Drm

Been reading the posts about DRM and I was wondering.....what is it exactly people don't like about it. I don't mean in general but with regards to video games, and FM in particular.

I personally haven't had any problems, and I think that 5 mins putting codes in at install is preferable to having to have the disc everytime I want to play, so I'm probably biased, but people clearly have stronger opinions than me and I was just wondering why.

Also, why would you ever want to install the game on more than 5 computers!!??

P.S. Just to confirm, I'm not trying in anyway to be preachy or smug, I'm genuinly curious about people's opinions on the matter.

It wasn't 5 mins for me it was two hours!! It would be half ok if the code wasn't written in dotted letters and contained B's 8's 1's I's 5's and S's if you see what I mean?

TBH delvey a lot of the problems with the DRM were at launch when the servers couldn't take the amount of traffic with everybody trying to activate on launch day. Personally I understand the reasons for using DRM but it can get stupid amounts of people at once. TBF FM isn't the first game to suffer these probs with DRM as I believe spore had the same issues

for me it was something like 6 hours waiting for my game to be authenticated which caused a lot of frustration for me even though i knew about the drm before hand god knows what the people who weren't expecting it thought.

That is a good reason......thought I got on the second attempt as that is how the Mega Drive games used to do passwords and codes etc....how times have moved on!!

That was @ Sussex Hammer BTW

TBH delvey a lot of the problems with the DRM were at launch when the servers couldn't take the amount of traffic with everybody trying to activate on launch day. Personally I understand the reasons for using DRM but it can get stupid amounts of people at once. TBF FM isn't the first game to suffer these probs with DRM as I believe spore had the same issues

Half the story.

Steam has coped with bigger games than FM before on its own (we also had Uniloc). We were targetted by a DDOS attack that reduced auth server performance and made it difficult for people to authenticate. It was fixed after a few hours, but was obviously tedious for anyone locked out at that point.

Not expecting sympathy, I'd just like the facts to be straight!

Half the story.

Steam has coped with bigger games than FM before on its own (we also had Uniloc). We were targetted by a DDOS attack that reduced auth server performance and made it difficult for people to authenticate. It was fixed after a few hours, but was obviously tedious for anyone locked out at that point.

Not expecting sympathy, I'd just like the facts to be straight!

@Matt: would be interesting to hear which conclusions were drawn, what's the strategy for next release? Can be done anything beforehand to avoid repetition?

At this stage, nothing to share publicly.

Internally - we've been looking into what we'd do next time and I feel it'll be important to communicate it clearly before release so there's a good opportunity for people to understand what we're going to do.

Half the story.

Steam has coped with bigger games than FM before on its own (we also had Uniloc). We were targetted by a DDOS attack that reduced auth server performance and made it difficult for people to authenticate. It was fixed after a few hours, but was obviously tedious for anyone locked out at that point.

Not expecting sympathy, I'd just like the facts to be straight!

At this stage, nothing to share publicly.

Internally - we've been looking into what we'd do next time and I feel it'll be important to communicate it clearly before release so there's a good opportunity for people to understand what we're going to do.

Sounds like a plan and good chance of a smoother launch :-) Glad to hear!

I don't think many people object to DRM in principle, the problem comes when it's not just cheaper, but far less hassle to just download the game from some pirate site. FM09 at launch had server problems. Other DRM systems sometimes prevent games from running on certain CD/DVD drives. I've seen some which refuse to let you play the game if it detects certain software on your system (eg Daemon tools - which can indeed be used for piracy, but also have plenty of legitimate uses). Then you get the "limited number of installs" or "must register online to run single player offline games" crap.

The pirates are inevitably able to crack the games anyway after a couple of weeks, so all these things do is cause hassle to legitimate users.

Maybe is time to go back to good old times where the game would ask for a specific word on a specific page in a specific line in the game manual :-)

Maybe is time to go back to good old times where the game would ask for a specific word on a specific page in a specific line in the game manual :-)

Nah, spinny wheels are the best.

I can actually remember one game that had a spinny wheel that told us where to look for a word in the manual.....

As long as I don't spend the entirety of FM10 release weekend trying to activate the game, I'll be happy.

I can actually remember one game that had a spinny wheel that told us where to look for a word in the manual.....

Was that Wolfpack? I remember having a wheel too on some game.

I think SI should seriously look at the DRM provider their old partner, Out of the Park Baseball, uses. Not only was it unobtrusive, but it also gave you two installs, so that you can play at work and home.

Battlefront's Combat Mission: Shock Force uses a similar scheme and it also works very well.

Personally, I think DRM is counterproductive. Piracy is a real problem, but I have doubts that all of these various DRM schemes do anything to thwart the people who wish to copy the games, and only end up frustrating the legitimate (and typically less computer-saavy) buyers.

I see all of the comments directed at the Windows DRM. I'm hearing a lot of flack about Steam lately, which worked great for me back when HL2 came out. Is steam more intrusive, or less reliable now? How's the feedback on the Mac DRM?

FM gives you more than two installs, Crimguy.

FM wasn't cracked for months after its launch.

Simultaneous installs? I posted a question about the Mac Digital Download version a couple weeks ago and was told it allowed only one install. I guess I wasn't clear enough (I meant to specify the type of install).

I'm glad to hear it prevented them from cracking the game for a time. That doubtlessly gained you a few sales. But now that it's in the wild, will they have an easier time with the next release?

Hmmm - apologies, I assumed you were talking PC.

What happened on this release won't affect what happens on the next one in terms of speed of cracking.

The reason the servers crashed was because there was too much traffic going in and out to the main server, therefore there were crashes. It would be the same on a road, if there was 250 cars going down a narrow lane, there would be crashes. So partly, people tried to activate too quickly, which is fair enough, but sometimes sitting back, letting the chaos go on, then when everything is calmer, getting it activated is better, and it is part fault of the DDOS that I presume was the main server got, to slow down authentication, and in cases, go to a complete standstill. Kind of like a motorway in England.

Hmmm - apologies, I assumed you were talking PC.

What happened on this release won't affect what happens on the next one in terms of speed of cracking.

while I do understand that one should fight piracy or better prevent such to a great degree, i wonder how may games will become unplayable in the distant future (retrogaming anyone) in case the drm provider and games publisher are out of business by then.

Since I do enjoy many old classics, I fear modern DRM is more a "lease" of software for some time rather than owning the product for unconstrained use...

Hmmm - apologies, I assumed you were talking PC.

What happened on this release won't affect what happens on the next one in terms of speed of cracking.

Will Football Manager 2010 still require to be authenticated along the same sort of lines as Football Manager 2009 ( i.e. Steam, Internet, Phone) or could there be some sort of alternative, or has this yet to be discussed among the developers?

I understand nowadays that PC gaming is seemingly having to go down the road of some sort of anti-piracy measures, that I fully understand and I don't blame SI or Sega for pursuing that, but I do feel that the authentication system does need to be easier for those who either don't have the internet or don't have the internet on their seperate PC (like myself, I have an internet PC and a gaming PC) and also I feel that the limit of installs is somewhat a bad idea as well, as people have already said, and there's a thread on this now where people are having problems, if a hard drive fails and you need to reinstall, or you forget to uninstall FM when formatting a PC you lose one of your 'seats'. One other suggestion I would like to suggest is that just limit the phone authorisation to one code like the current Windows XP installation instead of four.

Initially I was against DRM and this was the reason why I didn't buy FM09, I am slowly but surely coming round to the idea that I may end up having to buy FM09 as FM08 is getting a little too easy now!, I'll just have to wait a little longer until my finances allows me to consider buying it. DRM is seemingly the way forward for PC game developers and something us gamers will seemingly have to accept whether we like it or not, I'm one of the old school, been playing since CM93, and when this DRM was announced for FM09 I was very bitterly disappointed and was one of the first to complain about it, I was even more disappointed after what I had read about Spore's DRM especially the comments on Amazon's website, but again, from what I have read, FM's DRM is different.

Anyway here's to the future.

Was that Wolfpack? I remember having a wheel too on some game.

I think SI should seriously look at the DRM provider their old partner, Out of the Park Baseball, uses. Not only was it unobtrusive, but it also gave you two installs, so that you can play at work and home.

Battlefront's Combat Mission: Shock Force uses a similar scheme and it also works very well.

Personally, I think DRM is counterproductive. Piracy is a real problem, but I have doubts that all of these various DRM schemes do anything to thwart the people who wish to copy the games, and only end up frustrating the legitimate (and typically less computer-saavy) buyers.

I see all of the comments directed at the Windows DRM. I'm hearing a lot of flack about Steam lately, which worked great for me back when HL2 came out. Is steam more intrusive, or less reliable now? How's the feedback on the Mac DRM?

Steams getting flack from this bored what it does not deserve its the Phoenix to the pc gaming community

and I will challange to people to name a better service for the consumer and the game developer then steam?!

All I can generally say to hardcopy software vs. download and all kinds of online drm managment: I don't trust downloading games. I prefer a CD/DVD in a nice case, printed manual, and no DRM for the sake of being able to play the game from first day until I die ;-)

Given, FM09 might not be worth in 20 years to dig it out and play it, the FM2029 hopefully will be faaaaaaarrrrr better....but look at CM 01/02. I bet the same people will stick to that game even in 10 years time.

The reason the servers crashed was because there was too much traffic going in and out to the main server, therefore there were crashes. It would be the same on a road, if there was 250 cars going down a narrow lane, there would be crashes. So partly, people tried to activate too quickly, which is fair enough, but sometimes sitting back, letting the chaos go on, then when everything is calmer, getting it activated is better, and it is part fault of the DDOS that I presume was the main server got, to slow down authentication, and in cases, go to a complete standstill. Kind of like a motorway in England.

Not really. Much larger audiences have authed via Steam without issue to be honest - the DDOS nailed the service provision pretty good. More like having a thousand lane motorway and 998 buses parking across it...

while I do understand that one should fight piracy or better prevent such to a great degree, i wonder how may games will become unplayable in the distant future (retrogaming anyone) in case the drm provider and games publisher are out of business by then.

Since I do enjoy many old classics, I fear modern DRM is more a "lease" of software for some time rather than owning the product for unconstrained use...

We've stated that we'll patch out the authentication at some future (and as yet undetermined point) to ensure that this doesn't happen - we know people play some versions of FM for years and years).

Will Football Manager 2010 still require to be authenticated along the same sort of lines as Football Manager 2009 ( i.e. Steam, Internet, Phone) or could there be some sort of alternative, or has this yet to be discussed among the developers?

Anyway here's to the future.

Yet to be discussed.

Steams getting flack from this bored what it does not deserve its the Phoenix to the pc gaming community

and I will challange to people to name a better service for the consumer and the game developer then steam?!

Umm - I don't think so. There are reasons why people don't like Steam - this thread doesn't need to be overrun with them - I think we've done that already...

We've stated that we'll patch out the authentication at some future (and as yet undetermined point) to ensure that this doesn't happen - we know people play some versions of FM for years and years).

ah, okay, I see. Yes, now I remember having read about it before. Fair enough, if not forgotten :-))

FM wasn't cracked for months after its launch.

Actually it was cracked, if I remember well, next day or thereabouts. Only the "holiday" function was not functioning.

Anyway, the question should be: has SI noticed a significant increase in sales, which can be attributed to the adoption of DRM? I guess this is internal information and will not be disclosed. But it is something you need to think about, when you prepare the FM2010 launch, i.e. customer hassle v. sales gain.

If I may, I leave here my position that, if the only option will be a Steam based one, I will surely not purchase FM2010. If you do need to add a DRM solution, at least include something like Uniloc, which is done one time and that's it. Steam has too much "baggage" associated with it, something myself, and others, find unacceptable.

Not really. Much larger audiences have authed via Steam without issue to be honest - the DDOS nailed the service provision pretty good. More like having a thousand lane motorway and 998 buses parking across it...

We've stated that we'll patch out the authentication at some future (and as yet undetermined point) to ensure that this doesn't happen - we know people play some versions of FM for years and years).

Yet to be discussed.

Actually it was cracked, if I remember well, next day or thereabouts. Only the "holiday" function was not functioning.

Anyway, the question should be: has SI noticed a significant increase in sales, which can be attributed to the adoption of DRM? I guess this is internal information and will not be disclosed. But it is something you need to think about, when you prepare the FM2010 launch, i.e. customer hassle v. sales gain.

If I may, I leave here my position that, if the only option will be a Steam based one, I will surely not purchase FM2010. If you do need to add a DRM solution, at least include something like Uniloc, which is done one time and that's it. Steam has too much "baggage" associated with it, something myself, and others, find unacceptable.

The question should be: has SI noticed a signifcant increase in pure profit, despite the adoption of DRM, since, I speculate, there are higher costs involved for such protection, and if DRM has led to more sales or was it the "hype" about FM and 3D and stuff. also, better first day availaibility through steam could also be a contributing factor, if sales have increased.

My personal opinion of the whole matter is that it works pretty fine. Having the option of Uniloc as well as Steam was welcomed by me.

If you think FM had it bad apparently Empire: Total War has been even worse!

My personal opinion of the whole matter is that it works pretty fine. Having the option of Uniloc as well as Steam was welcomed by me.

If you think FM had it bad apparently Empire: Total War has been even worse!

For the majority it has worked, for many others app. not.

The question is the general strategic approach towards piracy and if DRM is just an additional cost factor (which will be reflected in price) or it can really help increase profits vs. the scenario of "old" with DVD in drive.

This is the question for the software houses.

I don't think that customer friendliness has the top priority in such scenarios. Of course, we can argue, we don't need a CD in drive anymore, but for some percentage of customers it might become a No-buy decision in future.

Not being educated here, but what's the reason for Apple and record companies to lift DRM as of recently?

Will Football Manager 2010 still require to be authenticated along the same sort of lines as Football Manager 2009 ( i.e. Steam, Internet, Phone) or could there be some sort of alternative, or has this yet to be discussed among the developers?

I understand nowadays that PC gaming is seemingly having to go down the road of some sort of anti-piracy measures, that I fully understand and I don't blame SI or Sega for pursuing that, but I do feel that the authentication system does need to be easier for those who either don't have the internet or don't have the internet on their seperate PC (like myself, I have an internet PC and a gaming PC) and also I feel that the limit of installs is somewhat a bad idea as well, as people have already said, and there's a thread on this now where people are having problems, if a hard drive fails and you need to reinstall, or you forget to uninstall FM when formatting a PC you lose one of your 'seats'. One other suggestion I would like to suggest is that just limit the phone authorisation to one code like the current Windows XP installation instead of four.

Initially I was against DRM and this was the reason why I didn't buy FM09, I am slowly but surely coming round to the idea that I may end up having to buy FM09 as FM08 is getting a little too easy now!, I'll just have to wait a little longer until my finances allows me to consider buying it. DRM is seemingly the way forward for PC game developers and something us gamers will seemingly have to accept whether we like it or not, I'm one of the old school, been playing since CM93, and when this DRM was announced for FM09 I was very bitterly disappointed and was one of the first to complain about it, I was even more disappointed after what I had read about Spore's DRM especially the comments on Amazon's website, but again, from what I have read, FM's DRM is different.

Anyway here's to the future.

FM's DRM is different than Spore's - If I had Spore I would have more than likely have used up all my installs by now - Windows has been reinstalled several times (at least once without having the chance to uninstall FM09) and new hardware has been added to my computer (Graphics Card, Hard Drive, RAM) yet according to the key lookup website I've only used one activation and that was on the day of release.

The Protection on FM09 is one of the better one's I've experienced bar the initial activation problems that were out of Segas hands, not that it made things any better at the time and I was rather disapointed and critical when it was announced. (Whilst I don't like having to ask permission from a third party to play the game - chance of me losing the CD are less than the activation servers being down, not having to put the CD in from a lazy position is nice)

The Unilock system doesn't appear to be invoked apart from the initial activation and is better than the steam option as the game isn't tied to any account. (One thing I don't like about steam apart from having to be online to play is that the games are all locked to your account forever or until valve go bust or decide they don't like you).

Though it could do with some improvement:

- The method of printing the CD-Key was woeful (beaten only by EA missing off bits of the Red Alert 3 keys) luckily mine only had one I or 1 in it. Future keys could do with either not using 0,1,5, o, i, s, l etc... or do as other games have done have lower case characters with numbers in a bigger font: abcd0123i1o0...

- The Unilock error messages were vague, from what I remember they said my computer had no internet connection not that the site was down.

- The Keylookup and Deactivation address could have been better advertised - put in the manual or ingame.

- The reliabilty of the Deactivation address needs to be improved - theres been problems deactivating and looking up devices.

- Declare on the box that the game needs activating. (Not as bad as EA where your game purchases are now rentals, but one of the things that annoys people is the fact that this has been snuck into games, cannot remember if the EULA even tells you about it?)

- Make the hardware scan optional or disclose it - could do what Valve do and let people see the results, so not only would you know what systems to test/market the game for but people would know what systems are recommended.

A backup system if possible would be nice - if cannot activate run a CD check, would help out release day problems and people without internet machines.

Though having none at all like GRAW2 would be nice

(It also would have been nice to have removed the protection after the release of the final patch)

About the vague uniloc messages. You're right there. I was told I wasn't connected to the internet when it was a problem with my CD Key, I had a 1 instead of an I