Football Manager 2009: Where I have felt let down.

This post is to describe where Football Manager 2009 has really let me down and the reasons why I am really struggling to get into a game. Before anyone suggests a visit to the challenges forum, I have tried many save games and many different scenarios and all of them have led to me just giving up on it as I struggle to get a feel for the team.

I would have posted this earlier but felt I would get a good period of time playing Football Manager before I would make a post like this.

You may notice that I compare certain features with Football Manager 2007 and that is because, in my opinion, that has been the best and most enjoyable game so far.

My main issues are:

The look and feel:

Every year, the game has got more and more complex and more data has been recorded. Football Manager has always been a 'spreadsheet' type game but over the years the screens have got more and more cluttered and this year has made the game look unorganised and scrappy. The best way I can describe Football Manager 2009's look is like being 'locked in a shed' and the information displayed is often over-bearing. In the future, I would like a cleaner interface and less moments of useless data.

Training:

Or should I say the lack of it? The training system in Football Manager has always been ridiculously vague. The sliders just don't tell me anything and I always leave it alone as it doesn't have as much as an impact than it should. I feel, why some might say it is 'gimmicky', that you should be given a table with each day of the week and a 'morning and afternoon' slot. In these slots, you should be able to pick a focus that would normally be relevant for that position. It would be so that I could put my strikers focus on one-on-ones as my strikers normally miss these. It would give a better chance for me to react to what is happening on the pitch and improve aspects of my play where I am failing.

Set-pieces:

Set-pieces are a beneficial part of the game for many clubs throughout the world and Football Manager 2009 does not give an easy and efficiant way to build a set-piece routine. This is another graphical suggestion and I feel it is a realistic way to get the most out of your team. I feel that a view of your half should be layed out for both 'attacking and defending' set-pieces where you can put your players and then select their runs. This is the most realistic way to set up good set piece routines. Of course you could choose to man mark and that would make the 'defending set-pieces' disabled.

Tactics and their relation the Match Engine:

Every time I set up my tactic for the first time, I have no idea how my team will play. It often takes 7-8 matches of tweaking before I get the team playing the way I want and that is not realistic at all. It has not always been like this, in Football Manager 2007 I found it very easy and quick to build a tactic and know what is was going to play like with minimal fuss. I also feel that SI need to release a clearer guide to their tactics as I shouldn't have to read a 50 page guide to gain an understanding of Football Manager.

The lack of incentive to play a career game:

To put this simply, seasons never feel linked. I often feel it is like starting a new-game when the new season starts and the previous season is quickly forgotten. Also, I feel that there is no benefits for a manager being at a team for many seasons. Even a statue made for you and big press moments would go a small way to helping me feel a part of the club and it's history

Player Development:

There is one big issue with Football Manger's player development system is that players can play at top division clubs when, in the real world, they would either be retired or playing at a lower league club. I have seen Gerrard, Torres, Walcott, Bullard, Ronaldo and Scott Parker still playing at big clubs at 36+ and this leads to the regens not getting a real look in until they are in their mid 20's unless they are of exceptional talent.

Conclusion:

I have made this thread because of my long-term frustration with Football Manager 2009 and some really blatant issues that really are effecting my enjoyment. These points are based on my experience with all the patches but predominantely on patches 9.2.0 and 9.3.0. I hope I haven't bored you or kept you for two long.

Second Round of Points:

Player interaction:

Football clubs are often described as 'families' by some well known managers. Why is that, in Football Manager, you don't really interact with players and it is like there is a huge forcefield between them. I should be able to speak to my players about different issues in private without having to put it through the press. If one of my players is under-performing, I would like to tell him that to his face and see if he changes rather than embarrass him and put it through the press.

Staff interaction:

Background staff are a key part in modern football and often do the 'dirty work' for their manager. Some coaches take training and it would be nice to get detailed training reports from your coach as the current ones are much too vague and give no indication on the player. It would also be nice for your assistant to tell you more things from his opinion like 'I don't think x should be playing because...' as staff, at the moment, might aswell be the otherside of the world to the manager.

Team Talks:

You probably guessed that this was coming; I find team talks much too vague and there isn't enough variation in what you can say. I would often like to encourage my players but remind them not to be complacent, but that isn't possible using the current system and the players are often not entering the game in the mind-set that you want.

Good post:thup:

Totally agrree with everything you have just said.

Good constructive post and well thought out.

I agree with you on nearly every single point.

Good constructive post and well thought out.

I agree with you on nearly every single point.

Which points did you not agree with?

the main one i agree with is the training

surely it would be easier to do it this way anyways

Great ideas, just waiting for some SI/Sega bloke to stroll in and claim that none of these problems exist...

Maybe, but most of them are clear but some are also opinion. Hopefully they read through and take some ideas on board for FM10 or FM11.

very impressive post, both mature and concise - good effort. (and i throw my support behind every point made)

I agree with alot with what you said but especially with the training, i feel its not at the level it should be. As you said peter i would like to work on certain areas in training for example if Im conceding alot of goals from set pieces i would like to work on that aspect, if we are struggling to keep the ball again work on that etc. More individual player training e.g. improve penalties only. Also try different formations in training and see how the team respond and this could link into what you said about the tactics and their relation the match engine with more feedback from you assman.

Seriously peter, I am not sure they will but there is no reason NOT to put ANY of these in FM10 and if they do then it will prove that they really do listen to ideas generated from these forums.

Seriously peter, I am not sure they will but there is no reason NOT to put ANY of these in FM10 and if they do then it will prove that they really do listen to ideas generated from these forums.

Not sure any of them will get implemented to be honest but they could maybe take a few points on board.

The lack of incentive to play a career game:

TBF there are small features like the possibility of having a stadium named after you and I think it's possible to become a club great etc.? Also once you've been there a while you have the option of choosing your feeder club etc.

Good thread

Seriously peter, I am not sure they will but there is no reason NOT to put ANY of these in FM10 and if they do then it will prove that they really do listen to ideas generated from these forums.

FM10 is already being made afaik, so it is likely that all new features will have already been decided.

The lack of incentive to play a career game:

TBF there are small features like the possibility of having a stadium named after you and I think it's possible to become a club great etc.? Also once you've been there a while you have the option of choosing your feeder club etc.

It doesn't feel like enough though. I agree with peter. Each season does feel as if it is a new game, just with a couple of new players. I agree that there should be more linking, but I'm not sure of a good way to do this. Maybe the news articles could reference years past more often? The news articles could do something like reference a famous victory from the year past over rivals before you play them again in the new season. (Sorry for the poor wording and structure there.. There's a point somewhere!)

Not really though, development of players and your team in general is a huge factor in the game for me. I love watching my youth develop year after year.

Not really though, development of players and your team in general is a huge factor in the game for me. I love watching my youth develop year after year.

As do I, but besides that, each new season feels like it has no connection to the previous one for me. Again, it feels like I'm starting a brand new game, just with a couple of different players. It gets frustrating after a while. I have trouble playing long-term career games. I generally do 2 or 3 seasons, then I go back to a new game.

(Apologies if you were replying to someone else, but I think you were talking to me)

This thread has real potential to be a goodie.

I have a number of points I'd like to make. Firstly, Spurz123 I think SI/Sega have proved on numerous occasions that they listen to the views on this board. I honestly think that both SI and Sega are a shining example of listening to their fans, and many other gaming companies would do well to take note (as a Sim City fan I feel strongly about this after all our views were ignored before the terrible Sim City Societies was released).

Secondly, I don't think Peter is suggesting new features particularly (the training module aside), most of them are observations on the current system.

Thirdly, turning to Peter's original categories:

The look and feel: I actually like the way FM09 looks, I think it's very clean and well presented and the UI is logical. However, I don't know if anyone remembers Stan Petrov's brilliant suggestions on this forum about a year ago (cba to locate the threads) where he mocked up some more interesting ways of presenting FM data, but that was basically ffffb, and something I really hope SI look at. But overall, I quite like the interface.

Training: I do agree that training feels a bit vague. They did used to have a similar system to the one you suggested, and I don't know why they deviated from it, but I would be in favour of a move towards your suggested improvements for training.

Set-pieces: I agree with this, but I've heard (it may not be true) that the reason there isn't a set piece editor is that humans would have a massive advantage over the AI. This feature is included in a well-known rival game this year so it'll be interesting to see how that pans out, but I'd love this to be a big part of the game as it is IRL.

Tactics: I have no strong opinion either way on this point.

The lack of incentive to play a career game: While I don't quite agree, I do agree that the game could try to do more things to make you feel that each season was a continuation of the last. But that's a bit vague, because I don't have any suggestions of how to do it atm either.

Overall, good post and some interesting comments coming out here.

A very good, constructive post!

The look and feel: I actually like the way FM09 looks, I think it's very clean and well presented and the UI is logical. However, I don't know if anyone remembers Stan Petrov's brilliant suggestions on this forum about a year ago (cba to locate the threads) where he mocked up some more interesting ways of presenting FM data, but that was basically ffffb, and something I really hope SI look at. But overall, I quite like the interface.

I remember them. They all looked amazing, would love to see them in the game. I'll try and find the thread soon.

I remember them. They all looked amazing, would love to see them in the game. I'll try and find the thread soon.

I would like to see this thread:)

The tactical dissonace in FM2009 is the main problem I have with this version. Last year and the year before it very much felt that the team was doing what I was asking it to do. I was able to tweak and change when things went wrong and get things to work. This year it does feel that what you do on the sliders bears absolutely no relation to what you see on screen. I don't know why but the match engine this year feels really... well almost inflexible. It's like you absolutely have to do certain things otherwise you have no chance of any success at all. This makes it very difficult to get really in to the game.

I have no problem with the UI as it goes. The main things you want to see are quite easy to get to.

I agree as far as training is concerned. I played about with it when it was first introduced (was it CM4 or 03/04) and it had the table where you could say what the guys practice. Now it just seems like it has no bearing on what happens to your players so there is no point bothering with it. That seems quite strange especially when compared to how much a stray press conference or a bad team talk can affect your players.

It's been difficult to get into this year for me but that's probably more to do with the fact that Charlton are absolutely shank and no fun to play with but there we are.

Look and Feel

Whilst I'm not overly fussed on this either way, due to the large amount f skins you can get, I do concur with Gills man that Stanpetrovs thread last year had some ideas that looked amazing.

Training

100% agree I never bother with training really just download a regime. But hopefully what with the addition on teaching ppm's this year a similar personalised training idea could be implemented.

Set Pieces

I see what your saying but personally I find set pieces easy to implement I score lots of goals through corners or freekicks.

The lack of incentinve to play a career game

This is an excellent point. I also feel more focus should be put on managers who have long careers perhaps news stories, and the odd comment from a player saying how much of a dram it is to play under a manager like you etc.

Tactics

I can honestly not remember an incarnation of FM or CM as it was, that has brought so much attention to the tactical implementation and its translation from slider notches to real football language, as you correctly point out we should not be required to read a 50pg document. I am confident from reading other threads that this is something SI are seriously looking to address, well............I hope anyway.

Yes that's right

Here is a link to the stanpetrov thread http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=26782&highlight=stanpetrov

Thanks for all the feedback.

Gillsman: I see what you mean about set pieces. But would it not be possible for the coders to code 100 different, common routines into the game and let the AI pick the best one?

Stan's stuff looked fantastic and I agree that there isn't enough graphical stuff and the whole game is text based.

Good post agree with the training situation I would like a match engine for training where you could actually show players where you want them to cover/make runs into...free kicks/corners you should be able to select a position on the feild where you want played into etc etc

Player interaction/press conference should be better to

dont bother going to press conference they are crap...................and with interaction you should be able to say want you want to a player...not just the pre selsected stuff

(as a Sim City fan I feel strongly about this after all our views were ignored before the terrible Sim City Societies was released).

My goodness that was terrible, I'm very much with you there!

~

I cannot stand tactics on the current game. I know that SI are looking to make a sophisticated model of a tactical implementation, but it is alienating people. Despite my posts, I'm not that great at the game and I really can't get a grip on tactics. I've read the big chunky guide and I have the concepts floating about in there, but in the match scenario, I don't know how to react and I can't tell if my tactic is working and what parts other than if they're getting lots of chances.

DRM is another example of how a lot of people have become frustrated by this version. I worry that FM is losing the main market, which is a big thing considering that the games industry is so much more open nowadays - it isn't just "nerds" who play games, but casual gamers are being more and more of an influence, and I don't think SI are able to capitalise on that with the game the way it is at the moment.

I love the ideas Stan had, but surely most of them would look a bit stupid (e.g. on the tactics screen) it would just have outlines for players faces, and would look uncompleted imo. But it should be more graphical.

I loved most of it. Im sure there could be a 'disable' option for you to use until you get your facepacks.

Or maybe two different skins?

Like;

FM10

FM10 Right

FM10 Graphical

or something. ?

Yes, that would be fantastic, though unlikely.

Thanks for all the feedback.

Gillsman: I see what you mean about set pieces. But would it not be possible for the coders to code 100 different, common routines into the game and let the AI pick the best one?

I'm not a coder so it's not for me to answer that, but I would suspect it's a lot more complex than that. But I'd certainly have thought it was possible, after all the AI do a semi decent job of countering our tactics anyway, so it's possible. But there'd have to be a way to prevent obvious exploits, e.g. you shouldn't be able to load everyone onto the front post, sling a ball in there and get a goal every time.

Some great points peterevo.

I feel that this years interface is good but it does have too many buttons that one never uses.

The graphical display in the StanPetrov display is terrific and really impressive.

As for a set-piece editor, it would certainly help tune your set-pieces but as always people will complain about flaws and exploits. But, we all know the real players don't use the exploits such as the corner bug on 08

Thanks pnefc22.

I think most of Stan's mock-ups are very good and would like to see them implemented.

Which points did you not agree with?

Tactics and their relation to match engine point.

Tactics and their relation to match engine point.

Why/what do you not agree with.

Why/what do you not agree with.

Personally, I don't find I need the 7-8 games.

But I do agree that the manual should be updated.

I see, it could be because I am pretty useless at tactic building but I found FM2007 a lot easier to get my instructions across.

I see, it could be because I am pretty useless at tactic building but I found FM2007 a lot easier to get my instructions across.

With the new tactical wizard, it seems it will be a lot easier.

Yes, hopefully that will make it easier to get my team playing. I will use it in FML before FM10 so I will be able to judge from that.

Brilliant post mate, agree with all your points.

Look and Feel

The look of the game doesn't really bother me as it's never been a point of the game to look amazing although I do agree that a revamp would no doubt improve the game.

Training

I used to play LMA Manager on the PS2 for a while since my PC was getting repaired and I remember that training was set into sections like you said and there were roughly 15 different types of training that you could choose from for each moring and afternoon session which made training seem like it had more relevance to the game than it currently does with FM.

Set-Pieces

Again this an area in which I think the game is lacking, how often is the difference between teams a well-worked free-kick or corner? I have read what Gillsman has said and from a coders point of view it might be more difficult but again something SI should be looking into.

Tactics

I await the 1st person to have a go at you about not wanting to read the guide.

Lack of Incentive

Another area I agree should be reviewed. Roberto922 mentioned that it is possible to become a staff legend but how many people have actually been able to this? Even after winning multiple league titles, national cups and European trophies people are finding themselves not even being named as favourite personnel while a player can be added after having one good season. I've only heard of it happening on here from people who brought teams from the lower leagues to the very top and even then i've not seen a screenshot so i'm still skeptical. People are lucky to get one stadium built if they are playing a medium length career due to the huge cost so I doubt how often people get this. Getting to choose your own feeder club is not too bad but since most clubs that are chosen reject your proposal (in my experience anyway) this is pretty much pointless and leaves the user with not much to play for after going so far into the game.

Player Development

Another reason that leads to a lack of incentive to play a career game. Since all these players play well into their 30's it becomes all too easy to pick up the best young players and coast through the game beating everyone. Yes once you have won everything with one club you can leave and taken another club to greatness but since other clubs are playing older players and not spending well to cover for the future it makes doing this pretty much pointless.

This might have sounded as a bit of a rant but given all i've said I still enjoy playing the game which much mean there is a good game in there somewhere and with some work the next version of the game could be great.

Brilliant post mate, agree with all your points.

Look and Feel

The look of the game doesn't really bother me as it's never been a point of the game to look amazing although I do agree that a revamp would no doubt improve the game.

Training

I used to play LMA Manager on the PS2 for a while since my PC was getting repaired and I remember that training was set into sections like you said and there were roughly 15 different types of training that you could choose from for each moring and afternoon session which made training seem like it had more relevance to the game than it currently does with FM.

Set-Pieces

Again this an area in which I think the game is lacking, how often is the difference between teams a well-worked free-kick or corner? I have read what Gillsman has said and from a coders point of view it might be more difficult but again something SI should be looking into.

Tactics

I await the 1st person to have a go at you about not wanting to read the guide.

Lack of Incentive

Another area I agree should be reviewed. Roberto922 mentioned that it is possible to become a staff legend but how many people have actually been able to this? Even after winning multiple league titles, national cups and European trophies people are finding themselves not even being named as favourite personnel while a player can be added after having one good season. I've only heard of it happening on here from people who brought teams from the lower leagues to the very top and even then i've not seen a screenshot so i'm still skeptical. People are lucky to get one stadium built if they are playing a medium length career due to the huge cost so I doubt how often people get this. Getting to choose your own feeder club is not too bad but since most clubs that are chosen reject your proposal (in my experience anyway) this is pretty much pointless and leaves the user with not much to play for after going so far into the game.

Player Development

Another reason that leads to a lack of incentive to play a career game. Since all these players play well into their 30's it becomes all too easy to pick up the best young players and coast through the game beating everyone. Yes once you have won everything with one club you can leave and taken another club to greatness but since other clubs are playing older players and not spending well to cover for the future it makes doing this pretty much pointless.

This might have sounded as a bit of a rant but given all i've said I still enjoy playing the game which much mean there is a good game in there somewhere and with some work the next version of the game could be great.

Good post. I have read the TT&F but don't feel I should have to.

A rant is a non-constructive post that just critises the game without any evidence or reason, your post was not a rant

I've never read the TT&F as i'm reasonably confident that I know how to play the game but I must admit that when I 1st played 09 I did horribly and was close to reading through the guide, instead I worked by trial and error and in the end I got a feeling for the game, but I agree that people shouldn't need to read it unless they don't know anything about the game.

Jumping in...

I agree whole-heartedly that there just isn't that draw to keep me coming back season in and out...some simple additions that could help: 1. A "chasing history" screen at the start of each season that displays the various club/league records (for teams, players and coaches) that you can aim for, examples being games played, career goals, cups won, etc. 2. better recognition of a manager's contribution to the team (think hall of fame, but team-specific) 3. the ability to compare an individual to a previous point. Namely, a snapshot can be taken of a player at the start of every season with your team, allowing you to look at how much/little said player has actually progressed over the course of their career with you. 4. better interaction between managers. Namely, over the course of your career you should develop hated rivals amongst the coaching ranks, ones that can engage in public wars of words or whatnot, actively trying to impede your progress.

As for the veteran issue...it was only last year that we were complaining that players over 30 were all but worthless. This year tried to rectify that, though some people feel as though it may have gone too far. My solution: have the natural fitness rating indicate the probability of a player maintaining their physical stats over their career. A rating of 20 would indicate a player that is dedicated to staying in shape and maximizing their potential, thus he should have a better chance of preventing the huge dropoffs in pace, stamina, etc. On the flip side, a player with a natural fitness rating of 1 would indicate that he doesn't concern himself with staying/getting in peak physical condition. So even though this player may set the world on fire at age 25, by age 30 you should start to see noticeable decreases in the player's physical stats. One option would be to have a flexible natural fitness rating, wherein you could ask a player to exercise during the offseason or adopt a mentor's approach to raise fitness, while a disgruntled player may lose motivation to hit the gym. Along with natural fitness impacting physical stats, determination could influence the mental aspect. High determination could indicate a "student of the game" that looks to gain whatever advantage he can; conversely, a low determination rating can indicate laziness and a failure to gain/apply knowledge as the player matures.

I would also add teamtalks to that list peter, they also seem limited and i hate having 2-0 leads at half time as i never no what to say (pleased or dont let you performance drop), sometimes I want to say encourage but i cant, i think a good idea would be to have all the options available to choose from and also the ability to combine them eg 2-0 leade would like to say pleased and encourage the team to get more goals.

Great ideas, just waiting for some SI/Sega bloke to stroll in and claim that none of these problems exist...

This kind of post really, really annoys me. SI listen to their user base more than pretty much any other software company I'm aware of, although I'm sure others will jump in with examples of where I'm wrong. They also openly and honestly admit when they have got something wrong. The only times critical threads get closed is when they are nothing but abusive rants or pointless repetition of exactly the same argument a poster has made countless times before, in which he has received masses of good advice, ignored it, played the game as previously and then reposted the same list of issues. Even when you do decide to close one of these threads before its interminable ramble into sniping argument, (perhaps the 7th iteration of the same) you get reported for censoring debate.

This is a well thought through thread by a younger forum member that perhaps many, supposedly more mature memebrs, might well learn from.

Immediate thoughts in response are:

The look and feel:

I agree and hope that FM can take the better ideas from FML in its future presentation.

Training:

Only increases attributes, not how well the match goes. Should practice matches and match planning be part of the training module? I tend to think they should.

Set-pieces:

A set-piece editor is much too likely to break the ME to be included. All you need is one routine that hasn't been predicted and the engine can't handle and all the balance goes. However, slightly richer variation of routine, especially for free kicks, would be a welcome addition.

Tactics and their relation the Match Engine:

Obviously, I didn't have to read a 50-page guide to understand tactics. However, Paul and Ov have publicly stated that a new, more intuitive system is high-priority for FM2010.

The lack of incentive to play a career game:

I only ever play a career game, but I do agree that the 'reward' element is somewhat lacking. Having won Wycombe's first ever major trophy, I was told by the board that it was always expected that we could win and we needed to maintain focus. The supporters also didn't want to get to excited. Personally, I think they'd be hanging from the lamposts.

Player Development:

If a player has excellent natural fitness and is at a club with a superb training facility (i.e. Milan), then he should be able to play into his late 30s at a high level. However, if not he should deteriorate more quickly or more slowly depending on the combination of the two. Perhaps the balance is not quite right, but I think it is more to do with clubs not recognising young talent rather than older players going on too long.

Jumping in...

I agree whole-heartedly that there just isn't that draw to keep me coming back season in and out...some simple additions that could help: 1. A "chasing history" screen at the start of each season that displays the various club/league records (for teams, players and coaches) that you can aim for, examples being games played, career goals, cups won, etc. 2. better recognition of a manager's contribution to the team (think hall of fame, but team-specific) 3. the ability to compare an individual to a previous point. Namely, a snapshot can be taken of a player at the start of every season with your team, allowing you to look at how much/little said player has actually progressed over the course of their career with you. 4. better interaction between managers. Namely, over the course of your career you should develop hated rivals amongst the coaching ranks, ones that can engage in public wars of words or whatnot, actively trying to impede your progress.

This, epecially point 1, is a brilliant idea.

My main gripe with the match engine is that I really struggle to translate what I am seeing on the pitch to which sliders I should be adjusting.

There should definitely be more intuitive feedback on the areas needs improvement during the match. I think the very fact that you need to read a third party 50 page document just to have a basic idea of how the game works is leaving too many people in the dark.

Right now I find the assistant manager's inputs pretty useless. What about a half time / post match analysis feature where you're given pointers one the things that you did / did not to well either in text or graphical form? eg.

"Our defence is under too much pressure because our tempo/passing is too fast/direct meaning that we're conceding possession too often"

"Our fullbacks are being too aggressive and leaving too much space for opposition winger to exploit"

"We're just not dealing with their AMC's run through the midfield -possible suggestion for man-marking"

"Their no.4 is looking increasingly nervous - suggestion set wingers to always take him on"

I think under the bonnet FM has got a great match engine running. It's just a pity that you need a degree in Astrophysics to know which sliders to adjust and how much to adjust it by. I am not calling for an over simplification of things, just more transparency on how things are running in the background.