you're saying you've won stuff with Derby and you HAVEN'T used tactics to do so? Of course you have. And you got it right. Whereas people who struggle with Man U and the like clearly haven't.

The AI often "cracks" your tactics as well, hence why you have to tweak them every few games and also according to your opposition.

And as for Tempo being the reason Strikers miss easy chances and lowering the quality of the effort, well thats just the funniest and stupidest thing i've ever heard?

Really? It works. I've proved it time and again. If your opponants are countering your fast tempo game and you can't score, if you slow the tempo down 9 times out of 10 you score.

Whether this is realistic or not, I'm not debating. Just what works on the game.

Is FM08 not fun any more because its so hard?? I have great fun even though i get my backside kicked constantly,

Anyway whats this corner bug i tried it out and it still doesnt make any difference!!!

To OP.

I think in some ways you are missing the point. Other games in this genre focus on the 'pick up and play' type fun, FM has always focused on the depth of simulation type fun.

All comes down to personal play style and what you consider fun. I actualy disagree with you on almost every point. I want more depth and things to do, not less.

They do get really repetative, no argument there but I would rather they increased the options x10 instead of putting in an option to let the ass man do everything. Though of course if they could do both I guess we'd both like it ;p

For me turning FM into the 'pick up and play' game your suggesting would make it the biggest yawn out there. I play FIFA Manager also when I in the mood for something lighter, but to try to turn FM into fifaman (but without all the glitz and glamor EA does well) would be a disaster.

That's my IMO anyway.

Myros

I agree with the major point of the OP, that having the option to let the AM do tasks that you would prefer automated would make sense - everybody can then turn on/off the areas they want to play.

As I think SI have said that each area of the game are separate modules, logic would say that this should be relatively simple to implement, (although programmming may well be very different from logic)

For instance, when you have a touchline ban, or in preseason the AM can take over the in-match tactics - surely it can't be too difficult to have an option for the AM to take control every time and to just quick sim a match? You can already toggle on/off AM teamtalks, friendly arranging, etc - why not training, media, etc?

I'll add my two pence...

I've played Football Manager (and CM before it became FM) since CM93/94 and I've played every single version. I absolutely love the game, and can spend periods of weeks/months hopelessly addicted to the game.

FM2008 is the best version so far, IMO. There's a few problems I have with it, some irritating, some not so irritating:

1.) The media. The idea of media interaction is fantastic, but it's far too repetitive. As others have said it gets boring commenting on a player you're going to face who you sold several years ago, especially after commenting on the same player several times before. The media interaction needs an overhaul, and things like having a rant against your opponent should have more of an impact upon the players. Plus I'd like to see more player mind games prior to big games, like you get in Champions League games in real life. It'd be nice to have, for example, the ability to ask one of your players to slag off the opposition for being boring.

2.) Team talks. Good idea in principle, but I'm no fan of them. I'm not a master tactician and as such I feel the team talks are too much of a lottery. For example, if I'm 4-0 up at half time I want the ability to say something similar to "go out there and get more!" rather than declare myself pleased, thrilled, or whatever. There should be more options, but not too many as it could get confusing.

3.) The assistant manager. The assistant needs revamping, I want to leave certain stuff in his hands rather than to do it all myself, isn't that the idea of an assistant after all? I want to delegate stuff to him! Most of all I want to be able to have the assistant give proper team talks, because it's far too common that if I go on holiday (if I've won the league early, for example, and I want to speed the game up a bit) I want him to be able to give more than 'No comment' or whatever it is to the players. I've found they quickly get angry with the assistant for not giving team talks.

4.) More stats please! I'm a statistics junkie, I can't get enough of them. While the game is statistics-based I'd still like to see more in-depth stats.

5.) More board interaction. I'd like to have the ability to talk to the board about stuff like adjusting ticket prices, ask them directly how I'm doing and not just have a screen that says whether they're pleased with my current form or not. I'd also like to be able to discuss sponsorship with them, as well as player behaviour. This stuff might be a bit pointless, but it adds to the immersion in the game.

6.) More interaction with players. I'd like to be able to ask a player about where they'd like to play, not where I want to play them. If they're concerned with their form I want them to talk to me about it, not just the other way around.

I feel that in the last couple of versions of the game I've felt somewhat detached from the game, it doesn't feel like I'm involved.

It's still an absolutely epic game, and for me it's pretty fast (MacBook with 2GB RAM) so I've got no speed issues. I just want more stats and more interaction really.

All that said, though, I think it's as fun as you're willing to make it. You can choose to be detached from the game if you wish, or you can choose to get heavily involved with everything constantly tinkering with tactics, training, budgets, scouting, etc.

I do agree that it isnt as gd as fm 05 and 06 which where good games but u overlooked the bugs mainly as u always thought it would be sorted out next year lol. It's taken me like 700 hours but finally I am playing a career in fm 08 and i am finding it quite fun. Not just cause I am doing well lol. I am Stranraer and having to build a team and have had the highs of back to back promotions and lows of relegation followed by promotion again. To add to it the board are so bad lol and as unhelpful as possible but then again thats the challenge and i am enjoying it. All i hope for 09 is that it is the same without all the bugs and problems. I dont want any extras till they can sort out what they have already got.

Originally posted by Ivegot99problemsand a decent striker is:

Anyway whats this corner bug i tried it out and it still doesnt make any difference!!!

It doesnt work for everyone. My CB generally gets 10-15 goals a season from it, while others get 40! God know why.

8hours a season!?!?!?!?! My cuurent game is in christmas of the 1st season and is 17hours old!!! On average my games are 24hours long! This ones longer as I developed me a new tactic for Utd which took me an hour or so to get right.

Originally posted by Young Freddie:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...Simple really, i just NEVER get anything out of 50-50 games or games in which i might have been ever so slightly outplayed. This has meant that it has become completely pointless watching any 2D rendition of a game that i am not completely dominating, because i already know the outcome, wheres the fun in that?

Well not everyone has that problem - I certainly don't - so it must be tactical.

i still draw and lose games in which i have outshot my opponent as much as 20-1

Hundreds of threads on this. Basically if you are outshooting but not scoring your chances are not of sufficient quality - despite how they appear. You need to make minor tweaks to your tempo or passing style and 9 times out of 10 you'll win 1-0 or 2-0. At least *I* do.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhhh as expected, the old "its your tactics" chestnut!

Not being funny mate, but i have won the EPL within just a few seasons with Derby County and the like, so this is not a tactical issue of any kind!

Its more like i've cracked the game and so the AI has to keep coming up with even the most unscrupulous and ridiculous scenarios, just so that i dont just go out and win every game by a cricket score as the stats would suggest?

And as for Tempo being the reason Strikers miss easy chances and lowering the quality of the effort, well thats just the funniest and stupidest thing i've ever heard?

Especially in a fast tempo'd league like the EPL where Strikers often only have a split second to make a decision or take a shot, most efforts are rushed, they have to be, how many times do you see any Striker in the EPL having 5 or 10 seconds to think about what he's going to do before he does it?

IRL it does'nt matter whether you play at a very slow or very quick tempo, the created effort still has to be decided on within a split second!

Who comes up with this crap about Tempo and Strikers missing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AGREE!!!!

Ive been saying this since FM07 as the tactical side of FM is an absolute joke.

Its not realistic at all- if FM08 hadnt been such a pathetic release (the corner bug is unforgivable especially as it is much worse than SI claimed) then the claims about how realistic FM is would be funny. But its not anymore as SI roll out new versions that dont even fix problem errors such as the awful transfer market.

This genre so needs a real rival to FM as SI took their fanbase for a ride this year with not only a release that was once again lacking in the new features department but the inital boxed release was a disgrace.- especially as it took 3 months to fix.

I doubt they will even learn from this- as they know they have a cash cow and no competition.

Originally posted by backpackant:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Ahhhh as expected, the old "its your tactics" chestnut!

Not being funny mate, but i have won the EPL within just a few seasons with Derby County and the like, so this is not a tactical issue of any kind!

Wait, you're saying you've won stuff with Derby and you HAVEN'T used tactics to do so? Of course you have. And you got it right. Whereas people who struggle with Man U and the like clearly haven't.

The AI often "cracks" your tactics as well, hence why you have to tweak them every few games and also according to your opposition.

And as for Tempo being the reason Strikers miss easy chances and lowering the quality of the effort, well thats just the funniest and stupidest thing i've ever heard?

Really? It works. I've proved it time and again. If your opponants are countering your fast tempo game and you can't score, if you slow the tempo down 9 times out of 10 you score.

Whether this is realistic or not, I'm not debating. Just what works on the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True it does work- but it makes a mockery of FM being perceived as being so "realistic".

Its not our tactics that are the problem- its SIs that are all over the shop.

Originally posted by Stomalomalus:

8hours a season!?!?!?!?! My cuurent game is in christmas of the 1st season and is 17hours old!!! On average my games are 24hours long! This ones longer as I developed me a new tactic for Utd which took me an hour or so to get right.

I've no problem with the game. It's the best FM ever no matter what people say. But it does take a long time to play out a season. And you need to get through seasons at a fair pace to keep your career drive going. Not sure how you make it quicker though without taking a lot out like the PSP version.

Glad to see this thread has taken off, I had an idea it would as all my friends who play the game seem to think along the same lines. Just a couple of points I wanted to clear up on.

Some of the main commented points have been about 8 hours a season and how people take longer and still enjoy it. My 8 hours a season idea was based on continuous play. If people want to spend time looking for players when they are involved in a game then I have no problem with that, but I just feel that the repetitive media slows the game down too much. I liked the point about how a dubious penalty media comes up after every 2 games! zzzzz. Extra time spent looking for players is down to each individual, I once spent days on a previous version taking Alloa Athletic to the Champions league without signing a player other than free transfers and youth, won Champions League with Chester City and on the latest FM 2008, I have won the league with Spurs 3 years running. The latest game is just too repetitive with the media and so I am glad people like the idea of the Assistant Manager taking up the tedious roles on the game.

I agree with the point about CM01/02 players improving too easily, I just raised that because it is the only recent version that players seem to improve at all! I just can't remember the last time I had a player from my youth system become world class, despite State of the art everything, best coaches, no injuries etc, still nothing.

I disagree with the Management Simulation. One point I wanted to make clear was that I like a lot of the new features and hae no problem spending a little extra time with wage budgets, feeder clubs, tutoring players and the such like, I really like those additions to the game. Even team talks would be great if they worked. I like the whole make it similar to real life as possible idea. But if any of it takes away from a playable fun and entertaining game then whats the point. I am a Football Manager. I am an Englishman Coaching in America and I assure you that when I am on the training ground working through set pieces I feel about as far away from a computer screen as you can get.

Training - make your own set pieces, now that would be a fun implement into the game. Man, I might even bear the 2d match engine for that one.

I don't use the corner bug to my advantage, its not realistic and that is my point. What I as a customer am asking SI to do is to continue making the more and more realistic games that they do, but to keep the fun element in. Thats what they should be paying their testers to do, or game developers.

Also there are alot of people who want the game to be management based only and thats fine, I agree that I don't want to play Football Chairman, or Football U18 manager!!, but you see one element I like in the new game is the Feeder Club system, yet a Football Manager would have absolutely no control over this issue in real life!!! so my point here is that this is an element which bends the rules but should be allowed in, and could be expanded to designing your new kit, new stadium, youth complex etc. All these would bring the fun into the game again and be much more time well spent rather than media - controversial penalty, guthrie returns to lay former club, media look forward to upcoming game etc.

Finally someone asked about the 'Penalty Bug' - simply put in any penalty shoot out since I think cm03/04 on any game if there is a pause in the commentary before the next penalty, they will miss. If the commentary moves straight on to the run up they will score.

Look forward to hearing more coments.

Cheers

Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Young Freddie:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...Simple really, i just NEVER get anything out of 50-50 games or games in which i might have been ever so slightly outplayed. This has meant that it has become completely pointless watching any 2D rendition of a game that i am not completely dominating, because i already know the outcome, wheres the fun in that?

Well not everyone has that problem - I certainly don't - so it must be tactical.

i still draw and lose games in which i have outshot my opponent as much as 20-1

Hundreds of threads on this. Basically if you are outshooting but not scoring your chances are not of sufficient quality - despite how they appear. You need to make minor tweaks to your tempo or passing style and 9 times out of 10 you'll win 1-0 or 2-0. At least *I* do.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhhh as expected, the old "its your tactics" chestnut!

Not being funny mate, but i have won the EPL within just a few seasons with Derby County and the like, so this is not a tactical issue of any kind!

Its more like i've cracked the game and so the AI has to keep coming up with even the most unscrupulous and ridiculous scenarios, just so that i dont just go out and win every game by a cricket score as the stats would suggest?

And as for Tempo being the reason Strikers miss easy chances and lowering the quality of the effort, well thats just the funniest and stupidest thing i've ever heard?

Especially in a fast tempo'd league like the EPL where Strikers often only have a split second to make a decision or take a shot, most efforts are rushed, they have to be, how many times do you see any Striker in the EPL having 5 or 10 seconds to think about what he's going to do before he does it?

IRL it does'nt matter whether you play at a very slow or very quick tempo, the created effort still has to be decided on within a split second!

Who comes up with this crap about Tempo and Strikers missing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AGREE!!!!

Ive been saying this since FM07 as the tactical side of FM is an absolute joke.

Its not realistic at all- if FM08 hadnt been such a pathetic release (the corner bug is unforgivable especially as it is much worse than SI claimed) then the claims about how realistic FM is would be funny. But its not anymore as SI roll out new versions that dont even fix problem errors such as the awful transfer market.

This genre so needs a real rival to FM as SI took their fanbase for a ride this year with not only a release that was once again lacking in the new features department but the inital boxed release was a disgrace.- especially as it took 3 months to fix.

I doubt they will even learn from this- as they know they have a cash cow and no competition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, they can drool out the same old crap year after year, but astonishingly it is STILL the best game in its genre.

If it does carry on in the same downward spiral, it'll be a pre-schoolers game before very long.

indeed, 08 could have been very good, some nice new features, I'm especially glad to be able to see an assessment of my own players, but some could do with a little refinement, the matchday bugs don't bother me as I only ever do 'commentary only', even the glut of disallowed goals is only occasional, so I haven't been so critical. however there are still fundamental problems, for me the fact that there will always be inconsistencies in form no matter how good your side is (and I do a meritocracy system so its not players getting tired as its rare for someone to be consistent enough to have very long runs), which means while challenging near the top of leagues isn't hard, actually getting titles/promotion is near impossible. and taking teams first to promotion then beyond (almost always europe, occasionally a title challenge) is what I like to do most, and thats near impossible, so I'm doing what I thought I'd never do, I'm reinstalling 07, which is by far and away. credit to SI for trying new stuff with 08, some of which I wish 07 had (I'll have to get used to be able to assess every player except my own!), which saves it from coming below 06 (which I actually have many fond memories of but was basically 05 with team talks) in my estimation, but its a case of what might have been, which is a shame. I await 09 eagerly. FM games seem to have a similar curse as star trek films (except its the odds that are better) so that fills me with optimism. lets face it they can't get it right all the time so deserve another chance.

Really? It works. I've proved it time and again. If your opponants are countering your fast tempo game and you can't score, if you slow the tempo down 9 times out of 10 you score.

It works in exactly the same way as the corner exploit. You're just taking advantage of a weakness in the ME. Its funny how this tempo hack is acceptable to people yet the same people scream "cheat" when others exploit the corner bug.

Maybe we all don't understand ME enough. Maybe irl when team cannot score for a long time, they should tuned down tempo a little which is natural and reasonable. They just shouldn't kicking ball all the way forward any more and maybe they should be more patient and find good chances to score.

Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:

Maybe we all don't understand ME enough. Maybe irl when team cannot score for a long time, they should tuned down tempo a little which is natural and reasonable. They just shouldn't kicking ball all the way forward any more and maybe they should be more patient and find good chances to score.

Its not realistic at all in ANY way. IRL a slower tempo game is EASIER (sorry for the caps cant be bothered with italics!) to defend against as it allows the defending team time to regain shape and get numbers behind the ball.

The worst thing about it is that in FM its the way you almost HAVE to play once you become one of the best teams, its just counter intuitive in terms of the way the best teams irl play and therefore real life tactics have little to do with FM.

IMO FM is about learning the way tactics work in FM and not in real life- which is why the games much lauded "realism" is a myth.

You can summarise most thread's of this nature fairly simply along the lines of:

FM is no fun equals FM is now too hard/complex/in-depth etc

and/or

FM is no fun equals FM is now too time consuming/complex/in-depth etc

Its fair to say that SI have always strived to deliver the most in-depth, quality simulation of football management on the market, year on year. To complain that year on year it has become a more and more in-depth simulation of football management is to say that Man Utd should have taken it easy in the new millenium after dominating the 90s and now tried to bring the lies of Ronaldo to the club. Not going to happen.

For the few that actually get frustrated/disappointed purely with bugs/badly implemented features then fair enough, these can spoil things for some people and obviously it would be better if they didn't happen.

At the end of the day, I'm sure SI will simply have the attitude that they'll continue to try and make the game better and better and more in-depth and complicated, and if that doesn't please everyone, there's always Fifa Manager etc. And I have to say I agree with them. The one adendum to that now is that perhaps FM Live will stop that section of fans going to Fifa Manager, that is, until they get beat every week by those FM fans who like to be in-depth.

Further to this if your the best team and fail to break down a poor team then you can guarantee that they will have a single chance and sneak a win.

Again yeah it happens but in FM regardless of gulfs in player ability if you fail to get tactics "just right" then you will have problems every match, and conversely if you get the tactics right you can get unbelievable success with very average players.

SI need to hit the correct balance between ability, morale and tactical choices- as currently the most important real life factor is the players yet in FM they arguably fall into 3rd place.

Its just wrong, wrong, wrong.

Originally posted by Law_Man:

You can summarise most thread's of this nature fairly simply along the lines of:

FM is no fun equals FM is now too hard/complex/in-depth etc

and/or

FM is no fun equals FM is now too time consuming/complex/in-depth etc

Its fair to say that SI have always strived to deliver the most in-depth, quality simulation of football management on the market, year on year. To complain that year on year it has become a more and more in-depth simulation of football management is to say that Man Utd should have taken it easy in the new millenium after dominating the 90s and now tried to bring the lies of Ronaldo to the club. Not going to happen.

For the few that actually get frustrated/disappointed purely with bugs/badly implemented features then fair enough, these can spoil things for some people and obviously it would be better if they didn't happen.

At the end of the day, I'm sure SI will simply have the attitude that they'll continue to try and make the game better and better and more in-depth and complicated, and if that doesn't please everyone, there's always Fifa Manager etc. And I have to say I agree with them. The one adendum to that now is that perhaps FM Live will stop that section of fans going to Fifa Manager, that is, until they get beat every week by those FM fans who like to be in-depth.

The problem is that the "challenge and complexity" are for all the wrong reasons.

The challenge in FM is down to a tactical side that has little to do with real life tactics (the tempo issue is a perfect case in point here), add to that god awful tactical interface that has been IGNORED whilst SI "improve" the AI and you see why the game is hard for the wrong reasons.

Fairly speaking, according to what SI has been putting their biggest effort into and by using a cool head, we, who play the game in seires, should really appreciate and at the same time realized how the game has been improving through these year. When this FM08 came out, it was introduced that, about the development of its match engine, Ray Houton, the real life football manager/coach put much realism to the game especially the match engine, right?! So why there aren't many who have realized this. I mean, I've been talking about the ME repeatedly as it is the key part of the game and matches itself. I said the match engine greatly improves and much more like-real-life in FM08. Did you feel the difference in 8.0 match engine. It is what I'm using now. Yes, I only use 8.0 and never apply the patches. Why? Is the game/the match engine really so bugged? Or the problem is in the view and way how we users think of the ME.

As far as I can see, I think we are too impatient maybe. After so many years, everytime when a new version of FM comes out, it looks like we're always already expecting to find bugs and waiting immediately for the patch *.0.1/*.0.2/*.0.3 to be made for us. Comparatively, I've been playing in 8.0 for the most of my FM time. I think it's the realest one. I'm using ManU also. Win matches and also concede goals. The so-called "closing down" bug is also not a big problem because i think its true in realife that when defending not everytime the defender will rush towards the opponent to get the ball. Anyway, what I'm trying to stress is that the original ME of 08 is so good in realism. Players pass the ball around more smoothly and the movement is especailly great you can see goals after nice movement and teamwork. But since there are so many users claiming about bugs and you know in such a short time after getting the game, I think the power of claiming bugs is so overwhelming that the patches are coming out. I'm not saying there are no bugs. But after 8.0.1 and 8.0.2, there's still bugs and some are still claiming the game is not fun anymore. So for me, maybe there's so obviously a bug in 8.0 as many users think, I still stick in playing with 8.0. It may has bugs, but for match engine, it's the best, and I can have fun playing it. Sorry for my poor english hope you get what I mean.

You can summarise most thread's of this nature fairly simply along the lines of:

FM is no fun equals FM is now too hard/complex/in-depth etc

and/or

FM is no fun equals FM is now too time consuming/complex/in-depth etc

I kind of see where your coming from here and I something that I don't want to be mistaken with is that I am not asking for the game to be made easier. I like the fact that new features are added each time and that the game is made more realistic. I have more fun building clubs up with feeder clubs and wage structures because this does reflect real life teams better.

However the problem for SI is that if they continue the trend of making the game more realistic, but more frustrating then people will begin to turn to Fifa Manager and whatever other games there are and as a business they can't afford to do that.

Like I said right at the start of the thread, what I am trying to do is not to have a go at SI, but to be as contructive as I can in giving ideas how they can please both types of customer, those who like the time consuming in depth game and those you like the fun playable game and in my opinion and with the ideas above and continuing ideas they can do that simply by expanding what an assistant manager or automated response system can do to take out a lot of the repetive frustrating parts of the game, e.g media repetitive comments, team talks that don't work and then tune up the bugs.

At no point have I said make the game easier, just faster and more playable. Those who are willing to put in time to the game should get better results, but that shouldnt mean that the majority of people who buy and play the game can't enjoy it, as the trend is going.

Think of it as a friend of mine said. Think of an old car racing computer game. Those who chose manual gears could get a better top speed and ultimately better results but had more work to do. Those with automatic could still win though. Just as in assistant and head coach, those willing to do all the parts of the game should get better results, but those who hire a great assistant manager to let him do the work should get good results too.

and a playable game.

I'm personally sick of reading all the 'its your tactics' answers that people give on these forums.simply put,if a team is creating plenty of chances and giving away very few their tactics must be fairly spot on.when the players dont take these chances and concede from a large proportion of those few given away then thats when I think that maybe people should accept that the game is somewhat at fault for this

Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:

Maybe we all don't understand ME enough. Maybe irl when team cannot score for a long time, they should tuned down tempo a little which is natural and reasonable. They just shouldn't kicking ball all the way forward any more and maybe they should be more patient and find good chances to score.

Its not realistic at all in ANY way. IRL a slower tempo game is EASIER (sorry for the caps cant be bothered with italics!) to defend against as it allows the defending team time to regain shape and get numbers behind the ball.

The worst thing about it is that in FM its the way you almost HAVE to play once you become one of the best teams, its just counter intuitive in terms of the way the best teams irl play and therefore real life tactics have little to do with FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's debatable whether slower temps are eaiser to defend against. Generally I'd agree with you, but look at Arsenal, they just pass it around the defenders...

Also, the main reason teams use slow tempos IRL is because they know that eventually the defending team will make a mistake. They can then capitalise on the mistake.

Are you applying that all the best teams play with a fast tempo? I'd have to disagree there; United and Barca do, but that's all IMO.

It's debatable whether slower temps are eaiser to defend against. Generally I'd agree with you, but look at Arsenal, they just pass it around the defenders...

Yes, that's true. I myself havn't been a football fan for a long years though, but from what I can see, the FM game now has progressed towards realism greatly. And SI people must be much more knowledgable and professional about football than me. I think football itself can be entertaining, everyone no matter how crap you're you can just participate and run and kick ball around. But if you are really to manage a team and set up training and match tactics, I believe you must have a much deeper look into the game. Let me explain:

Just now I did another test to prove my thoughts using the default 8.0 version. My intention is to try to play physical violent ugly football in FM2008. I took charge of Blackburn. Everything is set with default. Training and tactics. Arrange a friendly match against own reserve team. I noticed that players with high aggression and bravery will go up to compete for the ball bravely while other's like wingers always never close down even if I set cd to often. Players with low marking and tackling also won't go for the ball easily. Of course, it is commonly know that closing down can be or must be a bug, but I just wanna point out it is also for us to try to understand more about football logic as well. For instance, I'm still learning and thinking too. Ok, back to the point. The match aginst reserve team won by 3-1. And now the next game against Trabzonspor which is not so weak as reserve team. Currently I just paused the game to come up here to write. Because the match maybe proved something I thought. In order to try to let my players run up to compete for the ball like a crazy dog, I used the same ugly hard tackling tactics as in last match. But till 50 minute the score was still 0-0. And one of their central defender is hurt while Steven Reid is hurt badly. So I can see the match is quite physical and violent. The substitute for Reid is Dunn. He fight for the ball quite well, very hard working. No problem as to closing down. Then at this moment I realized that players make decision like everyone of us. When it's time to defend there're two ways to defend. 1. you can just let the opponent has the ball and you just position yourself at good defending point. 2. you go up for the ball to kick it away or to get possession of the ball. So there's another situation that we might do our best to compete for the ball like hell. It is when you're trying to score one and you're running out of time. So now the match, it's around 60 minutes and there's no goal. So I tuned up team mentality to attacking and time-wasting to nil. Then the next thing I saw is Savage got a direct red card to be sent off because he was trying to get the ball like crazy. Haha!

So the conclusion is that the game may has bugs. But we're also responsible for putting more thoughts to what we see and get from the 2d screen. Don't be confused and annoyed by the slider system easily. cool down and think about the logic behind the sliders clearly. They are really logical and connected. Anyway, just hope everyone find his way to have fun. Please feel free to critize or correct me.

Originally posted by George Graham:

The problem is that the "challenge and complexity" are for all the wrong reasons.

The challenge in FM is down to a tactical side that has little to do with real life tactics (the tempo issue is a perfect case in point here), add to that god awful tactical interface that has been IGNORED whilst SI "improve" the AI and you see why the game is hard for the wrong reasons.

I could not agree more!

The game being hard is good but it has to be for the right reasons.

It should be hard when you're a small club because you have no money, your best players always want to leave and thre is constant speculation about big teams coming to poach them which is unsettling. It should NOT be hard because you hve to spend hours refining the minutia of tactics so that sliding one bar 3 notches to the right suddenly turns a 5 game losing streak into a 10 game winning one.

The old games were more fun, especially 01/02, exactly because of this. Even if you were a fairly big club like Newcastle, the even bigger ones would come and try and take your best players and if you constantly rejected, the less loyal ones got ****ed and played like **** until you left them leave. This is how it is in real life so if you want to make a simulation, make it like this. People will say that it means you can never build a smaller club into one that dominates Europe - Well you can after many, many years when the reputation of that club goes up and players are more likely to stay.

That is why 01/02 was so good - If you were losing you could find out why and the difficulty of the game was based much more around the players and your signing than tactics. Was 01/02 perfect? No it was not but for me it was more fun because I spent more time around the player aspect of the game than the tactical engine of the game. If the engine was true-to-life it would prolly be better because I wouldn't be spending time figuring out what works best in the game, I'd be spending time figuring out what would work best in real life. Until the engine is at that realism, I think the importance of tactics needs to be reduced. The tempo example is fine case in point...