Hidden Attributes and Ability

Good evening,

Has anybody noticed that attributes such as Versatility, Dirtiness, Injury Proneness, and also ability with both feet affects players overall ability? All these attributes are counted within the players overall ability.

If a player has 190 ability, but has a lot of versatility, has both feet strong, and injuries himself frequently, this same player will be as good as a player with 170 ability, or even less.

I don't know if this is just me, or maybe because I use the real time editor a lot.

Another disturbing finding: GK ability also affects overall ability of non-GK players. Heavily. Each irrelevant atribute to a Striker or a Midfielder, such as "Handling", "Eccentricity" or "Communication" drains his Technical and Mental atributes.

I believe this is a major mistake in the conception of the players attributes, that has been happening since previous Football Manager versions. The manufacturer would do a great thing by re-thinking the players ability composition.

I'll be happy to hear opinions.

I'm sorry for this, but I believe I may have incurred in imprecision when I made the statement referring to GK ability affecting non-GK's. Maybe not all of the GK attributes weight on the CA, maybe just Reflexes. This still needs more testing to verify if it is in fact a problem, but I'd like to ask you for now to disconsider this statement.

I appologize for this.

Alexander

Interesting findings especially about the GK stats

I'm suprised about the GK attributes but otherwise I would have expected the hidden ones to have some kind of affect on CA as they have a huge difference on a players performance. I would rather have a good player who is professional and consistantly performs well than have someone who is brilliant but only puts in a performance once in a while especially if he spends half the time on the physio's table.

I heard about the both-footedness thing, I have to admit, I agree with you there. For FM2010, it could do with a review.

Hello everybody. Thank you for your posts.

As hidden attributes, I mean specifically Dirtiness, Versatility, Injury Proneness, Consistency and Important Matches. All of them have weighting on the player's ability. And of course the well known both-footedness problem.

Other attributes such as Professionalism and Sportsmanship are treated as Personality, and as far as I know - and tested by working with the real time editor - it doesn't have any weighting on the player's ability.

Other attributes such as Professionalism and Sportsmanship are treated as Personality, and as far as I know - and tested by working with the real time editor - it doesn't have any weighting on the player's ability.

professionalism and sportsmanship are mental attributes which form the personality so i would assume they are affected by a players ability?

Please correct me if this is wrong but i would assume mental attributes are given some of the ability points the same as technicial attributes.

professionalism and sportsmanship are mental attributes which form the personality so i would assume they are affected by a players ability?

Please correct me if this is wrong but i would assume mental attributes are given some of the ability points the same as technicial attributes.

Professionalism, Sportsmanship and Loyalty, for example, are part of the group of attributes called Personality. From what I tested, they don't have weight on the CA.

Mental Attributes are the ones such as Flair, Aggression, Determination and Concentration, and they DO have weight on the player's CA, probably being given the same weight as Technical attributes. I don't object this, because these sort of Mental attributes are crucial to the players performance.

Interesting findings especially about the GK stats

I'm sorry for this, but I believe I may have incurred in imprecision when I made the statement referring to GK ability affecting non-GK's. Maybe not all of the GK attributes weight on the CA, maybe just Reflexes. This still needs more testing to verify if it is in fact a problem, but I'd like to ask you for now to disconsider this statement.

I appologize for this.

I'm suprised about the GK attributes but otherwise I would have expected the hidden ones to have some kind of affect on CA as they have a huge difference on a players performance. I would rather have a good player who is professional and consistantly performs well than have someone who is brilliant but only puts in a performance once in a while especially if he spends half the time on the physio's table.

I'm sorry for this, but I believe I may have incurred in imprecision when I made the statement referring to GK ability affecting non-GK's. Maybe not all of the GK attributes weight on the CA, maybe just Reflexes. This still needs more testing to verify if it is in fact a problem, but I'd like to ask you for now to disconsider this statement.

I appologize for this.

Alex - I'm fascinated by how the Weight on attributes works. however, I'm not one for downloading external tools, and none are made for Mac regardless. Cold you potentially take the time out to explain in detail how it all works, so I can get a better understanding of the game? Cheers.

Another disturbing finding: GK ability also affects overall ability of non-GK players. Heavily. Each irrelevant atribute to a Striker or a Midfielder, such as "Handling", "Eccentricity" or "Communication" drains his Technical and Mental atributes.

This is interesting as a disparity in goalkeeping ability came up when comparing Arsenal's data with that of other top-four clubs. We were assured that it did NOT take up CA points.

EDIT: Ah - sorry, I didn't see your retraction.

Alex - I'm fascinated by how the Weight on attributes works. however, I'm not one for downloading external tools, and none are made for Mac regardless. Cold you potentially take the time out to explain in detail how it all works, so I can get a better understanding of the game? Cheers.

Hello my friend.

From what I've understand and tested by working with real time editors since FM 2007, the Technical, Mental and Physical Attributes are essencial to the players quality and have almost the same weighting. I've noticed however that some Physical Attributes, like Strenght, Acceleration and Pace, have more weighting than individual Technical and Mental attributes. Look at Theo Walcott or any other explosive player, for example.

The Hidden Attributes are Dirtiness, Versatility, Consistency and Important Matches. However, Injury Proneness is also to be considered, but in some editors it appears as Physical Attributes. They DO play a roll on the CA. Unfortunately. Imagine if Injury Proneness should drain a players ability from Technical attributes? Non-sense.

The last category is Personality. It consists of Adaptability, Ambition, Loyalty, Pressure, Professionalism, Sportsmanship, Temperament and Controversy. From what I tested, they don't have weight on the CA.

Both-Footedness. This is well known and affects heavily the players CA. Cristiano Ronaldo is a good example. When I work with the editor and weaken his left foot, he improves significantly.

My major concern, as my post indicates, is how some attributes play a negative roll on the player's overall ability, and how they should be weighted separately.

I hope I have been of assistance.

Alexander

I meant more along the lines of the following :

A player has 200 P.A and 200 C.A, he is a Striker. 1 footed. If he has 20 for finishing, how much of the C.A Ability points would that take.? And then Tackling, for example. He has 20 in this attribute too. How many C.A Points would that take up? How does the weighting actually affect a players growth, and can we "humans" actually spot this in-game without the need of Tools?

I meant more along the lines of the following :

A player has 200 P.A and 200 C.A, he is a Striker. 1 footed. If he has 20 for finishing, how much of the C.A Ability points would that take.? And then Tackling, for example. He has 20 in this attribute too. How many C.A Points would that take up? How does the weighting actually affect a players growth, and can we "humans" actually spot this in-game without the need of Tools?

I see what you mean. In fact, I must confess that I don't know exactly in what extent each individual attribute contributes to overall CA. I've tried to figure this out many times, but since I don't know for sure, I wouldn't want to give you incorrect information.

However, what I said about some Physical attributes is a fact. They count more than single Technical or Mental attributes.

Sorry for not being able to help you more.

Alexander

No problem Alex. Thanks for your help

NepentheZ,

Here's a brief overview of what I've picked up from reading some pretty in depth analysis of CA/PA and player development. Most of it was from FM08 but the core still applies (while some of the finer details may be slightly different).

Most of the discussion centers around the effect of a players so-called "Weaker Foot Attribute" sometimes abbreviated WFA. Basically, just like any other attribute such as Shooting, Passing, Determination, etc. every player has a value between 1 and 100 for their proficiency with their weaker foot and this WFA is displayed to us depending on where in the spectrum the players' value falls. Again, just like any other attributewe see it in certain increments (of 20, I believe), ranging from Very Weak to Very Strong. Every point going towards WFA counts towards a players CA; for example, two players with identical attributes but a significant difference in WFA (Very Weak compared to Very Strong) would have significantly different CAs. Based on anecdotal evidence, the two-footed player would actually have about 20 more CA points.

The complaints come in when this WFA causes difficulties with evaluating players' abilities at a glance. For example, you might notice that bsed on first glance Elano would actually look like a better player than C.Ronaldo because he has higher technical, mental, and physical attributes; however if you were to pull up the editor and look at these players CA/PA, you'd notice that C.Ronaldo is in fact the better player -- it's just that his "two-footedness" takes up a number of CA points which are distributed to other attributes for Elano.

Similarly, proficiency at different positions also take up small amounts of CA. For example, if you had two players with CA=PA=200, the the DR/WBR/AMR would have fewer of his CA points distributed towards the displayed attributes because those points are taken by his postional proficiencies.

There is, however, an upside to a player being competent at multiple positions. For each position, there are certain "dead" attributes which don't really weigh much towards the player's total CA -- ie, Tackling for a ST. The more positions a player is competent at, the more "dead" attributes a player has. This can lead to a conundrum where a DC/ST can actually have higher attribute totals than a ST alone because he gets the bonus of the ST attributes counting less towards CA because of his DC proficiency.

In general, the amount of points an attribute is worth towards CA goes in this order:

(1) WFA

(2) Physical Attributes

(3) Technical/Mental

Basically, this means if you loaded a CA=PA=50 player up maxing his WFA only, Physical Attributes only, or Technical/Mental Attributes only you would "see" the lowest numbers on the player's attribute screen starting with the WFA, then Physical, then Technical/Mental in that order.

Thanks CYO. I'm really intrigued as to how all of this works, because ideally, knowing how the attributes are distributed with regards to CA and PA - you could devise an exceptional training regime for any specific player, to really enhance his attributes in the area you wanted. I'm eager to learn more, especially to do with attributes and training, and any info anyone has on it, would be fb

Really, when it comes down to training there's no single "exceptional" training regime; it's all about understanding your priorities and how to implement them. There's a trade-off between versatility (positional, foot proficiency, etc.), athleticism (pace, agility, etc.), tactical (positioning, awareness, etc.), and technical (passing, shooting, etc.). Each has slightly different CA "costs", but they correspond roughly to their importance in matches (and the ME).

For example, I personally value all-around athleticism and then tactical awareness. I push my youngsters to develop physically and tactically with a splash of technical skills and only start to emphasize their technical development as they hit their prime.

But if you've got questions, NepentheZ, fire away and I'll do my best to answer them. I'm by no means an expert but it happens to be a part of the game I'm extremely interested in.