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Should SI Ditch the "No More Single Tactic" Idea?


Should It Be Ditched?  

164 members have voted

  1. 1. Should It Be Ditched?

    • Yes, bad idea and should be ditched as soon as possible
    • Yes, untill it's been tested well and should be released in a patch
    • Yes, but included in a different game when it is ready
    • No, they should keep it but should improve it
    • No, and it's great as it is
    • Hasn't affected me/not noticed


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First, for those of you who don't know (or haven't experienced this somehow), since the 9.3.0 patch SI have tweaked the tactics system so that you can't really use one tactic throughout the season. Therefore this means that at home you are probably still experiencing the same results as before however, away it is a lot harder to gain a positive result with the same tactic if you aren't one of the bigger teams in your league. This creates a situation where you can split the league into 2 very different views: home and away.

At home you will still have good results if you got them before the new patch however it is nearly impossible (imo) to win consistantly and convincingly away.

Here's an example to try to back up my point:

With my Everton team i finished 2nd in season one with patch 9.2.0, but since the new season i have patched up, and even though my home form has been slightly dissapointing, my away form has been terrible:

(9.2.0 Season)

http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=03152009161044.jpg

As you can see i won 15 games out of 19 at home whereas i won 12 out of 19 away, which is pretty decent for a 6th place predicted team

(9.3.0 Season)

http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=03152009161235.jpg

Now you can see that at home i have won 7 out of 10, however now away i have only won 1 out of 9

I'm not the only one either as a search in the forums will tell you.

So please vote and tell SI whether you think this is a positive, neutral or negative feature they have included

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"So please vote and tell SI whether you think this is a positive, neutral or negative feature they have included"

Please vote what? I totally reject your premis. Are you HammerX000 in disguise - making an erroneous assumption and refusing to open your mind?

I don't find winning away to be a problem. Yes I adapt my tactics according to the opposition and venue, as any decent manager does. However, this doesn't require radically different formations and huge changes; I tweak my tactic according to circumstances, both before and during every game. All real managers do this; the idea of employing one tactic throughout a season or career is utterly unrealistic in real life, so should be in the game.

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I'm using just one tactic and I'm a newly promoted club in the Brazilian Serie B and although my home record is better than my away record (which makes sense), compared to the rest of the league my away record is good. On home games only I would be 6th, on away games only I would be 4th.

It makes sense that you should adjust your tactics when playing away but with a balanced tactic it is possible to play well enough home and away, saying that you should expect to have a better home record than away record.

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I'm finding my team plays better as a whole if I only do minor tweaks. Admittedly I do have an excellent team at the mo, but I only lost one match all season (to some local rivals), and I only really adjusted for pitch length, and occasionally weather.

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I'm using just one tactic and I'm a newly promoted club in the Brazilian Serie B and although my home record is better than my away record (which makes sense), compared to the rest of the league my away record is good. On home games only I would be 6th, on away games only I would be 4th.

It makes sense that you should adjust your tactics when playing away but with a balanced tactic it is possible to play well enough home and away, saying that you should expect to have a better home record than away record.

I have tried playing with 2 different tactics away, and have been completely steamrolled with both of them, i tried a balancing tactic and this just meant the game ended 0-0 with me having no shots, and when i tried the counter attacking tactic or the last 2 games i have lost 2-0 and 3-0 to low teams. My problem really seems to be creating chances though as i have only scored a few goals away from home and conceding doesn't really seem to be a problem.

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The demise of the Super Tactic is a good thing. It's not totally expired, with the corner bug, but it's certainly coughing up blood and cancelling its holiday plans.

haha love the analagy. but yes agree about the demise fo the super tactic

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i used the sexy football tactic post patch and have had two undefeated seasons now one with Arsenal the other with Bohemians of Ireland. Apart from buying pretty well I didn't do much other than use the same tactic over and over again so I'm not sure if the days of the super tactic are really over.

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  • SI Staff

I dont actually know what the OP is referring to. We havent done anything to inhibit people using a different tactic for different situations. As long as the tactic(s) are sensible, it shouldnt be a problem.

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"So please vote and tell SI whether you think this is a positive, neutral or negative feature they have included"

Please vote what? I totally reject your premis. Are you HammerX000 in disguise - making an erroneous assumption and refusing to open your mind?

I don't find winning away to be a problem. Yes I adapt my tactics according to the opposition and venue, as any decent manager does. However, this doesn't require radically different formations and huge changes; I tweak my tactic according to circumstances, both before and during every game. All real managers do this; the idea of employing one tactic throughout a season or career is utterly unrealistic in real life, so should be in the game.

REAL managers usually change tactics at half time. not during a game!

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REAL managers usually change tactics at half time. not during a game!

That is utter tripe. They are continually making minor tweaks to their team. You never see Martin O'neill or Ferguson sit in silence for a whole half and not say a word to their team do you?

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If you're referring to "one tactic" being a default formation & slider setup for the team and individuals, then I actually only use "one tactic" myself.

If however you're referring to the use of the "one tactic", without making any changes whatsoever during a match or throughout the course of the season, then I'm afraid I disagree with the OP entirely. It's far from realistic and reading between the lines, it smacks of a return to the "Diablo" type tactics that made the game pretty pointless as a football management simulation.

It's still possible to use "one tactic" but I would recommend that you may need to change your slider settings from time to time. This is exactly what I do. There's nothing difficult about what I do and is based purely on what's happening during matches. Some people prefer to make these changes by making a "set" of tactics for approaches like Shut up Shop, Defensive, Control, Standard, Attacking, Gung-Ho...etc...etc... I personally prefer to make simple and slight changes to my single "core" tactic, changing passing from "mixed" to "direct", or tempo from "mixed" to "high", with the sliders.

I think that half the problem on the forums is that people either expect to make a tactic, or download one and it to work immediately, or with any team and players. Quite simply, there's far more to the game than a tactic or tactics. Tactics however are always going to be the area of the game where fingers are pointed when things don't work out. When people I know have complained about tactical problems, in actuality, it's more often that they have the wrong players, they're poor at team talks, or they're simply trying to ask their players to do something rediculous. The biggest reason for most tactics "failing" when SI release a new patch, is because it's main strengths were more likely based on weakness' or exploits in the match engine, which have now been fixed.

I've posted about my own "approach" to playing FM with a lower league club recently on the T&T Forum. My "approach" is based around building squads around a particular tactic, rather than the reverse. You can argue all day about "how good" one tactic may be against another, and we all have our own preferences and favorites. The point is, a singular tactic alone isn't going to win you matches. You need to bring in or use the right players with the right attributes to play in each position or role. You need to be sensible with your team-talks and media handling. So long as you get a grip of these and other areas, you could actually take one of the pre-programmed "default" tactics, build everything else around it, without ever needing to make many "tweaks" to the settings and still be successful.

One thing I trully hope never happens to Football Manager, is that they eventually relent to those clamouring for a "super" tactic. I agree with some ideas surrounding improvements that could be implemented to the tactical side of the game, but dumbing things down too much would spell the end of my interest in the game.

It's just that sort of dumbing down to make everything "easy" that ended in me quitting Ultima Online, having first started as a beta tester and playing for nearly seven years. When EA took over, they immediately began to pander to the minority by giving them "instant" full stat or "rapid gain" characters, instead of having to earn them, amongst many other detrimental changes.

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This phenomenon is nothing new. For at least three versions, the AI has sort of "cracked" tactics- or at least, tactics appear less effective over time. The AI reassesses your team every six months or so, and adjusts it's tactics accordingly- it will often go more defensive, or use harder tackling. You'll only need to tweak your tactics a little accordingly.

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One thing I trully hope never happens to Football Manager, is that they eventually relent to those clamouring for a "super" tactic.

From my observations I'd say that since 'diablo' SI have been consistently working very hard on the ME to eliminate any possibility of 'supertactics'. They've brought in the likes of wwfan to identify and counter any hints of such exploits, and every version/patch they get that bit closer. There's no way it would return.

Sure, as you say, there are things they could do to clarify tactical tools such as the sliders, and possibly crank up the hints given by the assman and generally make intructions more logical and intuitive, but that's a completely different issue to the nonsense of an unrealistic 'one-(super)tactic'.

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Can't use the same tactic throughout the season? Call me crazy but from my experiences so far, you can. Sort of anyway, depending on the relative strength of your team.

A mediocre team will need to have more tactical options than a top of the table one. If your side is good, it's your opponents who will have more to worry about tactically than you. I have a Spartak Moscow save and I play the same way everywhere, except in the Champs League because the level is totally different there obviously. Even then, when playing a top European side at home I stick to what my team knows best. In another save, my team is tipped for relegation and I have to tweak more especially against strong sides.

I have another save game where I manage a Belgian amateur team and yes, I do have two tactics.

So I say, 1 tactic or 10 tactics it all depends on which team you are managing. I voted "Hasn't affected me/not noticed" by the way.

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Sorry if i wasn't being completely clear but part of my point is that one week i'm playing Man City, a similar club in terms of reputation now although better player, and i will comfortably win 3-1 at home while dominating but the next week i'll play Ipswich away and loose 2-0 while having only 3 shots and being totally outplayed.

I just don't think that there should be such a contrast between your home form and your away form as generally (i know there are a few exceptions) if a team is in form, like Aston Villa earlier in the season (IRL) then they will play the same at home as away and be successful but to do this in FM your form counts for nothing and it seems like your team or the game has no concept of form as this is more important then if you are playing home or away

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From my observations I'd say that since 'diablo' SI have been consistently working very hard on the ME to eliminate any possibility of 'supertactics'. They've brought in the likes of wwfan to identify and counter any hints of such exploits, and every version/patch they get that bit closer. There's no way it would return.

Sure, as you say, there are things they could do to clarify tactical tools such as the sliders, and possibly crank up the hints given by the assman and generally make intructions more logical and intuitive, but that's a completely different issue to the nonsense of an unrealistic 'one-(super)tactic'.

no i'm not talking about supertactics, i know that if you beat Stoke one week then you shouldn't expect to beat Man Utd the next but its sort of the other way round that if you dominated Man Utd one week at home then you would probably expect to beat Stoke away whereas in FM it seems it is easier to beat Man Utd at home then Stoke away which shouldn't really be the case

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I've played with the same tactics with my Newcastle team and I've managed to have success. I would say I do sometimes 'go defensive' towards the end of a game but if the other side is going for it that makes perfect sense.

Saying that a bog-standard 4-4-2 will struggle against certain tactics. And the whole 'away' thing I don't agree with, if anything some of my better results have come away from home and my H/A comparison isn't too far off. By the sounds of it we're getting too close to reality (big teams occasionally coming unstuck away) and people don't seem to like it!

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Ok so FM is about realism. Still, in RL how often do you see a team changing an entire tactical system EACH match, as I see that SI is trying to force the users to do, in order to get decent results.

Yeah sure, real life teams often play more defensive away, but they don't go from a basic 4-4-2 at home to a 5-3-2 away, or from a 3 defender system at home to a 4 defender system away (oh and btw, 3 defender systems in FM are suicidal). And besides, I've been watching the AI teams in my league and they pretty much ALWAYS use the same system, home and away, and they get the same kind of results, so why this is different for human controlled teams ? Why doesn't the AI also need to change its tactics each match ?

Playing more defensively away should be covered in FM by simply moving the slider accordingly not being constantly forced to change the tactic system before every match.

I've been reading the forum for long enough to already know the answer I'll recieve:

"Nobody is forcing you to change the system from match to match, you can simply pull a bit back an extra midfielder or [insert tactical advice here] and your team will play much better".

to make it short:

1) RL team don't change the tactical formation each match n order to get constant results, so why is this different in FM ?

2) Why do the 3 defender formations suck in FM so bad, especially since FM 08 ? lots of RL teams use it and don't get literally trashed on the wings when defending (yes, yes i know, i've set my wingers to be more defensive, less forward runs, but no result)

3) Why the AI teams use the same system, home and away, without suffering the same consequences as a human controlled team does ? (i.e. getting pwned in most away matches, if using the home tactic)

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I've used the same tactic for the first two seasons, winning the double both seasons and only losing once (grrr...) in the second season with Juventus.

I think some people are just looking for any excuse to blame on their lack of success.

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Sorry for double post. One more thing: even if you manage to get some success using the same tactic, after half a season or an entire season, you still have to change it as the AI teams will "learn" your tactic, be more aware of it, and thus counter the heck out of it. Sure, someone could say this is realistic, and i agree, but this shouldn't be the case for top teams. Here's my case: I win the league one season, with my team plying very good and pleasant to watch football. The next season i struggle even vs most of the bottom teams, especially when away.

how is this possible ? My players are young, have more experience, and more skills than in the last season but they play worse ?

P.S: only one first 11 player was replaced in the summer break, so no, leaving players are not the issue.

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Sorry for double post. One more thing: even if you manage to get some success using the same tactic, after half a season or an entire season, you still have to change it as the AI teams will "learn" your tactic, be more aware of it, and thus counter the heck out of it. Sure, someone could say this is realistic, and i agree, but this shouldn't be the case for top teams. Here's my case: I win the league one season, with my team plying very good and pleasant to watch football. The next season i struggle even vs most of the bottom teams, especially when away.

how is this possible ? My players are young, have more experience, and more skills than in the last season but they play worse ?

P.S: only one first 11 player was replaced in the summer break, so no, leaving players are not the issue.

There is no such thing as the AI "learning" your tactic. As to your second season syndrome, it depends. Firstly, which team are you managing and when you won the league were you favourites to win it or did you overachieve?

If you overachieved then no surprise, because by the second season the rest of the league will play differently against you. If you weren't favourites to win the league your opposition will view you as less of a threat so will be less defensive against you. But after winning the league, the AI managers takes notice of your team and play more defensively because you are now genuine contenders. It's a bit harder to play against teams that are more defensive so you're not doing so well.

I would suggest playing a bit more attacking and try to sign one or two more players who are better than the ones you currently have.

By the way, you don't have to make huge changes for away games. Some minor tweaking is usually enough. Huge changes between matches are very, very bad for your team anyway. And watch your morale. A team with poor morale will not play well.

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  • SI Staff
This phenomenon is nothing new. For at least three versions, the AI has sort of "cracked" tactics- or at least, tactics appear less effective over time. The AI reassesses your team every six months or so, and adjusts it's tactics accordingly- it will often go more defensive, or use harder tackling. You'll only need to tweak your tactics a little accordingly.

Myth.

:)

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Myth.

:)

I sure hope this is the truth, as that was the exact thing that i had in mind before making the above post.

@ macdyne: overachievers. Sure, lots of factors may have influenced my second season results (very bad morale for example was just one of them, or injury crisis - but let's not go there), but it's extremely frustrating seeing my team being dominated some times by other teams that have obvious weaker players than mine, it's like i'm trying to say that 10 (my team) is more than 5 (relegation candidate), but someone is telling me "no, 5 can some times be more than 10".

Hope you understand what i meant :)

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Why not? Surely having the AI mine the data obtained from your previous matches might help. Oh, if the ME wasn't deterministic it wouldn't help right?

To my understanding the AI doesn't do this data mining. I think the AI decides what tactics to use against you based partly on your team season starting prediction and partly based on current form. This is reflected in the prematch odds. That's why even if your team is weaker you will get shorter odds when your form is good.

This is just a speculation on my part based on my observation so I could be mistaken though...

We should get someone more knowledgeable to confirm whether this is true or not.

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@ macdyne: overachievers. Sure, lots of factors may have influenced my second season results (very bad morale for example was just one of them, or injury crisis - but let's not go there), but it's extremely frustrating seeing my team being dominated some times by other teams that have obvious weaker players than mine, it's like i'm trying to say that 10 (my team) is more than 5 (relegation candidate), but someone is telling me "no, 5 can some times be more than 10".

Hope you understand what i meant :)

Confirmed, 2nd season syndrome. Your opposition now takes you seriously and are more careful against you. You're going to have to change the way you play. And yes, I completely understand your frustrations... Happens to all of us.

Have you read the TT&F document in the tactics forum yet? If you haven't you should.

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Having slightly different away tactics have also been a good idea, in my opinion. At home I usually play a 442 with direct passes at a high pace. That doesn't always work away from home, where I now usually play a slower game in 451. It's not that unusual, a manager like Arsene Wenger usually plays 442, but has used 451 for difficult away games and European games quite often.

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  • SI Staff
To my understanding the AI doesn't do this data mining. I think the AI decides what tactics to use against you based partly on your team season starting prediction and partly based on current form. This is reflected in the prematch odds. That's why even if your team is weaker you will get shorter odds when your form is good.

This is just a speculation on my part based on my observation so I could be mistaken though...

We should get someone more knowledgeable to confirm whether this is true or not.

Yes its pretty much the way it works. They will assess their chances of winning/losing and make adjustments accordingly.

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I only use one tactic and I have alot of success with every team I manage. Fair enough it might take longer to build a team and a tactic with one club when compared to another but that's life, Ferguson was nearly relegated early in his Man United career but look at him now. Stop the blame game.

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To my understanding the AI doesn't do this data mining. I think the AI decides what tactics to use against you based partly on your team season starting prediction and partly based on current form. This is reflected in the prematch odds. That's why even if your team is weaker you will get shorter odds when your form is good.

This is just a speculation on my part based on my observation so I could be mistaken though...

We should get someone more knowledgeable to confirm whether this is true or not.

It was ascertained during the lifetime of FM08 that in previous incarnations of CM/FM the AI would base its tactics against you on your pre-season odds for the whole season. However, more recently the AI has been re-calculating your match odds much more frequently. Thus, if you are progressing up the table, pretty soon the AI opposition will see you as favourites and play more cautiously.

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Confirmed, 2nd season syndrome. Your opposition now takes you seriously and are more careful against you. You're going to have to change the way you play. And yes, I completely understand your frustrations... Happens to all of us.

Have you read the TT&F document in the tactics forum yet? If you haven't you should.

Heh, I'm reading it for the last 2 seasons (wasn't the first one meant for FM 2007 ? can't remember exactly, but there sure was one for FM 08), but i have to admit that i'm not always following each advice from it (sometimes because I don't consider it applies in my case, and sometimes because i'm just plain lazy to redo my tactic/individual orders for just one opponent)

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@Freeman21: I don't follow everything either. I'm also very lazy actually.

@Sussex Hammer: You can. If your team is very, very strong that is. I have a Spartak Moscow game and in the Russian league I always use the same tactic home and away. Very successful. In the Champions League however, I can't do this...

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I thought that reranking took place leading to other teams changing how they played you?

That's right - it's what I just said.

But of course, realistically, both managers will examine their opponents strengths and weaknesses and plan accordingly - there's no contradiction there.

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