why make it so hard!!!

Ive been playing champ man/football man since the original for windows 3.1 and ive always really enjoyed the game and thought the difficulty level was finely balanced. However the last incarnation fm07 started to lean towards the more difficult side. I recently got fm08 and the enjoyment is starting to turn to serious frustration and dislike. Ive tried tweaking everything, training, coaches tactics, brought in players from 2 leagues above and still i proceed to go on runs of 7, 8 sometimes 10 games without a win. Even against the most poor opposition at home i end up scraping draws. Is it just me or is this version the most difficult/frustrating yet?? Im losing my addiction for the game. Also this is only a minor issue but why does practically every single goal become enveloped in controversy??? every goal is disputed for offside and probably 1 in 4 are disallowed. Why is this?

Ive been playing champ man/football man since the original for windows 3.1 and ive always really enjoyed the game and thought the difficulty level was finely balanced. However the last incarnation fm07 started to lean towards the more difficult side. I recently got fm08 and the enjoyment is starting to turn to serious frustration and dislike. Ive tried tweaking everything, training, coaches tactics, brought in players from 2 leagues above and still i proceed to go on runs of 7, 8 sometimes 10 games without a win. Even against the most poor opposition at home i end up scraping draws. Is it just me or is this version the most difficult/frustrating yet?? Im losing my addiction for the game. Also this is only a minor issue but why does practically every single goal become enveloped in controversy??? every goal is disputed for offside and probably 1 in 4 are disallowed. Why is this?

I'm in the same position mate. MK Dons with some of my team good enough for the Championship...I've come close to the playoffs a few times, managed to get promoted once then got relegated last day of the season. Then players get too old to even sell so they rot in the reserves eating up wages...its a struggle haha...

But still, the buzz is there when you look at the table and you have a chance of accomplishing something.

yeh ive tried a few games. I played with Darlo and had premier league reserves on loan valued at 1mill etc but still was relegated. It wasnt like I wasnt scoring either my two strikers hit in excess of 20 in the season. Tried another game with Hartlepool, to no avail. Started a new game with Doncaster which im playing at the min and my star signing Tommy Wright scores for fun. I had a great spell and ive made it to quarter finals of johnstones paint trophy but suddenly im on a ten game run without a win. Seriously demoralsing!!

since the patch i've founding winning a lot harder for sure

I dunno, I have always struggled on previous games but this just seems to be really easy compared to the last few for me ??

I win everything every single season now (in 2020) compared to FM07 where it took me about 8 seasons to win the PL with Leeds and then I only won it every so often after that. On this I got consecutive promotions with Leeds then won the PL in the second season in the division.

pretty impressive do you alter training coaching tactics etc if so what??

personaly i've found the game no harder than previous games.

the goals are disallowed for offside or fouls. which means if your player is offside then their offside regardless of if the play gets stopped before the ball goes in or after

i have my own training regime, my own tactics which took me about 10 minutes to initially set up and then tweak over half a season with FM06 and haven't changed them since.

but then its a basic 442 so its not like its a strange formation thats exploiting a match engine problem that doesn['t work after the problem gets fixed

Usually you will see two camps in these threads:

1. Its too hard, not much fun, not very rewarding

2. Its too easy, you're all 'tards, personally I want to see it harder.

The dividing line is, #2's (no pun intended) either have a tactic made by or have come up with a means of reading and slaying the match engine.

So why doesn't a greater majority of people fall into the #2 camp?

Simple, they tend to try and play the game with 'real world' tactics and formations, which are inconsistent or just don't work.

Everyone else reads up on what's hot and whats flawed in the match engine i.e. corners, one on one bugs, closing down, marking etc.

What needs to change? The match engine needs to become much more realistic (not neccessarily more advanced) and tactics (and individuals) need to be more influential on the results than formations themselves at all but the highest level.

Those clamouring for 'difficulty' settings simply need to start in the lower leagues, where motivation and individual instructions make the difference and working up to the more sensetive and contrary premier league and Europe, learning the quirks of the match engine as they go.

What happens in reality? Everyone wants to win everything with Man Utd. And fails. Then slates the game ..

I know this is controversial for the purists, but I reckon an 'unsackable' option would be really a nice addition. I'm only interested in managing Sunderland and I don't want to cheat so inevitably I can never have a real long term game to my liking. It'd be also quite interesting to see if I could be successful if I get relegated enough but I'm usually sacked not long after getting relegated to the Championship.

You wanna visit this thread, mate...

there's no shame in being 5hit

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Simple, they tend to try and play the game with 'real world' tactics and formations, which are inconsistent or just don't work.

Everyone else reads up on what's hot and whats flawed in the match engine i.e. corners, one on one bugs, closing down, marking etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't agree. You have split the camps in a too binary manner.

There are four camps:

1: The Arcade Player: wants an easy to play game in which tactics don't matter much and he can just go about winning the league through buying high quality players. Downloads 'super-tactics'.

2: The Deluded Fan: someone who believes he 'knows' football and because his 'logical' theories about how it is played fail in FM, it is FM that is flawed rather than his perception on football. Won't change his beliefs however well constructed the argument is against them.

3: The Engine Buster: The player who reads up on every engine beating system and designs tactics to exploit the flaws, i.e. the corner routine, unrealistic farrows the engine can't handle etc. Designs his own 'super-tactics'.

4: The Realistic Simulist: someone who wants to play a management simulation that reflects reality and follows a footballing and managerial logic in doing so but also recognises that a simulation cannot ever perfectly mirror real life. Doesn't take advantage of engine weaknesses such as the corner routine and actively avoids employing such settings. Learns to win by working out how the engine mirrors real life football (and improves his real life footballing knowledge by doing so) and designing tactics (or tactical sets) within those parameters.

I agree wwfan, but I'm wondering which one I am...

A mixture of 1 and 4 I suppose.

I used to be 3 but after a "moment" realised the problem was me being, well, rubbish...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:

I agree wwfan, but I'm wondering which one I am...

A mixture of 1 and 4 I suppose.

I used to be FOUR! I MEANT FOUR!!! but after a "moment" realised the problem was me being, well, rubbish...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

corrected.

Ah, to win with Liverpool.....

If you can forget one and embrace four to its fullest extent, that Premiership dream will become reality.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Ah, to win with Liverpool.....

If you can forget one and embrace four to its fullest extent, that Premiership dream will become reality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never been good with cryptic crosswords, and I feel this message has a hidden meaning.

STOP MESSING AROUND WWFAN!!

If you know how to help me acheive my dream then please! don't hold out on me.

You know exactly what I want more than anything in the world:

JUST ONE SUCCESSFUL STINT WITH LIVERPOOL.

I'm fully aware that if you were to take on Liverpool, you'd have no problem.

Please help me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Simple, they tend to try and play the game with 'real world' tactics and formations, which are inconsistent or just don't work.

Everyone else reads up on what's hot and whats flawed in the match engine i.e. corners, one on one bugs, closing down, marking etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't agree. You have split the camps in a too binary manner.

There are four camps:

1: The Arcade Player: wants an easy to play game in which tactics don't matter much and he can just go about winning the league through buying high quality players. Downloads 'super-tactics'.

2: The Deluded Fan: someone who believes he 'knows' football and because his 'logical' theories about how it is played fail in FM, it is FM that is flawed rather than his perception on football. Won't change his beliefs however well constructed the argument is against them.

3: The Engine Buster: The player who reads up on every engine beating system and designs tactics to exploit the flaws, i.e. the corner routine, unrealistic farrows the engine can't handle etc. Designs his own 'super-tactics'.

4: The Realistic Simulist: someone who wants to play a management simulation that reflects reality and follows a footballing and managerial logic in doing so but also recognises that a simulation cannot ever perfectly mirror real life. Doesn't take advantage of engine weaknesses such as the corner routine and actively avoids employing such settings. Learns to win by working out how the engine mirrors real life football (and improves his real life footballing knowledge by doing so) and designing tactics (or tactical sets) within those parameters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since the combined IQ of all 'camps' approximates the number of calories in a spoonful of monkey jizz, I say it's asking for trouble to be so enthusiastic in pursuit of detail..

Binary is good. It relates. Two balls, two concepts. Two breasts, two hands. Two pies, a balanced diet etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Ah, to win with Liverpool.....

If you can forget one and embrace four to its fullest extent, that Premiership dream will become reality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never been good with cryptic crosswords, and I feel this message has a hidden meaning.

STOP MESSING AROUND WWFAN!!

If you know how to help me acheive my dream then please! don't hold out on me.

You know exactly what I want more than anything in the world:

JUST ONE SUCCESSFUL STINT WITH LIVERPOOL.

I'm fully aware that if you were to take on Liverpool, you'd have no problem.

Please help me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make sure you hold out for a good price, wwfan. This one wants it badly, you can just sense it. Make him pay!

indeed I do...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:

I agree wwfan, but I'm wondering which one I am...

A mixture of 1 and 4 I suppose.

I used to be FOUR! I MEANT FOUR!!! but after a "moment" realised the problem was me being, well, rubbish...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

corrected. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I swear I could hear you screaming that bold part.

Seeing what I do every bloody year described brings back painful memories. That would be 4, sadly. My friends actually suggested I give it up because I was a "fool" not to exploit that kind of stuff. Also managed to ruin my network game because nobody had fun beating me with the diablo or any other such exploits. Maybe it's time to give in to temptation...

plays as liverpool has a good tactic and wins most comps most of the time, uses 2DC 2WB 1DMC

3MC and 2SC always break the bank to but Alves sell finnan, kuyt, pennant, voronin

put alonso, gero and kewell or benyoun in midfield have the tactic somewere i coluld emial you it

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Simple, they tend to try and play the game with 'real world' tactics and formations, which are inconsistent or just don't work.

Everyone else reads up on what's hot and whats flawed in the match engine i.e. corners, one on one bugs, closing down, marking etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't agree. You have split the camps in a too binary manner.

There are four camps:

1: The Arcade Player: wants an easy to play game in which tactics don't matter much and he can just go about winning the league through buying high quality players. Downloads 'super-tactics'.

2: The Deluded Fan: someone who believes he 'knows' football and because his 'logical' theories about how it is played fail in FM, it is FM that is flawed rather than his perception on football. Won't change his beliefs however well constructed the argument is against them.

3: The Engine Buster: The player who reads up on every engine beating system and designs tactics to exploit the flaws, i.e. the corner routine, unrealistic farrows the engine can't handle etc. Designs his own 'super-tactics'.

4: The Realistic Simulist: someone who wants to play a management simulation that reflects reality and follows a footballing and managerial logic in doing so but also recognises that a simulation cannot ever perfectly mirror real life. Doesn't take advantage of engine weaknesses such as the corner routine and actively avoids employing such settings. Learns to win by working out how the engine mirrors real life football (and improves his real life footballing knowledge by doing so) and designing tactics (or tactical sets) within those parameters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Ah, to win with Liverpool.....

If you can forget one and embrace four to its fullest extent, that Premiership dream will become reality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been doing some thinking on this little quip, and I'm still stumped.

Forget ONE. Embrace FOUR.

One what? Four what? Four players? One player? Four at the back? One up front? The "Big Four"? The "Big One"? Four up front? ONE AT THE BACK???

One trophy? Four Trophies? One week? Or Four? Weeks? Days? A season? FOUR SEASONS?(Mmmmm cheese) Forget ONE? That must be aimed at me? Since I'm the one (the ONE???) who needs to (TWO???) For(FOUR???)get?

What is the one that I know? Maybe I AM ONE? One is hungry and all that posh-talk? Four square meals? Square = FOUR SIDES? Pitch = also FOUR SIDES? Fourplay? Oneplay? Four balls? One ball? Rule of one? Rule of four? Which one? My one? Yours? Hers? Theirs?

Baffled.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:

I've been doing some thinking on this little quip, and I'm still stumped.

Forget ONE. Embrace FOUR.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

1: The Arcade Player: wants an easy to play game in which tactics don't matter much and he can just go about winning the league through buying high quality players. Downloads 'super-tactics'.

4: The Realistic Simulist: someone who wants to play a management simulation that reflects reality and follows a footballing and managerial logic in doing so but also recognises that a simulation cannot ever perfectly mirror real life. Doesn't take advantage of engine weaknesses such as the corner routine and actively avoids employing such settings. Learns to win by working out how the engine mirrors real life football (and improves his real life footballing knowledge by doing so) and designing tactics (or tactical sets) within those parameters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

2: The Deluded Fan: someone who believes he 'knows' football and because his 'logical' theories about how it is played fail in FM, it is FM that is flawed rather than his perception on football. Won't change his beliefs however well constructed the argument is against them.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

heh. You are making it sound as if FM isnt deeply flawed and completely unrealistic.

Lets face it. If you play a normal 442 game its going to be extremely hard. You will scratch your head why your world class keeper is just standing there, why your defenders are not capable of marking anyone and why your strikers think its a good idea to shoot from 50 meters. And when you lose one game the whole morale bug/feature crap starts. And after 5 games the board decides that you are doing a poor job and you start fearing when board confidence bugs will sack you.

Im sorry, but FM is a complete mess nowadays. They should just remove features such as morale, team talks, opposition instructions, player interaction etc. All those features that have a big effect on the result but are implemented in a totally shitty way. Delete all the code and redo them properly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

heh. You are making it sound as if FM isnt deeply flawed and completely unrealistic.

Lets face it. If you play a normal 442 game its going to be extremely hard. You will scratch your head why your world class keeper is just standing there, why your defenders are not capable of marking anyone and why your strikers think its a good idea to shoot from 50 meters. And when you lose one game the whole morale bug/feature crap starts. And after 5 games the board decides that you are doing a poor job and you start fearing when board confidence bugs will sack you.

Im sorry, but FM is a complete mess nowadays. They should just remove features such as morale, team talks, opposition instructions, player interaction etc. All those features that have a big effect on the result but are implemented in a totally shitty way. Delete all the code and redo them properly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again this is just your opinion. Many of us are of the opinion that these features are a good addition and will be even better once refined. Many of us are of the opinion that it's great that the days of picking one tactic and blitzing through the game with little challenge are gone.

The point is that this is our opinion, and you have yours. Please don't try to pass your opinion off as fact unless you really know what you're talking about, otherwise you just end up looking like an idiot.

So, in your opinion the games totally flawed, in mine it's not. There can always be improvements but without a doubt the game is moving in the right direction.

im sorry but i think 442 and its derivatives are what is used in real life. In FM you will have more success if you use some weird 2-3-3-1-2 style with arrows all over the place.

Team talks also dont work like that in RL. Do you think the manager gives the team a one liner before the match and the players then decide if they wanna play or they will just stand there and sulk.

Its of course only my opinion and i think the game has been moving in the wrong direction. Not that they actually managed to move much in the past few years.

What good are buggy features such as team talks or board confidence if even the basics dont work. Come on. Transfers? Shouldnt things like this be priority? Its been almost 10 years and it still doesnt work.

total bs. i only ever use 442 in the game and enjoy reasonable success. not winning trebles every season, but a much more realistic success.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

im sorry but i think 442 and its derivatives are what is used in real life. In FM you will have more success if you use some weird 2-3-3-1-2 style with arrows all over the place.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you check the Tactics and Training Tips forum you'll see there are plenty of successful 4-4-2 or similar tactics around, which makes this argument invalid.

The problem is that YOU can't have success with 4-4-2.

I did check it and those that are really successful are far from even remotely looking like 442. I am reasonably successful with my club. I am the 8th richest club with Leigh so i know my way around FM. I am using a modified 442 with completely silly player instructions that work better than default. What im trying to say we shouldnt have to play with such tactics. Match engine should reward us if we play with real life style tactics and not punish us if we dare to try.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by soundian:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:

I've been doing some thinking on this little quip, and I'm still stumped.

Forget ONE. Embrace FOUR.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

1: The Arcade Player: wants an easy to play game in which tactics don't matter much and he can just go about winning the league through buying high quality players. Downloads 'super-tactics'.

4: The Realistic Simulist: someone who wants to play a management simulation that reflects reality and follows a footballing and managerial logic in doing so but also recognises that a simulation cannot ever perfectly mirror real life. Doesn't take advantage of engine weaknesses such as the corner routine and actively avoids employing such settings. Learns to win by working out how the engine mirrors real life football (and improves his real life footballing knowledge by doing so) and designing tactics (or tactical sets) within those parameters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I swear I completely missed that, it was right there and I thought he was "giving me a clue"...

What a wombat.

I believe the idea of this is to beat the computer. Sure, tweaking and building a squad takes time, but don't they all? This game is to be as realistic as it can be for us. It's a thrilling game. The idea is to work at it until we finally become successful, and if that takes 20 years then i think that's 30 quid or whatever well spent. FM takes over us.

According to wwfan's distinction in players of FM, I do not play at all!

I do not fit in any category...

I changed the bank balance (and reputation) of my team to be in the database, employ a straightforward, standard "4-4-2 attacking" without any changes to the corner-routine, no extra arrows.

I only buy players worth less then 15M pounds in their early 20's (max. age 26), which is closer to the original spending power of the league I'm playing in.

I really like my youngsters to progress from the U18 into my first team...

BTW I have reasonable successes, so far.

So where do I fit in then?

Doesn't matter. I have fun playing, and that is the purpose of this GAME, isn't it?

I thought I would put my thoughts in. I have been playing CM / fm since the early 90's.

I have had success with lots of teams, from big to small (Chelsea & Stevenage from 07 to give examples) I always tend to keep my tactics very simple, using a mixture of 4-4-2 / 4-4-3, but I generally dont move away from the standard tactics, and I've never really used any of these so called super tactics. I just simply change my tactics depending on whats happening in the match. (I tend to concerntrate on the buying / selling & developing players aspect of the game (which for me is the core of the game)

There is no quick fix, one tactic may work well in one season, and may crash and burn in the second.

The game will always be slightly random to a certian degree, and thats the reason why we always go back to the game.

As to whether or not it is to easy or hard, the best versions of the game (we all have our favs,) have found a balance, and had that ability to make you scream with joy at one moment, and pull your hair out the next.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Roman105:

I thought I would put my thoughts in. I have been playing CM / fm since the early 90's.

I have had success with lots of teams, from big to small (Chelsea & Stevenage from 07 to give examples) I always tend to keep my tactics very simple, using a mixture of 4-4-2 / 4-4-3 , but I generally dont move away from the standard tactics, and I've never really used any of these so called super tactics. I just simply change my tactics depending on whats happening in the match. (I tend to concerntrate on the buying / selling & developing players aspect of the game (which for me is the core of the game)

There is no quick fix, one tactic may work well in one season, and may crash and burn in the second.

The game will always be slightly random to a certian degree, and thats the reason why we always go back to the game.

As to whether or not it is to easy or hard, the best versions of the game (we all have our favs,) have found a balance, and had that ability to make you scream with joy at one moment, and pull your hair out the next. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Roman105:

I thought I would put my thoughts in. I have been playing CM / fm since the early 90's.

I have had success with lots of teams, from big to small (Chelsea & Stevenage from 07 to give examples) I always tend to keep my tactics very simple, using a mixture of 4-4-2 / 4-4-3 , but I generally dont move away from the standard tactics, and I've never really used any of these so called super tactics. I just simply change my tactics depending on whats happening in the match. (I tend to concerntrate on the buying / selling & developing players aspect of the game (which for me is the core of the game)

There is no quick fix, one tactic may work well in one season, and may crash and burn in the second.

The game will always be slightly random to a certian degree, and thats the reason why we always go back to the game.

As to whether or not it is to easy or hard, the best versions of the game (we all have our favs,) have found a balance, and had that ability to make you scream with joy at one moment, and pull your hair out the next. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Using that formation (4-4-3), I can win too!

(forgot to add my comment in the previous post)

DOH!